Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, committee Members. We all know that northerners have high expectations for education, culture and employment programs. The expectations of and the direction provided by the public have shaped the budget that is before you today. The objectives outlined in my department's strategic plan will continue to influence how we reshape our programs in the face of declining resources.

Strengthening local decision-making and improvements to the quality and coordination of programs are priorities of this government. They're reflected in a lot of what we've achieved already; achievements such as: the new Education Act; improved access to information networks for schools, public libraries and community learning centres; and, the work done to reform income support, to name a few.

Achieving a lower budget target has not been easy. We've had to accommodate forced growth and base deficiencies of more than $17 million.

When we looked at where to spend our money, we ranked programs according to the importance of their key outcomes and our ability to meet the objectives and priorities of the territorial government.

So, yes, there are reductions, but let's look at the positive side. There are more than $7 million in new initiatives in this budget. I want to make sure we do all we can to strengthen early childhood and early intervention programming. I want to make sure students do better in school. I want to make sure there are more high school graduates and I want to make sure northerners are ready to take a job, particularly in mining and as Nunavut public servants.

Mr. Chairman, if we don't help out high-risk children early on, we know that they'll develop more serious problems later in life. We can make government dollars go further and help more kids if departments cooperate and we start earlier. That's why you'll see we're spending $1 million on early intervention work in the communities, in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Services.

Helping students excel and, ultimately, graduate, can be challenging in remote communities. Access to learning resources are limited. We want to change that. There is soon going to be a digital communications network linking every community in the Territories.

Better technology means lower costs to this government. Better technology lets students learn more. Smarter students mean more graduates. More graduates means a better northern workforce and healthier communities.

This department has already done quite a bit to strengthen the northern workforce. Because of the community teacher education programs, we are moving toward the goal of having 50 per cent aboriginal educators in our schools. This year, the first graduates of Aurora College's nursing program will take up positions in the North.

We want northerners to get into careers that build upon their interests and skills, so we are proposing that $100,000 be used to train community career counsellors and a significant investment be made in a labour force development plan.

Mr. Chairman, mining is a big key to our future, it's an industry that could provide jobs to hundreds of northerners in the next few years. I want to make sure we don't miss the opportunity that exists here. Department representatives, Aurora College and BHP have been collaborating on skills training programs for the mining industry. These three partners can point to the success of a workplace literacy project in Lutsel K'e, which will serve as a model for similar projects.

Preparing Inuit for positions in the Nunavut government is another priority. We will continue to plan and implement training which will prepare Nunavut residents for opportunities stemming from division.

You may have heard about Investing in People. It's an initiative that's helped adults improve their education and receive valuable work experience. Investing in People was a cost-shared program with Ottawa. It has been a success. Unfortunately, the federal government has ended its participation. As a result, the $2 million which will be spent on this program this year comes entirely from our budget and it's only one-third of last year's total.

Mr. Chairman, this department's main estimates have been developed in consultation with the Standing Committee on Social Programs. It's been a useful way to develop a budget. I think the process has resulted in a budget that better reflects the needs and interests of northerners.

When I met with the committee, we talked about how to save money in administration. The committee wanted us to look at ways to develop more economic and integrated governing structures. We've done that. We're supporting the development of the Dogrib Community Services Board. It's an example of how to increase regional efficiencies in administration. We're exploring similar options in Nunavut communities.

We will soon be presenting a plan to the standing committee on how we're going to change our income support program. We've been looking at what other jurisdictions are doing, refining the funding formula, developing community framework agreements and revising the regulations to enable this.

Improving programs and services in some areas means there must be reductions in others. When we set priorities for this budget, we were determined to protect programs and services at the regional and community levels as much as possible. In line with that, we are proposing greater reductions in headquarters and administration support; reductions of approximately 15 per cent. A significant reduction in staff positions at headquarters will be required to meet this goal.

However, because most of our money is in programs, you will have noted significant reductions in schools, colleges and continuing education contributions, as well as income support and student financial assistance. School boards and the public colleges are making tough choices to accommodate these reductions.

We are also proposing to reduce the capital program from $35 million last year to about $25 million in 1996-97. This will be done mostly by delaying many planned projects for a year. The delays won't compromise health and safety standards and there's still going to be enough room for all the students.

