Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on my left, I have the acting deputy minister of the department, Mr. Eric Colbourne; and, on my right, the director of finance and administration, Mr. Paul Devitt.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am very happy to hear the Member say that education is his first priority. I share the Member's ranking of priorities in this issue and believe that education must remain our first priority. I think we have a real opportunity that faces us now, that's the number of jobs which will be created with the creation of Nunavut. This will provide some new employment in the Nunavut region. The Member is absolutely correct, we have in place a good part of the infrastructure which is needed to deliver the training with the college campuses in the Nunavut region.

The Member asked if the $40 million could be administered by the colleges or the department, and I am certainly willing to say that we could administer it. Obviously, with the

infrastructure being in place right now, we, too, hope that the training funds will be funnelled through the college to ensure that we take advantage of the infrastructure that's in place. There will have to be some agreement between all of the parties to allow us to administer those funds, but we're hopeful that we will see that sort of agreement, rather than having a whole new infrastructure being set up to provide the training. The concern is that if that infrastructure has to be recreated by a different body, you spend more money on infrastructure and less of it actually gets into training for residents of Nunavut.

So, yes, we do have a training plan. Can I share it with the House right now? No, because at this point in time it's in draft stage and is just going out for consultation with the beneficiary groups. We need to get some input from them, then, perhaps, make some revisions before the plans are finalized. But the plans will be public as of July 9th, and we can commit that these will be public. I think each department is required to post them in a public place after July 9th. So this will be a very public training program.

The Member also asked if the college plans for training could be enhanced; for instance, management training in Iqaluit. The college has largely depended on third-party funding in order to provide its training programs across the North. So, certainly, if this $40 million that the Member has referred to can be directed to the college for training programs, it would allow the training to be as broadly based as is possible. I would see no reason why, for instance, if the partners all agreed that management training should be offered in Iqaluit, it could not be offered there with third-party funding. I think that responds to all the Member's direct questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was trying to indicate to the Member that what has to happen is

an agreement of the partners involved as to how that money would be spent. I did indicate that that is certainly one possibility, that the program could also be offered in Iqaluit.

The first year of the base-funded program is scheduled to move to Rankin Inlet, but that does not mean that the program could not be offered in both Rankin and Iqaluit if the funds are available. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is similar to what my colleague stated regarding management training. My question to the Minister is with regard to the program dollars we do have, especially in light of the dismal rate we have in the West when it comes to aboriginal managers within the government. When it comes to affirmative action, we are lacking in the percentages. Are there any possible resources within this budget to allow the other aboriginal groups to have a similar opportunity to what is presently being negotiated with the Inuit from the East and also the federal government, through their comprehensive claim agreement? Are those resources in the departmental budget for other groups to have a similar opportunity to establish management training programs for the other aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories, especially in the West?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the $40 million to which Mr. Enuaraq was referring is not within the department's budget. I think the resources that are being provided to the colleges, both east and west, are being utilized as efficiently as possible to provide as much of the training as possible across the North.

The difficulty we face, given the reduction in financial targets this year, is that both colleges, east and west, in their base funding, are taking a significant decrease. It presents a challenge to both college boards for them to manage that. I think one of the results will be that both boards will be extremely aggressive in seeking out third-party funding.

The Member will probably be aware that there has been a change, for instance, in how Pathways funding is being channelled from the federal government to aboriginal groups this year. I would say the college would certainly welcome a creative partnership with an aboriginal group in the West to put a program together to offer management training where it is most needed. I would hope that we could see some of those partnerships develop. The colleges are prepared to work with any agency that has funds to purchase training. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the present time, the Department of Education, through Arctic College, does administer a management program, don't they?

Mr. Chairman, I'm not absolutely positive that the western college does offer that program. I believe they do, but I would have to quickly whip through a fair-sized book in order to ascertain for sure that it is offered. I don't have a calendar for the college in front of me at the moment to check it out and advise the Member.

