This is page numbers 371 - 406 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was yellowknife.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 394

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on the Electoral Boundaries Commission Report of 1998, I just would like to say that in the north here we are going through a very challenging time. Division and all of the different initiatives that are going on, particularly in the aboriginal communities where there are land claims and self-government negotiations going on, the political landscape here in the Western Territories is very fluid. We do not really know where it is going to end at the end of the day. With this electoral boundaries it is certainly going to have an effect on the whole political landscape. I would like to first of all thank the three members of the commission for the work that they have put into producing this report and for the recommendations that have come forward.

Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, originally when we have talked about this in the last few years in the Western Caucus, we were just going to keep it at 14 seats at one point in time. I think there was general agreement at one point in time to keep it at that number. A Member from Inuvik had initiated this whole process to see what will happen and we are in the process of determining what is going to happen. My initial reaction was that we thought we had an agreement to keep it at 14 but if there is an opportunity to make a presentation on behalf of the Nahendeh constituency where I represent the most communities of six. Even though I think I am doing a good job it still is a very difficult process to try to go into the communities and keep in touch and try to get their concerns and try to address them.

It is very difficult today, for example, Mr. Chairman, the ability for any of my constituency to be in the gallery as a good example to hear this important debate. It is very difficult because it is freezing time, the ice is not forming on the Liard River, it is very difficult to travel with the fog, the snow and the freezing rain. It is very difficult to even charter at this time of the year. Just that alone is an indication that there are differences throughout the north. Every community is different from each other. Some are small and some are large but all of the concerns are real.

We, as Members of the Legislative Assembly, it is our task to try to deal with these issues. Based on those kind of arguments I made a presentation to this commission that the constituency of Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake, Jean Marie River, Wrigley, Fort Simpson and Fort Liard, should have an additional seat if Yellowknife is going to get one. I thought one of the objectives of this commission was to balance the rural and urban areas. It says here that the commission should strive to maintain a balance between the urban and rural population and take into the consideration the culture and linguistic interests of the territories. I do not think they addressed that particular issue, Mr. Chairman. In their report, they say that even though they have heard other people in the other parts of the Western Territories asking for additional seats they say that, I quote: "We have resisted a broad approach and have decided to recommend minimal change at this time."

They go through examples that of political history here in the Northwest Territories is unique, and requires that we be conscious of the struggles of Northerners for responsible government as well as the desire and right of aboriginal people to attain and play a meaningful role in the Legislative Assembly.

Although the commission had tried to do its best they did not really concentrate on one of the key areas of the task that they had to undertake in maintaining a balance between the urban and the rural. They have decided to recommend two additional seats for Yellowknife and there are no other seats going to be issued to any other small communities in the North. I guess one of the Members was talking about, why are people talking about not giving seats to Yellowknife? My view on that is that it all boils down to power, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it is the power of the ability. The more seats you have in one constituency in one community in this Legislative Assembly, then you have more power to influence the decision of this government. Once this whole Legislative Assembly is shrunken down to 14 after division, and then if we add two more seats to Yellowknife, that is going to really throw the balance of power off to the community of Yellowknife.

As you can tell from people in the north and representation of most of the MLAs who are representing their communities here, Yellowknife does not have a very good name in the rest of the Northwest Territories and will continue to do so in the future. This is no slight on the people that come from Yellowknife, but it is a fact. It is our capital of the Northwest Territories and will continue to be the capital of the Western Territories and we should be proud of the fact that it is our capital. I do not think that there is that much pride in this community being our capital and I have expressed my opinion to members of this city council on different occasions that there should be an effort by the city to promote Yellowknife as the capital for all the north and not only turn its own attention to the interest of only Yellowknife. This is the capital of the Northwest Territories and I think there is a general feeling here as expressed by some of the other MLAs that generally there seems to be special treatment here that goes to Yellowknife. They are a strong government centre as well as the industry hub for the north and we have here as a government and this Legislative Assembly, been able to accommodate Yellowknife.

Maybe because of the newspaper that has the monopoly in the north, is centred here and dedicates one of its papers solely to Yellowknife that all of the focus is here. There are other things going on in the other communities but there is not much attention or not much financial help going over to the communities and it is out there in the public. There is a strong resentment out in the communities towards Yellowknife because of that.