Mr. Chairman, I'm confident my department's budget has met the challenge of balancing the need to reduce expenditures with the need to deliver high-quality programs. I welcome your committee's questions and comments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I would now like to call on Mr. Roland to make comments on behalf of the Social Programs committee. Mr. Roland.

Standing Committee On Social Programs Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to give the report of the Standing Committee on Social Programs on the review of the business plan and budget of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment.

The standing committee recognized that implementing all of the department's proposed reductions in a single year would have a significant impact on the education system. Members also acknowledge the complications that arise from the difference between the government's fiscal year and the education boards' and colleges' financial year. However, Members are concerned that next year there may be additional reductions necessary. Spreading cuts over an extended period may mean reductions on top of prior year reductions. While the standing committee supports Investing in People to reduce their dependence on social assistance, Members believe that investment must be within the limitations of our financial situation.

At this time, the standing committee reluctantly accepts the department's three-year phase-in plan for the reductions to schools, colleges and income reform. However, the standing committee expects the Minister to be aggressive in encouraging changes which may allow the 1997-98 business plans and budgets to reflect a shorter implementation period for these reductions.

The standing committee agrees with the Minister that we need a new and more innovative approach to income reform. As program reductions are made, there must be corresponding changes which open the boundaries of the

program and blend with other resources at the community level. There seems to be many pools of funding which should be brought together, so they can be used more effectively in the community. The standing committee asked the Minister to consider a variety of options under income reform including work for pay to provide much needed services in the community. The standing committee is not proposing regular 9:00 to 5:00 work, but suggests people could assist with jobs that need to be done such as assisting elders or helping with snow removal.

The standing committee Members believe strongly that people need the opportunity to contribute to their community and have pride in work done, rather than just receiving a handout from the government. There also needs to be consideration for creating an income support system which encourages individuals to try to earn as much of their own way as possible, rather than penalizing people. The standing committee also believes that income reform should include a review of those other programs which impacts on its effectiveness. In particular, the standing committee is concerned about the relationship between income support and the rent scale for social housing. The Minister has committed to bringing forward a potential model for income reform to the standing committee by June 1, 1996. The standing committee looks forward to reviewing the model.

The standing committee feels the student services process needs to be improved and service provided closer to the community level where possible. There should also be closer contact with social assistance to ensure people are receiving support from the appropriate program. The department is currently reviewing the student financial assistance program. The standing committee looks forward to the results of this review.

The standing committee believes that offering the first two years of an education degree through the teacher education program has been very valuable. However, it is often difficult for those mature students who have completed the two-year program to leave the North to complete their degrees. The standing committee encourages the government to offer the third year of a bachelor of education and begin work to offer the fourth year as well.

The department is currently reviewing how it provides language services. The standing committee has concerns in the way services are provided by the language bureau and looks forward to reviewing the results of this review.

The standing committee thinks schools and education boards should determine for themselves how to meet the budget targets. The standing committee requested that the department provide general guidelines to the boards which would include suggestions to:

- reduce administration before programs; pursue other avenues for reducing costs by combining resources with other boards in the region; and,

- exhaust all other possible areas for reductions before cuts are considered in the formula areas, territorial schools, inclusive schooling, aboriginal languages and cultural programs.

With fewer dollars and an ever-increasing number of students, space in schools will continue to be a concern for the government. In the past, the department reviewed the need for classroom space on a school-by-school basis. However, in order to make more efficient use of our limited resources, the department is now approaching the need for space from a community-wide perspective. The standing committee is very supportive of this approach. If a community has one school which is underutilized and another which is overutilized, the standing committee agrees that better ways of sharing the space available should be the solution rather than new schools.

The standing committee reviewed the new initiatives the department proposed. Members believe that these initiatives are examples of the philosophy of investing now for greater rewards and possible savings later. The standing committee supports the philosophy and, therefore, supports the proposed new initiatives.