While you're looking for the answer, the point I'm trying to make is that I'd like to get some assurance from the Minister that there will be serious consideration given to affirmative action candidates and the shortage of aboriginal managers that we have within this government and in other areas. We should seriously consider that we also have the opportunity that is presently being offered to the East for division; and, being able to meet the goal of 50 per cent Inuit within the government bureaucracy by 1999. That we also have the same opportunity in the West to meet the goals that the previous government has tried to accomplish with dismal results. We should somehow keep considering this as a priority and that we do make an attempt to have affirmative action candidates. When it comes to aboriginal people in the West, they should have the opportunity to become managers within this government; not just be service people but also look at the management end. When it comes to a deputy minister and the senior level of the bureaucracy, that we do have a percentage of aboriginal people within those levels of government.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Having found an Aurora College calendar, I can now confirm that in the West we offer three management studies courses: management studies; the community administration certificate course; and, the first two years of a bachelor of administration program.

On the Member's question with regard to training, each department is responsible for ensuring that it lives up to this government's commitment to affirmative action. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment provides training for departments of this government, usually through Arctic College. We would certainly be willing, if departments are prepared to provide the seat purchase to ensure that the training is done through the colleges, as the Member suggests. The difficulty we have is that ... I shouldn't say the difficulty we have ... Let me rephrase that, Mr. Chairman. At the moment, the Member is referring to a $40 million training commitment made by the federal government for Nunavut. At this point in time, I don't know how that $40 million is going to be spent. All of it may be funnelled through the colleges or none of it may be. At this point in time, we are hoping that we will come to an agreement with the partners and that it will be funnelled through the college. We believe that is the way to have the greatest number of people trained.

We don't have a similar pot of money offered to the West, at this point in time. It becomes problematic for me to ... I can't commit, whether it's East or West, that the college is going to provide the training. We are hopeful in the East that we will be able to take advantage of those funds. In the West, at the present time, we don't even have an offer of similar funds so I don't even have anybody with whom to negotiate to try and get the money into the system for training. I recognize the Member's concern and I think that, given the funds, we will do the job do the best of our ability. The problem is one of getting a commitment for the funds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You touched on the issue of departments having funds in their budgets for training individuals. The problem I have with that is that we go through a process of interviewing people and then hiring people with high potential, especially from southern Canada, who have gone to universities. It seems like a lot of money is spent in the area of educating these people after we have hired them with, supposedly, experience to do these jobs. It seems like a lot of resources are spent on training individuals -- a lot of whom come from southern Canada to fill these positions with this government -- we're having to pay them a large wage and on top of that, train them. Sometimes it boggles my mind. Who are these training programs for? The managers or the individuals that work underneath them? I've heard from several of my constituents, who work within the bureaucracy of this government, who have a real concern about that; that they do not have the opportunity, as aboriginals, yet, a lot of these dollars are spent on training southern-hired individuals who acquire a job with the Government of the Northwest Territories because of their so called high qualifications earned at southern institutions. However, when they come to northern Canada, we have to educate them because of where we live and how these programs are delivered.

We should seriously look at how that program is being administered by those departments and figure out if we are getting the best bang for our buck when it comes to the Department of Education; and who is really benefiting from these programs. My view is that we should seriously look at where those dollars can be best spent and who exactly the long-term benefit is for: an individual or the Northwest Territories? A lot of these individuals may not live here for the rest of their lives. But for aboriginal people, where do we go? This is home. This is where we will probably live and die. That's something that has to be considered with regard to how you deliver these programs, especially in the management area.

(Microphone turned off) ... they do have statistics with regard to who these departments have sent to these management programs and exactly how many of these people are senior people within the bureaucracy versus the people who are trying to work their way up the ladder to eventually manage these programs.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I indicated, it's not the choice of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment who is selected for training by each department. That is something that each department is responsible for. Education, Culture and Employment only delivers the course. It's not up to me, as the Minister, to say that so and so should get the course or so and so shouldn't get the course. The colleges just provide the course to the people for whom it is requested by the departments. It might be interesting for the Member, though, to know that in one course that's offered, the management training program -- which is a public service career training program and a full-time trainee program -- we have gone from, in 1990-91, 96 per cent of the participants being aboriginal trainees to, in 1995-96, 100 per cent of the students being aboriginal trainees. These are already government employees who are being provided with training in order to assist them, usually, to achieve management or officer positions within the government.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Member was asking about support for people who are training to become teachers. I guess I would say that the support we provide to all students, whether they're learning to be social workers or teachers or any other occupation, is the same standard of support according to our program standards.

