Absolutely.

All the time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I will need assistants.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As they say, better late than never, but on my immediate right is Mr. Gamble who is the deputy minister of Transportation, a growing, efficient department.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday, some of the Members talked about the federal government plans to phase out the automatic weather observation system in the near future, as well as the remote communities outlets, RCOs, in this part of the country. In fact, according to my understanding, their plan was to phase out the observer communicators to replace them with automatic weather observation systems, AWOS, and with remote communication outlets, RCOs.

According to my information, Mr. Chairman, this was done in the Edmonton area and, Mr. Chairman, the system proved unreliable about 60 per cent of the time. Mr. Chairman, in the Kitikmeot region, the communities are scattered, and, in most cases, the only means of transportation in the wintertime is by air, of course. Medical evacuations are done by air. It is a long distance from here to Cambridge Bay. Mr. Chairman, in the past 20 years -- also according to my information -- there have been about 100 people in the NWT perish because of the weather; especially in winter when the daylight is very short. Mr. Chairman, I don't think the federal government should wait until an aircraft crash occurs in this part of the country. I would urge the honourable Minister of Transportation and the government of this particular jurisdiction to try and convince the government that in the northern part of the country electronics are not reliable. Also, Mr. Chairman, if we replace the observer communicators with the automatic weather observation systems or with remote communication outlets, we would be losing some very important jobs. We don't have too many jobs available in this part of the country and I would, like my colleagues who have spoken to the issue, urge the honourable Minister to communicate with the federal government that what they propose to do is not acceptable in the north. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to assure the honourable Member from Pelly Bay that we concur entirely with him on this issue, that we have advised the federal government and the aviation industry that we do, and that we are working aggressively to pursue any replacement of flight service stations with a CARS replacement. While that may not be a perfect scenario, it certainly has worked very effectively over the years in other territorial communities. That is our position, Mr. Chairman. We concur with the Member.

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, I have a question with regard to what we were dealing with yesterday. This is going to be directed to the Minister of Transportation. I would like to thank him for the excellent job he has done up to today. I would like to point out that the communities are different, in size and population. Some of the communities have more people, some have fewer people. The smaller communities do not have larger scheduled flights going in to these communities as often as they have in the larger communities. For instance, in my community the airport is very small and because the airport is small only smaller aircraft can utilize the airstrip. We have larger scheduled flights going in on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

Another concern I wanted to raise with the Minister of Transportation; of the aircraft going in to Lake Harbour and smaller communities like Lake Harbour, a lot of aircraft that are being used are older models. I would like some consideration put into upgrading airports and airstrips.

I understand that part of this is the responsibility of the federal government, under the Arctic airports, but I would like to convey this message to the Department of Transportation. I want to know if our airport can be upgraded. We have asked for this before, for the future. I understand that in 1997 they are going to be upgrading the airport in Lake Harbour. But we have a lot of problems in our community now. When trying to get extra food for the community store; a lot of times the plane is not able to make it on time. As well, other goods are needed in the community, but because aircraft are too small, they are not able to carry all the goods and supplies that are needed for the community.

It is fortunate that we have not had any major accidents on our airstrip. Mr. Chairman, I will be asking for support to upgrade our airstrip in the near future. Sometimes, because, of the funding being cut, we think that we might not be able to get this airport and other airports in the communities upgraded. There is also the problem of passengers trying to make it home; sometimes they are not able to make it home on a certain flight because of the airstrip being too small.

I am concerned with Lake Harbour in particular and I just wanted to bring this up, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I made a lot of comments yesterday during committee of the whole. The Minister started to reply, he said I will start with the easy ones first. While he was still replying we ran out of time, so if we could pick it up there.

I don't really want to reiterate what I said, but basically I talked about a concern with the highway maintenance operation. I said that the highway maintenance operation is going to be dropping quite drastically -- by $1.54 million -- and it will have a significant impact in my area. I also stated that the total sum of the department dropped by $1.082 million in 1994-95. That is the total that was dropped from previous years and the total amount dropped in the highway maintenance operation is $1.58 million. So there is a difference of $498,000 that went into other parts of this department's operations. If you are looking at the revised, it is still a significant amount that has gone into the other parts of the department. That is the way I read it.

