I would like to call the committee of the whole to order. The items before us today are Bill 8, Appropriation Act 1997-98 and Committee Report 2-13(4). What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Ootes.
Debates of Jan. 28th, 1997
Topics
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Yes, Madam Chair, I would recommend that we proceed with general comments on both the appropriations Bill and the Report of the Standing Committee.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Mr. Ootes. Does the committee agree? We will commence with general comments on the Act or committee report before us. Mr. Roland.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank, Madam Chair. Some general comments on the budget document. I think that we have come a long way in two years. Unfortunately, we have also had to deal with some very negative duplications with the reductions as we have gone. I have always stated that I am concerned with the fairness with the way the reductions were happening. I hope to see that, as this budget comes out and unfolds, we have seen the fairness issue addressed in a meaningful way.
I share the concern of my community of Inuvik when it comes to the closure of Delta House, or the proposed closure as it states in this document. It also states of the hard necessary decisions that we have to make at times. I hope that this government will consider the health of the community and the people in the region when it looks at the possible alternatives, if any can be found in the area of drug and alcohol addictions.
When I came here a year ago now, as I think many of us did, we talked of changing the way the government did business. I think that we have done a phenomenal amount of change in the short time that we have been in this Assembly, to the point that we are now saying it is time to slow down and look where we have gone. As I thought about this the other night, we need to stop and look where we have gotten because we have been so busy in the cutting procedure we do not know if we are still heading towards the end of the forest or if we are going around in a circle now. I think that as a government and especially coming up to division we have to be sure of where we are heading.
I have concerns in the area of budget reductions and the impact of those even in the light of division. I think that both east and west have to look at the implications that we face as new territories come April 1, 1999. I have said it earlier on, when I came into the House, that Nunavut, I think it is a good idea and I support the people of Nunavut proceeding to move forward in that direction.
I also stated in that comment that I did not want it done on the backs of those who could least afford it. In all of this, I think that we need to pay particular attention to the end product. Have we achieved a balanced budget at the cost of two viable territories?
I think that we all came here with the idea that we did have to deal with the budget, whether division or not, we could not afford to continue to run government as it has. I have had to do much explaining in my home community on the reductions that have happened throughout the first year, and no doubt will have to do much explaining. But as I said in my interview yesterday with CBC, I do not find it my job to defend what is put forward, but instead to make sure that whatever is proposed is done in a fair and meaningful way. As we go through this process, I will be directing my questions to the Ministers of the departments that we go through on exactly that fairness in the way budget reduction has occurred. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Edward Picco Iqaluit
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think the reoccurring theme over the last couple of days and months has been the area surrounding fairness, and the debate surrounding fairness. The fairness of cuts, layoffs and reductions. I guess it would seem that larger communities like Iqaluit, Inuvik, Yellowknife, Rankin, Cambridge Bay, Hay River and Fort Smith have more to take from. Once you take from those areas, there is very little more to give.
In our communities where government is the major single employer of people, we cannot give much more. Whereas, for example, some other communities were you have, like this community, we have renewable resources, like gold mines and other things like that happening, who may be offsetting employment opportunities for their people.
In my community, for example, the only thing we have is government. Everything is government, agencies and boards of government, and thus Madam Chair, those things had to be evaluated on the cost effectiveness not only of the program reductions, but of the jobs lost, and how we can replace those lost jobs. I will be looking for that type of information to come forward.
At the end of the day, my children and your children with its common plan and common agenda and all these other buzz words some people like to come up with, we have to find out exactly where we are going. We have to have performance measurement indicators.
Now as a government, a lot of people in this elected Assembly this year and last year, were elected because it seemed like you had a business background. I challenge any of those people with business backgrounds to find a corporation, a town, a government that has over 6,000 employees and a billion dollar budget and does not have a Department of Personnel, for example.
