Thank you. First reading of bills. I am sorry, your motion is in order. To the motion. Questions being called, all those in favour. All those opposed. Motion is carried. Bill 20 has had first reading. First reading of Bills. Mr. Ng.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Sahtu that Bill 21, an Act to Amend the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act be read for the first time. Thank you.

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour. All those opposed. The motion is passed. Bill 21 has had first reading. First reading of bills. Second reading of Bills. Mr. Todd.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Nahendeh that Bill 20, Supplementary Appropriation Act No. 1, 1996/97, be read for the second time. Mr. Speaker, this Bill makes supplementary appropriations for the Government of the Northwest Territories for the fiscal year

ending March 31st, 1997. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

Thank you Mr. Todd. Your motion is in order. To the principle of the Bill. Question has been called. All those in favour. All those opposed. The motion is carried. Bill 20 has had second reading and accordingly stands ordered to Committee of the Whole. Second reading of Bills. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and other matters, Tabled Document 1-13(3), Tabled Document 83-13(3), Tabled Document 90-13(3), Tabled Document 91-13(3), Ministers' Statement 82-13(3), and Bill 20, Supplementary Appropriation Act No. 1, 96/97, with Mrs. Groenewegen in the Chair.

Thank you Madam Chair. My comments will be brief. Madam Chair, I have been looking forward to this discussion with Members on the important subject of community empowerment. Last Thursday, I made a Minister's Statement in this House and tabled a number of documents relating to community empowerment. It is my hope that we can have a constructive discussion today. Madam Chair, right across Canada, Provincial Governments are re-examining their relationship with Municipal Governments. In every jurisdiction across the country, more authority and control is being transferred from Provinces to local Governments. Over 30% of Government spending in Canada is now controlled by Municipal Governments, up from 15% just 5 years ago. Our community Governments in the Northwest Territories are also stronger and more experienced today. We see this in the improved financial management in communities, and in the successful transfer, under the previous community transfer initiative, of a number of programs and services over the past few years. Madam Chair, Community Empowerment means a fundamental change in the way we do business as a Government. It has major implications for communities, for residents, and for this Legislative Assembly. It means that some of the decisions that we used to make in this House will be made by communities. The main issue is a simple one. Are we, as Territorial-level politicians, willing to share the power and authority we have with communities? Madam Chair, I hope the answer is yes. Community Empowerment is a big change, but it will be a big change for the better if we manage it properly and well. I think all Members realize that we have to change the way we deliver Government programs and services in the NWT. Yes, we need to reduce the costs of delivery, but that is only part of the picture. We have to deal with the fact that many of our programs and services would probably be more effective if they were managed and controlled at the community level. In a big Territory like ours, a one size fits all approach just does not work well. This is nothing new. Members raise this issue frequently. I know that I did myself when I was an ordinary MLA. Madam Chair, the most important question we have to discuss today is whether or not this Legislative Assembly supports the transfer of an appropriate level of authority and control from the Territorial level of Government to the community level of Government. I say an appropriate level of authority and control. Every day Ministers deal with Members who raise concerns from their communities that might be better handled in the community

itself. Madam Chair, Cabinet has never said that we should blindly, and without thinking, simply transfer wholesale Government programs and services to community control. What we have said from the beginning is that we have to re-think what the Territorial Government and the Territorial politicians need to be responsible for, and what community Governments and community leaders should be responsible for. With authority and control comes accountability. I mentioned that we are working with the Office of the Auditor General of Canada to identify and address accountability issues. I expect to bring an implementation plan for the Community Empowerment Initiative to Cabinet in early November. I hope that today, we will get a clear understanding of Members' concerns and questions. I will ensure that these issues are addressed in our implementation planning. Madam Chair, with the co-operation and constructive advice of all Members of this House, we can strengthen communities and put the tools for solving local problems back in local hands. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The original vision of Community Empowerment was to give the communities the flexibility to establish their own set of priorities with respect to certain programs and services in the community. Communities have always said they should make their own decisions, set their own priorities, and be accountable to the community residents for most programs and services presently provided by the GNWT. Even though it is a community empowerment initiative of the government, it has been a vision that communities would empower themselves through knowledge and opportunities created by this government. That has been there for many many many years, Madam Chair. Communities are fully committed to doing that. The communities envisioned that the government would facilitate this process in partnership with the communities. The government would provide the tools, training and support, and advice to communities, so communities could empower themselves. It has never been, I do not think, in history, where people have been willing to easily give up power. There is no doubt in my mind that when the communities start making decisions, it will affect the job that the MLA does today, including mine. Because the community will be the one making those decisions, and it would be better for them. MACA was chooses to facilitate the community empowerment initiative and create opportunities to empower themselves and create opportunities for the departments to work with the communities in various areas of community interest.

