This is page numbers 765 - 792 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was corporation.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am generally satisfied with the direction the Power Corporation is taking. I think the agreement with the Dogrib Nation was a very important agreement. It can provide the basis for future agreements between this government and aboriginal organizations and regions. It has brought the Dogrib people in as partners in taking advantage of future economic opportunities. I know that the next phase of the hydro system, hopefully, will bring more hydro into Yellowknife.

My one concern -- and I know that it is one that is shared by the Minister and the staff --I s that Yellowknife is still far too dependent on diesel fuel. I would like to see, in the future, that more hydro is brought into Yellowknife and that Yellowknife is guaranteed secure access to hydro power, It is obviously going to take some time, but it is one of those tremendous opportunities out there where you have a developed market here in Yellowknife, we still have a fair amount of hydro potential in the Dogrib area and I see where one can definitely work together with the other to provide opportunities for everybody.

So I have publicly stated that I think the government made a wise decision in entering into that first agreement and to continue to work on future agreements. I, for one, will have no problem supporting the loan guarantee bill that, I believe, we will be dealing with this session. It is a important component of the financial arrangement.

A second point, Mr. Chairman, I was pleased to hear that, at least at this time, the government is backing off privatization. I think it is something that the next government can look at. They can look at the implications of division on the Power Corporation and look at the many complex issues that surround the whole issue of privatization of the Power

Corporation. So, I support the government's decision in not dealing with it at this particular time.

One area where I did have some problems with the Power Corporation, and I made those concerns public, was the whole area of the low-water surcharge and the Snare system. It has been my feeling that the Power Corporation definitely should have had some sort of a stabilization fund set up. As I understand it, the Public Utilities Board has now recommended that the Power Corporation do just that and I will ask the Minister responsible a specific question on that when I finish my opening comments.

Power costs in Yellowknife and in the territories are very, very high. In the long-term, we all have to keep in mind that the cost of our power, no matter how you may subsidize it, no matter that communities may not all be aware of exactly how much it is costing, it is a real cost to doing business in the north. It is a very important component of the Northwest Territories becoming economically competitive with other regions in Canada.

I think the move towards user-pay rate zones will be controversial, but it is necessary. Every power consumer, even if they are subsidized, has to actually see how much the cost of providing that service is. If we continue to hide the real costs through a number of direct and indirect subsidies, at the end of the day we are only fooling ourselves. There is a real cost in providing power. Power is a very important component of our economic infrastructure and economic development potential. And we have to get a lot more pragmatic and realistic about what the real costs are. So I definitely support the Power Corporation as they move down that politically tough road. It is a road that we definitely have to go along.

Another area that I see that has tremendous potential for the Power Corporation is the whole area of mining. As it stands now, a lot of the power supplied by mining, for mining, uses very expensive diesel fuel. There is a real possibility that a lot of the mining that could be coming on stream in the next number of years could actually have their fuel supplied from offshore. Now, it we in the Northwest Territories are serious about taking advantage of opportunities created by mining, there is no doubt in my mind that we have to seriously look at the power potential there; what is the potential for hydro, what can the Power Corporation do to provide some of the needs of the mining industry in the years to come. I see that as a tremendous opportunity for the Power Corporation. I also see it as an opportunity that I would like to see the Power Corporation gearing up for right now. Making sure that they have in place the necessary expertise to take full advantage of whatever opportunities will be coming down the pipe in the years to come.

With that, Mr. Chairman, except for a couple of serious concerns, I really do hope to see some kind of a stabilization fund set up. I hope to see that future discussions about privatization will take into account all of the many difficult issues that surround it. Beside those two, I am generally quite satisfied with the direction the Power Corporation is taking. Over the past number of years we have evolved away from the quintessential federal government Crown corporation which we originally inherited, which was noted more for its inefficiency than for anything else. We have adopted, over the past number of years, some strong private business principles. And we are moving towards the day when the Power Corporation can be a much bigger player in the economic fortunes of the Northwest Territories than it is today. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Three things come to mind when we talk about power: one is user- pay, cheaper alternatives, perhaps conservation. Madam Premier.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

I know that the Member said that he would be asking more specific questions on the topics and the issues that he raised. On the matter of the stabilization fund, we took over the Power Corporation in 1988 and the stabilization fund was under discussion over a number of years, but our profit margin really wasn't healthy enough so that dollars could be taken out and put aside. I know it wasn't an issue that was ignored or bypassed, it was something that was always on the table as something we should have instituted.