I think that, at the end of the day, we will have to look at some of the things that we have done, and like I said on my earlier address on the budget, evaluation, maybe a Caucus discussion over the next few days on where we are and where we are going. The wholesale cuts and reductions that we have seen are unprecedented in the history of the NWT, and so have been the budget reductions to date. I was not elected to come here to rubber stamp everything that has been thrown in front of me. I will be doing to the best of my ability, some people might think a limited ability, to the best of my ability to defend my community, and I make no apology for that, and I will not roll over and play dead when my community is being effected and I expect the same from the other Members. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Michael Miltenberger Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to start my general comments by focusing on one of the issues that we have not done well as a government, and we are going to improve on with this budget and the next 800 days and that is the whole area of communication.
We still have not come out of the communication strategy as we suffered through the budget that we are currently in and we are still feeling the affects and follow out by the way we have handled a lot of the initiatives. This current budget is intended to take $100 million out of the budget, almost equivalent to last year. People are highly sensitized as we are all aware in every corner of this territory about the issue of deficit reduction and cutbacks. It is going to be critical for us if we are going to continue to manage this situation and be sympathetic and open and understanding as possible and let people know all of the issues that we are dealing with, we have a communication strategy.
It is not enough for MLAs or Ministers to stand up and make comments in the House, in their riding or at meetings. That is but one small part of the process. So, I would strongly recommend in the strongest possible way to the Minister of Finance, since he is one of only two Ministers in the House, that this is to me a critical issue. If we want to sell our package of necessary cuts, we have to be able to do it properly. We cannot afford to drop the ball.
I, like the Minister of Finance, am interested in getting through this particular budget exercise as carefully and as thoroughly and by the set dates as possible so that we can move on to the issues of economic development and then be one of division. There is also a considerable number of strategies and reviews currently under way especially in the social program in relation to reconfiguring health care facilities. They are still working on their child care issues that are going to have an impact on budgets, and I will be watching those with great interest.
I would encourage all MLAs to be very vigilant and involved in those because they will have an effect in every riding and with every individual in your constituency. It is very clear, as we discussed with the seniors we met with on Saturday, we have far more problems than we have money. I think this is a message that people do not want to hear, but I think it is a reality that we have to keep reinforcing. We still have a very high level of expectation and, while the cuts may be unprecedented in the history of the Northwest Territories, I think the level of expectation of people in the Northwest Territories on a comparative basis is also very high. The reality is, some of the problems we face, unless we deal with them, are going to continue to cripple us.
The Member for Hay River brought one up that I think we have to put on the table in a public forum more and more. That is, the whole issue of our exploding population. As we look at budgets and the costs that are driving our economy, one of the biggest single costs is the exploding birth rates and the pressure on health care systems, on social welfare systems, on schools, and on day cares. It is very clear to me that we have to start looking seriously at those issues, in relation to any kind of budget process, if we are going to have some kind of sustainable economy.
I also am convinced, as painful as it is, that we have to stay the course on this particular strategy that we agreed to and embarked on a year ago; the two-year deficit reduction plan. We have a lot of things that are already in process and, in my opinion, while there are some modifications maybe that take place, we have to stay the course.
I also agree that we have unprecedented change. Any kind of significant restructuring, I think, is no longer appropriate, and that it is time to consolidate the changes we have made, the restructuring that has been done, and to evaluate the benefit and effect, or lack of effect, of some of the various initiatives that we, as an Assembly, have agreed to. I think of the new consolidation of RWED, the user pay/user say.
Where are we with privatization? There is a whole host of initiatives that we have in the works related to this budget. We have so many things going that it is hard to keep track and hard to see what is working. I am convinced that if we do not pay more attention to some of the changes that we have under way, they will not happen. Privatization, unless people are vigilant and unless we make it an issue and focus attention on it, will, in all probability, grind to a slow, inexorable halt, because I do not think the government very willingly through its bureaucracy will seriously look at privatization. I think, subconsciously at least, there is a vested interest to maintain status quo. Am I out of time?
