Thank you, Mr. Picco. Mr. Speaker, I know that the territorial old-age supplement is now under review, and I heard Mr. Dent say yesterday that the food allowance levels for social assistance are also under review. Mr. Speaker, as I have come to understand it from my committee work, the territorial budget is a living thing. It is possible to have such things as supplementary funding or special warrants to make adjustments in the budget, even after it has been passed by this House.

I understand that the review of the territorial seniors' supplement and other income support payment is not expected to be completed until June. It is reasonable that the Minister and his officials should have some time to plan this out so it is done properly. I would like to see them take into account the differences in the cost of living when they review the territorial income supplement. I also agree with the point made by my colleague, Mr. Barnabas, yesterday, that the cost of living should be taken into account in figuring out how much the food allowance part of social assistance payments should be. So I will wait until June, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank Members for supporting my motion in Committee of the Whole the other day that these amounts should be reviewed. I was very happy to have the support of all Members of this House for that motion. I guess I should have noted on the record when that motion was passed, that the vote was unanimous. I was also grateful that my colleague from Yellowknife North and chair of the Government Operations committee, Mr. Erasmus, expressed his strong support for the motion.

Hear! Hear!

Mr. Speaker, my motion simply recommended a review of the seniors' monthly supplement from the GNWT with a view to increasing this monthly payment so as to at least keep up to the cost of living.

Mr. Speaker, while doing my research to prepare for the motion I presented in Committee of the Whole, I was fortunate to meet Mrs. Esther Braden, president of the NWT Seniors' Society. Mrs. Braden told me that this concern has been brought up at all the recent meetings of the society, by representatives from various parts of the NWT. Mr. Speaker, I will be suggesting to Members of this Assembly that we should invite Mrs. Braden to make a presentation to us, either in Caucus or in this Assembly, on what advice our seniors would give us about this budget. I would like to hear their recommendations on how the lives of our valued and respected seniors in the NWT could be improved. I am grateful that our government is providing funds to allow this organization to meet once or twice a year, and I know that there is a seniors' help line on a 1-800 number that can be dialled free.

I was also pleased to hear the recent announcement from the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, the Honourable Goo Arlooktoo, that there will be a new program to help with seniors' housing needs. However, what I am concerned about is reviewing the level of the seniors' supplementary pension funding. I will very much look forward to hearing the results of the review.

I have some other comments about the budget, Mr. Speaker.

Firstly, I want to acknowledge that I have recently received several petitions asking for public debate on the subject of MLAs' compensation. Our rules do not allow that debate to take place at this time in our Assembly, but I'd like to say a few words on this. First of all, I can tell you that the subject of MLAs' wages and benefits was not an issue of concern in the election campaign in Baffin Central. I do not recall anyone asking me about that or raising it as a concern. I know that there are some people who are concerned that MLAs are making too much, especially when their wages and benefits, or even their jobs, are being cut. I have met with nurses, teachers and other government employees in my constituency who have faced sharp increases in their staff housing rents, who have been forced to pay for utilities, even though they have no other choice as to where they live. Recently, some of them have lost a sizable tax-free benefit which is considered part of their income and has been often used to buy equipment such as an outboard motor, skidoo or boat to take the family out on the land, not for a recreation trip to Montreal.

So I understand that concern, Mr. Speaker. I have made many statements in this House trying to explain the situation of government employees in my communities. Mr. Speaker, they have extended families. They are already stretched to the limit financially. It hurts me that it is the people with large families who are most affected by the cuts to wages and benefits of the non-unionized employees. I am concerned when I see examples of single persons or couples without children who are actually coming out further ahead financially than they were before, considering the impact of these cuts. This is not fair, Mr. Speaker. This is not equitable. This is not what Mr. Picco calls "fairity."

Hear! Hear!