I was concerned about it because if you are cutting back in one area to boost another area -- and I don't know if that is going on in this department -- the people I represent wouldn't like it at all and I have to express that concern here. Carrying on with the exact impact that it may have in the communities; the highway system, the way it is built in the area, is a gravel road and it cost huge sums of money to build it. It is an investment that this government has made over the years in the highway system.

The cutbacks in the level of maintenance have never been done before and I am very concerned because the impact of less maintenance on the highway...I was involved in highway maintenance in my area prior to being in the House and I know what kind of work it takes to actually keep these highway systems in good condition. They need to work it all the time with heavy equipment, with graders in the summertime, whenever it rains you have to make sure that you repair it right away or the road will further deteriorate; it will get rough, it will have a washboard effect. With heavy trucks going on it in that condition, it will deteriorate the road very quickly. There needs to be a high level of maintenance on this highway system to keep it in good shape.

If, by these cutbacks, you are going to drop the level of maintenance to the highway, the highway will surely deteriorate to the point where if we are going to keep a highway system, we are going to have to invest huge sums of money in the future to bring it back up to the standards that we have today.

There is a safety factor as well. If we let the highways deteriorate into a washboard effect it is going to cause accidents. That is one concern that I have: the threat to human life by unsafe highways. There have to be certain standards that this government sets. If they are going to drop the amount of money for maintaining the highway, there have to be certain standards of safety that this department has to meet for the travelling public. We use the highway system quite a bit. The Minister stated statistics of 30 per cent and 10 per cent. You have to look beyond that; there are human people in those percentages who use this highway and their safety is a factor.

The other area of concern about this maintenance cut was for the tourist industry that is in my constituency. The highway system is used by a lot of tourists who come into my area; they go into the mountains to the Nahanni National Park and to different parts of that part of the country, to go to other communities. It is a source of income to communities in that area and the businesses that cater to the travelling public. I am afraid that less highway maintenance might have an impact on the tourism in my area.

There are different businesses that have contracts obtained through public bid as well as negotiated contracts and already I know that these contractors have different provisions within their contracts for how they make money. Some of it has already begun to change. For instance, the fuel that they use -- they use quite a bit of fuel when they maintain the highway -- has been taken over by the government now so that there will be less cost to government, I believe. The contracts have already changed. Some of the negotiated contracts and the companies who have got contracts through public bid say they finance the heavy equipment through contracts. If their contracts are going to get cut back, they might have to lose some of the heavy equipment they're presently financing. I'm afraid that's going to have an impact on their businesses as well as on the people they employ. In the long run, there are going to be impacts on business and on employment of the people in that area. This cutback impacts a lot of people and I have a concern about it.

The final concern I have is about the winter roads. I wanted to ask questions today in question period but we ran out of time. On March 15th, the highways into Nahanni River, Trout Lake and Jean Marie River are going to be shut down. Around that time of the year, it doesn't snow that much in my part of the country and the roads are still usable until the end of the month; for two extra weeks. How much money is the government going to save by shutting down the road two weeks early? The road is there already, and if there is no snow on it, it is cold enough and it is frozen, can the people from these communities continue to use these roads or is the government planning to put barricades up so it makes it impossible for people to use the highway?

I guess the question here is, is it possible, if the weather is cold enough and it doesn't snow, if a community like Trout Lake would be able to use the highway until it is impassable? Likewise for Nahanni Butte and Jean Marie River. There are plans to bring in provisions to stock up the stores. Jean Marie River has been talking about it and they may be running out of time if March 15th is the deadline. We invested in opening the road and spent a lot of money doing it. But, if the winter road is there and there are good conditions, can they continue to use it? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's always difficult when you have to make cuts. It's a little out of character for this government, historically. We're in restraint, just like everybody else around the country, so there has to be some rationale for the cuts and I'll explain that in a moment. I do want to say that it is difficult but somebody has to make decisions and in this department, that ultimately lies with me.

I understand some of the concerns Mr. Antoine has raised and will try to answer them. Let me take the easy one first and that is the Fort Simpson airport. Mr. Antoine expressed some concern with the transfer about whether the services would be less or reduced. We're reasonably confident that the arrangement we have come to have with the federal government will, at a minimum, ensure the current level of service. We're reasonably confident that, with our hands-on experience with running Arctic B and C airports, with a little optimism, we might even be able to run them a little better.

