I want to make sure everybody has a copy first.

The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Does the committee agree with clause 71, as amended?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Clause 71 determines the language of instruction and gives authority to district education authorities, in accordance with the regulations, to determine the language of instruction to be used in the education district. So the district education authority will determine what language of instruction will be used in that particular district.

Then it goes on to say that by determining the language of instruction in the education district, this is like a CEC, like a community, that it is an education division, so that they'll have that authority, and then the Minister will give directions to establish standards and guidelines for selection and use of language of instruction, to assure the maintenance of the highest possible standards.

The problem I have with this is that the district education authority may choose a language of instruction, and then it lists three conditions that all have to be met before they determine whether a language will be used at the district education authority.

One of the conditions is that there is a significant demand for the language in the education district. So, after I have finished my concern here, maybe the Minister could explain what significant demand is? Who determines it? Is it the Minister, the superintendent, the principal or the district education authority that determines the condition of significant demand?

Another condition is that there be a sufficient number of teachers who are fluent in the language and able to teach in the language in the education district. So then, another condition is that you have to find enough teachers who are fluent in that language.

The third condition is that there be sufficient and suitable school program materials available in the language.

So there are three conditions before a language of instruction is chosen. That seems to me to put more barriers in front of teaching an aboriginal language. In my communities there is Slavey language in the schools. So the Minister is going to have tell me who determines all these conditions.

What if you have a principal -- and it does happen -- who is against aboriginal languages being provided in the school? Who determines that? The community is not involved in it. Let's say there's a band council, for example. It's not involved in determining if it's their language, but it's their right.

The key to culture is language, and this is one of the things that aboriginal people have been saying for years, the chiefs and councils, that the key to a culture is language and one way of preserving it is to have that right in the school system. I think the right for speaking an aboriginal language in a community is taken away by this clause, especially with the conditions imposed upon it.

If you compare it to this current act, in here, the language of instruction for Slavey could be from K to 3. They must provide that. But now it doesn't do that. So I am concerned about this particular clause in that regard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. So we've agreed to this clause as amended, but maybe the Minister could answer Mr. Antoine's questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The matter that is being considered here is the matter of language of instruction. It is the language in which all the subjects are being taught. That's what it is. It's not the language as a subject. They are two different things. You have to have teachers who speak the language who can teach all the subjects in a language; you have to have the materials with which you teach the children and you have to have the appropriate numbers of students in a class in order for you to deliver that program. This is a matter of quality assurance. It's necessary so that we can have the materials and programs responsive to ensure the success of students. So, in that sense, that's the whole purpose for which we have teaching and learning centres across the Northwest Territories. That's why we have the community teacher education program, which we are, in fact, going to be implementing this year in the Deh Cho. That's the whole purpose of trying to accomplish that, so that we can have more aboriginal teachers who teach the actual subjects in the school in their own language.

The other thing is that this decision is not made solely by the principal. The community leadership is involved. Part of that also includes, under sections 117 and 118, the requirement to consult on these issues and get the advice of the community.

The other point is that this legislation allows the potential for the very consideration that the honourable Member is raising. If he's concerned that the chief is not in charge or that the council isn't, in future, there is a potential where that leadership can assume responsibility for education. So this legislation allows that to happen.

There are two components the honourable Member is confusing, I think. One is the matter of subject and the other one is instruction, and you can't confuse the two because they are two totally different bases on which we teach.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't ask the Minister to determine whether I am confusing people or not. I asked the Minister if he could explain to me the intention of this clause. Is it to put up more barriers than before with regard to choosing a language of instruction? One of the barriers is that there be significant demand, and I asked the Minister who determines this significant demand.

The other one is that there has to be a sufficient number of teachers fluent in the language available to teach in the language in the education district for the language of instruction.

The other one is that there are sufficient, suitable school program materials available in the language. There are more and more materials being developed in the communities with regard to providing aboriginal languages in the classroom.

