Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Member please give me an example and clarify his question?
Debates of Jan. 28th, 1997
Topics
Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 238
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 238
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Clarification, Mr. Picco.
Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
Edward Picco Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that if in the community of Hardluck Bay that community wants to take over DPW through the community empowerment initiative, there is liability associated with the work that has gone on before, and in most of the cases. Does the Minister of the day of that department, it could be MACA, it could be DPW, have to relinquish the department's liability and pass that liability on to the hamlet? The concern here, Mr. Speaker, is that the Insurance Bureau of Canada has been given some of these hamlets that have taken on these responsibilities, problems with their insurability under the community empowerment initiative. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Ms Thompson.
Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand his question. Under the community empowerment initiative, when they are prepared to take on responsibilities they will negotiate with departments and be trained on the responsibilities, and the communities will be trained to take on the responsibilities. Thank you. (Translation ends)
Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Picco.
Supplementary To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
Edward Picco Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for clarification the question concerned the liability, the insurance liability of the government. When the Minister of the Crown transfers responsibilities of an individual department or program areas to a hamlet, or a town, or a municipality, there are certain liabilities that are waived by the Minister of the Crown. My question to the Minister again, is what is the contingency on this liability? What is the payment? Does MACA, for example, provide extra insurance coverage for these municipalities? The information that I have been provided is that lots of these municipalities, after the delivery of community empowerment services, have had problems with Insurance Bureau of Canada, or whatever to get insurance because of the liability contingency. So, the question was not answered, or I am rephrasing my question for the benefit of the Minister.
Supplementary To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Ms Thompson.
Further Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All the negotiations that take place regarding taking on the responsibility, it seems like there are questions that are not very clear so I will take the question as notice. Thank you. (Translation ends)
Further Return To Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Question 150-13(4): Municipal Liabilities Through Empowerment
Item 6: Oral Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Thank you. Question period is over. Item 7, written questions. Mrs. Groenewegen.
Written Question 2-13(4): Family Planning Programs
Item 7: Written Questions
Page 239

Jane Groenewegen Hay River
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have never done a written question before so this is addressed to the Honourable Charles Dent, Minister for Education, Culture and Employment. What programs does the government have in place to assist our residents, particularly young people, in the area of sound family planning decisions? If such a program exists, at what age does the discussion of such topics commence? Thank you.
Written Question 2-13(4): Family Planning Programs
Item 7: Written Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Thank you. Written questions. Mr. Krutko.
Written Questions 3-13(4) Chief Julius School Gymnasium
Written Question 2-13(4): Family Planning Programs
Item 7: Written Questions
Page 239

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education, Tetlit Zheh Construction presently constructing the Chief Julius School in Fort McPherson, and the full sized gymnasium. Would the honourable Minister of Education please explain to me why Tetilt Zheh Construction will not be paid for the construction for the full size gym? Would the Minister please identify the exact dollar amount of insurance monies that was received for the Chief Julius School burning? Would the Minister of Education indicate the exact dollar amount that has been received for the Chief Julius School?
Written Question 2-13(4): Family Planning Programs
Item 7: Written Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. We will take a 15 minute break.
-- Break
Written Question 2-13(4): Family Planning Programs
Item 7: Written Questions
Page 239
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Item 10, replies to budget address. Mr. Picco.
Replies To Budget Address 1-13(4) (picco)
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Page 239
Edward Picco Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin my response to the 1997-98 budget of this government, delivered by Minister Todd, by reviewing some of the statements made by the Minister yesterday.
Mr. Speaker, Mr. Todd announced the deficit picture has shown improvement and that the forecast for the accumulated deficit should fall from $65 million to less than $57 million by 1998. Mr. Speaker, that is good news.
Like many of the other MLAs, I wanted to try and balance the budget in the first year of this government, but realized that a new time frame of two years was needed. We are now beginning to see the efforts of the downsizing and reductions. Mr. Speaker, I have not been a fan of many of the reductions and cut backs. I was against the closure of Personnel. I was against the elimination of the regional directors and voted against the Public Service Act.
Mr. Speaker, yesterday Mr. Todd was quoted in the media as saying, he did not see much opposition coming from the Members about this new budget as we all had a part to play in it. Well, to a degree, that may be correct. But I did not come here to rubber stamp everything that is put in front of me. As the debate and the cuts to different areas become clear to the people of the Northwest Territories, I will be asking for clarification and hopefully reversal of some of the decisions made.