On the issue of the overall cuts and Mr. Antoine's fiscal analysis of the situation, I should make it clear that the overall cuts to the department were $2.6 million. Out of that $2.6 million, $1.5 million came out of highways. There was forced growth of $1.4 million in relationship to maintenance on airstrips that wasn't there before. I feel it is important to clarify that. Out of the $1.5 million for highways, Mr. Antoine is correct, there was a significant amount of money taken out of his riding, but it was also taken out of others because of traffic flow, the length of the road system, et cetera.

I don't question anything that Mr. Antoine has said about whether it is going to deteriorate in terms of levels of maintenance et cetera that has been there historically. We're going to try for that not to happen but time will tell. I was in a position, as other Ministers were, where I had to take measures to cut. I want to assure Mr. Antoine that any cuts that took place in the highways was not placed in another budget. Forced growth was the overall factor in determining the overall budget.

On the issue of winter roads -- and that is an issue that has been addressed by other colleagues -- again, that was a decision we had to make with respect to cuts. I will say that the primary reason was to look for savings because that was what was requested of us. However, there are discussions under way, and they have been going on for the last two years, I believe, with Fisheries with respect to environmental considerations when the ice roads deteriorate. That was a factor, though not the principle factor in looking at reductions for winter roads.

Mr. Zoe asked earlier today about whether people could still use the roads after March 15th. I would say that this government wouldn't sanction use of the ice roads. However, at the same time, I don't believe we would be in a position to stop people. I think that would be a fair statement.

I've instructed the department, because I understand the importance of adequate, cost-effective transportation to the small communities, to monitor very closely the maintenance of this highway this summer. If there is any way, in the future, that I can improve the level of maintenance, I'm prepared to do it. Those are my comments at this time, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one concern. My second question was already dealt with by John Ningark. There seems to be no money allocated for docks and breakwaters. The budget seems more directed to the creation of bridges. (Translation ends) For the past few years, we've had severe weather conditions in early and late fall, especially in the eastern Arctic where we don't have any highway systems. A number of outfitters and fishermen have lost their vessels due to high waters. I don't see anything in the budget to address this problem. Especially in my riding, tourism is a viable business for outfitters, as well as Fisheries. Although, in one of my communities, the breakwater is under construction.

There are many other smaller communities, including in the Keewatin, that don't have any docking facilities or breakwaters to at least try to accommodate the vessel owners when we do have severe storms in early and late fall. There has been a number of boats that have been lost. Some of these vessels were purchased by this government through Economic Development and Tourism. Because I think we are going through some climate change, the weather in the eastern Arctic has changed dramatically. I am somewhat disappointed not having seen any dollars allocated to what I call marine services. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would say to the honourable Member that while there are no significant dollars in the O and M budget, we have managed to shift some capital dollars in terms of trying to develop marine services in the Nunavut and Arctic areas. I think the Member is correct. Over the last 10, 15 or 20 years, we have spent an average of somewhere between $15 million and $20 million on an annual basis on road development in the western Arctic. We have spent significant money historically in trying to develop airports, if you want, in Nunavut. Clearly, in the coming years with the development of airstrips in to the western Arctic where they don't already have them, such as Nahanni Butte, Deline, or whether it's improvements to those airstrips, there is going to be a requirement for a closer look at equity in terms of the distribution of the dollars and where we put our money.

I am looking very carefully at that because I concur with the Member that we don't have a road system in the eastern Arctic. The theory behind it was that you would put airstrips into it. We are developing a comprehensive airstrip program in the west now. I believe by 1998, we will have airstrips in all communities except Mr. Zoe's...

---Laughter

...which we are endeavouring to look at, which Mr. Zoe knows full well.

(Microphone turned off)

Am I supposed to...

(Microphone turned off)

We are endeavouring to try and find resources to assess the marine development, whether it's breakwaters in Pangnirtung, or whether it is Gjoa Haven, Pelly Bay or other communities in the eastern Arctic. If you want to go back to the capital budget, you'll see that we have made some improvement -- by no means perfect, but some improvement -- and I am optimistic that in the coming years we will be able to improve that even more.

