Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member from Nahendeh, that Bill 24, An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act be read for the second time.

Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the act to provide the commissioner or the board of a public agency may, with the approval of the financial management board, on behalf of the government or a public agency, make a guarantee of an amount not exceeding the limit prescribes by regulation. Thank you.

The Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly, enacts as follows:

1. The Financial Administration Act is amended by this Act.

2. Subsection 67(1) is repealed and the following is substituted:

67. (1) The Commissioner, on the recommendation of the Board and on behalf of the Government, may make

(a) a guarantee, where the maximum liability under the guarantee does not exceed the prescribed amount; or

(b) an indemnity, where the maximum liability under the indemnity does not exceed $500,000.

3. Subsection 87(1) is repealed and the following is substituted: 87. (1) A board, with the approval of the Commissioner and the Financial Management Board and on behalf of the public agency, may make

(a) a guarantee, where the maximum liability under the guarantee does not exceed the prescribed amount; or

(b) an indemnity, where the maximum liability under the indemnity does not exceed $500,000.

4. This Act or any provision of this Act comes into force on a day or days to be fixed by order of the Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Your motion is in order to the principle of the bill. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Bill 24 has had second reading and accordingly, the bill stands referred to committee. Second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Bills 3, 5, and 15; Committee Report 08-13(4); Minister's statement 110-13(4), Tabled Documents 108-13(4). With Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The committee will deal with Minister's Statement 110-13(4), Transition Action Plan, and proceed with Tabled Document 108-13(4), Creation of Two New Territories - Transition Action Plan, and Bill 3, Family Law Act. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Chair. On my immediate right is Mr. Lew Voytilla, chairman of Financial Management Board and author of the report Creation of Two New Territories.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to start off the discussion today with a few more comments. I was listening to the debate yesterday and the discussions that have gone around in the last few days over the Transition Action plan and of the immense task that we have before us in making things happen. I think there is no question at all that our job is to be one of several partners in making Nunavut and the Western Arctic a reality. I think there is a tendency also when we are down to the nitty gritty or the nuts and bolts to sometimes lose sight of the goal sometimes. Because of the many different issues we have before us things like the financing, the staffing issue, the need to get the justice system and executive system in place for Nunavut in the short amount of time we have. It does take the centre stage as it must and those issues are certainly the most pressing ones that we need to deal with. I think also, as I mentioned yesterday and the statement that I have, that we do need to step back every once in a while to take a look at exactly what is going on.

In this case, it is important to remember many of the positives and the main goal that we are working towards and, in the case of the people of Nunavut, it is a creation of Nunavut and that is what I wanted to touch a bit upon. I must say that for myself personally, it is exciting and it is an honour for me to be involved in this area. These are historic times and I think those of us that are involved in this including the MLAs here, the staff that are directly involved are in a sense lucky to be at the forefront as we are trying to deal with this. In one of the positive things that the people of Nunavut are looking forward to is in the area of jobs and training. I have had discussions with Mr. Dent and staff and looked at the information that he has put forward in the work in the area of training and received information a couple of weeks ago. So far there has been over 150 Inuit that have completed full-time courses in the area of preparing for jobs with the Nunavut government. An additional 100 people have completed part-time studies. This is very positive and we have many more, hundreds more that are in the system and for them, although you have the usual difficulties of living as a student and all the different issues that you have to deal with as a young person, it does not affect very exciting times.

I wanted to thank the Speaker for introducing some of those that are involved here, especially in the headquarters, in the government system preparing to step in 1999 as managers. The four that we have today incidentally are in the area of policy and I think it does make me very proud of the fact they are taking this training and that we need to encourage and support these young people. I wanted to mention their names again: David Akeeagok, Nicole Camphaug, Susan Makpah and Jaypeetie Arnakak who are here taking in the work that we do here in the headquarters level and being exposed to and being involved in what goes on in headquarters. I believe they are still here with us today and I think it is very important to note the fact that is why we are doing this. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, surely we have both a corporate and a political responsibility to the residents of the Northwest Territories to engage in some kind of discussion, some kind of planning for the creation of two new territories. After all, we are the government at the present time. We have a great deal of corporate knowledge available and, I think it would be naive of my honourable colleague to suggest that we are not going to be a partner in the process.