I think if we limit any further restructuring and focus on some of the initiatives we do have, that it will in the long run may be more beneficial. We may be able to realize some of the end results that we are anticipating if we can focus some attention on those and I think we should. As I mentioned, moments ago, it is also critical that we look at serious ways to contain some of the social drivers that are really straining our ability to cope. It is not something that is easy to talk about, something as simple as families and children. Unless we put that on the table and people realize the impact, I think we are not doing people justice or making them clearly aware that it is not just a question of government cutting or not having enough money, but there are things out there that we can have an influence on. We mentioned that to the seniors' society, that everybody has a role to play when you look at restructuring our way of life in the north.
As I look at the budget, the cost of division as we move down into the next 700 days is going to be another critical area. As one of the communities in the west, outside of Yellowknife, my sense is that it is going to be communities like mine that are going to end up suffering a net loss as we move through the deficit reduction, plus factoring in division. I think it is going to be critical for communities, outside of Yellowknife or including Yellowknife, in the west, to make maximum benefit of the resource development initiatives that are under way, ones that are now under way or that may be on the drawing board. Because, very clearly, as has been indicated by just about all MLAs, government is not going to regain its former stature. We are not going to have new government revenues. Government will no longer be, as the Minister of Finance is wont to say, going to be the engine of growth in this territory. It is very clear that it is time to start shifting and broadening our economic base and that is a very difficult task in communities that have grown up on government largesse, I suppose.
Like Mr. Picco, I think MLAs have an obligation to defend their communities, but I qualify that defence by saying that I do not think it should be necessarily at all costs. When we talk fairness and equity we have an obligation as MLAs to consider other constituencies, other MLAs concerns, and the fact that we came in when we were elected into an imperfect system that we are trying to adjust and improve and that there is no doubt that some communities have more than others. Clearly there is no doubt. Just like it is very clear that some communities have faced inequities in the past, for whatever reason, in things like capital. So I, too, want to defend my community, but at the end of the day I want to make sure that the budgets that we put out and the programs that we agree to and the initiatives that we undertake, benefit the whole Northwest Territories.
Unless we keep a win-win attitude foremost on our minds when we are doing business in this House, then we will all retreat to our respective constituencies and we will have a regression to an old style of doing business that is going to be even more detrimental, now, than it was in the past, because no longer can we afford to try to go it alone. No longer can we afford to lobby individually to protect our interests without considering the overall picture. I know it is very difficult and I know we take a lot of heat for it, but I think we all knew when we were elected that this is possibly a short-term employment for us. But if we end up doing what is right, at the end of the day, when you look in the mirror in mornings, at least you will know you have that to your credit, that you did what you thought was right. You may be unemployed but you will have that satisfaction.
I think we have a lot of tough ground to cover ahead of us. I am confident that, as we listen to the discussion and debate at the end of the day, we can reach the goals that we have set for ourselves. Thank you, Madame Chair.
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John Todd Keewatin Central
I know other Members may wish to respond but I would like to, if I can, take an opportunity to respond to the Members that have made their comments already. To try to give some clarity on what the government's position is and, of course, I will respond to the other Members. I would like to start off, if I can, by quoting, if I may because I think it is important, Theodore Hesburg, who was the former president of the University of Notre Dame. He said, when it came to decision making, that his basic principle was: that we do not make decisions because they are easy. We do not make decisions because they are cheap, and we do not make decisions because they are popular. We make decisions because they are right.
This Assembly made a conscious effort 15 months ago, to put together a two-year deficit elimination strategy and many Members of this House disagreed with that at the time. Some wanted it shorter, some wanted it longer. But an appropriate compromise was made. The decisions we made have been difficult. They have not been easy. Mr. Picco is right. The last 12 or 13 months, I think it would be fair to say, that the Finance Minister has taken the brunt, rightly or wrongly, of the concern of the public at large.