So I am not surprised that these hardworking, tax-paying NWT workers, as they call themselves, are very concerned about the wages and benefits paid to

MLAs. However, Mr. Speaker, there is another way of looking at this issue. Maybe I can explain what this issue means to me on a personal level. I am going to have to get personal because the changes are affecting me and my family. I live in Clyde River, as you know. It is a very expensive place to live. It is a long way to travel from Clyde River to Yellowknife and it costs a lot. I have six children and a very excellent, supportive wife. It is very important to me that, when I am away from home for long periods of time attending this Assembly, my wife and at least some of our children are here. It helps me to do a good job as MLA if I can have that support here in Yellowknife. I don't think it is unreasonable, considering the stress and pressures that we are all under in this Assembly, that we should be able to have family members staying with us during the long sessions of this Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, a large part of my income goes to the costs of looking after my family. I have to buy plane tickets for members of my family and pay other living expenses of that kind, because I live a long way from Yellowknife. I understand that there is concern that even after we reduced our indemnities and wages by seven per cent, some of the allowances we are getting for living expenses are being increased according to the cost of living. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you, from my personal experience, that the cost of living in Baffin Central is not staying the same. It is going up. I am afraid that fuel prices and air fares will increase. I am advocating taking into account increases in the cost of living for the territorial seniors' supplement. I agree with Mr. Barnabas that cost of living should be factored into the food allowances that are paid to people on social assistance across the Northwest Territories. I also believe that we should not be ashamed or guilty if the cost of living is taken into account in calculating our living allowances. This is not income, Mr. Speaker; these allowances are for expenses.

Mr. Speaker, many of the petitions I am receiving are signed by the members of the NWT Teachers' Association, in which I was once a member, and the Union of Northern Workers, and we are all aware that negotiations and collective bargaining are now going on. Mr. Speaker, some of the petitions I have received are making a link between MLAs' compensation and negotiations which are now going on between the union and the government. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it is appropriate for Members of this Assembly to be publicly involved in the negotiations which are now going on.

--- Applause

We should leave that to the negotiators, Mr. Speaker. However, we are always accountable to our constituents. Mr. Speaker, I am willing to be accountable to my constituents about what I am paid and what benefits are given to me. I know that the agreement we reached to cut back our indemnities ... For some reason, Mr. Speaker, I can't say that word.

Your time is up.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my reply to the Budget Address.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to complete his reply to the Budget Address. Are there any nays? Proceed, Mr. Enuaraq.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ...by seven per cent, to reduce the pension plan for new MLAs by a large amount, and to cut back our vacation travel benefit, has meant a lot less income for me personally. I appreciate the opportunity, while I am on the subject of our budget for 1996-97, to explain a little bit about how this issue affects me and my family. I thank you, Mr. Speaker and colleagues, for allowing me to do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Enuaraq. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Mr. Barnabas.

Mr. Barnabas's Reply

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to reply to the Budget Address. There are lots of concerns which my constituents have. One of the most critical, which I have discussed with the honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mrs. Manitok Thompson, has to do with recreation facilities in small, remote communities. Mr. Speaker, Resolute Bay and Grise Fiord are not eligible for arenas. They are too small. They do not expect to have an arena. However, this does not mean that they do not have recreation needs. It is just as important that young people in those small communities have the same opportunity to play hockey and skate in the winter, as young people who live in the larger communities. Mr. Speaker, if you take a close look at our climates in those two communities, you will note that there are two things which make it difficult for an outdoor skating program to succeed. Firstly, these communities are in total darkness through much of the winter. Also, they face more severe cold and wind than other communities further south. If our government is serious about allowing residents of these small communities the opportunity to play hockey and skate, then there must be some shelter for these outdoor rinks. I just want to, once again, thank the Minister of MACA for coming to these communities last month and for agreeing to look into ways her department could help to meet this need.