But it seems there are barriers put up, so if the Minister could, would he explain to me if that is the case or not, and if so, maybe he could explain these conditions that are being imposed regarding language of instruction. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Again, Mr. Chairman, if I might very clearly say, the matter of language of instruction is the language in which you teach all subjects. That's what it is. If Mr. Antoine is saying that he has teachers in his region who can teach the subject math totally -- calculus, trigonometry -- sciences, biology, chemistry, in the language, then we will deliver the program.

But based on that, though, there is a need to ensure that, if you do have the teachers, that you have enough of them. If the issue is language as a subject -- in other words, having someone come in to teach the language so that you can teach children to learn to speak the language properly -- that's a totally different issue, and that can be done in addition to the languages of instruction. Those are two different things. That's what we are talking about when we deal with language of instruction.

Okay, try again, Mr. Antoine.

I understand that it is the language of instruction, Mr. Chairman. What are the chances of now, in this system, having enough teachers fluent in the languages available to teach the language of instruction in all courses? What is this legislation doing to ensure that happens? What this does is limits it. You are putting conditions on there that will ultimately make it difficult to do that. That is my concern. Thank you.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is not intended to be a barrier. This is intended to ensure that there is quality assurances for the communities. I can advise the Member that Innuqatigiit and Dene Kede allow all communities to teach aboriginal languages without any barriers. The curriculum has already been approved. So there is already a basis on which we can teach languages. On the issue of teaching the total program, all elements, we require qualified teachers in our own languages. There are two different issues. That is why I can advise the Member that the teacher education program is, in fact, to make those teachers available. The honourable Member has some of the more qualified aboriginal language educators in the Northwest Territories. Yet, he knows that we don't have enough of them and that is why, beginning this year, we are going to establish the community education program in this community. We have done it in North Slave, the Beaufort/Delta, we are going to be doing it in the Sahtu and Deh Cho this year. We have done it in the Kitikmeot, Keewatin and Baffin, south and north. We have had really great success in the Keewatin; probably, in terms of return on our investment, the highest percentages. Right now, over 50 per cent of the teachers who are hired to teach in the schools in the Keewatin and close to 50 per cent in the Baffin. So we know the success of the community teacher education program and we are starting to see it in the Dogrib communities as well.

That is what our intention is. We are hoping that by the year 2000, as we stated here, 50 per cent of our teaching force will be aboriginal people where we can deal with question of quality assurances in teaching all subjects in the languages.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one last comment on clause 71. The Minister is talking about all these things the department is doing with regard to providing aboriginal languages in the communities. What we have now is okay, but my understanding of this act is to take what we have now and improve on it. Young people in grade 7, 8 and 9 are coming to meet me and they want to speak their language and they want that in school. High school students come to me saying they want their language in high school, but that isn't available now. My understanding of this act was the language of instruction would be developed to provide that availability for them. It is an official languages issue. That is the law of the land. That should be made available to aboriginal students in the west who want to have that opportunity offered to them in the communities. Is that what is happening in this bill?

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This bill makes it easier for aboriginal languages to be used, both as a language of instruction and as a subject. The previous Education Act didn't allow that to happen. We are allowing that to happen, along with the district education authority, to choose the language of instruction from kindergarten to grade 12, not just kindergarten to grade 2, as it is now.

Presently, there are high school courses that have been developed and are now being offered in Deh Cho as part of the language courses. We are working on these issues and, obviously, there are two elements to this: one, the issue of instruction; and, the issue of language classes.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Next was Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have been listening with interest on this section. I believe the section deals with the language of instruction in this particular bill. It sets out the language of instruction that will be taught in the school. My understanding is that the existing bill allows the students to be taught in their own language, at least in the Baffin region, from kindergarten to grade 2. I wonder if the Minister could cite, in this proposed bill, something that would give me the comfort that would guarantee that the language of instruction will be the same or even better than grade 2; that would specifically cite that the first language would be taught.

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is clear, Mr. Chairman. The language of instruction must be an official language. It says it isn't a matter of a prerogative, it must be. If the official language of instruction is Inuktitut, then

that is the language of instruction. The DEA makes that decision. In other words, it isn't going to be the department that makes the determination. We are going to set the standards and the criteria, but they will make the choice of the language. However, it must be an official language. As a result of that, if the official language is Inuktitut, they have to make certain that as a subject, English must be taught. That is their choice.