This Finance Minister does not use buzz words, he uses serious positions as it relates to the budget. If you are going to have an effective debate, with respect to the budget, then it has to be done in a civilized, well laid out, argumentative manner. It is easy for those who continue to use, as it was used today in my opinion and I intend to deal with it tomorrow, purple prose, to exaggerate the fact that this government and some Members of it have not take the serious steps necessary to meet the requirements of our constituents at large.
Nobody feels more about what is going on in this country than I do, or any other Cabinet Minister around this table. I have been accused many times of wearing my emotions on my sleeve. I have pleaded with Members of this House to deal with the root causes of our problems for the last 12 months. I have spoken to many of you about reading Colin Irwin's book, Lords of the Arctic, Wards of the State. I have asked a number of you to take a look at the Kinloch report as it relates to health care across the system. Frankly, we have not had that debate. I was glad yesterday, at least the debate was raised by Mrs. Groenewegen, and I am glad to hear Mr. Miltenberger talk about it today.
The reality of cuts, you shake your head, but the reality of our situation is, it is not just the fact that our base has been cut by $60 million, it is the forced growth of $40 million that is out of control in the social envelope. The discussion and the debate has to be taken in that context. It is not a question of how many houses you are going to get, whether you are going to get a health centre, it is a question of are you going to protect the essential services for the constituents that you represent? Because the federal government has cut the budget by 60 million bucks, the forced growth because of population explosion and other factors is forcing an additional $40 million on the expenditure base of this government.
Parallel to that, and I include myself in this debate, as you indicated, is the expectation of our constituencies. Not only do we want skating rinks, we want zambonies. Not only do we want zambonies, we want zamboni rooms. And we continue, historically, and I have taken the time, to spend our way into this position. We are left with the daunting task of trying to bring back some fiscal sanity and to ensure that the essential services that we provide to our people and to my neighbours and my neighbours' kids, I make no apologies for saying that, are there. Whether it is in schooling, in health care, in housing, et cetera. To do that, we made a conscientious effort in the budget reductions to take a two-year approach, which we all agreed to.
We knew it would be a difficult task. The first year we took, as I have said on many occasions, from those who have the most, to keep it simple. We knew the next 12 months, this 12 months, this budget that we are facing, is going to be even more difficult and more challenging for all of us because it effects those who have the least. It effects health care, et cetera. If we do not make the tough decisions, you will not have to worry about it, because there will be no money to deliver the essential services to the people.
My friend from Inuvik talks about fairness and talks about it passionately. I agree with him. My responsibility, and my friend here talks about protecting Iqaluit and his constituency, and I agree with him. But I have a responsibility for the territories. I believe, as will be demonstrated in the coming weeks, that this Cabinet Minister and other Cabinet Ministers have clearly led by example in the cuts and reductions that have taken place as have some Members of this House. I am confident we will be able to demonstrate that this House, and this Cabinet, and Members of the Legislative Assembly, have demonstrated by example. My responsibility goes beyond Rankin Inlet, Whale Cove. It goes into Iqaluit. It goes into Arviat.
This budget that we are bringing down now, is probably the most difficult we have ever brought down in the history of the Legislative Assembly. We all knew it was coming. We all talked about it the last 13, 14 months, and to suggest otherwise is wrong. If we do not make the cuts, we will as I have said on a number of occasions, leave an inheritance of debt for our children both east and west that, in my opinion, will be fiscally unmanageable. That will take away from our ability to deliver the essential services and totally, as I said yesterday, unacceptable.
It is my believe that this budget, and if, as my friend from Fort Smith has said, we stay the course no matter how difficult it is, we will be judged not now, but in the future. It would be expedient and easy for us to be politically correct and do little. We have been challenged more than we have ever been challenged before and it is incumbent on all of us that at the end of the day when April 1, 1999 rolls around we have given it our best shot to ensure that the two new territories are left in as fiscally sound a position as possible.