It was also envisioned that a community development approach should be used, and existing government staff would be assigned to work with, and for the community. That portion there, is very very important, because the communities have to feel comfortable with the people that are working with the communities, have to trust them, and the communities have to make sure that they can move ahead in good faith with the government people they are working with. So the vision for the community profiles would be developed in partnership, and these were to be used for assessment purposes of community capacity, structure, training, development, transfer plans, time and etcetera. So that is a very important part that MACA will be working with the communities, and the government will be working with the communities, so that they can go into the communities to assess, and know what assistance the community needs to move ahead.

Like I have said before in this House, there is no doubt in my mind, the communities are able, willing, and capable of taking on and making their own decisions at the community level. This whole issue of community empowerment has been there for many many years, and it will continue to be a major priority of the communities until they do have the decision-making at the community level.

It was understood that community empowerment initiatives within the government is quite complicated. The government has to change the way it does business, and untangle itself in order for the government to develop adequate tools and frameworks so that communities can empower themselves.

What still must be undertaken while an implementation plan is developed, is what program functions can be transferred to the communities? An assessment process which can confirm that programs functions, requests by the community should be transferred. The GNWT must ensure that the communities are adequately trained, so they have the necessary skills and expertise to effectively manage these programs. There is no doubt in my mind that as we move along with this process, and as we move down this road there will be some mistakes made. That is how people will learn as well. This government and previous governments have made mistakes themselves. I remember my good friend, the Member from Yellowknife Centre talked the other day about being involved when Stu Hodgson came here. That was in the sixties, I believe. From that time to this time, there has been very little empowerment to the communities, other than the water and the sewer, water delivery, sewage, garbage pick-up, a bit of road maintenance. That has basically been the community empowerment in my communities. Other than that the decisions are made in Fort Smith or Yellowknife. I am totally convinced that our communities in partnership with this government will be able to do that, and work to empower themselves. You know it is just a matter of us, as a government, facilitating that. We also have to make sure that, when we are talking about community empowerment and how it is going to work at the community level, that we have to ensure that the self-government initiatives by the First Nations are co-ordinated with empowerment. That is very important, because there are some of our people who are going down that road, and we have to go down that road with them. Regardless of whether or not this government came out with a priority of community empowerment, it is going to happen. One way or the other, it is going to happen. It is our choice as to whether or not we work with the communities and assist it to happen. That is the bottom line. Our good friend from the Mackenzie Delta -- it is right in their claim, they have self-government. Sahtu has got self-government, and all the other claims are negotiating the same thing. So we had better get on with the job and respond to our communities and respond properly, and work with them so that we can help them and assist them to make it happen. Community empowerment is one way of starting that vehicle down the right path. I know that probably it is not going to come as any surprise to me, but Members will raise the whole issue of accountability, rightfully so. We have to make sure, ultimately, that we are accountable to the public purse, and we have to make sure the process is in place so that communities are accountable as well. That is one of the reasons that we are here as Members of this Legislative Assembly, is to receive the dollars, whether it be from the federal government, and produce programs and service to people who we are elected to service in the most economical and efficient way. One of those ways would be through community empowerment, where we would not have the layers upon layers of government to go through just to make a simple decision. I could give you, for example, Madam Chair, that this would have been two years ago now, or a year and a half ago, a lady in my riding, a simple thing of a broken window cost $237 to replace. It took 10 people -- it had to go through 10 people in government -- before the decision went back to the community to the Housing Authority to replace that window, and back charge her so she could take it out of her paycheque. But 10 people from Government had to pick up a phone or write a letter just to solve that one little problem. If the community had the power to do things at the community level, it would have just meant a trip down to the band office and it would have been solved, and it would have saved government money, and she would have still had to pay her $236. So community empowerment makes sense. Community empowerment is the way to go. We had just better get on to that train, because that train is going to leave the station without us. It is as simple as that. So we can fight it, if we want, but in the end it is going to happen. Communities are demanding to have the say at the community level. They are going to get it, one way or the other. We can either be good guys and be along to assist them, or we can be bad guys and say no, no way. But in the end, Madam Chair, it will happen, there is no doubt in my mind. It will happen. Because it is evolution and that is the way it goes. Accountability--no problem. We set up a system and we make sure that it is accountable. So as time goes on, this is not a new issue, this is an old issue. It is just finally that the government is getting that opportunity to address it. I have heard many, many things about the bad news that is out there in the last few weeks. Everybody keeps talking about cuts and rollbacks and restraint. One of the good news things that we have, and we are able to deliver on, is community empowerment, and we should not take it lightly, because it is good news. Like I have told my constituents, they have asked me, is this off-loading? I said no, it is not off-loading. What it is, is it gives you the opportunity to make the decisions at the community level, or else if you do not do it, it will be made at the Yellowknife level. You have that opportunity. All we have to do is sit down, make sure the proper training is in place, the proper resources are in place, and the proper accountability is in place, and move on with it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you Madam Chair. Madam Chair, community empowerment is one of these things that is very hard to argue against. But it is also very difficult for any Member here to put it in words, what is community empowerment. We talk about making decisions at the community level. What does that mean? What are the implications for logistically, and financial control for this? Sometimes it sounds like we are involved in an experiment here. Are we in some type of biosphere, some type of scientific evaluation, to allow people to empower themselves, and then see what happens? An example is on the tabled document presented by the Minister. It says "take responsibility for the design and delivery of programs and services". What does that mean? For example, now the divisional boards of education in most of our regions have not got the funding to design, or produce aboriginal curriculum. I know that one of the people that won the Minister's Literacy Award, right now is scrambling to find the resources to do this, make the Inuktitut literacy resources. What type of responsibility delivery are you going to hand down? Some other Members talk about how the government in Yellowknife, which is 24 people here