To answer his question with respect to money. First of all, I appreciate his clarification of his comments yesterday and I will accept them at face value. The important thing here is to say there are no direct implementation costs with respect to the creation of two territories that are going to be funded by this government. Let me repeat that. No direct implementation costs that are going to be funded by this government.

There is, no question, some costs associated with good planning and advice which we are giving on this report and to the parties at the table. I mean, we are meeting on a regular basis. There are some expenditures there. In terms of the large dollars in relation to implementation. I think we have been pretty clear and pretty consistent that responsibility lies in the hands of the federal government. I am going to take Ms. Stewart at face value when she says to me: one, we will re-examine the $150 million original submission of March 1996, to see if we can re-profile some of that money which was approved by the federal cabinet; and two, that she is prepared to sit down with all parties, and I have to remind everybody for clarity purposes who the parties are; Government of the Northwest Territories, federal government, NTI, the Interim Commissioner, and the western coalition.

It is a bit complicated. It is not the government-to-government debate. It is a variety of partners that was agreed upon through a political accord that was signed a number of years ago. In terms of Mr. Steen's concerns and reassurances that this government is not going to expend large dollars in relation to implementation, I can give him that today, unequivocally. I will say to him that we are spending some money, no doubt, as I said on the cost of planning and just good corporate and political responsibility that we all have. I am confident that the Minister of DIAND means it when she says that she is prepared to sit down with the parties and look at some consideration for the shortfall of the dollars that are necessary to move forward.

In respect to who is responsible? The responsibility clearly lies in the hands of the Interim Commissioner and the federal government. We made it clear from the outset that we are giving advice to the Interim Commissioner. He can choose to accept it or not. Given the corporate knowledge that we have, we have a responsibility to lay out a plan for the eventual creation of two territories. After all, we are training people for that eventuality. Four of them are in the House today. Two from my riding, which I am pleased to see. Both charming young ladies, Ms. Makpah and Ms. Camphaug. We are spending money already. The federal government has given us that money to assist in training these people. We are in a partnership. I recognize and I understand Mr. Steen's concerns, particularly about his riding, but I do not know what other assurances I can give him, other than what I have said. One, there are no direct implementation costs, for the third time. Two, we have an agreement from the federal government to form a table to take a look at what we fundamentally believe is the shortfall to put into place the essential ingredients of a new government so it is functional in April 1, 1999. How much that is going to be? I do not know. Who is going to pay? The federal government. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I listened to the different statements from Members yesterday. I find that it was and it is necessary to look at the pros and cons. I believe that each and every Member of this Legislature has the right to speak for or against the Transition Action Plan. Madam Chair, there are times it helps to be cautious about items, issues, and so on. But at the same time I think the time is running out.

Madam Chair, over the past 20 years I have listened to people, individuals, groups, organizations at the community, regional, territorial level talk about their idea for two territories. Thoughts were given to the creation of two territories. I find the Transition Action Plan of this government is nothing more than a thought which is in the written form and, I find that it is not a blueprint, but it is there to be used as a tool and mechanism to ensure the creation of two territories will come out in an organized manner. When we talked about the division, I do not believe we talked about in isolation of one. I think that should be noted. We are talking about two different territories. In one, it is working well. At the beginning, as Mr. Todd indicated, by April 1, 1999, we wanted to have it functioning, an operating government for the benefit of its residents. I believe one is able to work because of the well laid out plan prior to the creation the other will follow. Madam Chair, I believe Mr. Steen and other Members who had some disillusion to the action plan have a very legitimate concern and I commend them for that. This is, Madam Chair, a government institute in a democratic society and we should respect that. Madam Chair, does the transition action plan take the role of the Interim Commissioner, NTI or anyone for that matter? I do not believe so. I think it is said to be used as advisement for those people who are given the task of creating Nunavut and western government. I think we should recognize that. Madam Chair, we are willing to fund anything over and beyond that promised to be funded by the federal government? I think each and every Member recognize that we do not have the resources at this point in time and, we do not have the money at this point in time. Are we, in the public government, prepared to give more resources to one territory than the other? I do not think so. The Premier and the Finance Minister have said many times that you want to be fair and compassionate. I think we are about to take that into account as we always have taken that into account. Madam Chair, when Mr. Todd made his statement and I quote "on the first page talks about the Honourable Charles Dent will be tabling in this House next week a further report that focuses more strictly on the issues related to the transition of new Western Territory".