The Member referred to us using Alberta standards. Again, I'm not sure, but I suspect the Member is asking about using the Alberta curriculum. One of the things we do use, especially in high school, is the Alberta grade 12 departmental exams in order to provide some indication of comparability in terms of how our students are doing. Being a very small jurisdiction, it would be very expensive for us to set up our own system for exams.

I guess I should point out that, in recognition of the fact that we do have significantly different cultures in the Northwest Territories, the department has developed an Inuktitut curriculum, called Inuuqatigiit, which is available for K to 9 right now, and is being developed for all the way through to grade 12. That should be available all across Nunavut fairly soon.

I believe the Member asked whether or not we could provide assistance to people who wanted to become teachers who do not have grade 12. In fact, most of our teacher education programs do have an access year before the actual teacher education program. So we do have access programs available to help people upgrade their skills so they are prepared to get into a teacher education program. Those are all the questions I remember, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has, for a number of years now, had the stated goal of achieving a 50 per cent ratio aboriginal teachers in the Northwest Territories, that's both East and West. In the East right now, I believe we are at approximately 44 per cent. It would appear that we would exceed 50 per cent by the year 1999-2000, and be well on our way to achieving a representative workforce within the time frames envisioned according to what the signatories to the NFA have agreed to. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm quite pleased with the programs that the government has come out with, with regard to colleges and training for adults. I'm also quite impressed with the department's make-work programs, where social dollars are turned into training dollars. I would also support further activities in this area. I think there is lots more room for expansion in this particular area. The people in my region would prefer to work on training programs and, at the same time, construct some forms of infrastructure that are needed, through the colleges, rather than take social dollars. I think the department should look at further expansion of Arctic College in Inuvik that would basically work towards addressing this request from the people.

I also have questions regarding the $40 million that has been announced by the feds for the Nunavut territory for training purposes. I note that this government has identified $44 million this year in this budget for Nunavut land claim implementation. I presume this is the same program. Maybe I could get some clarification from the Minister on that point.

The other point I have is I presume that our colleges are operating just about on maximum at this point in time. I'm beginning to wonder where we could possibly accommodate the federal government to implement $40 million worth of further training in the Nunavut area. Do we have the facilities? If we have already filled up all of Arctic College with our programs, how can we expend this different money to be able to address this training requirement before 1999? 1 don't know if the Minister is prepared to answer that at this point in time.

I guess the real question is is there room to accommodate the feds if, in fact, the $40 million that they're talking about is different than the training programs we already have in preparation for Nunavut. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the Member was initially talking about the program Investing in People when he was talking about training programs that he thought were quite effective in his region. The Investing in People and northern skills development program were jointly funded by the Northwest Territories and the federal government, to the tune of $8 million. It was a

two-year project. The federal government only committed to two years, and that program is sunsetted and they have not indicated that they will continue with sharing the funding on it. So recognizing how important those programs are and how successful they've been, one of the initiatives we have included in our budget is some funding to keep that type of program going. Unfortunately, because we don't have the cost sharing with the federal government anymore, we have $2 million in this budget and that's all there is going to it in the next year. So there will be a serious impact on the amount of training, compared to what has happened in the past two years, that we will be able to provide this coming year. In the next fiscal year, it will mean almost a reduction by two-thirds in the amount of training over what we had been providing in the communities throughout the Northwest Territories.

The Member also suggested that we expand in the Inuvik region to handle more of those programs. If we had the money for the training, we could certainly take a look at doing that. It becomes a bit of a problem if we don't have the money to deliver the training.