On the other hand, if English is the language of instruction, an official language other than English must be taught as part of the educational program. It is clear that the language of instruction has to be an official language.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My understanding is that the kids are taught in their first language, which is Inuktitut, from kindergarten up to grade 2. I wanted to get comfort from the Minister that specifically cites that this will continue on even further than grade 2. He didn't cite a clause which would give me comfort. He is saying it will be left up to the DEA; provided that there is significant demand, sufficient number of teachers fluent in that particular language, that they are available, that materials are available, and the Minister has to approve it. Whereas before, it was up to the local education authority if this was taught. They didn't have to go to the Minister, or cite whether there was significant demand or a sufficient number of teachers to teach that language. Now, I understand they have to. If the DEA approves it, does it go up to the Minister? Could the Minister cite a clause in this act that will give me comfort that whatever is happening in Pond Inlet, Igloolik and Hall Beach will continue, or even become better than it is today for the Inuktitut language?

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's too bad people aren't reading the legislation because it says clearly in section 71, "A district education authority shall, in accordance with the requirements of this section, determine the language of instruction to be used in the education district." It doesn't say the Minister shall do it. It says the district education authority shall do it. It's section 71.

But the district education authority must recognize that there are certain requirements and considerations. There is, of course, the matter of the numbers of students, whether or not you have the teachers -- and I made mention that the Baffin, along with the Keewatin, is successful with aboriginal teachers -- and that the materials are available. The language of instruction includes all languages. If you are doing K to 12 from now on or K to 3, it depends on the material that is available. If you have teachers who can teach trigonometry in Inuktitut, or calculus or biology or chemistry, with all the formulas included, then you can teach those subjects. That's a decision left up to the community. We determine the guidelines which safeguard the quality and encourage the use of the language. There are two elements. We don't determine this, it's the community now.

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Section 72(1) reads: "The Minister may give direction establishing standards and guidelines for selection and use of language of instruction to ensure the maintenance of the highest possible standards of education." Does that apply to kindergarten, grade 3 and grade 5?

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. Mr. Nerysoo.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, and we do it now.

Mr. Allooloo.

My understanding is that the community of Pond Inlet teaches in Inuktitut from kindergarten at least up to grade 2 and as a subject for the rest of the grades. Does the community council have to get the Minister's approval under the current act so the students can be taught from kindergarten to grade 2?

Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the current act, from kindergarten to grade 2, no there isn't the requirement to get approval. But they do require that the Minister set standards and criteria for the quality of the program. The clause that is now before you, clause 71, allows the district education authority to provide programming from kindergarten from grade 12. In other words, we've expanded the ability of the district education authority to have control of the language of instruction from K-12. That's what we're doing here. But the same quality assurances still remain. There are policies, policy directions, standards and guidelines. We have that authority now.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Does anyone else want to speak to this issue? Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister indicated earlier in his response to Mr. Allooloo's question that instruction shall be provided in schools only if the materials are available. Is that what he said?

Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, the materials have to, obviously, be available. But this clause deals with the teaching of every subject from 9:00 am to 3:30 pm in that language. It is for teaching math and biology without English; in other words, all in the aboriginal language or whatever official language you wish to use, like English. It is the teaching of those subjects in that language. That's what language of instruction means.

If, for instance, in the Gwich'in communities, we wanted to include Gwich'in as a subject -- in other words, we hire a language instructor for the development of students in that language -- that's a subject, it's not considered a language of instruction. They have to teach all the subjects in the language, as is the case in most of the communities.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I used to work with the Department of Education, doing evaluations of aboriginal languages, including all the dialects. What is the department doing now to assist in producing relevant materials in aboriginal languages?

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We fund the teaching and learning centres, the agents really responsible for developing a lot of the materials. In the matter of curriculum, Innuqatigiit is the basis on which we're going to be delivering Inuktitut programming in the communities. In the west, the base curriculum is Dene Kede. That is what has occurred so far, but we continue to fund the teaching and learning centres. We are also responsible, of course, for teacher training and we have been successful, I think, in the Baffin with the teacher education program.

