This is page numbers 853 - 883 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was recall.

Topics

Bill 31: Recall Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. To the principle of the bill.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Some Hon. Members

Question.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Ballantyne.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I want to commend Mr. Lewis for the work he has done on this bill. I don't think anyone can argue with the basic philosophy; that the voters have the right to set any procedure into place that they want to, to hold their politicians accountable. I know Mr. Lewis has worked long and hard on this bill.

So the philosophy is not one I can disagree with. But the mechanics of this bill cause me considerable concern because I am not convinced this bill is accomplishing exactly what Mr. Lewis intends it to accomplish. It seems to me that over the last few years, we have brought in, or are in the process of bringing in, mechanisms to deal with errant MLAs. We have conflict of interest provisions which could, theoretically, cause an MLA to lose their seat. Mr. Dent is bringing forward a bill which means that any MLA who is convicted of acts of violence will automatically lose their seat. So much of the public demand for new mechanisms really has been dealt with. The fact is we now have, and we will have, mechanisms to ensure that MLAs who transgress against acceptable standards will no

longer be MLAs. So the problem is not the same as it was when Mr. Lewis started his hard work on this particular bill.

Another area of this bill that people should think about and discuss, and that our constituents should consider, is what does it mean that an MLA can be recalled. Right away, what comes to people's minds is someone who has committed some offence against someone else or some MLA who has behaved in an absolutely inappropriate way will be recalled. But I see nothing in this bill which limits the reasons for which someone can be recalled. Mr. Lewis has talked about consensus government and has used the fact that we have consensus government as a reason for this mechanism. Just for the sake of an argument, I will put across an opposite reason.

Right off the top of my head, I can think of issues that could bring that sort of an emotional reaction from constituents. One is the abortion issue. The abortion issue, however an MLA with their conscience vote, could have a very strong emotional reaction against that particular vote.

The area of gun control is another area which brings out very strong emotions in every constituency and with these types of controversial issues, it's impossible to gain a consensus in your constituency. I want to remind Members, as well as members of the public who are looking at this, that the next four years are going to be very, very difficult years for this Legislative Assembly and for MLAs in this Legislative Assembly. MLAs in this Assembly are going to have to make very tough, very unpopular decisions in order to save the very viability of the Northwest Territories. I am sure that there will have to be decisions made in this Assembly over the next four years which could severely cut back programs which might impact on the number of civil servants we're able to sustain here in the Northwest Territories. All of those decisions will be very tough. All of them will be very unpopular, but I think everybody in the Northwest Territories must understand that those decisions will have to be made or there won't be any Northwest Territories.

The danger I see with the legislation, as Mr. Lewis has drafted it, is that MLAs are going to be very vulnerable in making tough decisions. Mr. Lewis himself has stated eloquently many times in this Legislative Assembly that one of the flaws of the consensus system is that it is impossible to make tough decisions. Well, I put it to Mr. Lewis with this particular bill in place, if it's tough now, it will be impossible then. No MLA will dare to make the tough decisions that will have to be made.

Mr. Lewis has said again that in other jurisdictions this hasn't been the case. He's stated the case that abortion hasn't been the issue. He's stated that issues such as gun control or budget reductions haven't been an issue. I put to Mr. Lewis and I put to everybody in this House that it's too early to say that. We don't know how this particular bill will play here in the Northwest Territories. I worry very much about that. I worry very much about the very public who would support the concept of recall. If they had an idea of some of the possible negative results of recall, they too may look at it again. I know the public gets very, very upset with politicians who stray from the straight and narrow, who aren't good examples to our children.

On the other hand, we have real work to do here in the Northwest Territories. We have difficult work to do here in the Northwest Territories. We have to have, I think, enough confidence as MLAs that we can make tough decisions without fear of punitive action and I fundamentally believe in the basic principle of participatory democracy. That is, I'm elected by my constituents to use my judgement and hard work to investigate issues, to be privy to information which because of their busy lives they are not privy to and in consultation with them but also on behalf of them, to make decisions. Every MLA in this room, if they really have any kind of strength of character or beliefs, have made decisions from time to time which a good percentage of their constituents may not agree with.

