This is page numbers 30 - 77 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was going.

Topics

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I'm not satisfied with the response I'm getting from the Minister. I was glad that my colleague from Deh Cho asked for this investigation into these allegations. They are serious allegations, as the Minister indicates. I would rather an independent committee from outside the system undertake this review. That's what we asked for. Maybe a committee of three. People who are knowledgeable. This is not a committee. In the statement the Minister made this afternoon, she did not mention a committee. I was appalled, Mr. Chairman, by the actions of the Minister.

This isn't an independent committee, it's an investigator. On top of that, Mr. Chairman, I have concerns about the investigator who the Minister has retained. It is my understanding that the investigator who is being retained by the department to do this work has a standing offer with the department. So, how could this independent investigator be impartial when he has a standing offer with the Department of Social Services? I can't see this person she appointed being impartial. How can you consider someone who takes on a number of projects for the department to be impartial, when he works on an ongoing basis? There, again, I don't see any impartiality with the person who is being appointed.

The information I have indicates that the person who is being appointed has ties, a close relationship, with the department. I have concerns about that. I would like to hear the comments of the Minister before I continue, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Madam Minister.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I respond to Mr. Zoe's question, I would like to bring in a witness, please.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Do we the concurrence of the committee that the Minister bring in the witness?

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, escort the witness into the room please. Thank you. For the record, Madam Minister, would you introduce the witness?

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me is Ken Lovely, my deputy minister.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. There was a question directed to the honourable Minister and she wanted to bring in the witness before responding to the question. Madam Minister, are you able to respond to the question now?

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my knowledge, this individual who we have hired doesn't have a standing offer with the department. However, he has worked in the past for us four times. Our department has also turned him down twice. Other proposals that he responded to or made a proposal to, we had a call.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, if there is no standing offer in place, I am still of the opinion that this particular individual has a relationship with the department. As the Minister indicated, in previous years, they have utilized this particular person and he has done a bit of work for our government, particularly Social Services. There is a strong relationship that is there. I am of the opinion that I can't see this individual being impartial.

Mr. Chairman, while I have the deputy minister here with the Minister, I would like to pose the same question. Why did the department not strike an independent committee, as my colleague from Deh Cho strongly suggested, to investigate these serious allegations, rather than going with one independent investigator? I would like to pose that same question to the deputy minister.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. The question is directed to the deputy minister, Ken Lovely.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Lovely

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The primary reason for going with one investigator was partially an interpretation of what was said in the House. It was our view, in discussions with the Minister, that what was most important was having an independent investigation, not necessarily having an independent investigation by a committee. Therefore, we proceeded in discussions with the Minister to seek an individual to do it. Thank you.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, when this issue was raised, my colleague from Deh Cho specifically asked for an independent committee. I am sure the deputy minister's review of the Hansard was on page 2080, when my colleague from Deh Cho specifically asked the Minister to strike an independent committee to investigate this serious allegation by the Greenway Holdings subsequent to the contract being terminated by the department. The response from the Minister was, "Yes." Why did the deputy minister, as head of the department, advise the Minister otherwise?

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Minister.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Upon the completion of the draft of the terms of reference, I did go to the Member of Deh Cho's office to consult with him with on the terms of reference. At that point, he did say he had no problem or that was all right and we went on talking about the custom adoption bill. I did consult before the terms of reference was finally approved. To address your question, Mr. Zoe, the conversation between myself and my deputy minister took place and we did have a problem about an independent committee. There is a board of inquiry, but the word "committee" itself was a problem.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Zoe.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, it is irrelevant what the Minister is saying. On page 2080 in the Hansard, the Minister said yes to an independent committee. She comes into the House today with a Minister's statement with something else, totally different from what she committed to. Why did she change her views? I don't feel that an individual or firm can be impartial. I would rather see a committee or board of inquiry. I don't necessarily care what phrase you use. I would say a committee of some sort, perhaps a three person committee to undertake this work and report back to the Minister on their findings. That was what I was anticipating. I was glad that my colleague had raised that issue. I was hoping to see that in the Minister's

statement today, but it shocked me by her appointing an individual as an investigator and not a committee.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I said earlier, in answer to the honourable Member for Deh Cho, I went to his office to try and find out exactly if the terms of reference for the person to do an inquiry would be fine with him. He said he was in agreement with it. As well, I would like you to know that the contract that is in question was for $200,000. Even if we started two or three people to have an inquiry it would cost much more.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