One of the new initiatives -- alternative government structures -- caused the standing committee some concern. When the standing committee recommended that boards and departments need to explore options for combined administrations and other efficiencies at the community and regional level, it was assumed that this would be driven from the local level. In discussing the initiative, the department indicated that they were going to phase this in and try to develop a model which might work. The standing committee believes that solutions may be different in every region. Members would like to see the initiative take place in one year rather than spread over two or more years.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Social Programs on this department.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I will ask the Minister if he would like to bring in witnesses.

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Does the committee agree?

Mr. Whitford, bring in the witnesses.

I would like to ask the Minister to introduce his witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my left is the acting deputy minister for the department, Mr. Eric Colbourne; and, on my right, the director of financial and management services for the department, Mr. Paul Devitt.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Welcome to the committee. I will open the floor to general comments. Are there any general comments? Mr. Picco.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Are there any other general comments? Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Mr. Dent, would you like to respond to the comments?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if I could respond to Mr. Picco's comments first. The Member from Iqaluit sounded like he was recommending that the Minister move to force the amalgamation of boards very quickly. We have to recognize that, having granted a level of autonomy to the regions and the regional structures, we have to work through what the future changes might be. As Mr. Ningark has alluded to, there is a concern in the regions about forcing that amalgamation. I know that the NIC report recommended that there be one board but the NTI response to that was very critical of the one-board approach. I understand that the NIC is subsequently re considering their approach.

We have to allow the people in the Nunavut region to get a handle on what they see as being the best approach and to work with them to make sure that that happens. The Member may not know that the three boards have, in fact, jointly commissioned a study to see if there are ways in which they can effectively work together while maintaining their own independent representation. The boards themselves have taken this on. I think that it's a good planning exercise but we have to let that sort of thing take its course. I think I heard in the committee report that it's essential that communities drive how they take control of the agenda. This is one way in which I would be reluctant, as Minister, to jump in and remove the level of autonomy that we have achieved with boards and force a solution. The boards have demonstrated that they are looking for solutions to cut down their costs and we have to let them have some time to do that.

In terms of consolidation at headquarters, as recommended by Mr. Picco; if you take a look at the budget, you'll see that the biggest cut was, in fact, taken at headquarters. The biggest cuts were taken there. The goal has been to keep as much money as possible in programs and to cut the administration as much as is possible along the way. In terms of cancelling capital projects; in fact, the cut from $35 million a year in capital projects to $25 million a year is an ongoing one. We are going to have less money to deliver the projects than what we had when previous five-year plans were out there. We are going to have to take a look at cancelling capital projects, I guess, but at this point in time, the projects are being deferred because it was the feeling that those projects, if they had got into the five-year capital plan in the first place, were justified. We are going to have to, given the magnitude of the reduction to our capital plan, re-examine every single project. The Member can be assured that, as the department comes forward with capital projects, each one of them will have to pass new standards as to whether or not they should proceed, based on the amount of funding that we have.

The Member has my assurance that if we have built opulence into our projects that shouldn't be there, we will be taking that out. The construction of projects has changed in the past few years; the way that schools are constructed. At one point in time, it was felt that schools without windows would be the best way to go. Our thinking has changed significantly on that and the effect that natural light may have on the ability to learn in certain circumstances. I'm not sure that adding windows necessarily adds to the cost of the buildings, but the Member can be assured that if we can find examples of what he would call opulence -- in other words, I'm taking from that, frivolous design features that may increase the cost of the project without increasing the functional ability of the school or learning centre to perform its job -- we'll certainly look at taking them out.

Mr. Chairman, I think I addressed Mr. Ningark's concern about amalgamation. In response to his question about talking to the Kitikmeot board, I have, in fact, met with the Kitikmeot board. It was before the budget was issued so the discussion was somewhat general. They were given a clear understanding that we are no longer conducting business as we were before, the fiscal game has changed significantly and that, by and large, over the next three years, all boards are going to have to cover forced growth from within the dollars they are being given this year. They have been given a clear indication of what our expectation of funding is over the course of the next three years and given a chance to plan for that. All boards have received that sort of information, although it had to be in a general sense because the budget had not been tabled in this Legislature. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. My apologies, Mr. Picco, for not letting the Minister reply to you before I called Mr. Ningark. Did you have any further comments on the review?