Mr. Speaker, the 13th Assembly has had many difficult decisions to make. Many as a result of the spend-free attitude of previous Assemblies. At the end of the day, this must be remembered. Mr. Todd said that we cannot afford to expect funding levels to grow annually from Ottawa as in the past. He also said that discussions with Mr. Martin about a funding floor that would help out our deficit and difficult situation. I encourage Mr. Todd to get aggressive in this area, as the federal government accounts for more than 80 percent of our revenues.
Mr. Speaker, in Mr. Todd's own way, he had a laugh when commenting to various media yesterday, that Mr. Picco wants to tax bingos and bring in VLTs. I guess the implication here being that I was some type of zealous, gambling, revenue fan. As Mr. Todd is fond of saying, there is leakage at every level and I think that comment showed that leakage also occurs at the ministerial cerebral level. As I explained yesterday when you read the Hansard, that is not what I said.
But yesterday was Mr. Todd's day to shine and I do not begrudge him a parting shot at yours truly, because I can take as good as I give. The budget address did little to demonstrate new revenue generation ideas that I continually mention in this House. When will the Minister take serious revenue generation? By announcing no new taxes, world wide that would be met by jubilation by most voters. Mr. Speaker, revenue generation can be achieved outside the realm of taxation. Mr. Todd's finance staff needs to revisit this area. We cannot seem to generate much new revenue and thus we have to reduce, lay-off and close down. Has Mr. Todd factored in the 900 plus jobs of construction at the BHP camp over the next 18 months? Is he moving forward like other jurisdictions to capture more revenue from non-renewable resource exploration and mining? There was no indication of this in the budget.
The budget address did not talk about continued problems with the downsizing and reductions. Every less job means less income tax paid to this government, and as a result less revenue for the government and an increase in our social assistance roles. Our people need hope. Where is the long awaited job strategy and housing strategy? On page 5 of the budget address, Mr. Todd says that the government has removed itself from functions that can be done better by the private sector. In reality, Mr. Speaker, there has been no evaluation that I am aware of that categorically states that this is the case. We hope, as a government, that privatization does this better, but it may be two or three years from now before we can evaluate that.
Mr. Todd, in his budget address, explained the commitment from this government with division. To be fully able to comment on this area, it is important that the division transition plans of the government be reviewed in the context of Nunavut and the western Arctic. Any division discussion from this point to April 1, 1999 will be contingent on the gross expenditure bases of both new territories. The cloud on the horizon that Mr. Todd pointed out is the incremental and transitional costs to set up two new territories and where this money will come from and how much.
The current joke going around is, what is the difference between John Todd and God? God does not think he is John Todd. Well, Mr. Todd might need some divine intervention now to help balance this budget. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Todd's second budget will try and deliver the first annual surplus in several years but the acid test will be at what cost to the services, programs and people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Todd. Thank you, colleagues for not walking out on me this time when I delivered my reply to the budget address.
-- Applause
Replies To Budget Address 1-13(4) (picco)
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Page 240
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Picco. Replies to the budget address. Mrs. Groenewegen.
Replies To Budget Address 1-13(4) (picco)
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Page 240

Jane Groenewegen Hay River
Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent to return to recognition of visitors in the gallery.
Replies To Budget Address 1-13(4) (picco)
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Page 240
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
The Member for Hay River is seeking unanimous consent to return to item 5. Do we have any nays? There are no nays. You have unanimous consent. Mrs. Groenewegen.
Replies To Budget Address 1-13(4) (picco)
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Page 240

Jane Groenewegen Hay River
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not often have constituents from my riding in the House and today it is a pleasure to recognize Mr. Rick Connors, the Director of Eastern Arctic Operations for Northern Transportation Company Ltd.
-- Applause
Replies To Budget Address 1-13(4) (picco)
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Page 240
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Welcome to the Assembly. Replies to the budget address. Item 11, petitions. Item 12, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Erasmus.
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Page 240
Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Government Operations is pleased to present its report on the 1997-98 Main Estimates Review.
In October, 1996, the standing committees reviewed the draft business plans of the various government departments. As a result of the reviews, we made recommendations for change and requested more information. Departments then prepared the draft main estimates. These were reviewed by the standing committees in early December. On behalf of the standing committees, we would like to express our appreciation to the Ministers and their staff. They have spent considerable time preparing these budgets. Many departments have made great efforts to provide the information committees needed in order to make informed decisions.
Securing our financial future continues to be the number one priority. Until we do this, many of the other priorities will be hard to achieve. We agreed that developing a more efficient and effective government structure was our second priority. It is closely linked to our financial situation and is the area we have been focusing on.