It may take some new approaches, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps we could look at what are called 'sprung structures," where material is stretched across a metal frame. These are cost effective and seem to have worked quite well in places like Nanisivik, if they are properly maintained. I know that some honourable Members are saying that we should look at slashing the capital budget, in order to reduce our deficit. However, I would remind my colleagues that not all communities have basic recreation facilities. We should finish the job off before we stop financing recreation facilities in communities whose needs have not yet been met. I ask my colleagues to work with me and support me to find a fair and reasonable solution to meet the recreation needs in the smallest communities before we say the job is done.

I listened to my honourable colleague, Mr. Ootes's, description of education and other social programs in his reply to the Budget Address yesterday. He described them as "cash-guzzling departments.' I would say that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment does a lot more than spend lots of cash. This department represents our future, Mr. Speaker. Unless we make our education system work for our people, the Nunavut government will not belong to us. We have not worked on creating Nunavut for over 20 years to create opportunities for outsiders to come in to our communities and take up the new job opportunities.

We must prepare our northern residents, Inuit and non-Inuit alike, to be able to take on many of the new job opportunities which will emerge. Mr. Speaker, I am very hopeful that the monies which have been announced by Mr. Irwin as being available for training or Nunavut, which is $39.8 million, can be managed by the GNWT through the Nunavut Arctic College.

We have a system in place which will allow a good deal of training to take place at the community level, through the Nunavut Arctic College and each community's learning centre. This is the best way of getting the maximum results from the monies which have been made available. I understand that the funds are less than had been recommended or requested by the NIC and the GNWT, but let us at least make sure that what we do have to spend on training is spent using our existing college system.

I will give our Minister of Education my full support to pursue this goal with the Minister of Indian Affairs in the weeks and months ahead. We must make the best use of this money. It must be spent in an effective manner, as much at the community level as possible. This can only be done using the Nunavut Arctic College. We do not need to create new bodies to deliver this training. We do not need the federal government to come into the North and do the training for us. Let us use our Nunavut Arctic College system, which is accountable to our constituents through this Assembly and which is overseen by a board of the governors which represents all the regions of Nunavut.

That is my advice to Mr. Todd and Mr. Dent. Let us make sure that we at least have a big say in how the education and training money for Nunavut is spent.

I went to also express my support for the Nunavut Caucus, the Premier, Cabinet Ministers and especially the Division committee of Cabinet which is pursuing the question of how we can best spend education and training money and also the other important issues of concern to do with the creation of Nunavut: The decentralized government model; the management of infrastructure funds; the adequacy of the formula for funding ongoing operations of the Nunavut government and the government of the Western Territory. I am pleased that we are working closely together as a Nunavut Caucus and also that we are working closely together with the Cabinet and the key Cabinet Ministers -- the Premier, the Deputy Premier and the Ministers of Finance and Municipal and Community Affairs -- so that we have a clear message and a strong message. I have confidence in those Ministers and in my colleagues on the Nunavut Caucus, and particularly my colleague and co-chair, Mr. John Ningark.

I am very pleased that this overdue meeting was called at the initiative of the Nunavut Caucus, and I am very pleased that all the Members of the Nunavut Caucus participated strongly at the recent Nunavut leaders' summit in Arviat and that we worked together to make our positions very clear. We are still waiting for answers and clarification on some of our recommendations, but I believe they were made in a manner which makes sense and requires a thoughtful response from both the federal government and Nunavut Tunngavik.

In this connection, Mr. Speaker, I want to make a few comments. Although I am only a new MLA and this was my first attendance at a Nunavut leaders' summit, I was disappointed at the recent meeting to note a very confrontational and personal approach taken by some participants at the meeting. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to single anyone out for criticism. However, may I again repeat the wise words of Mr. Ludy Pudluk in his farewell speech to this Legislative Assembly: "People are not electing us to become enemies," Mr. Pudluk said. 'They are electing us to work together. We are expected, by our people, to work together, help each other and develop the North, not to make enemies."