The budget deficit elimination strategy has been well laid out and I would suggest to you now, even though there has been criticism which is understandable, I think it is slowly becoming accepted by many and it is incumbent upon all of us as we move forward in the debate on a program by program basis but bear in mind that while, as Mr. Henry said earlier in his MLA statement, I have indicated there has been participation by the Ordinary Members. There will be dissent within it but the overall fiscal targets have set must be met if we are going to ensure that we have a balanced budget and there is going to be some fiscal health for future generations in the Northwest Territories.
I take this debate very seriously. I have taken the time to look at the demographics of what is happening. I challenge you all to do the same. At the end of the day, I am convinced you will come to the conclusion that the steps that we are taking, no matter how difficult they are, are the right steps and hopefully with your cooperation and the cooperation of the public at large, we will balance the budget this coming year and look forward to some light at the end of the tunnel and be able to demonstrate to your constituencies as political representatives that you can move beyond cutting and get on with creating in job opportunities some hope as Mr. Picco said. Some security for the basic essential services that are required by our residents. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Todd. Are there any further general comments to Bill 8 Appropriation Act or the Committee Report 2-13(4)? Any further general comments? Mr. Miltenberger.
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Michael Miltenberger Thebacha
Madam Chair, thank you. There was one point I was going to make that occurred to me in hindsight. I just wanted to point out that I think that we have to be very careful as well when we are talking to our constituents about the projected surplus and make it very, very clear that on a $1.2 billion budget it is not a large amount of money. We have to be very careful that we do not have people spending that surplus many times over, As has been indicated, one good fire season, one outbreak of RSV, a couple of buildings burned that are not insured and we are back in the hole. So, I
think we have to be very careful about how we approach that because I noticed the press picked that up right away. The big high point is that if we got this surplus why are we cutting, why do not we spend it? It is a projected surplus that may or may not be there. So, I am concerned about that particular issue. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Are there any Members who have not spoken yet that would like to make general comments? Mr Krutko.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to the budget and going through it, the question I raised in regards to capital distribution, especially in my region, based on the 10 year allocations, based on population and I have seen from the statistics I have had, that my riding has been the lowest in regards to capital distribution for a number of years and still is. When you talk about allocation and distribution in the case of Tsiigehtchic, for instance getting $42 thousand in the budget yet two years ago through the capital planning process were supposedly getting allocated $400 thousand. So, I think the whole question in the area of capital and the concerns raised of fairness, equity and allocations in regards to the communities throughout the north, there has to be a mechanism in place to verify that in regards to capital, O and M, and exactly the needs of the communities where we are finding there is cuts in areas such as the different subsidies we get through water and sewage. Also in regards to the cost to operate and maintain infrastructure such as water treatment plants, recreation centres, that there has to be a fair way of dealing with it and it has got to be phased in over time so that you do not take the axe to the tree and chop the tree down without really thinking of what the implications are in regards to where that is going to fall. Because what we are finding in a lot of our communities is that because of the decisions that we have made in regards to dealing with the deficit and also the cuts that we have taken. Some of them are basically, pretty hurt in regards to how it affects the bottom line in communities and how they have to restructure their finances within those communities and municipalities to deal with that.
There has to be a merit, a way of monitoring also a way of allowing this process to be phased in over a period of time. I know we do not have time but there has to be a way that the communities or municipalities have a mechanism there that when they do get in trouble or when they realize that there are problems in regards to their bottom line and trying to avoiding getting stuck in a deficit situation, that there is a way of proceeding. Where that there if there is a way knowingly that the department will be able to allocate other resources or other human resources to come in and assist them. Right now we do not have that. Basically, you take something over you are stuck with the burden of having to deal with it but my big point is the whole question of fairness. I have, you know, stood up in the House several times in the last year talking about this and I am have been meeting with the Minister and Minister of Finance and different Ministers to try to find a fair way of these distributions and also in regards to how we operate and maintain our infrastructure. So with that, thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I have Mr. Picco on the list next if no one else would like to speak, but I see he is not in his chair. Are there any other Members who would like to make general comments? Mr. Erasmus, did you want to make general comments?