Yes, Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Any further comments on that, Mr. Dent?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to agree with the Member that community control is the essential and most important item that we need to see in the future of education. I think that the new Education Act will move us significantly along the road towards that increased community control.

However, not every community is going to be able to have the resources to hire a superintendent or to hire perhaps the financial expertise. There will always be a need for some of these functions to be performed at a regional level in order to keep the costs economic. I think the new act, in fact, means that the boards are not going to be, as the Member put it, in control of what happens at the local level. The new act allows local education authorities to have significant control over education in the community. We will still need to provide some services at a regional level and I think the boards are perhaps the best way of doing that in at least the foreseeable future.

In terms of the opulence question, Mr. Chairman, I think that I will welcome the Member's comments if he sees plans that he feels are opulent. I would certainly enjoy an opportunity to discuss that with him on a case-by-case basis. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ningark, do you have further comments to make under general comments?

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Would you like to respond to that, Mr. Dent?

Mr. Chairman, I believe the Member's comment was a statement rather then a question. I should perhaps point out, though, that it's not a question of moving the college from one location to another but a question of trying to provide a better balance of the distribution of courses throughout Nunavut that we are trying to achieve. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Does anyone else want to make general comments? Mr. Roland.

During the overall review of the budget, I noted that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment had an area of forced growth of $17 million and then new initiatives of $8.7 million. I was concerned with new initiatives and forced growth because of the budget predicament. At the time, I had asked if we could get some explanation of what that is and I wonder if the Minister might be able to answer that for me.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the $17 million in forced growth, $6.8 million was in a base deficiency in social assistance. When social assistance was transferred to Education, Culture and Employment from the Department of Health and Social Services, it was known to be deficient in the amount of funding that was provided; that is, in the budget that was approved in the previous year, it was already known that there would be a shortage of about $6.8 million.

The next largest part of forced growth would be in education board contributions. Were the formula not to have changed for this current fiscal year, education board contributions would have increased by $5.15 million and that is to take into account the growth in the number of students in the school system in one year.

The next largest part of growth was student financial assistance, $2.772 million; that is, to reflect again, the growth in the numbers of students who are qualified to receive student financial assistance.

As well, there is somewhat of an increase in the numbers of northerners who are qualifying for student financial assistance and they tend to have more families, so the cost per student is going up as we go along in the program.

Next was $2.126 million in forced growth in what was projected to be an increase in the number of clients accessing social assistance. So this is apart from the base deficiency which was to make up for an historical deficient situation with the budget. It was projected that there would be over $2 million in increased need in the Northwest Territories from people for the program.

The early childhood program was projected to be at an increase of $391,000 and this is a simple estimate in the increase in the number of young people who would be in early childhood spaces which this government, by a formula, helps provide funding assistance for.

The next area of forced growth was one that Mr. Enuaraq was talking about earlier today. That is the seniors' supplementary benefit. That's projected to grow by $73,000 in this fiscal year, not because of any increase to the formula but just in an increase in the numbers of seniors who will be accessing the program.

And, in the college funding allocation system, we are projecting growth of $29,000 and I'm advised that is for new facilities.

Mr. Chairman, on the initiatives that the Member is talking about that the department has proposed, does the Member want to go through those, too, on a case-by-case basis. If you would like, I can read them into the record, too, Mr. Chairman, but perhaps we can find out if we want to go through them on an individual basis, as well.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ootes.

Are they extensive? Can I refer to them quickly?

Mr. Dent.

Mr. Chairman, there are approximately nine or 10 items that I could run through, if the Member would like. There is $6.7 million that is proposed in O and M new initiatives and $2 million proposed in capital. I will list the capital items first. There is $300,000 in our budget for the building and learning strategy. In the past, the building and learning strategy has always been funded through supplementary requests to the Legislature. So this is a first in that it is shown in the main estimates. I don't think it is a new initiative; it is just because it isn't usually in here that we are showing it now.

We have $1.2 million for technology infrastructure development, which is a combination of both hard and soft infrastructure needs to make sure that all of our schools across the Northwest Territories are prepared to take advantage of the new technology, so we can improve our ability to provide distance education. This is one of the things we need to be able to improve in order to assure smaller communities that the programs being offered in their communities are of an equal calibre to the programs offered in the larger communities. There are fewer resources in terms of teachers in the smaller communities, so distance education is very important for us to be able to improve as we get into grade extensions in the smaller communities.