I will repeat this advice again, Mr. Speaker, to remind all Nunavut leaders that we have gotten this far by working together. We must continue to do so again. Although we will have very difficult issues to face, we must face them together in a spirit of mutual respect. I understand there will be disagreements on how certain issues should be handled and about who should do what. But let us show respect and courtesy to one another as we work on these sometimes difficult issues.

I want to make some other comments about the budget which is before us.

Mr. Speaker, I have already put on record my concerns about social assistance rates and, particularly, the adequacy of the food allowance component of social assistance. My constituents who must depend on social assistance were hurt by the cutbacks announced before Christmas. I know that the objects of some of those cutbacks were to provide encouragement for people to work and less incentive for them to remain on welfare. I am all for this, provided there are jobs these people can take up. However, there are not enough jobs available for everyone who wants to work in my communities, and some people, try as we might, are unable to work -elders, handicapped people, those who are victims of abuse or addictions. Mr. Speaker, if people must be on welfare because there is no alternative, we should be at least providing them with enough to keep their families properly fed. Our food allowance rates have not been revised in three years and they are not allocated with the large differences in the cost of living taken into account. This was pointed out by the special committee in the last House. I know that Mr. Dent was an active Member of that committee and was its chairperson. I know that he does not need to be reminded of what the committee recommended in those areas. He told us that himself yesterday. Mr. Speaker, the food allowance must be reviewed and made current and equitable. This is an unfinished item of business in the Education budget.

I also want to reiterate issues I raised yesterday in the Committee of the Whole, with regard to the Education budget, on which I still have specific concerns. I will mention these concerns. today.

School Community Counsellors

I am informed by the Baffin divisional board that, due to changes in the way school community counsellors are funded, the divisional board anticipates that they may be receiving funding for only 12 of the 15 positions which are now in place. They expect to have to fund the remaining three positions out of their own budget. Mr. Speaker, in our region, we need school community counsellors for every school, not just for a community, if we are to do the job right. A survey of student social and emotional and learning needs, done by the department several years ago, showed that the percentage of students needing counselling services in the NWT was higher than elsewhere in Canada. Funding in this area is particularly important if we are to see our students from community schools succeed and go on to take jobs in Nunavut. There are five communities in Baffin which will have more then one school next year. The board is already employing elders and using funds from other sources to try to meet this need. Most high schools in the rest of Canada provide counselling services for students. This counselling is academic, personal and career. I want to know how the counselling needs will be met in communities which do not qualify for school community counsellor funding, according to the current formula for allocating funding, and if counselling positions are not provided as part of community grade extensions.

Forced Growth

Mr. Dent said yesterday that if the school population grows by more than eight per cent, the divisional boards can come back to the department and request supplementary funding for the portion that is above eight per cent. That is of some comfort to me. However, being able to request supplementary funding does not mean that it will be granted. I will be wanting to ask the Minister what this really means. Is there a reserve for forced growth? Our problem in Baffin is that our enrolment is increasing about 5.5 per cent each year. If the department now only considers supplementary funding after increases of more than eight per cent, does that mean we must wait two years before the Baffin can receive supplementary funding for the number of students we have? This is made more difficult by the fact that the funding provided by the department is based on enrolment as of October of the previous year. If a percentage cut is made to the board's budget which is anticipated this year, and this cut is made after enrolments are determined, then if there are significant increases in enrolment, as in Baffin, the effect of this will be that the Baffin regional board will not be funded this year for their actual enrolments. If that is the way the formula works, that each board spends a year trying to catch up without adequate funds because they are stuck with October enrolments from the previous year, then this is built-in unfairness for the communities where enrolments are growing. Mr. Speaker, I believe that if the government is not going to fund forced growth, they should say so up front, and not hide behind formulas which do not allow the current enrolment numbers to be reflected in the current-year funding.

Teacher Education 1%.

Mr. Speaker, Arctic College and the Nunavut boards have worked very hard together to develop a five-year plan for teacher education in Nunavut. This plan is well known to the Department of Education. This plan shares resources currently used to support teacher education through the college and community-based funds as well as board funds.