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Yes, please. Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to make some comments on the budget address. First of all, I am pleased to see that for the first time in four years, this government will not run an annual deficit and that we are actually projecting a small surplus of almost $9 million for 1997-98. Very reassuring to see that the plan that we put into place a year ago may actually bear fruit, in that we wanted to balance the budget in two years and I am really glad to see that this may actually occur unless there are some unforeseen events, emergencies, that type of thing.
I know that we have had to reduce our expenditures by around $100 million both last year and we will have to do that again this coming fiscal year but as Mr. Todd has indicated we have not yet succeeded in reducing our operating budget to a sustainable level. We cannot continue to reducing capital spending. Infrastructure has to be replaced. Hospitals need to be built, that type of thing, so we do have to continue to trying to find ways to be more cost effective. I am pleased to see that Mr. Todd has discussed with the Honourable Paul Martin, the federal Minister of Finance, on finding a floor on the formula financing agreement as to how much the spending in the south will actually affect us. As we all know when the government in Alberta and Ontario substantially cut from their budgets, it affected us drastically here too, many, many millions of dollars. I believe it was $30 million and/or thereabouts, I cannot remember.
There is some type of a ceiling so that if they increase their spending, there is a ceiling. There should also be a floor so that once you reach that floor you cannot go any lower, that their cutting affects us. So I am pleased to see that Mr. Todd has managed to get them back to the table on this.
In the area of restructuring Health and Social Services, being on the Social Programs Committee, I am well aware of how the forced growth issue affects us and we do have staggering demographic problem. Our population is increasing at the highest rate in North America and we cannot continue to proceed at this level because it just continues to put more stress on the areas of health and education, social services. Having said that, I am quite pleased to see that Cabinet has made a decision to protect the funding levels within the social envelope and in fact to increase the spending in the social envelope a few percentage points in this budget because even though we have to do something about the forced growth it is still there and we have to deal with it but at the same time we have to find ways of managing this and evolve the health and education and social services system. I am quite pleased to see, because of that, that Mr. Ng has established a steering committee comprised of the Minister and the chairpersons of the Inuvik and Baffin regional health boards and the Northwest Territories Health Care Association. This committee will guide an extensive analysis of the current system and is supposed to develop a comprehensive plan to serve as a solid base so that future development of two sustainable health care systems. This is badly needed, and I am glad to the partnership that has been formed with these agencies.
In the area of organizational efficiency, Mr. Todd had indicated that the government has removed itself from functions that can be better done by the private sector. And I have said in the past, I am not that great a proponent of privatization and I know that it is certainly not always better for the people involved that privatization occurs. Before the decision is made to privatize petroleum products and computer services that need to be made in the future, I certainly hope that we have a chance to fully discuss this before proceeding with that plan.
I fully agree with the Finance Minister that it is time to turn our attention to division, and I fully respect the people of Nunavut's right to design their own government. Having said that, I also have to qualify that a bit by saying that the design of their government should not effect the level of programs and services that we maintain in the west, that we have now in the west.
We also cannot forget that we are creating two new territories, not just one. It is, therefore, essential that we move quickly to reach a consensus on the design considerations of Nunavut. It is also essential that somebody figures out the cost of the proposed government so people can see whether it is feasible or not. I also want to indicate that incremental costs that have been mentioned, there are incremental costs for both sides, the west and the east, because we are creating two new territories. Therefore, the incremental costs for the west should also be taken into consideration and with that I am very glad to see that the Cabinet has identified over a million dollars in 1997/'98 to ensure that we can effectively talk about self government in the west.
