In regard to the whole area of taxation, who are the groups that were consulted on this? What was the process used to consult people on taxation?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Thompson.

Thank you, Minister Thompson. On the clause by clause, I would ask the Members of the committee if they could keep their questions to the specific clause we are dealing with. Mr. Krutko.

I thought there were more questions, that is why I held off on my question. I did not think we were going to railroad this through the House like we usually do.

We can return to general comments, if the committee is agreed. If that is the request of the Member. Mr. Krutko.

I would like to go back to general comments because, the question that I asked and the concerns that are raised by communities, especially from the aboriginal community, where the whole question about treaty rights has not been defined and is still an outstanding issue. Not only in claims, but between the federal government and this government. I believe this Act will affect the rights aboriginal people feel they have through treaties, especially in regard to taxation, which is a federal jurisdiction.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I will ask the Minister if she could help to explain, deputy minister Penny Ballantyne. Ms. Ballantyne.

If that explanation does not help to clarify the intent of the bill, I would ask then, if the committee is agreed that we return to general comments? Is the committee agreed? Mr. Henry.

We will return to general comments and any questions the Member has we will take at this time. We will commence the clause by clause consideration after we have concluded general comments. Any further general comments? Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think it is time to give a little history lesson on how a lot of these communities have been developed, especially in the Mackenzie Valley where treaties are in place. A lot of aboriginal communities have lost their land and their homes to government decisions that are made by someone else. They were told that we will give you a home; you will not have to pay rent; and then at the end of the day, after they move into these facilities, they find out that the property that was traditionally a family home and the land under it which was federal lands which they had thought they had the right to hand down to their next generation, and their generation after that, which may have been in that family for 10 generations after 1921 when the treaties were signed.

They put trust in government to take care of them. For people here, who take the whole idea that economics, commerce and taxation is a way of life, for some people it was imposed on them. I think you have to look in a lot of communities, especially the aboriginal communities where taxation is a foreign thing. A lot of people have lost property because of things they took for granted as someone was there to take care of them. It was either the Department of Indian Affairs, because they were classified as treaty Indians or basically that you had an agent who was there to take care of interests at home as administrators.

If you go to a lot of these communities today, a lot of land that was once traditionally known as property for a particular family, the Charlie Family, the Vitrikoff Family; if you look at the old maps of how these communities were built; they were all traditionally lots of land which were put aside as Indian land for Indian people. But today those properties are no longer Indian land for people, because either the agent gave it to someone for business purposes or it was lost because of the transaction of an individual moving out of the home that they traditionally owned into what we call now the Housing Corporation which gives social housing to aboriginal people so they can live. By making that decision, there was a misunderstanding that we will give you this place, it will be better than the house you live in, you did not have to pay any rent, and now a lot of people are getting evicted because they do not pay their rent. They had a home in the first place . They do not have that any more. A lot of people today get tax assessments in the mail. Especially a lot of the elders, get them five or six times in the mail, and they are wondering if the police are going to come knocking on their door because they do not know how they come to owe this much money.

If you look in the assessment, it says $85,000. For them it is a lot of money. They do not understand why they have to pay that. So they come to an MLA or a band council and say, look, I got this in the mail. I got a bill. They do not understand the process. But I think the whole idea of taxation, especially in regard to that, there is a battle now on between the whole question about the federal responsibility in the north, especially where land was put aside for use in communities which have been sold to the private sector for other purposes in which the band no longer has the opportunity to go through the negotiation process of claims.

Also, there is an obligation under the treaties to establish reserves. But if the land is not there in the communities for the aboriginal people to establish, what other lands are going to be available to them?

I think from my view, this is an issue that has to be looked at because it is based on the fundamental rights, which are handed down under treaties and also protected under section 35, the Canadian Constitution.

Also, the exemption that aboriginal people have to taxation such as property taxes on lands in communities where those lands still exist. There has to be more of an effort made to look at the whole area, any taxes or any means of taxes on aboriginal people who have rights which are protected under the Constitution, and also under the obligations the federal government has.

I believe a lot of aboriginal people who thought they were protected when they built houses on federal lands and now receive assessment notices, and a bill for taxes, are wondering what happened? I think this has to be cleared up.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I just want to remind the Members that this bill, specifically relates to Municipal Taxing Authorities, tax based municipalities. Some of the comments Mr. Krutko is making may refer to incidents which took place in tax-based municipalities at some point in time. I would like to remind Members that the intent of the bill is towards taxed based municipalities. Minister Thompson.

Thank you, Madam Minister. Further general comments? General comments. Clause by clause?

Clause 1. Agreed? Thank you. Clause 2. Agreed? Thank you. Clause 3. Agreed? Thank you. Clause 4. Agreed? Thank you. Page 23, clause 5. Agreed? Thank you. Clause 6. Agreed? Thank you. Clause 7. Agreed? Thank you.

Bill as a whole. Agreed? Thank you. Does the Committee agree that Bill 20 is ready for Third Reading? Agreed? Thank you. Bill 20 is now ready for Third Reading. Thank you, Madam Minister. Thank you, witnesses. That concludes Bill 20 and 25 in committee of the whole. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Miltenberger.

Madam Chair, I move we report progress.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. There is a motion on the floor to report progress. We do not have a quorum so I will have to ring the bell.

We have a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order. It is not debatable. All those in favour of the motion? Those opposed? Motion is carried. I will rise and report progress. Thank you.