The beauty of a general election every four years is by the nature of it, the people of the Northwest Territories are engaged in a real debate on a whole range of issues. They get to see in every campaign a range of options; a range of alternatives on all these issues. It's very difficult in a normal general election for one issue to totally dominate the agenda at the expense of all other issues. What we have here is a possibility of a campaign dominated by one issue. We have a campaign with no rules that I see, no rules whatsoever. We have a situation where that MLA will be functionally useless to their constituents for the duration of that particular campaign and maybe afterwards because once you're in the paper long enough people start to believe there must be something wrong or somebody wouldn't have brought a complaint against you.

Mr. Lewis, though I respect very much the work you've done, I respect very much the philosophy that you espouse, I, in good conscience, cannot support this bill and I will vote against. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

To the principle of the bill. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I would like to thank the Member for Yellowknife Centre for formulating the bill and the amount of time spent on the bill. I've reviewed the bill. I support the principle of the bill, however, Mr. Speaker, I am concerned with some of the details of the bill. In the event that this bill passes, I certainly would, like my colleague, Mr. Koe, try to work at changing some of the details.

Mr. Speaker, I think the intent and the principle of this bill is something that is what the public was asking for. However, if this bill passes, the public process would be in place to allow the public to speak to the bill. Because of this, I certainly support the idea of whether it's what the public wants. The public will no doubt let us know. If it passes, it allows it then to go to public hearings and we'll find out, as Members, what the public wants. I believe we're here to serve the public and their requests. I think if we deny the public the opportunity to make any type of comments on this bill, I don't think in good conscience we're doing the work that's expected of us by the public.

Mr. Speaker, I certainly wish that Members support the idea by at least allowing it to go to public hearings and then Members can address their concerns on the bill also and then vote to either allow the bill to be passed or denied in this House after the public hearings. With that, Mr. Speaker, I just want to advise the House that I support the principle of the bill. Thank you.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. To the principle of the bill. Mr. Lewis, do you wish to conclude?

Bill 31: Recall Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

April 5th, 1995

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I believe under our rules, I do have a chance to conclude debate before we go to a vote. Mr. Speaker, there's been a suggestion that this could have been referred to SCOL and I'm glad that the debate is, in fact, taking place here on the principle, so the onus was not placed on SCOL or committee of the whole to delay the issue further. It's important, I believe, that we deal with this in a very responsible fashion at second reading and the public would be very upset if further ways were found to delay something that has been in the works for so long.

I note that some Members have given reasons why they cannot support the principle. For example, our Premier vows she cannot support the bill because there are no reasons in the bill. Well, Mr. Speaker, the reason why I didn't put a whole bunch of reasons in the bill is because I got the very best legal advice that's available not only in this government but other governments and also other legal people in town. They told me that if I had said, for being drunk and disorderly, then people would attack the principle of the bill and would say they don't agree it's a big issue in the territories and there are other issues far more important than that.

And, if I had gone with a list of reasons, I would never have the list in such a way that everybody would agree that that is a principle they could support. So, I left if very simple, on the advice of the best legal brains I could get hold of to keep it simple because if I didn't do that, people would attack the principle of the bill on the grounds that it didn't go far enough or went too far, and so on. The principle is a simple one because of the advice I was given. That was the only argument that I can hear from the government for not supporting the bill, because we don't have reasons in it. That was the main point made for the Cabinet, presumably, on whose behalf the Premier spoke, on why the Cabinet can't support the bill. It is because of the advice of the people who also advise them.

Mr. Koe has raised the point that this can be dealt with now, he supposes, but he has concerns about the details. Many people will have concerns about the details, Mr. Speaker, but the problem is, if we defeat this bill now, we will again be the privileged ones. We are the only ones who can talk about this bill, nobody else can, just the privileged people in this House. It will never get to the public and it is to serve that purpose that I wanted to get it to where it could be thoroughly debated, because at last we will be dealing at least with something that has to do with accountability.

I appreciate Mr. Koe's comments and I agree with him that there are things that perhaps could be made better in this bill. Because, like everybody else, I'm an imperfect human being and I've tried many times to improve it by sending it around and changing it, accommodating, trying to find ways of solving this person's problem and that person's problem. I've done the best that I can. I can't do any more work on it. I need the wisdom of the public now. It is only in that way that we can make the bill better than it is.