As for the financial arrangements, I am quite pleased to see that Mr. Todd has spoken with Mr. Martin, the federal Finance Minister to ensure that the western Caucus has participation in the discussions leading up to the new financial arrangements in the east and the west. I am also pleased to see that they had provided funding for the steering committee for the western leadership.
I was also very pleased to see that we have invested funding in the social envelope for specific program initiatives which are called reinvestments. We certainly need to focus on children and families and the three million dollars for the early childhood intervention is very good to see. This will go primarily towards community based education or health promotion activities to families. I will be providing a more detailed budget address within the next couple of days. Madam Chair, thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Any further general comments? Mr. Todd, response.
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John Todd Keewatin Central
Thank you, Madam Chair. If I may, I would like to address, first of all, Mr. Krutko's concern about fairness as we have had frequently in this House. I have spent, as have some Ministers, a considerable amount of time on this issue in trying to find an appropriate compromise to it. I would ask him today publicly, and I know it will be difficult for me to say this to him, to be patient. We genuinely want to, I say this for public comment, genuinely want to do what is right for his constituency and do it in a manner that does not effect others. So, for public record, I want to assure him that there is a genuine effort, whether or not we will be able to satisfy the constituents or not, but there is certainly a genuine effort to try and reach some goal here.
Both Mr. Erasmus and Mr. Krutko talked about the capital budget and I could not agree more with you. In the budget I outlined that we cannot continue to take from the capital budget, you know we are up around $200 million at one point, we are now sitting at about $130 million. It does not make any fundamental change to the cost of running government, it is a short term relief and frankly I am concerned that we cannot continue to erode, if you want, the capital base, because it really does nothing over the long haul.
We did, last year and this year, did take some money from it in an effort to try and make sure there was some fairness in the cuts. I appreciate Mr. Erasmus's comments about the floor arrangement and as he said the erosion of our basin in the formula. And, I think, it is a complicated issue, the formula financing arrangement and it complicates itself even more, by the fact that we are not totally in control of our own fiscal destiny because a provincial and local government spending has a critical impact on how our formula is arranged.
As I said on a number of occasions, I am concerned that those who imply, and some have publicly, that we are moving too quickly, or deficits are okay. In fairness, I do not fully understand the fact that it is not this government alone making these dramatic changes, it is, you know, it is a combination of a variety of people. Now, that is not to suggest that I, as the Finance Minister, or us as Assembly are not ultimately responsible. We are. But some of this stuff is, whether we like it or not, beyond our control. I mean, if Mr. Bouchard decides to cut x-billion dollars from his budget, then I do not think he is going to listen to me, even though I would try to talk to him, or for that matter Mr. Harris and it does have an impact.
In fairness to the federal government, Mr. Martin, and I have to say this, in my meetings with him, has been very co-operative, and I am not saying because it is politically fashionable to say it these days, but I fundamentally believe the man is being as straight with me as he can, and if there is some room for compromise or room to establish a floor arrangement and he can live with that, I am confident that we will be able to come to an arrangement.
We are setting the stage, in a sense, for 1999, because two new formulas will be negotiated, so these issues of the floor, the erosion of our base because of provincial spending, have to be understood by more people. And, in particular, by our legislators and those who are directly involved in the east/west discussions on two new formulas.
I appreciate Mr. Erasmus's comments on the fact that we have been able to, at least on paper so far, come to an arrangement on broad representation at the financial table when we take a look at the fiscal arrangements that are necessary for the two new territories. I absolutely believe this is essential to the successful conclusion of two new arrangements. I would hope that my western colleagues, and I put on just temporary my Nunavut hat, would really at some point be able to reassure all Members and the public at large that the division of the territories is not a Nunavut issue and in fact will not impinge upon the western Arctic's ability to continue with a quality of life and the services that we have. I see it, as the Finance Minister, as the development of two territories, and the development of two new formula financing arrangements.