I am very happy that community-based TEP programs are now in place in Nunavut: in Cape Dorset, Cambridge Bay and Coral Harbour. However, I understand that the contribution from the Department of Education for community-based programs may be less in the coming year than originally expected. I am told that this uncertainty could seriously affect the ability to continue to offer the three community-based programs in Nunavut next year. The expected reduced funding levels could jeopardize these important programs, I am told. Unfortunately, even though we are now considering the Education budget in Committee of the Whole, the boards still do not know exactly what they will be granted. This uncertainty this far along in the new fiscal year is something I am concerned about. I would hope that before we are concluded with this budget session, we will know exactly how this new budget will affect the boards of education and the programs they are running.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my reply to the Budget Address.

Thank you. The Member for High Arctic is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his reply to the Budget Address. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Continue, Mr. Barnabas.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends) One question which I am told is not now resolved and is under dispute between the Department of Education, Arctic College and the divisional boards is who pays the fees which are required to be paid every year for the students from Cape Dorset, Cambridge Bay and Coral Harbour. These fees will amount to $150,000 this year. Right now, a I understand it, the Department of Education officials are still refusing to pay for these fees for 1995-96. The college and the boards are also waiting for an answer about whether the department will be paying these fees for 1996-97. In other words, once again, on an important part of the community-based TEP program, we do not know whether or not the Department of Education will continue the level of support it provided in previous years, by paying the McGill students' costly tuition fees.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that everyone who has studied this program would agree that it has been a great success. The link which has been established between Nunavut Arctic College and the first-class Department of Education in McGill University, which has a very good reputation across Canada, has produced good results. Since 1985, a total of 57 teachers from Nunavut have completed their Bachelor of Education degrees. This compares with 35 students who have received Bachelor of Education degrees since 1969

from the TEP program in the Aurora College, which is connected to the University of Saskatchewan.

The answers to all these questions -- forced growth, student counsellor positions, tuition fees and base funding for community-based TEP programs -- will very much affect the ability of the divisional boards to do their jobs. I would like the Minister of Education to tell us where he stands on these currently outstanding issues before we finally approve the budget of this department. We should know exactly what is provided for in this budget and what is not.

Mr. Speaker, these are some of my concerns with this budget. I will hope that these comments in my reply to the Budget Address will be well received by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Education. I am hope my concerns are clearly explained and that they can be dealt with during this session or soon after. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

Thank you. I am aware that this is the final day to do replies to the Budget Address. There is an indication that there is another honourable Member to do a reply to the Budget Address. Before we continue, we will take a short break.

--- SHORT RECESS

I call the House back to order. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Mr. Erasmus.

Mr. Erasmus's Reply

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was pleased to see that this government is committed to eliminating the deficit over a period of two years. Particularly in the social programs area, it could be extremely difficult to eliminate the deficit in one year. We would have to take, as someone is prone to say, Draconian measures which would be especially difficult in the education, health and social services areas. I am glad to see that this government is implementing new initiatives to help make a transition in the social programs a rea.

Everybody seems to be in favour of eliminating the deficit; not only the MLAs, but the general public, too. The problem is that when a reduction affects someone, he or she begins to complain. But what areas should we cut? Some people say education, health and social services are very important. Other people say jobs are important. Other people say other areas are important. But if people don't want us to cut in certain areas, they should tell us, but they should also tell us where to cut because cuts have to be made. It doesn't mean as much to me if a person tells me not to cut in a certain area because that cut is going to affect that person. It means more if someone tells me not to cut and that person is not actually directly affected. For instance, if Joe Blow works for the union and he tells me, do whatever you can to ensure that wages aren't cut, I am listening to that person, but it doesn't mean the same if Harry Carry from Hard Luck Bay, who is not a union member, comes to me and tells me, don't cut wages from the union. That means more to me, because that person is not actually affected. But, if people don't want us to make cuts, then they should indicate to me and to the others here how to raise $100 million in each of the next three years, because that's what it means. If we don't make cuts, we have to raise $100 million or so in each of the next three years. If someone shows me how to do that, I will gladly work against making any cuts whatsoever.