(Microphone turned off)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the Minister mentioned before, one of the only things that we have in the Nunavut area is the airstrips to get people from place to place. They are probably a few thousand years behind the western territories, who are very lucky to have highways to communities, winter roads and even paved highways over here. As the Minister knows, the CARS program, which I believe was the federal government's idea to assist to have the airport radios operating 24 hours a day, in some places has been cut severely, in some cases endangering airplanes to some degree. In my case, in my constituency of Pond Inlet, we used to have 24-hour radio operators who would assist the airplanes coming into the community. I understand the number of hours of operation has been cut and the airplane cannot utilize the weather reports and atmospheric conditions from the air radio operators. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if there has been any progress in terms of getting those air radio operators to go back to 24 hours to assist airplanes? Thank you.

I appreciate the Member's statements, and I certainly do recognize, coming from an eastern Arctic community, the vital importance of air safety and the absolute necessity to try to ensure that we get good, accurate, timely weather reports, particularly if you come from Rankin Inlet. So they tell me anyway.

Last year, the honourable Member did raise the issue about Pond Inlet, and I believe Clyde River was the other community where there had been a cutback. I believe at that time it was 40 hours work. Currently we are trying to negotiate for 65 hours, I believe. I stand to be corrected. I'd have to check my notes. We are trying to increase the hours of these CARS programs in the eastern Arctic communities that have them. These discussions have been going on for some time now. At this time, no, we have not come to a satisfactory arrangement, but we are still working on it very hard for that part of the country. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the response I got from the Minister that the department is still working towards getting resources so that those places where they rely on aircraft for transportation will be able to get 24-hour assistance to give the airplanes updated information on atmospheric information. I would like to thank the Minister for that ongoing work.

On the other hand, Pond Inlet is fast becoming a centre of Nunavut, if not the centre of the universe pretty soon, as the Minister stated earlier during the sitting. Pond Inlet does not have a jet airstrip but it is a centre for the north Baffin and it is unique in having very good weather. I doubt very much that in the last few years an airplane has been prohibited from going in to Pond Inlet due to the weather conditions. The Pond Inlet business community and the hamlet are interested in getting a jet airstrip. It would not be a lot of work. It would require an additional 2,000 feet, I believe, to extend the runway, and the community is willing to contribute some resources to that effect so that, in the event that jets could land there, it would give the aircraft companies another choice in the north Baffin. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if there's any process where, if the community is willing to contribute some resources for that kind of project, that sort of project could be assisted by the department? Thank you.

Well, to be very frank with the honourable Member and to be fair to him, I will say there is nothing in our long-term plans to make significant expansions to the Pond Inlet airstrip. That would come under capital, of course. I know this community well. It is a marvellous community; I lived there in 1975. If the community shows the kind of initiative that I know it can, I would be prepared to send in some of our people from Transportation to at least initiate discussions in relation to this issue. But, I would have to say that at the present time, there is nothing in the long-term plan to expand. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Minister for the response and would like to say that the community of Pond Inlet will shortly be asking the Minister's department to assist them in terms of planning and will let the government know their commitment of substantial resources. Even though the community of Pond Inlet is very poor, they are very willing to contribute, both in real resources and in kind, towards extending the runway. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few additional comments on marine programs. I know that the marine services...

With respect to the highway maintenance of winter roads, I think Mr. Zoe was in the room when I spoke to Mr. Antoine's concerns. I want to point out, the highway operations are somewhere around $20 million in this O and M budget, that $12.5 million or 51 per cent of it is allocated to highway maintenance. I think up until now we've done a reasonable job. And I believe yourself, Mr. Chairman, made some comments yesterday about that.

These are difficult times. You have to make cuts. Somebody has to make a decision about cuts. I made a decision. I've tried to apply equity to the cuts, based upon the percentages of where the budget is and the allocations it's in. I'm going to try my best in the coming months to try to bring it back up to the level that we want. But we're all living in difficult times, and I think most of the honourable Members, as well as Mr. Zoe, understand that.

We're going to evaluate the impact very carefully of the fact that there has been a slight reduction in highway maintenance.