Due to our Legislative Assembly being here and the access to the politicians and the senior bureaucrats are there, some Members say that that is irrelevant, decisions are not made that way, but there is strong influence. Whenever you talk to somebody as a Member of the Legislative Assembly, a politician, you take their word and it influences you somehow or another. The daily access to the MLAs is a strong factor. In this whole discussion here, I had to phone my own communities to try to get some feedback and it is not as good as a face-to-face meeting.

Based on that I would like to recommend that we take the existing population of Yellowknife and divide it up into the four existing constituencies to knock it down to 4,000 and something, and that would be pretty close to the biggest number in other communities. With that, I will not be supporting these recommendations, but we should look at it closely in the near future in the new government. Thank you.

--Applause

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 395

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. General Comments. Mr. Rabesca.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

November 11th, 1998

Page 395

James Rabesca North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a short comment on the commission report. Mr. Chairman we have read this report with great interest. Some of us felt disappointed in the fact that our requests are not considered at this time. We also feel disappointed that the report made reference to the presentation that the Mayor and the Chief of Rae-Edzo did during the consultation process of the Boundaries Commission. As I am sure everyone read, my community and regions are supporting the idea of having one more MLA for Rae-Edzo itself, and one for three outlying communities. I believe this is a very good option due to a number of factors.

Firstly, the population of Rae-Edzo is approximately 1,662, which makes the community the fifth largest community in the western Arctic. The differences of community development between Rae-Edzo and the outlying communities are vast. Rae-Edzo currently has a fairly good infrastructure with basic upgrades to the overall system being required while the other communities are in their early stages of development. The needs of the people in Rae-Edzo compared to other communities are very different. Over the course of this Assembly and during my predecessor's term in office, many times there has been conflict between lobbying for something that is needed in Rae-Edzo and at the same time lobbying for something needed in the communities. When only limited dollars are available for one project, I then must make a decision as to which community should get what they are after.

It makes it unfair for MLAs to ensure all the residents are treated equally and fairly. I believe that Rae-Edzo is large enough to require its own MLA and over the next few years can see Rae-Edzo expanding considerably. In Yellowknife we do not have one Member lobbying, representing his or her own constituency in their ridings but rather have four MLAs represent the whole Yellowknife. With this in mind, I support an addition of two more seats to be distributed outside of the Yellowknife area.

I would like to comment that this has been a difficult job for the commission and would like to congratulate the commission for the hard work and time that they have put into this document. It is a very hard thing to decide what region should or should not get an extra seat. In closing, I would like to thank the commission for the good job they have done, but not too satisfactory a structure to some of us. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

--Applause

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Rabesca. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all I just wanted to apologize for being late today. I was going to drive back from Hay River and be here on time but we had a rather blustery snow storm. I held off, so I do apologize for my lateness and my attire. Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Electoral Boundaries Commission Report, I think that there has been some confusion surrounding this report in that different areas in the north seem to be answering different questions. I believe when the commission came to Hay River the message was very clear from Hay River, that they wanted to see the number of MLAs remain at 14 until after division and until after the issue surrounding the western constitution and governance had been determined, then look at the issue of the number of Members. Hay River took a fairly strong position that we should remain at 14 Members, until those other things are determined.

The second question is, if it were determined there was a need for an increase in the number of seats then certainly a number of communities would have been looked at in that light, including Yellowknife and Hay River. As the commission report stands right now, if it were adopted they way it is, it would see Hay River as being quite disproportionately under represented with only one Member. I am trying to break this out and trying to convey there are actually two questions here.

On the first question of the number of MLAs, it is my position, and that of most of the people I have talked to in my riding, this is premature, to look at increasing the number of MLAs until after these other issues of governance and constitution have been thoroughly addressed and determined. With that, Mr. Chairman, those are my remarks and I will not be supporting the Electoral Boundaries Commission Report. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Any further general comments from the membership? General comments. Mr. Ootes.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If there are no further general comments, I would like to make a motion.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. There has been no indication from Members wishing to make further general comments. Proceed with your motion please, Mr. Ootes.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the current electoral districts of Yellowknife North, Yellowknife Centre, Yellowknife Frame Lake and Yellowknife South be redrawn to create six electoral districts as outlined on the appendixed map.

And further, that the electoral districts be named Range Lake, Kam Lake, Frame Lake, Great Slave, Yellowknife Centre and Weledeh. Mr. Chairman, I believe the Clerk is handing the motion around.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. The motion in written form is being distributed to Members. Thank you. The motion has been distributed to Members and the motion is in order. To the motion. Does anyone wishes to speak to the motion? Motion. Yes, Mr. Ootes.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 396

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will say a few words and perhaps other Members would like to comment as well. On this motion, I would like to remind Members and would appeal to them about the commission's report. I think we have to remember that it was ten Members who voted to set up the commission. While it may not have addressed to the satisfaction of some of those Members for their particular constituencies, I think we do need to make note of the fact that the membership of this commission, which was a Supreme Court justice, as Mr. Steen so well put. I think he did make reference to the fact that we should not take this lightly. It was a Supreme Court justice who was the chair of this and made a recommendation. I am sure she would have considered all situations that could impact upon her decision.

Also there was the former government leader on this commission, who is a lawyer and he is from Fort Simpson, and certainly represents very well the viewpoints of his people. There is a Member from Tuktoyaktuk. She also represents very well the viewpoint, the needs and desires of her people. It was a unanimous recommendation to add two seats to the City of Yellowknife. It was a recommendation that considered the issue of voter parity in our community. That particular recommendation would restore the equality of representation. It would restore voter parity to a great degree. I would remind Members, Yellowknife has grown substantially over the years. While arguments can be made that, what is the difference of having four Members? Well, four Members were established years ago.

I would also remind Members about, and it is a critical issue to me, the ability of us, as Ordinary Members, to be able to function as a government. We cannot function with seven Members. I want to remind Members of that and would appeal to you to understand that. It is easy to sit here today, but one year from now, believe me, for those of us who may be fortunate to be returned, if you so desired, we will tear our hair out trying to make this government accountable. We will tear our hair out trying to run committees. There are a number of committees this government has. You cannot operate each committee with two or three Members. There is sickness involved, Members who may have to be away during House sessions or committee meetings. It is impossible to meet. I would appeal to Members now, to vote in the right way. I think it is critically important to us to do that. Please, do not throw this out. I think it is a good recommendation and we may have some difficulties if we do not proceed with it. Thank you.

--Hear, Hear

--Applause

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 397

The Chair John Ningark

To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 397

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it has been an interesting debate this afternoon. We have heard from a number of people that constitutional development will continue. There is no question. I said that myself. I do not think it is right to expect the public government to stand still without knowing how long that is going to take. It does not necessarily affect the end result if the numbers of MLAs change in terms of who has what jurisdiction and how the systems work.

As far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, we definitely need more than 14 seats to make this House work properly. Sixteen is not as many as I would like to see, but I recognize we have to respect the work of the Boundaries Commission and what they heard from the public in their travels across the north and I think we have to reflect that in the decisions we make in this House.

Mr. Chairman, I understand the frustrations expressed by Members about the disparity of economic opportunity across our regions. I understand the frustrations Members have expressed about the ease of access to government. I think we have to, as a government, try and address those situations as much as we can. We have to try and improve the situation. But we have to say again, Mr. Chairman, that the laws of Canada also say we must respect the rights of the individual as guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As legislators, we have a responsibility to live up to the expectation of the public that we will respect the laws of Canada. The laws of Canada do allow for some variation in constituencies to reflect geography, community history, community interests and minority representation. Our current makeup of constituencies does reflect these differences. In fact, Mr. Chairman, these differences will still be reflected and respected, even with six seats in Yellowknife as recommended. I would point to Tu Nedhe and Deh Cho as still there and not being challenged. I think there is a recognition that geography, difficulty of access, does play a role.

To protect the diversity we now have, and the right of the smaller constituencies to exist, we have to support the recommendations of this commission. Mr. Chairman, I will be supporting this motion and would urge other Members to do so. Mr. Chairman, at the appropriate time, I would request you would have a recorded vote, please.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 397

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Your request is noted. Mr. Henry. To the motion.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 397

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Roland, Mr. Rabesca, Mr. Krutko, Mr. Steen, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Morin, Mr. Kakfwi and Mr. Antoine. I ask you to do the right and just thing. Vote in favour of Mr. Ootes' motion. As hard as that may be for you, you must do it. When you go home to your own community and your constituents ask you, why did you support the motion? You can tell your constituents, I did nothing more for the residents of Yellowknife than I would do for my own constituency. Tell your constituents, the guiding light and principle from which we all draw our strength collectively, is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Tell your constituents, this document gives each of us the right to know we are all equal. Tell your constituents, that we legislators voting in favour of the motion to give two more seats to Yellowknife is protected and enshrined, your right, the right to equality. To have equality, you have to give equality.

Tell your constituents the process was fair. Tell your constituents we had some of the brightest residents above reproach from the Northwest Territories sit on the Boundaries Commission. They came up with recommendations for two more seats to a constituency. We had a judge for the Supreme Court of the Northwest Territories. We had a well respected government leader from a previous government. We had a member at large from the Tuktoyaktuk Community Corporation and a member of that community. I would point out two outstanding ladies and one outstanding gentleman. Tell your constituents we did not have a choice. Tell them we voted in favour of establishing a commission. We put it in place with the best people we could find. Their recommendations are fair and just. That is why we voted in favour of the motion. I will be supporting the motion, Mr. Chairman, and I would encourage all Members of this House to do the same. Thank you, sir.

--Applause

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I have Mr. Miltenberger.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will not be supporting this motion. Though I would like to thank Mr. Henry for the marching orders he has given us in what to tell our constituents and how to think on this particular issue. I believe we do have a choice. We always have a choice. This is a political arena. It is not a question of right or wrong. It is what is going to be at the end of the day. What this body thinks is in the best interests of the Northwest Territories. Will the government stand still after division? Regardless of the number of MLAs, this government will not stand still. We are

going to be on our own for the first time as a Western Territory and we will evolve. Be it with 14 or 16. I think we create bogeyman out there by all the doom and gloom that is going to happen with 14 Members. I am confident we can make the adjustments necessary to run with 14.

As my colleague, Mr. Kakfwi, indicated, our job is to make tough political decisions. Mr. Henry has made it somewhat of a practice to keep telling us what is good for Yellowknife is good for everybody else. Sometimes I do not always think that is the case. In this case I think a strong Northwest Territories is good for Yellowknife. I will not be supporting this motion and I would trust my colleagues will make the right decision as well, so when we go back to our constituents we can look them in the eye and tell them we made the decision we made because we are in touch with our constituents and not because we were instructed to do so by the Member from Yellowknife South. Thank you.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 398

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I have the honourable Member for Inuvik, then the honourable Member for Hay River. Mr. Roland. To the motion.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

I will not be supporting the motion. Originally I was not going to make a response to this, but since a number of Members have pointed out, as I did as well when I made my first general comments, that I moved the motion to establish the Boundaries Commission. I figure some clarification there, along with why in some cases some people would says that I have put on a different coat today. I look it as the reason for the commission was to hear from the people. I believe if you look at every community that the commission went to visit, a large number of people came out and said, enough government. I am elected by people in Inuvik. I represent them here. When I go into a committee meeting, I am one. While other people in committees of this government influence the direction of government in Cabinet, there are four. That tells me right there the ability to influence. Based on that, Mr. Chairman, and based on what the people of my community, the majority of people have said, I cannot support this motion. Thank you.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 398

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I have the honourable Member for Hay River, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, let me say what a wonderful community I think Yellowknife is and what a wonderful input and contribution the four Members from Yellowknife do make to this Legislature. I want to say that I respect that input very much and I appreciate working with them. However, at a time when it is decided by the majority of the people in the Northwest Territories that more Members are needed to be elected to this legislature and it is determined what number that will be and how that will be evenly distributed amongst the population, I am certain I will have no trouble supporting two more Members for the City of Yellowknife. However, as a Member representing Hay River and I look at this report and I see that the percentage variance from average of Hay River, with Enterprise removed, is still at plus 46 percent, I cannot in good conscience support putting that kind of disproportionate representation to my own community in favour of Yellowknife.

However, if in the future, as I said before, when some of the constitutional and governance issues are established and it is determined that we do need more than 14 MLAs in this Legislature, I will be all for supporting Yellowknife's equal and fair representation in this legislature with additional Members at that time, if so determined. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will not be supporting this motion. I had a constituency meeting on Tuesday night in Fort Simpson. I polled all my communities. I laid down what the recommendations were. I did not give anybody any marching orders. I just laid out what the arguments were. In representing my constituency from this distance, not having the ability to go face-to-face with all of them, based on that I cannot support this motion at this time. Thank you.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Any further comments to the motion? Question has been called. Honourable Member, Mr. Dent, has requested a recorded vote, so it shall be a recorded vote. All those in favour of the motion, please stand.

Committee Motion 7-13(6): Motion To Create Six Electoral Districts For The City Of Yellowknife
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Deputy Clerk Mr. Schauerte

Mr. Ootes, Mr. Erasmus, Mr. Henry, Mr. Kakfwi, Mr. Dent and Mr. Steen.