If I may try and answer a couple more issues, I think it would be fair to say that as I have spoken about earlier and Mr. Erasmus spoke about and others have, it is the struggle we are all having in relationship to the social envelope and the fact that it has got this enormous first growth, and with some it feels like it is outside of your control. And I use the terms in the budget, I believe, I do not have them before me, that the Minister Ng who has got an inordinately difficult task, needs to take a hard look at some radical form to the system. I can tell you, this is not unique to this jurisdiction. That is going on all across the country, and it is going to require all our patience and all our support in discussion and debate when Mr. Ng's budget and others come forward because, remember it is like the formula arrangement, it has a first growth component to it that makes it extremely difficult to contain, or to control. So, he has an inordinate difficult task of trying to satisfy the constituency at large, meet the targets that have been set by, et cetera.
As the Finance Minister, I have an overriding concern that the social envelope, and I have spoken on many occasions of this, the budget in the social envelope is continuing to rise. If it continues to rise to the degree it currently is, and there is no containment of it, then you know the logical end to that is that all the money will be in the social envelope and little will be in other areas: job creation, essential services, et cetera. I know many of you view it that way, but I think it is important that you do.
One last thing Mr. Erasmus eluded to, and I think this is probably where him and I differ slightly, in that is his comments as they relate to privatization and his concerns raised. I appreciate what he is saying and my position is that I really I wish there had been more progress, not less. But I want to assure him that, as we move forward with deciding on whether we should privatize POL and the larger computer services, et cetera, that would not be done without full discussion by the committees.
In summary, Madam Chair, I appreciate the Member's comments and I am going to try and reassure my colleague, Mr. Krutko, that we are trying to make every effort, and I know it is extremely frustrating for him, I appreciate that the chairman of the government ops committee has taken an interest, in particular, in the larger issue of the formula financing arrangement, the erosion of the base. The fact that we do not have total control on the budgetary process as we would like, and I want to reassure the House that Mr. Martin, the Finance Minister, is agreed and working diligently to try to meet and come forward with a satisfactory compromise that will safeguard the base that we have and avoid any further erosion as we move forward to April 1, 1999. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 249
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 249
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am not at this time prepared to make comments towards this budget. I have heard comments from the other Members and I have heard the response from the Minister, and I, personally I would prefer to have more time to review all this information and therefore, I move that we report progress.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 249
The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Steen. There is motion on the floor to report progress but, we do not have a quorum so we will have to ... Okay, the Chair recognizes that we have a quorum again. There is a motion on the floor to report progress. Motion is in order. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried. Thank you. I will rise and report progress.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 249
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
The House will come back to order. Are there any items? Item 21, report of committee of the whole? Mrs. Groenewegen.
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 249
Jane Groenewegen Hay River
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 8 and Committee Report 2-13(4) and would like to report progress and Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the committee of the whole be concurred with. Thank you.
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 249
The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Thank you, seconded by Mr. Arlooktoo. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour. All those opposed. Motion is carried. Item 22, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk. Item 23, orders of the day.
Item 23: Orders Of The Day
Item 23: Orders Of The Day
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Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton
Mr. Speaker, meetings for tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. of the Ordinary Members Caucus, and at 10:30 a.m. of the Standing Committee on Social Programs.
Orders of the day for Wednesday, January 29:
1. Prayer
2. Ministers' Statements
3. Members' Statements
4. Returns to Oral Questions
5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
6. Oral Questions
7. Written Questions
8. Returns to Written Questions
9. Replies to Opening Address
10. Replies to Budget Address
11. Petitions
12. Reports of Standing and Special Committees
13. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills
14. Tabling of Documents
15. Notices of Motion
16. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills 17. Motions
18. First Reading of Bills
19. Second Reading of Bills
20. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
- Bill 8 and Committee Report 2-13(4)
21. Report of Committee of the Whole
22. Third Reading of the Bills
23. Orders of the Day