But don't tell me I don't understand the situation. I have more information than you do. Don't tell me that I don't understand a bill that we are trying to pass or that we have passed, unless you're a lawyer. Don't tell me I don't care about union workers when I have six immediate family members and countless relatives and friends who work for government or who are directly affected by negotiations with the unions.

Once again, I approve the overall direction of the budget. I don't approve of every item. Nobody does; not Mr. Picco, not Mr. Miltenberger and not me. Sometimes you have to give in certain areas in order to keep things or to gain in other areas. As I indicated earlier, I do approve of the two year approach to balancing the budget. I also approve of the transition period for new initiatives. As Mr. Roland inferred earlier, sometimes we need to invest now to save even more in the future. New initiatives are investments. A few of them are early intervention; keeping people in school; the mortgage investment corporation; and, also, keeping an old program, keeping the business incentive program.

However, we also need to concentrate on jobs, and we need to show commitment to the people who have shown a commitment to the North. This means, when we're laying people off, that long-term Northerners should be the last to go. If they're laid off, they should be helped to find a placement in another area. They should be helped with retraining if it's required. I also support that only long-term residents should get scholarships.

I am also committed to these initiatives. I will help implement them and I will do my part in this government. That means working in my committees, doing research, making suggestions where warranted, reviewing plans, evaluating performances of departments and other related duties. I also intend to keep an eye on Cabinet to ensure that commitments are kept and programs and reductions are implemented fairly. This includes asking questions in the House. This includes setting up meetings with Ministers for people with concerns or problems. Also, if I come up with a good suggestion like electronic monitoring, I will not just take no for an answer. Before I drop my idea, I will need to be convinced it cannot save money or that it cannot improve conditions for residents of the Northwest Territories. In short, Mr. Speaker, I intend to make the Cabinet accountable and to offer constructive criticism and suggestions where

warranted. Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude that, while I support balancing the budget in two years, I want to emphasize that it is extremely important to actually balance the budget next year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Arlooktoo.

Mr. Speaker, I have a few petitions to table today. They are both on the same subject, so I will just read the preamble of one. I would like to present Petition No. 22-13(3) and Petition No. 23-13(3) and part of it says, please have any and all people in your community sign a petition to your MLA stating the following: "We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." We have 16 signatures from Qaqqalik School in Lake Harbour and 26 signatures from Sanikiluaq.

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Evaloarjuk.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two petitions. I would like to present Petition No. 25-13(3), 41 signatures from Igloolik; and, Petition No. 26-13(3), 60 signatures from Pond Inlet. 'We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Enuaraq.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present Petition No. 27-13(3), signed by 10 residents of Broughton Island. It states: "We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved."

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present Petition No. 28-13(3), signed by 53 residents of Pangnirtung. 'We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved."

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present Petition No. 29-13(3), signed by six employees of Broughton Island Health Centre, which states: "UNW Members are not the cause of the deficit; cutting positions and rolling back wages is not the solution. Cutbacks will bring hardship to the entire northern communities. Private enterprise does not work on community service. Private enterprise works for profit. Privatization will cost more. Considering the above, it is your responsibility to oppose the government's plan to cut and slash."

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present Petition No. 30-13(3), signed by 10 staff of the Pangnirtung Health Centre, which states: "We, as the staff of Pangnirtung Health Centre, union employees, are opposed to the cuts to our benefits as outlined in the collective agreement. We already receive minimum financial gratification considering our severe rent and cost of living. We are opposed to the government attacking the hard-working, taxpaying NWT workers." Thank you, Mr. Speaker.