Mr. Speaker, the 10 priorities are, to secure our financial future, to develop a more effective and efficient government structure, to improve social conditions, to improve economic conditions, to empower communities, to work towards community wellness, to make Nunavut and the new western territory a reality, to take action on aboriginal issues, to take control of our own future and to be heard at the national level. After agreeing on the priorities, we then identified broad areas of interest which members looked for during the standing committee reviews of the 1997-98 budgets.
The first broad area of interest is that we need to be less dependent on federal government revenues. We currently receive more than 80 percent of our revenues through our grant from the federal government. We have very little revenue from economic activity. The Minister of Finance has talked about the difficulty in raising new revenues in the past. We do not think the problem is as much revenues as it is facing the challenge to become more effective in how we use that revenue to meet the needs of the people of the territories. We should continue to encourage more revenues through promoting economic and job opportunities in areas such as tourism, mining, and the fur industry.
Second, we need to support the development and wellness of our people. Members recognize that in order to achieve our priorities people need to be prepared to contribute to society and the economy. Social and economic development are intrinsically linked but in the social envelope we see a need to support efforts in areas of training, prevention, intervention and rehabilitation. There is a clear need, as well for a job strategy so we make sure there are opportunities for northern residents.
Third, it is time to reconsider our standards. One area we felt could be looked at was the area of standards. This government has set standards, particularly in terms of community infrastructure, entitlements based on a very healthy financial picture. For example, we provide a broad range of services and infrastructure to very small communities, which in the past would have been considered out post camps. Is it realistic to continue doing this? These types of standards need to be reviewed in light of the financial realities.
Members are also concerned about standards in that, there seems to be consistencies in the standards used for similar services or programs across the government. For example, each department sets its own capital standards. There may be co-ordination initially at the community level in determining needs, this seems to break down as departments review needs from their perspective, rather than from a community perspective. There are inconsistencies between different departments and the standards or eligibility criteria for similar or related programs. Now that the major work to achieve a balanced budget is in place, it is time to refine programs and services. Part of this effort should be to address standards.
Fourth, we need to look at capital. On capital spending, we raised the possibility of alternate ways of paying for capital. Mr. Todd indicated that the government was looking at the possibility of moving to a system for financing capital projects more like the private sector and some other governments across the country. We encourage that work to continue as quickly as possible.
In August 1996, the standing committee indicated it would be supportive of capital projects, which are essential to serve the basic needs of the community. This would include projects such as schools, health centres, housing, basic water and sewer, and primary transportation links, such as main roads and where it was necessary, for supplies. Projects which did not fit these criteria were closely scrutinized by standing committees. In the area of capital, we do have a concern about the fairness and equity of the allocation. Committees look carefully at this allocation. One particular issue, is the discrepancies between the levels of support for tax and non-tax based municipalities.
Fifth, we cannot maintain programs without people to run them. The committee wanted position cuts to be minimized, unless there was a definite demonstration that those positions were redundant or unnecessary. When we looked at position cuts, we looked for the associated program cuts, as well.
Sixth, subsidies and grants need to make sense. Members recognize that in many cases, the primary beneficiaries of subsidies and grants are those living in our smaller communities. We are not looking to take more away from those who have less, however, we agree that there is a need to look at integration and overlap in subsidies.
Seventh, we need to look at how we support northern businesses. There are a number of areas which Members feel should be addressed in how we support northern businesses. As one Member said, buy north should be a state of mind. However, the reality is that it is not. We do need appropriate policies and procedures to ensure this happens. However, it must be done in a reasonable way. Members feel that, in particular, the process for negotiated contracts and leases and the ordering and purchasing policies of this government should be reviewed. We must ensure that the level of subsidy provided to northern business is reasonable and makes economic sense, and we look forward to the final result of the business incentive policy review.
Eighth, we need input from all levels of government. A number of Members have been talking to individuals within the government who have good ideas. It would appear that they were not given ample opportunity to share their first hand knowledge of how we could become more efficient and effective. Members believe that we need to find a way to get the input. Not just of senior managers, but of anyone within the organization who has a good idea. There should be an opportunity at the beginning of each business planning cycle, to sit together as a Caucus and affirm our direction and priorities. For 1998-99, we would suggest that a caucus meeting on priorities be held prior to targets being set for departments and the detailed work beginning. The standing committees are mandated to review the business plans and main estimates of the government. In order to do this, we must have adequate information. This is particularly important when Members are being asked to support major program changes or structural reorganizations.