On the question of docks, I would like to correct Mr. Zoe. The majority of docks are not in the west, they're in the eastern Arctic. I don't want to make comparisons, but the reality is the most sophisticated docks are in the west and it's only the last two or three years that there has been a significant shift in trying to provide some marine development for people in the eastern Arctic. Again, done on an equitable basis, I think, and trying to improve the marine infrastructure for people who utilize it like fishermen, hunters, et cetera.

On privatization of engineering services, at this stage I'm quite frankly not in favour of that. I think our engineering division does a bang-up job. Certainly, if you look at our capital projects, rarely, rarely do we lapse money. I think considering the amount of money that we have, we've done a reasonable job. Unless there are some real solid arguments for their inability to deliver in a cost-effective way, I would have a difficult time at this time supporting that. I think it's important that I be frank. Mr. Zoe wouldn't expect me to be anything else.

However, with that said, we're open-ended. The door isn't closed. If there is someone with a proposal who wants to come forward and can demonstrate to us that they can do the job, do it more efficiently, and more importantly do it more cost effectively, we're certainly going to look at it.

On negotiated contracts, I've stated on a number of occasions that it's my intention to continue on with negotiated contracts where the net benefits go to northerners and it can be clearly demonstrated that way. We will continue with that policy, I want to assure Mr. Zoe. But I've also said on a number of occasions, I don't see negotiated contracts as a never-ending thing. At some point, we all have to become competitive and at some point, we all have to gain the expertise necessary to compete in the market place; however, at this time I want to assure him that there will be a continuation of negotiated contracts. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There has been ongoing concern expressed by Fisheries and Oceans, particularly as it relates to the river crossings and some of the environmental concerns they have. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gamble tells me that in previous years the department was in fact charged, and then the charges were withdrawn. So it's kind of an ongoing discussion between Fisheries and Oceans and their environmental concerns, as it relates to the erosion of the river beds. That's really what my comments were with respect to that.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and a good chairman at that, if I may say so. We would be only too happy to share the information in relation to the disagreements or the disputes that have come forward between Transportation and Fisheries and Oceans. I will provide that to Mr. Zoe and probably to Mr. Antoine and others affected by the ice road reduction program. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just some comments about marine services. I know that in this department "marine" primarily means ferries, ferry crossings and the like, but I also know the Minister is keenly aware of the ocean being a lifeline in the Nunavut communities.

I would like to make two points: number one, I have, for years, believed that we should be able to achieve greater economies of scale working cooperatively with Greenland on resupply in the eastern Arctic. I want to publicly commend the Minister and his department for not only seeing that but for taking the initiative to visit Greenland and initiate high-level discussions with our neighbours about how cooperation might be mutually beneficial. I think there has been far too little cooperation between our government and the neighbouring circumpolar jurisdiction in recent years, and I'm delighted the Minister has taken this on. Anyone who thinks that it's extravagant or being done for anything but the best fiscal interests of the Government of the Northwest Territories is dead wrong.

Secondly, Mr. Chairman, the Minister, I believe, knows of my concerns about the apparent erosion of operation sealift, at least in my constituency. I don't really know if it's happening elsewhere. Mr. Chairman, for years our government has, I believe, supported one sealift, in cooperation with the Government of Canada and the Coast Guard, which is designed to put all our business into one contract so the best prices can be made available, not just to the government but to private people including the little people who order their supplies and perhaps their vehicles or a boat on the sealift. Over the years, Mr. Chairman, operation sealift has been eroded. There was a vessel called the Hancock Trader operated some years ago now by an enterprising individual who successfully stole quite a little bit of business away from the sealift operation. But the situation has gotten even more serious in recent years. There have been operators -- I call them "pirate operators" -- who have actively undermined operation sealift. I guess what alarms me, Mr. Chairman, is that it has come to my attention that agencies of our government have been using these unauthorized operators. For example, I will cite the Iqaluit Housing Authority which brought its materials and goods up to Iqaluit last year on a vessel other than the operation sealift contracted vessel.

There is another reason for concern about this, Mr. Chairman, and that is public safety and marine safety. I can do no more than cite the story of the barge that was, I believe, improperly secured and loaded by a company called Rock Lessard which was bringing its waste and scrap metal for the FOL contract south. This barge capsized en route to the south. I understand the accident was not reported as is required, even though the tons of scrap metal would probably constitute a marine hazard.

