Thank you. I would like to thank Mr. Todd and his witnesses. We would then move on to the next department. We are now dealing with Municipal and Community Affairs. I would like to ask the honourable

Minister, Manitok Thompson for opening comments on the department.

Thank you, Ms. Thompson. I would like to recognize now the Member for the Standing Committee of Infrastructure and ask him to present the committee's comments on this department, Mr. Barnabas. Mr. Ootes, do you wish to speak?

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if we could get a copy of the Minister's statement and also for other departments. I believe last time, we agreed that we would have the statements provided at the time that they were presented. So perhaps if the Minister could give us copies of her statement? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. I am informed by the clerk that copies are on the way, and you should have them shortly. As well, other departments will receive copies. Mr. Barnabas, do you wish to proceed with the committee's comments on the department's estimate?

Thank you, Mr. Barnabas. I would now like to ask the Minister if she would like to bring in witnesses?

Thank you, Mrs. Thompson. Does the committee agree that the Minister may bring in witnesses?

Would the Sergeant-at-Arms bring in the witnesses and seat them? I would like to ask the Minister is she would be kind enough to introduce her witnesses to the committee?

Thank you, Ms. Thompson. Welcome to the committee. I now open the floor to general comments on the department's estimates. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we get into the detail, I will have more specific questions. I would just like to highlight some of the areas of concern that I will have questions on in the coming time that we are going to spend at the table together. I am interested in a more detailed discussion on the issue of empowerment for a number of reasons, one as it relates to the Keewatin pilot project since we met with the mayors this morning and exactly what is being proposed. I am also concerned from the empowerment perspective of the South Slave where there is a perception, I know among the Metis leadership, that empowerment, in their eyes, seems to be seen as undermining some of the basic negotiating issues that are being dealt with through self-government negotiations with the federal government.

I am also interested in a more detailed discussion, when we get to that particular item, in the area of taxes and the reassessment that is being referred to in the Minister's opening comments. Specifically, I am interested in the difference between tax-base versus general taxation areas, the split, possibly on a per capita basis, but the issue is related to those general taxation and that assessment. I would also be questioning the Minister on capital infrastructure issues in Nunavut just so I can have a clear idea of what is happening. I have heard, for instance, that in fact construction had, at one point, stopped for some reason and that costs were in fact quite high. I will be asking for further detail on that.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I am interested in a more detailed discussion as well on the issue of monitoring and evaluation of all communities and value for money, and how many communities are in fact operating in the black. This is a very critical issue, I think, that has come to light not only with MACA but with health boards and I think all the boards that this government funds. The whole issue of monitoring and evaluation, support and training are critical components of the partnership that exists between the department and the communities in the regions with the boards they set up. I will be asking more detailed questions at that time as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Before I recognize Mr. Ningark, I would like to remind the committee that we will continue with the procedure we established whereby all Members put forward their general comments, and then we will ask the Minister to respond. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. General comments on the department's estimates. Mr. Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regard to the whole initiative of community empowerment and the ideas of assisting communities to basically take on more responsibilities, it is a good idea. I think at the end of the day, there has to be adequate resources in place to ensure that the ability of those communities to take on these initiatives are properly funded. There has to be more emphasis given to the communities to allow those negotiations to be concluded in a speedy time frame. I am talking in regard to the community of Aklavik where they have, for several years, been involved in the community empowerment initiative, of looking at the Joe Greenland Health Centre in Aklavik in regard to taking that over and looking at the whole area of programs and services. It seems like it has come to a complete halt in which everything seems to have stopped. Basically, now with those initiatives, the Joe Greenland Program, for instance, where

they were negotiating to take over the elderly facility in the community, and when the negotiations started, within a matter of months, the department established certain conditions on the facility which had no bearing on those negotiations.

In regard to the resources to carry out those negotiations where the funding has been cut off in regard to the community aboriginal committee who was heading up those negotiation talks. Also, the whole initiative of community empowerment does not mean you just give the community dollars to administer. You have to allow them the ability to have the adequate resources to not only be able to administer it, but also have the proper operations and maintenance funds and the resources to ensure they have the support and the back-up that those human resources people have to carry out their jobs. I think allowing the municipalities to have the ability not only to generate revenues but to retain those revenues regardless if it is in a surplus or what not, but identify the human resources and training that is needed to take over these programs.

Regarding the whole process of communities, we have to get away from this initiative of how we evaluate community needs in regard to infrastructure in communities. We have to start looking at it in regard to the needs of everybody not just based on a formula that determines how many telephone poles you have, how many culverts or what type of infrastructure you have in your community, either water delivery or utilidors or recreations centres or schools. I think there has to be a more fair way of allocating funds to not just the larger centres but the smaller communities so that they have the ability to have the adequate resources so they can offer those services which all the other centres have, in all the communities, not just in the larger centres.

Smaller communities, such as Tsiigehtchic, where you have a charter community which has a lot of good ideas as to how they would like to see things and be able to take on a lot of these responsibilities, they do not have the revenues in the formulas used to allow them to take on more responsibilities to deliver programs and services and taking over government assets and resources in those communities.