The Member asked whether the $40 million we've been talking about this afternoon is the same as the $44 million that you see in your budget. The answer is no, it's not. In saying $40 million --the amount that Mr. Enuaraq referred to and that I've been talking about -- we've been rounding off a number which was actually $39.8 million, which was part of the $150 million that Mr. Irwin announced is available in incremental funding for the creation of Nunavut. That's not the same as the $44 million the Member asked about. I think we need to remember that that $39.8 million is spread over four years. That means we're not even talking about $10 million a year.

Can we handle the training? Yes, we can. The amount of third-party work the college has undertaken to now has prepared the colleges to pick up whenever there is extra money available for training. As I have indicated, we are going to see a significant reduction in the amount of money that we have available for training across the Territories because of the sunsetting of the program we were involved in, called Investing in People.

In the last fiscal year, for instance, we spent, between the federal contribution and the GNWT contribution, $6 million in training. The federal government purchased an additional $2 million in training. On top of that, Pathways funding was used to purchase training through the colleges. That $6 million has disappeared. We've managed to replace it with $2 million. The $2.3 million that Human Resources Development Canada was previously spending per year in the Northwest Territories has just disappeared; there's nothing to replace it. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we can certainly put that money to work and we are prepared to deliver the training right away. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us a brief explanation as to what this Nunavut land claim implementation money is?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be difficult for me, in particular, to answer what it is. This is money that has been announced by the federal government as being available for incremental funding. At this point in time, I don't know how those funds are going to be handled. There will have to be $39.8 million. We don't know ... I get from the Member's signals that he's referring to the $44 million. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I could ask for clarification? Is that $44 million the Member refers to in the Department of Education, Culture and Employment budget?

Mr. Chairman, I'm referring to the money identified on page 14-32. It's referring to Nunavut land claim implementation money. My question is how much of that $44 million is education money, if any?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The $44 million that the Member is referring to on page 14-32 is $44,000, not $44 million. This is vote 4/5, which means that this money is provided by the federal government.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, at the present time, we're not sure that there is a lack of space in the schools in Yellowknife. We are proposing that a collaborative process take place, which would involve the two Yellowknife school boards, the French parents ... the conseil scolaire for Yellowknife, as well as the residents of Ndilo, in a process to map out what is needed in terms of capital development in Yellowknife. The situation is such that we believe that there's only about an 80 per cent usage overall of the facilities in Yellowknife, which does leave some room for expansion in the population; probably as fast as housing could expand in the town easily. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, as was noted in the standing committee's response to the department's business plan, we have changed our approach in how the school spaces are funded and how we provide space in schools for communities. The new policy is that for one student there is one space. The Member appears to be absolutely right: that if you take out the old St. Patrick High School, the level of utilization would approach 92 per cent. That still leaves 322 seats available, which is a fair number of seats for an influx. As I said, we can deal with an influx if that is what happens. I don't know that we would necessary build for dramatic growth without knowing that it was going to happen.

The Member asked about renovations for the old St. Patrick High School. That will be one of the considerations of the group that we are proposing to put together in terms of how capital dollars will be spent in Yellowknife in the next few years. We have a limited number of capital dollars available. We want the community to know what those dollars are and let the community and the elected officials in the community determine how those capital dollars should be spent.

Over the course of six years, it is $16 million or $17 million that we have identified in the five-year plan. The question is how that should be spent. I can't say that the money is going to go one place or another. As I noted in my opening comments, there has been a reduction in the capital plan throughout the department of $10 million this year alone. Over the course of the next three years, we are going to have $30 million less than what we had when the last five year plan was published. That means there are going to be significant impacts in all communities as to the timing of what was seen in the previous five-year plan. The previous five-year plan is no longer what we are working from. I can't make the commitment the Member seeks. What I am hoping is that the school boards and the community will get together and determine how they would like to see the limited capital dollars we have spent in a collaborative process over the next few years.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The was no firm commitment made to that. It wasn't part of the deal that was signed off. I believe there was an understanding and an undertaking by the department that in the future, the facility would need to be renovated. It was in the previous five-year plan that I referred to and there was definitely an indication that funds would be made available. I don't know that we have said they aren't available; but given the magnitude of the change in what is available for the whole community and the need for us to take a look at how capital dollars are now being spent, it may be in the best interests of the community to reconsider all the options. The timing for the delivery of those funds is significantly delayed, if that remains one of the priorities of the board.