The next item is $500,000 for small-school senior-secondary schooling. This is just a small allocation of funds to try to assist those schools where grade extensions are scheduled to take place with minor changes that may be required to help them provide the education to high school students. In most communities, schools were built for up to grade 8 or 9. As you can understand, bringing in older students does sometimes require that there be some small physical changes made to the schools to accommodate the teaching of the programs in the schools.

Moving to the O and M side, we, as a department, have allowed $1.5 million for workforce adjustment, which may be required for downsizing initiatives within the department. As I mentioned in my opening comments, we have $2 million for investing in people. This $2 million is all coming from this government. For the past two years, there was an $8 million cost-shared program with the federal government. So there was $4 million from this government and $4 million from the federal government to provide this program. It was only a two-year program that the federal government got started on, so we knew it would end. I have been unsuccessful in getting the federal government to reconsider continuing the program, so all we have to put in is this $2 million.

As mentioned in my opening comments, we have $1 million in here for an early intervention program in which Education, Culture and Employment is playing the lead role. We are working at coordinating early intervention across the Northwest Territories with Health and Social Services and tying together the federal programs which are being offered across the Territories. With that $1 million, we are hoping to wind up with a much bigger program than we otherwise could if we can get both GNWT departments and the federal government to work together on how the programs are offered.

We have $800,000 for a labour force planning and development program. This is a combination of programs. That is broken down further into four different programs. We will be offering a pilot project on pre-engineering technology. There has been a shortage of Northwest Territories residents who we have seen taking postsecondary education in the fields of technology. So the college will be offering a pilot project this year to try to encourage more students to get involved in the technology field. We have $100,000 identified for that project.

We have $300,000 identified for mining training. This should offer programs in four different communities in the Northwest Territories. This is the sort of program I mentioned in my opening comments with Lutsel K'e. As well, it may include heavy equipment operator training, et cetera. There are a number of mining courses that the college offers. The intent is to offer these courses in Dogrib communities and in areas where the potential is best for northerners to get jobs in the mining field.

We have $200,000 identified for a labour force plan and survey. This is to ensure that the department is prepared to put its initiatives or its training dollars into those areas where we can see development taking place; in other words, making sure we are getting best bang for our buck. We need to have a planning exercise to make sure that we aren't just flying off the handle and saying we need mining training here or there. We need to make sure we have a coordinated approach. To do that we need to spend some money and time developing a plan. That is what that is intended to do.

The last $200,000 of the $800,000 is for a workplace literacy project. That is a program to ensure that we can get more people into the workforce. As the Member will know, we have a lot of unemployed people in the Northwest Territories. Their numbers tend to be disproportionately representative of those who are very poorly educated. This is an attempt to try to improve our ability to get more of those people into the workforce.

The next item we have, Mr. Chairman, is 900,000 in support for community programs, training and development. That is made up of three different subgroups. This could get to be quite long if I start breaking down all of these initiatives, Mr. Chairman. Maybe I will just give the totals and if the Member wants more detail on them, he can ask me specifically.

So the $900,000 goes to support for community programs, training and development. We have $100,000 for technology infrastructure development. We have $250,000 in O and M for the small-school senior-secondary schooling requirements. We have $150,000 for improving student achievement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Any further questions, Mr. Ootes?

No, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. O'Brien.

Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The college board of governors has a responsibility for recommending where the programs would be offered. Both the College East and West have a responsibility to try and ensure that as many programs as possible are offered in the communities. I can't, at this point in time, commit to the Member that the college will move base-funded programs into Arviat or Baker Lake. However, I do think that the college board of governors will continue to take a look at the demands for training that the residents of Nunavut place on the college and will do their best, given the fiscal resources available to them, to make sure that training opportunities are made available as broadly across Nunavut as possible. For me to predict that they will be able to move programs within the next couple of years, I can't promise that. I can promise that the board will certainly consider the Member's request. I think all Members of this House would hope that we would be able to see adult training courses throughout the Territories in all of the communities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. O'Brien.

Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Mr. Dent, would you like to respond? Was that a statement or a question?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will pass the Member's advice on to the board.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Picco, you have further general comments?

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Would the Minister like to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will take the Member's comments as advice to me and see what we can do. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is along the same lines as the last two presenters and it's with regard to the possibility of reallocating certain programs from the larger centres, especially with the question about empowering communities and regions. We have to start looking at exactly where these programs can be better served. In the past, it might have been a good idea to establish them in one location, but I think the tendency in a lot of regions ... Especially where I come from, the Inuvialuit, the Gwich'in and the Sahtu are in the process of amalgamating their pathways funding programs so that they can get more mileage out of their resources.

The same emphasis should be put on this government, where possible -- where new Arctic College facilities have been established, such as Inuvik -- to consider looking at allowing certain programs that have been carried out in other facilities such as Fort Smith. An example is the renewable resources program; I believe that in the last couple of years there has been a request, that went up to the board of governors for Arctic College, to look at the possibility of implementing the renewable resource program in Inuvik because of the land claim agreements that have been settled in that area, especially with the Inuvialuit claim, the Gwich'in and also the Sahtu. There is a component of the agreement that consists of the renewable resources section that calls for a biologist, researchers, and people to carry out the duties of the boards. There is an arrangement between the aboriginal groups, the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government to implement those claims and there's something like $10 million to do it over a period of time. With those resources, to try to get as much mileage, and also benefit the people in those regions by having them trained. There's also the geographical costs of sending people south and the question of having people close to home because of the drop-out rate.

My question is would the Minister seriously consider looking at the request of the previous board of governors to look at the possibility of moving some of these programs to regions that could benefit more in the sense of land claims settlements and a closer working relationship between the aboriginal groups in those regions; to establish more of a regional centre than a territorial centre so we could train and educate more people in a regional geographic sense rather than just a territorial facility? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, right now, the colleges make a tremendous effort to provide programs in as many communities as possible across the Northwest Territories. Given the fact that this budget that's before this House right now significantly reduces the funding to the colleges in the next year, it puts them under some pressure already. I think it's going to take them some time to respond. I will certainly pass on the Member's suggestions to the western board. I've made the commitment to pass the suggestion on to the eastern college board. I hope Members will recognize that, in these times of fiscal restraint, the organizations are having trouble right now reacting just to the budget that they're faced with and coming up with new initiatives is probably going to be problematic here in the next little while. I believe the colleges will do their best to ensure equitable access across both eastern and western territories to the programs that they offer. I'll certainly reinforce that with the boards; that that should be one of their prime goals. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments? Mr. Krutko.

Right now, there are certain programs being carried out in southern institutions where those resources could have been spent in the North through northern facilities, such as the land administration program presently being delivered in Olds, Alberta, on behalf of the Sahtu claims process.

I mentioned earlier about trying to use other resources that are out there with regard to Pathways funding and training dollars which come with the claims settlements. There are resources out there, but I think by pooling these resources together, we can possibly get a better program overall and be able to deliver it in the North which will be beneficial to everybody, not just the claimant groups or the groups that have access to other dollars such as Pathways or training dollars through comprehensive claims agreements.

So that was my point and hopefully we can seriously look at that as one of the avenues to getting as much mileage out of the resources we do have. We know there have been cutbacks and I think that in this day and age, we have to look at other alternatives to how we do business, especially in delivering programs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Would you like to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is absolutely right. We have to be very creative and aggressive in how we do business from now on. I think that third-party purchase of programs such as the Member mentioned, perhaps a lands administrator program that is being purchased in the South, is something that we should take a look at in the North. I do know that Nunavut Arctic College does offer a community lands administration program and I would hope that in future, if organizations are looking at purchasing courses down South, whether it's through Pathways dollars or land claim dollars, they'll come and talk to the college, I think you'll find that the colleges are both very interested in putting programs together where there is third-party funding available. We, too, would like to see as many programs offered in the North as possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Henry, do you want to make general comments?

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The answer to that is yes.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Henry.

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think what we are trying to do is ensure people are prepared to make productive choices in their lives, and they can do that better if they are better educated. Those productive choices could range from being better prepared to make a living off the land to being able to move to a different community and participate in the wage economy if that is their choice. If people are not well-educated though, they are not in a position to make productive choices.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Do you have further questions or comments, Mr. Henry?

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have better statistics for Nunavut, right off the top of my head, than I do for the West. For instance, as far as we know, there is not a single Inuit person who has postsecondary education who is unemployed at this point in time. There are almost none who have completed high school who are unemployed. The problem tends to be at the lower levels.

In the East, there is a significant opportunity for growth in the numbers of people who could be employed in the Nunavut government as it is set up. As things stand right now, we don't have enough people trained to take all those positions, so rather than bringing in people from the South, our goal should be to train as many people as possible to make sure that northerners can take the jobs.

In the West, I believe we have a significant opportunity coming up in terms of the non-renewable resource sector. I think there will be hundreds of jobs available in mining in the West in the next few years and, as things stand right now, we don't have enough people in the North trained to take all of those jobs.

So there are opportunities, and I believe that if we get to work and train people that we can help our residents take advantage of those opportunities. I think that there are other opportunities in the course of the next few years my honourable colleague responsible for Economic Development and Tourism will be presenting to northerners. I want to make sure that we have as many northerners as possible prepared to take advantage of those opportunities.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Do you have further questions or comments, Mr. Henry.

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Considering the time, does the committee agree that we are through with general comments and could we possibly report progress? Mr. Dent, would you like to respond to Mr. Henry?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, five years ago, we had a terrible graduation rate in the Northwest Territories. It was absolutely embarrassing. We tried the residential school solution in terms of bringing students into larger communities for high school and found it to be a dismal failure. It is early in the process of providing grade extensions to the communities to point to conclusive and resounding success, but I can tell you that the participation rate in high school has gone from about 40 per cent in 1991-92 to over 85 per cent this year. That, alone, indicates a significant promise in getting students to graduate. We have, in the last five years, doubled the numbers of aboriginal students who have graduated in the Northwest Territories. I am not as proud of that because the number is still dismally low, but it does represent a start. I would submit that the start has happened at the same time as the policy of extending grades to smaller communities was put in place.

The Member may also be interested to know that we have demonstrated that it is more cost-effective to extend grades in communities than it is to move students around. It actually costs this government less money to provide the education in their home community than it does to move students around. I would say that, given the lack of success we have had with a residential system in the past, we need to take some time to see whether or not this change in policy has some long-term benefits and effects.

The early indications were very positive, so I think we must continue down the road that we have started and give it a chance. Much in education will change as technology changes, as we become more users of distance technology and we can provide improved education to all communities in the Northwest Territories, including the smallest of communities.

So it looks like we are on the right track. We need to spend the time and the effort to follow through with the process that has been undertaken. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ningark, do you have further general comments?

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Mr. Dent, would you like to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the first Member was recommending that we invest more in providing grade extensions in the Nunavut region. I think that our policy is to provide grade extensions across the Northwest Territories, and we are putting as much effort into it as we can. The problem we face is that in the difficult financial times we have right now, it is impossible to come up with any more money than what we are proposing for schools. But I think the Member can be assured that we are working as diligently as possible in the department to encourage grade extensions across the Northwest Territories, and will continue to do that.

The Member asked about graduation rates, and I have some numbers available by board that I could provide. I don't have the total for the Nunavut region, but I can provide it by board in the Nunavut region. For instance, in the Baffin region in 1991-92, there were 21 graduates; in 1994-95, there were 39 graduates. In the Keewatin region in 1991-92, we had 20 graduates; in 1994-95, we had 14. In the Kitikmeot in 1991-92, we had six graduates; and, in 1994-95, we had seven. So, as Members can see, we certainly don't have significant numbers of graduates up till now, and I think that there needs to be a continued emphasis on getting students to stay in high school and to complete their educations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Are there any further general comments from the Members? Mr. Picco

I have a motion on the floor to report progress. Do we have a quorum? We have a motion on the floor to report progress. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

I shall now rise and report progress to the Speaker. I thank the witnesses.