The concerns to date I have raised in this House about infrastructure, such as the water problem that arose that came up in the House with regard to the Fort McPherson water problem, there has to be a faster way of identifying resources, trying to put forth the plans and implement them in a faster period of time than what it has taken to date to look at that problem. It has been almost two years since that issue was raised in the House and still today, it is still being studied. There has to be some mechanism in place in regard to how do we address community items and prioritize them, when it comes to a health question or in relation to the question about replacing infrastructure in a lot of these communities.

We have to be able to look at the whole idea of block funding communities with the idea that you have to be fair to everyone. A lot of communities are hesitant to take over the initiative of block funding or the whole community empowerment idea because of the cuts that a lot of these communities have taken in regard to programs and services delivery. They have seen the cuts to service that was provided previously before we found ourselves in the financial problems we had. I think because of that concern, not only from the councillors' perspective but the residents' perspective on the quality of service that they have received in the past versus what they are receiving today. People are saying we do not want to take on something that does not really work today and because of the backlash that they receive from a lot of the residents. They seriously look at the whole idea of empowerment of taking on something when they already have a big enough problem on their slate right now, without trying to take on something else.

We have to give the communities comfort and the resources to do the jobs in such a way, especially when you are talking about deliveries of programs and services to communities and having the adequate resources and the adequate facilities and infrastructure in those communities to meet the needs of all the residents of the Northwest Territories, there has to be a clear plan in place. What we seem to be doing is piecemealing the whole community empowerment initiative by doing certain pilot projects in some areas and looking at other areas in regard to the whole regional initiatives, like block funding. I think it has to be done in such a way that everybody feels that they are a part of this government.

The other concerns to the whole human resource training side, where we have to allow the communities to have the resources when they do take on these responsibilities for training and for those individuals who will take on these responsibilities to be adequately trained and meet the criteria so they all qualify in regard to whatever programs are being delivered. There has to be a process with checks and balances in place to ensure that there are adequate resources, adequate training and adequate infrastructure in place to assist communities in regard to concerns people have about culverts, water run-offs, concerns of flooding of the communities in springtime and concerns about the infrastructure as a whole. One thing that worries me, possibly most of all, is the age of a lot of our infrastructure in our older communities. Eventually that infrastructure is going to have to be replaced and at what cost is that going to have a bearing on a lot of our communities? For us to look at the size and the population growth in our communities, we have to ensure there are adequate gaps left so that it does take on the extra population booms that are going to be happening in the future. Develop projects in such a way that it is big enough, but also meets the needs of the communities, not only ten but 20 years down the road. When you have to replace that equipment or the infrastructure, there is enough room for expansion or movement within the community that it can take it. You do not have to keep piecemealing it together and upgrading facilities to meet that demand as the years go on, so it has the capacity to take on those responsibilities.

In closing, I would like the Minister to take into account that there are other processes out there in regard to the whole self-government initiatives that communities are looking at. In my riding, in which it is complicated with the whole self-government questions, how does community empowerment fit into the self-government picture? I think for communities to hear community empowerment on one side, then see self- government negotiators walking around the community a week after that, it is kind of confusing for them to see how it all fits together. I think it is important that we try to streamline these initiatives so that we allow the communities to better themselves and take on these responsibilities in a more meaningful way in regard to the timing of a lot of these efforts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Are there any further general comments on the department's estimates? Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the past I have brought up the issue of tax-based versus non-tax based communities and the way support is given. I believe there still needs to be some work done in this area. Over the two years we have seen reductions and I think tax-based communities, in my opinion, have taken the brunt of it. For example, reductions in water/sewer rates usually meant an increase in taxes. Thankfully, in the community of Inuvik, they have managed once again to not give us an increase. I think that is an area that needs to be worked on.

Another area is the CTV Act as we talk about community empowerment. I am sure there must be changes in the CTV Act to accommodate some of these community empowerment initiatives, because it is spelled out fairly clear in the City, Towns and Villages Act what communities can do and how they must operate. I am interested in that area as well, as to some of the changes that are occurring. There were some changes made this last sitting we had to that act, but I think there is ongoing work. I would like to know where we are at with that.

In the area of community empowerment, I was one who spoke in support of it, and I still believe that it is an area that requires work. Unfortunately, the big thrust of community empowerment came when we were doing a lot of reductions. Communities were not too enthusiastic in taking up the idea, especially when they learned they were going to be taking less funds for a lot of the operations. Hopefully, with the budget being settled down here where we do not have any more reductions to focus on, that would continue. I think also, due process as we heard earlier, needs to be done. For example, in a community like Inuvik, they are undergoing self-government negotiations that will have a very significant impact on the way business is done with this government, for some time yet, before that concludes. That is something that needs to be looked at. Again, it impacts tax-based and non-tax based communities, how revenues will be treated and so on. I look forward to going through the budget and addressing the specific concerns I have raised and hope to get some information that I can share with members of my community. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I would like to recognize Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Picco. General comments on the department's estimates. Are there any further general comments? Mr. Erasmus.