The information that the Minister is providing to us is irrelevant to me, because I am not privy to the private discussions that the Minister has behind closed doors. In our discussion in the House, a commitment was made to my colleague from Deh Cho that this was going to take place and I looked forward to it. That an independent committee investigate the serious allegations that were made. Now, the whole thing is changed. It is not the independent committee that the Minister committed herself to. That's where I see the problem. I don't see this as impartial, with the method the Minister is using.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

General comments. Mr. Koe.

Minister's Statement 6-12(6): Terms Of Reference - Hay River Group Home ContractTabled Document 7-12(6): Terms Of Reference: Independent Review Of Contract Termination - Hay River Group Home
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Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a couple of items I wish to raise. The whole issue of the contract is one thing, the termination of the contract, the role of the contractor and the department is one issue. I, for one, don't believe the issue of terminating the contract is an issue I would concern myself with. I think there are several major missing issues that we have to discuss here. I was hoping there would be some indication of those in the terms of reference for the review, but they're not there.

The first one is the primary purpose of a home such as this. One of the roles and responsibilities of the department is the care of our children. Our honourable colleague from Yellowknife North made a very good statement today about the care of children, who cares for them and who speaks for them. That is one of the issues that is missing here.

Another one is the role and responsibilities of the homes we have, the group homes, receiving homes, whatever names we use, and our foster homes. There are contracts for all of these and agreements between the department and the people who provide care in whatever form and whatever type of home we use. I'm very familiar with the roles of foster parents, and I've passed these on to the various officials in your department over time because when I first became an MLA and also when we were travelling across the north with the Special Committee on Health and Social Services, we had lots of presentations and people talked to us privately.

Some of the issues are the role the foster parents play and the role the department plays. Both, hopefully, are on the same plane. The whole purpose is to look after the children who have been placed in the department's custody. The other issue, the third issue, is the whole role of Social Services employees and their supervisors. None of these are in the terms of reference tabled today.

The terms of reference are very specific, did the department have grounds to terminate the contract. Obviously, they had grounds or they wouldn't have done it, so why are we going through this whole investigation to determine that? The regional supervisor signed a letter of termination. Obviously, he was supported by the regional superintendent, the deputy minister and the Minister. So, I don't understand why we are wasting time to go through the chronological events of why the contract was terminated.

What I would like to see is some of the issues I have mentioned. It is my understanding that some of the obligations of social workers and the department is that there have to be designated people responsible for each home. There has to be a contact person for each resident. There has to be a program plan for each person put in care. In that plan, there is included some kind of assessment and some kind of treatment program. Both, whoever is caring for the individual and the department, would hopefully have open communication because they are both responsible for the care of that child.

Some of the complaints I've had across the north, and it is just not this particular case in Hay River, I hear complaints across the north that a lot of these things are not done. We know why. We know that social service workers are overworked. We know that in small communities, the worker is responsible for a wide range of programs.

We also know that kids, once they're apprehended, are dropped off, any hour of the day, in a foster home setting, usually with no history. The worker drops the kid off and the foster parent all of a sudden has full responsibility for this person. They have no medical history, no educational history, no history of behaviour or anything and then they're held responsible. If anything goes wrong, who gets the blame? I don't see any of these things in these terms of reference. I would like to see them.

The whole issue of roles and investigation into the roles of foster parents should be in here. Investigation of the roles of social workers should be in here. We should know the parties and what they're obligated to do, and whether they are doing it. I would like to hear from the Minister or her deputy on some of the comments I made and how they're going to address those issues.