So, Mr. Chairman, I want to note my concern about these developments and urge the Minister and his officials to explore with the federal government -- I understand in their objectives they are looking at the devolution of certain federal marine programs -- in a cooperative manner how we might achieve the best economies of scale, both for the operation sealift and also for resupply in the eastern Arctic through Greenland.

If the Minister has a response I would be happy to hear it, Mr. Chairman, but I am mainly interested in making these comments on the record today. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will just make some quick, brief comments. I concur with the Member with respect to the erosion of operation sealift. We are working closely with Public Works and Services in an effort to try to resolve that. I believe the word he used was "pirating." I concur with that as well. At this time I am not able to tell you, not because I don't want to but because I haven't got the full information. We are working very closely with that because it is essential that we have a reasonable sealift at a reasonable price for the small operators as well as the large ones.

I appreciate the Member's comments with respect to the Greenland component. The first visit we made to Greenland was a technical visit made up of bureaucrats from Transportation and Public Works and Services. It was in an effort to look at the sealift operation and the POL products, et cetera.

What transpired was that we also found that the Greenland government is currently looking into the development of a significant airport program in building airports. I believe at the time Kuupik Kleist, who is the current Minister of Public Works and Transportation, indicated that there was somewhere in the range of about $200 million to build some airstrips in that area, and we agreed to provide them, at no cost and no charge, some technical advice on how they can perhaps build these airstrips in a more cost effective way. They were extremely pleased with our offer.

I also, of course -- knowing the entrepreneur in me -- indicated to them that perhaps there may be an opportunity for some northern business people to assist them and perhaps joint venture when they decide to move forward with these strips. There was clearly a sense of cooperation there, so I am optimistic that if this comes to pass and the dollars are there and the Department of Transportation can provide the Greenland government with significant technical expertise, that we may, in fact, manage to acquire some business for people who are in that field. Minister Kleist was in Yellowknife recently, and I am hopeful that we can take a small trade delegation, and others who may be interested, to Greenland in late May in an effort to -- not just, as Mr. Patterson said, to go and have a good time -- but try to perhaps secure some business for those people who are directly involved in it.

So I think this is an exciting initiative. There are large dollars involved. Yes, we are, on the front end, providing some free advice to them. I think that's good for us. It shows that Canadians and northern Canadians have some expertise in this field. So I think it's a laudable initiative and I'm hopeful that we will get an invitation some time in May. I would put together a contingency of people who are directly involved in that industry and others who are interested to go there and see if we can perhaps conclude an arrangement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Line By Line

Directorate

Mahsi. One of the directorate's key structural objectives is to negotiate with the federal government to implement more transportation programs on its behalf. I ask

the Minister whether or not there are any ongoing negotiations on the all-weather road between Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is an ongoing discussion as it relates to the possible joint initiatives with the federal government as it relates to overall roads. There are no specific discussions under way between Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk. Thank you.

One of the initiatives also in the transportation strategy was the extension of the Mackenzie Highway north from Wrigley to Inuvik. Can the Minister tell us where the negotiations of that project are at?

Again, we have been working very closely with a group which Mr. Pope has certainly been spokesperson for and of course with the MP for Western Arctic, Ethel Blondin-Andrew, on this initiative. Discussions are still under way. Given the current fiscal restraint and Mr. Young's desire to cut 75 per cent of his department -- I believe he said that this morning when I was watching him on TV -- I am not that optimistic. However, what I have instructed the department to do is to try to look as creatively as possible at a hire-north concept that we had years ago. That's still under discussion at this time.

That makes sense, especially with the income support program initiatives. If there are jobs there and you can put people to work cutting line and doing whatever has to be done to prepare the ground for a highway, you can work almost out of every community going north and going south. There are good opportunities with the new initiatives that this government is working on.

As I said, there are discussions under way. There are some changes taking place, as Mr. Koe said, with some of the government programs. It's an important initiative. At this time, no decisions have been made, but there are discussions. Social Services, Education, ourselves, the communities and the MP for the area -- I had discussions with her some months ago -- all would like to see something of this nature take place.