Mr. Chairman, I am not sure which specific school the Member is referring to but, typically in the capital plan, the priorities were set with those projects which were under way, the planning was substantially complete or in the case of a project where a negotiated contract had been approved by the previous government, for instance, those ones carried on. Major construction projects which were under way were carried on. Then the first priority changed to become ... Let me go back to budgeting priorities. The first priority was to complete multi-year projects which were under way and then we went through a ranking of new capital projects. To rank a new capital project, the priorities were first for life, health and safety concerns; the second ranking came to those with space shortfalls; third was for those with program deficiencies; fourth for space upgrades; and, fifth, for building technical upgrades.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, taxation is always a complex issue. There has been, in the past, a study of property taxation and consideration of other alternatives for raising taxes in communities in the North. I have discussed with the Minister of Finance the situation where Yellowknife is treated significantly differently than other communities. It is something that working with the Minister of Finance and other Members of this House, we are going to have to take a look at over the next few years to ensure that people are satisfied that there is fairness and equity in the system. I don't have a short answer for the Member because it isn't the department's responsibility to raise taxes. That would be an overall government initiative, but the issue has been raised and is one we are going to have to look at over the next few years.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In response to Mr. Barnabas, I believe he is referring to the $39.8 million the federal government is offering over four years for training. My understanding is that those funds are available for training people to work in the bureaucracy of Nunavut. In terms of creating a curriculum, the department has already developed a curriculum called lnuuqatigiit, which is complete for kindergarten to grade 9 and in the process of being implemented for grades 10 to 12. That is something that is completely separate from the training fund. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I noticed in the Minister's opening statement yesterday, a comment which I would like to make reference to that they are proposing greater reductions in headquarters and in administration support; reductions of approximately 15 per cent. Significant reductions in staff positions at headquarters will be required to meet this goal. Are these reductions already incorporated into the budget or are these being proposed in future?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The positions are incorporated in this budget.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister tell me how many staff reductions were involved at headquarters?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At headquarters, there were 25 person years reduced, 16 of which were vacant positions, four were term positions to March 31, 1996, only five people had to be laid off and two have already been redeployed within the department. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Utilization may not have anything to do with the need for a renovation of a facility. We have some schools in the Northwest Territories that are relatively new that are in very bad condition. We have others that are even older than the old St. Pat's that are still in use and have not been significantly renovated since they were built. It is difficult to explain exactly why one might be done in one year and one not in another. The utilization rate may not be relevant when it comes to talking about renovations to a school. There could be a technical problem. There could be a problem that has developed since the construction and perhaps it was a poorly-built school in the first place. That is always a possibility.

Mr. Chairman, we don't have that information available at our fingertips. It would be safe to say many. That would be a good answer. I am not sure if I can say most, but many is certainly the case.

Mr. Chairman, I forgot to indicate something. Mr. Henry had asked if he could have a copy of our capital priority ranking sheet. I would be quite happy to share that with Mr. Henry and any other Members of the committee who would like to see it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is regarding aboriginal languages. There seems to be a shortage of funds when it comes to hiring individuals to carry out the teaching of these programs. Has money been allocated this year to ensure there will be aboriginal teachers available to schools where the curriculum is being developed or delivered?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could ask the acting deputy minister to answer that question. I think he has more information on it than I have.

Are you saying there is money available there to administer these programs for this fiscal year?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's built into the formula. It's in different places, but the answer is yes.

Just a minute, Mr. Chairman, I want to provide some statistics in my response, which I believe are in my book here but I have to find them.