Now, I come to the most unusual comments that I've heard and they came from my bearded friend from Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

(Microphone turned off)

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

I'm not going to go into great detail but this is what has happened. If you read Hansard tomorrow, I hear Mr. Ballantyne saying that he has no problem with the principle of the bill. Those were his opening comments. The opening comment was, I've got no problem, the public agrees with this, accountability is a fine thing. He went on at great length then, to explain all the problems with the detail. That's what we're talking about, getting the bill out there so the people can deal with the detail. If he has no problem with the principle of the bill then, obviously, he's not going to vote against the principle.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

(Microphone turned off)

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

That was the point he made in his opening comment. If you read Hansard tomorrow, and I'll quote him, he said he would be voting against this bill. Well, you're not going to be voting against this bill at the second reading...

---Applause

You're going to be voting against the principle of the bill and he's already said in his opening comment that he agrees with the principle. If you read Hansard tomorrow, the philosophy of this bill, the basis of this bill, he agrees with. We're not going to have a chance to vote on this bill today because it will never get to be a bill on which that would make a difference at all to what happens to this thing. We're talking about ideas, the basic foundation of it. If we ever get there, well fine, if it's not good enough despite all the work that's done, he can vote against it.

But at this time, we're only talking about one thing, do you believe that the public should have the opportunity to recall a Member before that person's term is up. I've heard very, very few people who have given me one good reason why the public shouldn't have that power.

I'm a democrat, I believe in the democratic process so, therefore, I'm quite happy to sit down now and I will ask for a recorded vote on this particular motion, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. A recorded vote has been called. All those in favour, please stand. Mr. Clerk.

Recorded Vote

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Lewis, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Dent, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Mr. Koe, Mr. Antoine, Ms. Mike, Mr. Whitford.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

All those opposed, please stand.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Ballantyne, Mr. Arngna'naaq, Mr. Ng, Mr. Pollard, Ms. Cournoyea, Mr. Kakfwi, Mr. Morin, Mr. Todd, Mr. Nerysoo, Mr. Ningark.

Bill 31: Recall Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

All those abstaining, please stand.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Zoe.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The Members who voted yes are nine, the Members who voted no are 10, with one abstention. This motion is defeated.

---Defeated

---Applause

Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole...Mr. Antoine.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Standing Committee on Finance reported a number of bills ready for committee of the whole. I'm aware, Mr. Speaker, that according to our rules, these bills will not appear on the order paper in committee of the whole until tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 70(5) and have Bill 18, Northwest Territories Energy Corporation Limited Loan Guarantee Act, moved into committee of the whole for today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Mr. Antoine is seeking unanimous consent to waive rule 70(5) to have Bill 18 moved into committee of the whole today. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Thank you.

Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96; Bill 13, An Act to Amend the Fair Practices Act; Bill 16, An Act to Amend the Retirement Plan Beneficiaries Act; Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Elections Act, No. 2; Bill 24, Community Employees' Benefits Act; Bill 27, An Act to Amend the Land Titles Act; Bill 18, Northwest Territories Energy Corporation Limited Loan Guarantee Act; Committee Report 2-12(7), Report on the Legislative Action Paper on the Office of Ombudsman for the Northwest Territories; Committee Report 3-12(7), Report on the Review of the Legislative Action Paper Proposing New Heritage Legislation for the Northwest Territories; Committee Report 4-12(7), Report on the Review of the 1995-96 Main Estimates; Committee Report 5-12(7), Report on the Review of Rewriting the Liquor Laws of the Northwest Territories: A Legislative Action Paper; and, Committee Report 6-12(7), Report on the Review of the Legislative Discussion Paper on the Draft of the New Education Act with Mr. Ningark in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I would like to recommend the committee consider Bill 18 and, depending on how quickly we get through that, perhaps resume consideration of Bill 1 and Committee Report 4 and the budget of the Department of Health and Social Services.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Do we have the agreement of the committee that we will deal with Bill 18 and then the Department of Health and Social Services?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed