Well, I would hope to try and get it done as quickly as we can. Certainly in an ideal world I would like to do it while session is on. I am not making excuses for it, but my deputy minister and his staff have got a workload that is significant right now with division, formula financing, et cetera. I am optimistic that we can conclude the policy paper which shows the changes in place as a guide to our bureaucracy to operate under, hopefully, by the end of February but certainly if not, April 1, 1998.

Thank you. General comments. Mr Picco.

Thank you, Mr, Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I just had some questions on the Financial Management Board Secretariat, if that is appropriate at this time? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, earlier in response to the Budget Address I had some concerns with social housing, the lack of social housing and I tried to articulate those. I also brought up in question period today concerns of staff housing and I should note that on page 4 and 5 of the report of the Committee on Infrastructure which I happen to be a member of and the tabled document that is before us, indeed, we had requested that the department - and I should read this out for the record - 'the committee was concerned that there were few housing options available to accommodate transitional staff such as teacher, nurses or doctors. Some professionals had difficulty finding adequate housing or are forced to pay exorbitant rents for existing housing."

Some of us may remember the case in Pond Inlet about two months ago as an example. The committee had requested that the department provide a listing of the remaining staff housing units by community and the age, condition and descriptions of each of the unsold units and also the ones that were not marketable due to lease problems that we had understood. I wonder if the Minister for FMBS can update us on the situation regarding staff housing, indeed, if he is trying to make them available in communities for our staff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

I think I have indicated in question period when my honourable colleague asked me the same question that we were dealing with these on a community by community basis and the fact that the Pond Inlet one is a little stale-dated because we have solved that problem, but I am being sincere. I do not quite understand my honourable colleague's line of questioning. I am saying, if he can give me specific areas where there are specific problems I will be only too happy to address them. We have a responsibility to deal with, on an ongoing basis, adequate housing, affordable housing for our staff. One person may define affordable housing one way, another may define it another way so it is very difficult to give him an answer that would satisfy him unless I can be specific.

We are dealing on an ongoing basis with the housing situation. We will provide the House and the committee with a breakdown of the houses that have not been sold. You will recall that we did say, where staff housing that has not been sold and is no longer required, we would then transfer to public housing. We will identify that as well. Again, there may be cases that I do not know about and if there are I will be only too happy to know exactly what they are and we will deal with them in terms of availability and affordability. I think those were the two issues. Again, I repeat, we will give you a summarized breakdown of the request that was asked for in the report Mr. Henry spoke to earlier. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, yes I think I will be able to table some documents in this House, hopefully tomorrow, with regard to the concern for housing. I do know, for example, Mr. Chairman, in the Kitikmeot region as an example, the divisional board of education has called on some particular concerns they have with housing. Hopefully, we can bring those up tomorrow.

I am finding contradictions in the statement by the Minister. I know that in previous discussions some of our committee members had brought this up and that was that we were going to get out of housing and that was the whole reason for selling staff houses. Yet, the Minister just said again that, indeed, we have to find affordable and quality housing for our staff. Sometimes I find it difficult to correlate both answers. Are we getting out of staff housing and we are going to leave them to find their own housing or, indeed, are we going to help them find affordable and quality staff housing? Because we did have quality, affordable staff housing in communities, but now we have gone to the position where we have sold them and our staff are having trouble finding suitable housing. That has come through in several different questions and statements in this House before. So, I find it a bit of a contradiction. Maybe the Minister could just clarify that, are we out or are we in or are we half in and half out? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

My honourable colleague knows full well that when I was referring to staff housing it was government owned housing and, in fact, we still provide staff housing to leasing agents all across the territories including in his own riding. We are, in fact, trying to get out of government owned and government supported staff housing. The cost effective housing that was provided before, of course, was highly subsidized and I think that is an important point to bring forward. We are, if I can go back again, I hope my colleague will be able to bring to the House tomorrow specific examples of where we are not meeting the needs and we will address them as we do on a day-to-day basis through the normal course of doing government business. The policy of this government is to find affordable, reasonable housing for our staff and we are doing that. It is not without its bumps and grinds. I mean, that is what government is all about. That is what running a business is all about. That is what life is all about. So, I do not know how else to answer it than how I have. If it is not adequate, then maybe my honourable colleague can ask me specific questions and I can try to answer specific answers.

Thank you. Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Indeed, I am aware, of course, that we are leasing housing. I am aware that we have gone to the private marketplace. I was trying to make the inference here that, indeed, between the two areas, Mr. Chairman, that we have stand alone houses owned by this government. We have sold them off. In quite a few cases where our staff people never bought the houses and were left in a position that they did not have suitable housing. That was the point I was trying to make. Following up on this line of questioning, I understand, I think it was two years ago, there was a trial run of a property management service contract let by FMBS to manage staff housing units and other property owned by this government in Rankin Inlet. Now I understand that there may be a move to take that trial pilot project that was done over there and do it in other areas, including my riding. I wonder if the Minister could update us on how we are going to look at privatizing the O and M, the property management of other units, staff housing that we have, in other ridings across the Northwest Territories in general. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think for the record, it is important to respond to the first part of my honourable colleague's question, and that is with respect to those members of the government that did not purchase their housing. It was not that they were not given the opportunity, they just chose not to. I think that is important. As I said on

a number of occasions, I found it somewhat difficult to comprehend why they did not. Anyway, with respect to the privatization of property management, it was a two-year exercise, I believe, in the Keewatin. Under a group called the Piruqsaijit Group, which is a locally owned development corporation, Inuit owned. My understanding, talking to Mr. Voytilla, we are in the final touches of evaluating that. I think it would be fair to say that we are generally pleased with the way it has gone, so far. My desire would be that we would go out, not into Iqaluit, but into the Baffin. It just would not be, I know you particularly like to talk about your riding, but there are other communities. We would be going forward with the property management tender that would look after the remaining housing stock that the government has in any private sector housing stock that the government leases.

However, we are in discussions with the Interim Commissioner's office with that because we are still trying to come to an agreement on the protocol agreement with respect to contracts that go beyond 1999. So, no decision has been made. My desire would be, as the Minister responsible, to proceed with a property management contract in the Baffin Island. We are still discussing that with the Interim Commissioner. Assuming we can get him on side, we would like to proceed with that. We think there is some value in that. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, indeed, I do, like every Member here, like bringing up questions and concerns from my riding. Thank you very much. I would also like to add that I would like to see your property management proposal and privatization of property in the Baffin region, as you just stated, because, indeed, the Baffin Island is only x number of communities but the Baffin region includes Resolute Bay, Grise Fiord, Hall Beach and Igloolik, which are not on Baffin Island.

Just for clarification, I would like to see your property management contract that you just talked about being deferred, indeed, until we have a chance in this, as Members of this House, to look at your evaluation and a cost benefit analysis of the property management that was privatized in Rankin Inlet before you try to proceed with doing an RFP or anything else in any other region of the Northwest Territories. So, I would like a commitment from the Minister that, indeed, the Members of this House will have an opportunity to see that analysis. Indeed, to see if it was cost productive. Because sometimes, yes, the private sector can do x number of things great and maybe cheaper, but not in all cases. I would like to see an evaluation of that property management contract before the Minister tries to implement it in my region of the territories. So, I would like to have that commitment from the Minister. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Mr. Todd.

I am glad my honourable colleague cleared up how many communities there were in the Baffin region. I think I travelled them all in 1976, I am not sure, when I worked in that area and enjoyed it thoroughly. It may be, Mr. Chairman, that we are still working out the protocol agreement. My desire would be to move forward on doing a privatization of the remaining housing. However, I will give Mr. Picco's concerns some consideration and advise him once I have decided what course of action we would take, but I will give his comment due consideration.

Thank you. On the list I have Mr. Erasmus and Mr. Krutko. Mr. Erasmus, general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the pay equity issue, the Minister had indicated that he was hoping to include it, I believe he mentioned, in the bargaining sessions with the union. I just got a copy of the union's distribution Eye on the Ledge here, in which Miss Simpson was quoted as saying "we are not going to be discussing the pay equity dispute in the bargaining session scheduled to set terms with a wider collective agreement." So, I was just wondering if the Minister would be kind enough to indicate how this is going to happen? Is it actually going to be in the terms of the wider collective agreement or is this going to be on the side? How will this happen, please?

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Well, we would certainly like to include them both, because, you know, on the pay equity side you have the retroactivity and you have got the ongoing adjustments that have to be made. If we are going to do a collective agreement effective April 1st, we want to maximize the dollars to our female staff that historically have had a pay equity inadequacy. So, all we are saying is, on one side you have retroactivity, on the other side you have the ongoing costs. We would hope that we could come to some agreement with that. That is one of the reasons. There are a number of others, why we tied them together. I am still optimistic. I have not seen Miss Simpson's Eye on the Ledge or her comments, but our bargaining committee have instructions from me to try to link both issues so that we can get the maximum benefits that are affordable to our staff into their hands as quickly as possible and so that this does not go on and on and on. Our staff have waited for ten years. This is a ten-year issue. Both Mr. Voytilla and myself want to solve it. We want to get money into the hands of our staff that rightly belongs to them that this government can afford. Therefore, we would like to link them both and get on with concluding an agreement.

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I am just not clear. Does the Minister mean that the pay equity issue will be tied to the settlement of the new agreement?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.