today, have so much power. We have got to give it up. I do not know how much power I have got. I do not think I have very much. What you do have is the legislative power, not the authoritative power. You have a fiduciary responsibility, but you do not have the power to change things. Under community empowerment, what would the community gain by, for example, taking over programs - what programs and services would they take over? Would they take over social services? Could they change the social guidelines under the Financial Administration Act? No, they cannot. Would they be able to change the hours of school? Yes, they could, but that is also their right now under the Community Education Council, because of the new reforms to the Education Act.

Most of the powers for a lot of our communities are at the community level today. The controversy over the Fort Simpson Rec. Centre which made it look like this assembly was stopping it, I mean, that is a project $150 million dollar capital budget over 1.2 billion dollar budget of this government $680 million dollars of this government goes to O & M, operation and maintenance, with continued reductions to our federal transfer base. My fear, madam chair is that the idea of community empowerment is a way of, kind of, bringing down the common denominator as is were, and setting up infrastructure at the community level which will not have the resources to keep it in tune.

So, for example, if the community of Hard Luck Bay takes over the school today and then at the end of the week three boilers go down, whose is going to pay to bring in the boiler mechanics, if the community does not have it? Does that come out of the O & M budget of the school so they have to cut the land program? I do not now, no-one has answered that. Mr. Todd is shaking his head and saying no, over there, but the reality is we are laying off all of our DPW boiler people, regional people, so how do they get to the community?

I mean, these are realistic questions, these are realistic comments. I would challenge the Minister to give me five examples today, when we get into question period, of what is community empowerment? Give me five examples of what communities want. Do they want to have by-laws? We have that. Do communities want the ability to write social assistance cheques? We have that. Do communities want to build arenas? Well, that is fine, let them build the arenas, but where are they going to get the architects, the engineers, project engineers? Will that come from a company that they have to hire? Who will float those things?

So, give me five examples, I would like to see that. Maybe it is me, as Mr. Ootes said earlier today, maybe Mr. Ootes was dumb, maybe I am with Mr. Ootes, maybe I am dumb too, because I do not see the responsibility transfer that you are talking about. In parts of the Northwest Territories you have the situation where you have band councils, you have a hamlet council, then you have a regional aboriginal organization. Well, in the eastern arctic we do not have that. We either have a hamlet or a town council and we have an NTI land claim organization above it. We do not have that same duplistic or triplistic organizational structure in our communities. In that instance I do not see where community empowerment would fit. Maybe I am not understanding the big picture.

I have a problem with community empowerment empowering people. It sounds so great but show me how it is going to work and give me examples of it and then maybe I will understand. Mr. Miltenberger talked about my analogy about educating children, but what I am trying to say is that, you do not expect someone to walk before they can crawl. We have to be able to do those things, and that is not being paternalistic or patronistic.

So, that is just some general comment for discussion and, again, if I hear community empowerment any more over the next couple of weeks, maybe I will finally understand it, but today, I sit with the caucus of two and not understand it at all.

Madam Chairperson, those are my comments and I look forward to debating this later on today and questioning the Minister on the logistics of community empowerment. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to my honourable colleague from Yellowknife South. I was thinking about the analogy of the great movie that just recently came out, won several awards, and that was as a result of Mr. Ootes. I did not mean it in a derogatory way. We are quite well known, thank you, madam Chairperson.

(Through a translator.) Thank you, madam Chair. In regards to community empowerment, I have a concern about it as well. The questions that I would like to raise as to, like the taxation part of this, I mean if the community is going to be taxed up to seventy-five percent and there are lots of things to consider, especially high costs in communities. How are the communities going to be able to survive with the kind of funding they will be receiving?

If they would like to borrow money from the banks, how would they go about requesting a loan? Particularly in the smaller communities some hamlets do not always run their monies well. Some usually have deficits and if these small communities do end up having deficits, who will end up paying for the deficit that they already have on top of the low funding that they may be getting? These are the types of questions I would like to raise. Thank you, madam chair.