Madam Chair, for the last week and a half, I listened to Members here in this forum, committee of the whole, in the House, in committee rooms, Caucus room or even outside these premises, that east is getting more than the west. If that is the fact, Madam Chair, that may not be true. Perhaps we are ready for division in 1999. Perhaps we know we are not quite as ready as the public perceives us to be. That is why it is necessary to come up with the Transition Action Plan to help us out. We know that time is running out, public knows that time is running out and we know the public government of today is not mandated to write the blue print for Nunavut to be. We also know that we are the government of today that will oversee part of two parties the creation of the two territories. For that matter we wanted to ensure that Nunavut and Western Territory come April 1, 1999, those two governments, are functioning and operating, and the residents of those two governments are receiving program services at the basic to both territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I do not want to sound like a broken record, but I am going to repeat two things in an effort to try to get some final clarity on the issue of what we are doing here and who is responsible. I think then hopefully, it will be clear and we will not debate it any more. It is important to stress, Madam Chair, that this document represents our best analysis of the current situation and has been offered to all parties in the spirit of cooperation and partnership and is simply advice, nothing more. Although the Government of the Northwest Territories will continue until April 1, 1999, we have no legal mandate to implement transition measures in Nunavut. It is clear that the transition responsibility lies with the Interim Commissioner and the federal government. I do not know how more clear or concise I can be than that. Thank you Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe it is a custom in the rules that for Members who have not spoken to be given that opportunity. I believe Mr. Ootes spoke to this yesterday and I have not had an opportunity yet. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Ootes is correct. There will be a significant amount of downsizing with the 281 PYs that have been identified to be moved in the report. You know there is in an ideal world. Would you like to have a turn key situation, as I have said earlier this week; but unfortunately it is not. Some of the limitations are not necessarily the political will or the money. The reality is some of the assets are not in place whether it is office facilities or housing, et cetera. That is not an excuse, that is a reality. My understanding is there is a desire to try to move as quickly as they can on putting in the office facilities and the housing in both Iqaluit and in the decentralized communities that have

been identified. We are not totally sure yet, exactly what positions will be transferred at this time, because quite frankly we still have to negotiate with our partners. This is one report. Remember the three things I have said. I will say it again for clarity purposes. It is advice to the Interim Commissioner, a clear and concise costing to the federal government and a call of action to the Government of the Northwest Territories. We are encouraging, or trying to encourage, the Interim Commissioner and I am confident that he will call a meeting as quickly as he can of all parties to see if a consensus can be reached, what he is doing, what we are doing, and what the federal government is doing. Some negotiations that we are going to have to undergo as to what actually we are going to do, work out what we think at the end of the day, what the costs are going to be. We have to sit down with Ms. Stewart's office and reassess the $150 million, see if they are re-profiling and determine what the additional costs that are going to be necessary with respect to transition which is a one time cost associated with dividing the territories. I think that it is important that I give some clarity on the contracting side.

I said in my opening comments earlier this week, and we say in the report, the decision in which to contract some services of the new Nunavut government will be made by the Interim Commissioner. He and his office will determine what services they need to purchase and, if in fact, they wish to purchase them from the current or future western government. Our comment on our position was that we have a certain corporate out there that we think has some value. We have a long history in running this country since 1966/67, and we would hope that, at the end of the day, if there is a requirement to contract out some services, they would give due consideration to the western government or this existing one. But, again, there are no guarantees. That is the Interim Commissioner's decision. There is also no question in respect to Yellowknife, that there is clearly going to be a requirement for some downsizing in the offices. There is no question about that. This government, and the future government of the west, will not want to be left and encumbered with a number of costs associated with offices if they are sitting empty. At the end of the day, you have to pay for that. The Honourable Goo Arlooktoo, Minister of Public Works, and myself are working to put together a paper which will try to bring some rationalization to the office requirements during the interim transition stage and the office requirements at April 1,1999. Yes, Mr. Ootes, for your constituents' sake there will be some downsizing. No question. That paper will be coming forward shortly to Cabinet and I am sure we will be able to discuss that at the time.

Transition costs, I cannot say it any more clearly than I have, and I appreciate you qualified your comments as to the responsibility of the federal government I am confident, at this stage anyway, qualifier, confident that at this stage anyway there is a political desire to reach an arrangement. I hope that the Interim Commissioner will call a meeting quickly so we can get to the table and determine what we can do. Thank you.