While Members do not always want to know the specific details, they must receive information to demonstrate that the department has done careful analysis of the change and understands the impacts of the change, both in specific program clients and in other programs. In most cases, committees are asking for information, which the department must already have. This is the information we assume they use to justify the proposed change to their Minister.
Many departments have done an excellent job of providing full information on an issue. This has allowed the standing committees to quickly review the information and make a decision on a change proposed. However, the committees have concerns about the information provided by some departments. The key problems are as follows.
First, some information seemed to be superficial and did not clearly demonstrate the need for the program change in question. And, second, information was slow in coming to committees. In some cases, it has still not arrived. In fact, the final report from the Standing Committee on Social Programs cannot be prepared yet, because there are two departments in the social envelope where information is still outstanding, even after the Minister of Finance has introduced his budget in this House. The standing committee is concerned about the level of detail in the budgets of some departments. In November, we specifically requested that the government provide additional budget detail for Health and Social Services, Education, Culture and Employment and the NWT Housing Corporation.
For the majority of Members and the public, their opportunity to scrutinize the budgets of most departments comes during the review of the main estimates in the House. When a department which controls 20 percent of the total government budget shows that budget in three large activities, it is very difficult for people to comment in any productive way on the programs buried within these activities. The Standing Committee on Social Programs appreciates that the Ministers are willing to provide the necessary level during committee meetings. However, this does not give other Members and the public access to a level of detail which allows informed discussion. We understand that larger financial breakdowns allow flexibility for the department to deliver programs and services. However, we believe there must be a balance between this flexibility and a more detailed disclosure of the financial allocations within our department.
It is not acceptable that the accounting structure of the Departments of Health and Social Services and Education Culture and Employment leaves 45 percent of all 1997-98 expenditures hidden in six activities.
Mr. Speaker, the following will be moved in committee of the whole when we are on general comments later today. The Standing Committee on Government Operations recommends that the Legislative Assembly not consider the budgets of the Departments of Health and Social Services and Education, Culture and Employment until the government tables the proposed 1997-98 budgets for those departments by financial detail to the task level.
Further, the standing committee recommends that the Legislative Assembly not consider the budget of the NWT Housing Corporation until the government tables the corporation's proposed 1997-98 budget with financial detail to the division level. Additionally, we were disappointed that, aside from the Aurora Fund, there is no concrete action arising from the investment search last summer. We understand that there are some issues which must be dealt with before the other programs can come into place. We hope the Minister of Finance will be in a position shortly to make announcements about the potential investment program opportunities.
An overall concern from the standing committees reviews, was about the community empowerment initiative. There is a clear sense that things may be moving more quickly than either the communities or the departments can accommodate. The potential for failure or serious problems is there, and again, we urge the government to be cautious, and approach community empowerment in a planned, and well thought out manner. In the governments response to Footprints 2, there was an indication that the government intends to develop revised business plans, which take division into account. The standing committees look forward to reviewing those revised plans in May this year.
Under the Workers' Compensation Board and the NWT Power Corporation, these two organizations appeared before the committee during our review of the main estimates. Of particular interest to the committee, in reviewing the Workers' Compensation Board, were two items, plans for division and the appointment of a new board chair. The initial review of the division plans for the board show that a great deal of thought has gone into the options available. The committee is pleased with the general direction being proposed by the board and looks forward to reviewing those plans in more detail in May.
The committee is also supportive of the move to a half-time board chair and increasing the responsibilities of the president of the board. We believe this move is in keeping with improving efficiency, and is appropriate given the strong state of the board. We also discussed division plans with the NWT Power Corporation. Again, we are supportive of the general concepts presented and look forward to further review of this proposal. We are also pleased with the overall strategic direction proposed by the corporation for the coming year.
Mr. Speaker, that concludes the introductory comments of the Standing Committee on Government Operations on our review of the 1997-98 Main Estimates. I would therefore move, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife South, that the report be received and moved into committee of the whole for consideration.
-- Applause
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Page 243
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Your motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Mr. Erasmus.
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Page 243
Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would seek unanimous consent to wave Rule 93(4) and have the Standing Committee on Government Operations report on the 1997-98 Main Estimates, moved into committee of the whole for today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Item 12: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees
Page 243
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Thank you. The Member for Yellowknife North is seeking unanimous consent to wave Rule 93(4). Do we have any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Erasmus, you have unanimous consent.
Item 12, reports of standing and special committees. Item 13, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 14, tabling of documents. Item 15, notices of motion. Item 16, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Motions 8-13(4) will now be dropped from the order paper. Item 18, first reading of bills. Item 19, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Bill 8, Appropriation Act and Committee Report 2-13(4) with Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.