However, in fairness, there is no money at this time and we're struggling to maintain what we have. While we're bursting with enthusiasm and are trying to put a package together, we have to find a way to do it within our existing means. Hopefully, we could get some assistance from the federal government and move forward on it. I think some of the changes that Mr. Koe referred to may be what we need to move this forward from a theoretical exercise to a practical one. Thank you.

On page 09-8, the revenues for the revised forecast went from $128,000 to $8,000. Does the Minister know the reason for the decrease in the projections?

Oh dear. Just give me a moment, Mr. Chairman. I must apologize to the Member, I don't have that information in front of me. I will get it post-haste, and advise the Member. Sorry.

We have to approve this and I'm curious about the major decrease.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Transportation Engineering

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is this the one that deals with design and construction? I'm curious about the bridge that is supposed to go in at Poplar River. I would like to ask the Minister how the design and engineering of this bridge is coming along. Thank you.

Thank you. I think I should make it clear to Mr. Antoine, because he was disappointed last year when we took that away, this Poplar River bridge is proceeding. The design work is under way and, God willing, it will be built this year across the river.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to go back to Mr. Koe's comments because I did determine what it was. The $110,000 was the federal government's contribution to assist us in negotiating the Arctic A airports. I apologize for not having that at my fingertips. Thank you.

Thank you. I have made some comments in the past about the need for the department to improve the road in the Fort Simpson area where you get off the island and travel towards the airport. The community has been requesting that this road be hard-topped. It is a very widely used section of the highway. At one point, I asked that some sort of study be done to determine the costs for that section. The engineering section of the department has a tendency to be very generous in their estimates. In talking to private people, they have said it wouldn't cost that much to pave that section of the road or to chip seal it so that we don't have to have graders on it every time it rains. It deteriorates very quickly and it's hard on vehicles. I was wondering if the department has done any work in this regard. Thank you.

Yes. Of course, this would be under capital, but at this time we're looking at the request of the Member to look at a long-term plan to chip seal the road in question.

Mr. Gamble has advised me that we haven't done a study on that bridge lately, no.

Mr. Gamble advises me that it is inspected on a regular basis. Thank you.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Marine Services

If this activity is responsible for the operations and maintenance of ferries, can the Minister advise us if there are plans to change the method of operating ferries this summer?

There is no intent on the part of the department to make any significant changes to the operation of the ferries at this time.

There's a slight reduction in O and M and I heard rumours that there may be a change in the way the ferry at Tsiigehtchic is going to be run, from an on-demand service to some kind of scheduled service. I just want to confirm if this is true or not.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's correct.

Then I'll have to go back to the Minister's initial statement when he said there are no changes to the -- I'm not sure of the wording he used -- no changes to the way that the operation of ferries are going to be run. Can the Minister clarify, then, what he's telling me? Are there changes to the way the ferries are going to be run at Tsiigehtchic.

I believe if you check Hansard, you'll see that my response was that there would be no significant changes to the way the ferries are run. Our intention is to do the ferries on a scheduled- service basis. That's what we intend to do and we're fairly confident that that will maintain the current level of service at this time. Thank you.

Can the Minister then explain what the change is? There's a change to run a scheduled service; what does that mean to the public?

The way I understand it, from discussions with the department, is if one car turned up at the ferry, we would wait until maybe two or three turned up. We're trying to get, if you want, maximum capacity so we would endeavour to run a ferry on a scheduled service like you have everywhere else. That's what our intent here is to do because at the present time, my understanding of it is that it's on demand, if that's the right term. So we're trying to determine, a little more efficiently, a schedule in terms of trying to get more traffic over with the ferries on a more consistent basis. That's what we're trying to do here. It's not our intention to reduce the level of service, it's just to maximize the utilization of the ferries. Thank you.

To an individual customer, it's going to be significant if there's only one vehicle sitting there and that vehicle may have to wait three or four hours before somebody else shows up and before the ferry moves. It's going to impact the customer and I can just imagine my colleague, Mr. Nerysoo, or myself getting phone calls the first day the ferry operates because they have to sit and wait. Customers up in that area are used to being there and getting fairly regular and fast service. To me it's a significant change and I wish to have proper answers when the ferry opens so that I can respond to the complaints that I'm sure I'm going to get from people up in the Delta.