From a community development perspective, I think we've done a good job. We still need to continue to work towards our goal of having at least 50 per cent aboriginal educators across the north. We have been very successful in the Inuit communities and we hope, by using the same community teacher education program, we can also be successful in the Dene communities. We now have instructors that can actually teach these subjects.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Ms. Mike, are you done? Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In Nunavut communities, from kindergarten to grade 3, instruction is all in Inuktitut, but I'm not sure whether that is the case in western communities, especially in aboriginal communities. That's why I asked if the department still assists in program development by providing learning materials, and if they still do evaluations on production of materials in aboriginal languages. To my understanding, some of the Dene languages, some of the Dene learning materials, are not as progressed as ones in Nunavut. I'm wondering what kind of protection they have under this act.

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you. I will advise the honourable Member that we do have, again, our teaching and learning centres that we fund on an ongoing basis. I believe every language is serviced right now in the Dene, with the exception of pre...The language of instruction, for instance, in Dogrib is from K to 2; and Fort Franklin, North Slavey, I believe it's the same. Those are generally the two. One community in Sahtu and all the communities in the Dogrib region, I believe. That's in terms of language of instruction for Dene communities.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason I have some concerns about this is because the Minister's staff, especially the one sitting behind him, were in the Baffin when the Baffin Divisional Board of Education was established. They were told the importance of -- by the professors from universities in, I think, Montreal -- teaching the Inuktitut language, which is the language most spoken in the homes of Nunavut communities. The importance of it was that if the children whose first language is Inuktitut develop their Inuktitut language first, then they have a better chance of learning English as a second language, as opposed to introducing English right away from kindergarten to grade 3.

I'm wondering if, for the Dene communities in the west, whether that is being considered in schools.

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this legislation does not establish the rights of the French or the rights of the English. This legislation recognizes the existence of a right in the Canadian Charter of Rights. Based on that, we have an obligation to recognize that particular minority language education right that exists. Aboriginal rights, in this particular context, have been recognized in the preamble and in 4.(2).

The problem, Mr. Chairman, and I've been trying to say this in my introduction and in my comments, is that it is very unclear, to date, what those specific rights of aboriginal people really are for education, for that matter because there's no specific definition and interpretation that has been given to those rights. We recognize -- and I've said this all along -- and certainly this government's intention is to recognize that there are existing rights. What they are has not been defined. It makes it very difficult for us to say, yes, certain rights exist and these are the rights. That's what makes it difficult.

What we're trying to do is take it in a broader context and say that whatever rights might exist, we will recognize them. How they are defined, in some cases, will be through self-government agreements or treaty rights definitions or interpretations between the aboriginal people and the federal government. However, as a territorial government, we cannot define what those rights are because the relationship is not between the aboriginal people and the territorial government; the relationship is between the aboriginal people and the federal government, the Crown, you might say. That's why it's difficult for us to say these are the rights.

The other thing is that we're recognizing and encouraging rights of aboriginal languages, as a result of our official languages legislation. As a result of that, we are putting in place the appropriate recognition to allow the communities to respect and to instruct in the official languages within that Official Languages Act.

That's how we're getting into the recognition that they have a right to make these decisions and a right to be educated in those languages.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, right, Mr. Zoe.

---Laughter

Mr. Nerysoo.

Right, Mr. Chairman.

---Laughter

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the honourable Member has pointed out the basis on which the rights of the French are recognized under section 23. It is clear under section 23 of the Charter. "Where numbers warrant" are the words that are incumbent upon the interpretation to be given to that. The courts have ruled quite clearly in its interpretation and based on section 23. You might say the right isn't absolute. You can't just extend more and interpret it to be more than what it really is. I think some of the recommendations that have been made and suggestions here have been that we were trying to extend rights beyond what had been interpreted in the courts. Some suggestions would have gone further than what the courts had ruled.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Clause 71, as amended. Do you agree?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Mr. Allooloo, is right; we hadn't agreed to the amended clause, but now we have agreed.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Mr. Ballantyne.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to return to clause 77. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dent is now back. Do we have consent to go back to clause 77?

Agreed.

---Agreed

We are on clause 77. Mr. Ballantyne.