The corporation is looking towards setting up a stabilization fund so we won't have acts of God posed upon us, creating immediate higher rates for customers. I believe the corporation is aware that there is a good reason for having a fund and it is being worked on.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Ballantyne.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you. I'm glad to hear that we'll have some kind of stabilization fund in place. I'll be looking forward to periodic updates of the progress of that fund. A question I have for the Minister has to do with the potential in mining. Perhaps the Minister could just outline some of the efforts that the Power Corporation has taken in the last year to try to take advantage of some opportunities in the future in mining, especially in diamond mining. If any mines go ahead, they are fairly intensive users of power.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Madam Premier.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know that direction is very much courted by the corporation and a great deal of effort is put into determining what the probabilities are. If you don't mind, I'll pass that question on to the president of the corporation who is dealing with that on a day-to-day basis.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. President of the NWT Power Corporation.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
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Guthrie

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There's quite a few things we've been doing in the past year in this regard. Firstly, I think Members are aware of the signing of the Dogrib power agreement and the resulting building of Snare Cascades, part of that is also referred to as phase II. Phase II was contemplated on a larger project taking place later on to meet the needs of Yellowknife and mining. We continue to have meetings on a fairly regular basis with the Dogrib and with mining companies to pursue those opportunities.

Right at this moment, we're completing a study on what is referred to as upper Snare, as there are two more locations that the Power Corporation has identified in the past as possibly being good hydro sites. But, we needed to gather more information to see whether a good cost-benefit analysis would emerge or not. That will be completed this month. II those two sites are favourable, we will continue to talk to the Dogrib and the mining companies about proceeding with hydro projects in the near future.

Also, this summer we will do some extensive environmental and cost-benefit analysis of other hydro sites on the La Martre River. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Ballantyne.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you. That's useful. I wonder, just to put this into some perspective --some of us who have been involved in this are probably more aware of the potential than a lot of people out there --and we can look at these two sites you're talking about, what is a ballpark potential for the number of megawatts, for example?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. President of the NWT Power Corporation.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Guthrie

Mr. Chairman, the study isn't completed at this time, but together, we're hoping that the potential for the two sites will be 20 megawatts. It's a combination of about eight megawatts and 12 megawatts at the other site. I think you're aware that BHP, as they have planned their project at this time, are putting in 24 megawatts of diesel generation, although their peak load is, I think, only 17 megawatts. In approximately 10 or 11 years time, they would need to double the power they need and so that's why we think that upper Snare, possibly, if we can bring 20 megawatts in there, might meet that when they need to increase their load in 10 years time.

That's about the most optimistic we can be for the upper Snare. Lac La Martre, on the other hand, the potential for 50 megawatts of power exists there.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Ballantyne.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

So what we're talking about, to put this in perspective -- and I'm not holding you to these figures -- is 60 to 80 megawatts between the two potential sites. Perhaps I could ask what the potential is in Yellowknife, it you shift the present use of diesel to hydro. How many megawatts are we talking about for the Yellowknife market?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Through the Premier, Mr. Guthrie.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Guthrie

Mr. Chairman, thank you. Yellowknife, right at this time, has five megawatts of turbine generation capacity and 30 megawatts of diesel capacity, for a total of 35 megawatts. That's up to date, for today.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member for Yellowknife North.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you. So it seems we have potential markets that could almost match our potential output, in a very rough sort of sense. Maybe I could ask the Premier or Mr. Guthrie, through the Premier, what is a reasonable time frame to look at in bringing these 70 or so megawatts into production, assuming that there is, in fact, a market for them?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Madam Premier, you can designate the response to your staff. Madam Premier.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

president of the Power Corporation to continue to answer those detailed questions.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Go ahead, Mr. Guthrie.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
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Guthrie

Mr. Speaker, thank you. Well, I guess there's no easy answer to that but I would think a five to 10-year time frame is reasonable. These things, of course, always depend on more than one thing happening and, certainly, the diamond mines are a big part of that. With consideration of the environmental hearings that are taking place and by the time they're done and the project permit is in place so that we have the encouragement to proceed, I think it would be five years for upper Snare. If the cost-benefit analysis shows that you can develop upper Snare and if it includes Lac La Martre and the bigger project, it would be some time between five and 10 years from now.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

I thank you kindly for addressing me as the Speaker, but I am the chairman. Mr. Ballantyne.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That information is useful. Tell me, as far as the economics of bringing ...For instance, let's assume that both the upper Snare and Lac La Martre, for the sake of this discussion -- everything is very soft -- can be brought on stream. What are the economics of actually using it just for Yellowknife, to bring one or the other of them on stream just to service Yellowknife's needs and not the mining needs. Is that viable or do you really need to piggyback some mining opportunities onto the Yellowknife market?