The Committee Report 6-13(3), Report on the Review of the Report of the Auditor General to the NWT Legislative Assembly for the Year Ended March 31, 1995. I believe Mr. Erasmus will have opening remarks. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our first area of concern was with regard to expenditures and budgeting. One concern in the Auditor General's Report was that many government programs had base deficiencies in their budgets, and needed regular supplementary appropriations. For these programs, not enough money was budgeted to cover their costs.

In his appearance before the committee, Mr. Voytilla first explained that changes introduced for the business plans and budgets this year should address these concerns. Departments have been instructed to draft their budgets assuming that they will not be able to get supplementary appropriations, except for emergencies.

The report also mentioned that supplementary reserves were often not large enough to cover the unpredictable events, such as bad forest fire seasons, that had arisen.

Many of the specific problems in this area related to the then-separate Departments of Health and Social Services. Mr. Ramsden responded to Members' questions on base deficiencies and budgeting problems in the Department of Health and Social Services. Over-expenditures in these areas are generally related. The difficulty is in projecting how much use our growing population makes of our health care system. Mr. Ramsden expressed optimism that the new business plan budget process would address many of these problems.

Future Liabilities, Pay Equity and Environmental Restoration

The report expressed concern that two large possible future liabilities -- the pay equity complaint by the UNW, and costs of environmental restoration at polluted sites, are not reflected on the government's books. If and when these costs ever have to be paid, they could seriously affect the government's financial position. Members worry that these issues could adversely affect planning for Division, as both the assets and the liabilities of the government must be divided between the two new territories in 1999.

Also, for a number of years now, there has been an outstanding complaint by the Union of Northern Workers regarding pay equity in the government. The UNW is seeking significant compensation for alleged inequity in pay between jobs primarily held by women, and jobs primarily held by men. If the UNW is successful in its complaint, the government could be faced with significant retroactive compensation payments, and possibly expensive changes to its pay scales.

The government had filed in federal court, seeking a judgement on the jurisdiction of the Canadian Human Rights Commission in the case. The court recently ruled that while the Commission did have jurisdiction, they had to reassess the latest findings due to a technicality. The government is appealing that decision.

In the meantime, as is noted in the 1993/94 report, the government has not recorded any amount for a liability on its books. Should an award of any amount ever be made in the UNW's favour, that amount will increase the government's deficit. Committee members are very concerned that an amount for this potential liability has not been entered into the Public Accounts.

The Comptroller-General explained that the government is confident that they will win their appeal of a recent court decision on the pay equity complaint. And that they therefore do not need to enter a liability on the books. Committee Members, however, expressed strong concern on these issues, but were unable to get the Controller-General to indicate an amount of potential liability for the pay equity complaint.

Mr. Voytilla noted that some preliminary work on identifying sites and costs had been done, but that much more work lay ahead. This work involves not only identifying sites, but also identifying liability and jurisdiction. Some sites may be the responsibility of the federal government for cleanup, or perhaps even of the US Armed Forces for some wartime and DEW line sites. The Auditor General's staff also reminded Members that the accounting issue was only a part of the problem, and that health and public safety issues were critical in considering the whole problem of environmental cleanup.

Committee Members agreed that the issue of potential liabilities was a serious one, and worthy of more decision action from the Government.

Mr. Chairman, I move that the Standing Committee recommends that the government determine amounts to be entered into the Public Accounts reflecting the potential liabilities surrounding the pay equity complaint and environmental restoration costs, and that they do so before March 31, 1997.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee recommends that the government determine amounts to be entered into Public Accounts reflecting the potential liabilities surrounding the pay equity complaint and environmental restoration costs, and that they do so before March 31, 1997.

In talking to the Minister Responsible, the Chairman of FMBS, just previously, he has major concerns with this motion. My understanding is that some of the issues that are addressed in this motion are before the courts right now. Also, the costs that occur to this motion would reflect badly on this government. Mr. Chairman, I think with things being discussed or negotiated before the courts, we should not pre-empt what those courts would do. In general, Mr. Chairman, I guess the best person to talk to this would be the Minister of Finance. It would be better if he spoke to it than me. I was just trying to fill in a little time until he got here.

Thank you. Mr. Minister of Finance, we are dealing with the recommendation from the Standing Committee on Government Operations. Mr. Todd.

Thank you Mr. Chairman. First of all, this issue is before the courts. The Committee was well aware it was before the courts. They spoke to Mr. Voytilla. He advised the Committee of that. The motion is inappropriate. I would be unable to enact it, until such time as the court comes down with its ruling. Members of the Committee, particularly those who have been advocates of this, and I know who they are, know full well, if they want to act in a responsible manner, then resolutions should come forward in a responsible manner. This recommendation simply cannot be put into force, because the issue is

before the courts. The Committee was advised it was before the courts. The appeal is before the courts, and I have to say to the House, that I would be unable to meet the recommendation as being recommended by the Committee. Thank you.

To the motion. Recommendation one as a motion. To the motion. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The recommendation is not for this government to pay out that amount. This motion is simply to determine the amounts that we could potentially have to pay. The Auditor General certainly understands that one of these items is before the courts, and so does the Standing Committee on Government Operations. As I indicated previously, we do not believe that this stops this government from evaluating how much the cost could be, if we had to pay it.

But certainly, the other item is not in the courts. And the Auditor General has expressed serious concern as did several Members of the Committee, that there is no indication of how much it would cost to do environmental cleanups, and even who is responsible to pay for those. As has been indicated in the report, some of them could be United States army, and other people. So we have recommended, and we are now making a motion, that this government determine those amounts, and to reflect that the potential liabilities, and that they do so by March 31, 1997. Thank you.

Mr. Minister. I have the Minister of Finance and Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Todd.

The pay equity situation, Mr. Chairman, is in the courts, and the appeal is in the courts. The position of this government is not to support the motion. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus.

I am sorry. Did the Minister make a statement? Nobody here could hear it.

The Minister has indicated that the issue at hand is in the court, and he is not going to support the motion that is what I think. To the motion. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman. I have not yet discussed the matter and we should just bring it to a vote. Thank you.

Thank you. I am informed by the Clerk that, as the honourable Member for Finance has indicated, the issue is before the Court and the Minister has no knowledge of the exact amount. That has to be disclosed. So we have to be very cautious of what we say during the discussion of this particular item. General comments. Mr. Minister.

Yes, it has just been pointed out to me by some of the Members that perhaps, Mr. Chairman, given that some thoughts of this motion and this preamble are before the courts, so we could get a ruling on the matter either today or tomorrow.

Thank you. Does the Committee wish to... yes Mr. Erasmus.

Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be appropriate just to hold off on this particular motion.

Thank you. The mover of the motion is indicating to the Committee that he has agreed to hold off on this particular motion until more information is received. Mr. Todd.

I would appreciate and I do appreciate the Chairman's comments of delaying this Motion until such time as I have had an opportunity to talk to him in the Committee. So I thank the Chairman for that and I will endeavour to do that later today or tomorrow before the House sits.

Thank you. Given the mover of the Motion has indicated his position and the Minister, in this case, has indicated his agreement to agree on this? Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the Standing Committee recommends that the Government apply to the Government of Canada to use the remaining funds in the Arctic Environmental Strategy to complete an initial inventory of sites requiring environmental restoration including possible clean up costs.

Thank you. Recommendation to inform of a motion is an order to the motion?

Question has been called. All those in favour please signify in the usual manner. Down. Opposed. The Motion is carried. Mr. Erasmus.