Thank you, Mr. Todd. Your motion is in order. To the principle of the bill. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Your motion is carried. Bill 19 has had second reading and accordingly, the bill stands referred to a committee. Second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Bill 7, with Mr. Steen in the Chair.

Agreed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The main purpose of these amendments to the Territorial Court Act is to provide for changes to the composition, procedures and the role of the Judicial Council in order to meet the standards of judicial independence established by recent court decisions. The amendments also introduce a new Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee and term appointments of the Chief Judge and clarify the judicial independence of deputy judges.

In the current legislation, the Judicial Council recommends appointments in the Territorial Court and is involved in the disciplinary process when complaints are made regarding the conduct of territorial judges. The NWT Court of Appeal in the Timila Group of Decisions in 1992, identified concerns with the composition of the Judicial Council and recommended that the act be amended. The court found particularly that there was a potential for interference with the judicial independence of judges in that the Minister of Justice appointed the majority of members of the Judicial Council and that the Minister is not bound by the recommendations of the Judicial Council or the results of a judicial inquiry into the conduct of a judge in deciding whether a judge should be removed from office. In those cases, the Court of Appeal found that the challenge under the Charter failed only because there were vacancies in the Judicial Council at the time and said that the government has a moral duty to introduce amending legislation.

The amending legislation also separates judicial appointments from judicial discipline and provides for extensive lay representation in a new Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee. Katherine Peterson, Queen's Council, Special Advisor on gender equality and the law, in a report to the Minister of Justice in 1992, recommended that there be significant lay representation and gender parity in the judicial appointment process. In the current legislation, the Chief Judge is appointed for an indefinite period. The trend over the years has been to move toward term appointments of Chief Judges. This is already provided for in eight of the 12 jurisdictions. The rationale for the term appointment is that it allows for the periodic infusion of new energy and new ideas into the position.

The amendments of the Territorial Court Act, provide for the introduction of five-year term appointments and the appointment of the incumbent to a five-year term. The amendments also clarify that the judicial independence of deputy judges is protected to the same degree as full-time judges, and clarifies that a deputy judge serving for a term appointment must be a judge, or retired judge, and may not be a lawyer. As a result of careful review of this bill by the Standing Committee on Social Programs, two amendments were made to the bill and I will be proposing additional amendments to the Committee of the Whole.

Mr. Chairman, I and my officials are available to answer any questions you might have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for his opening remarks. First of all, I would like to thank the Committee Members of the Standing Committee on

Social Programs. Good afternoon.

The Standing Committee on Social Programs reviewed Bill 7, An Act to Amend the Territorial Court Act, 1998 at its meeting on April 20, 1998 and May 21, 1998. The committee appreciates the assistance of the Honourable Steven Kakfwi, who presented the bill on behalf of the Minister of Justice on April 20th. The committee would also like to thank the Minister of Justice, who appeared before the committee on May 21, 1998, to respond to issues of concern that the committee had brought to his attention. Officials from the Department of Justice also assisted the committee on both occasions.

Bill 7 is, in large part, a response to developments over the last several years relating to judicial independence in the Northwest Territories and across Canada. Two directly related decisions are decisions of the Northwest Territories' Courts. In 1992, the NWT Court of Appeal held the composition of the Judicial Council, the body that hears complaints against territorial court judges, would violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms if all the members of the council were appointed. The court also committed that the Legislature has a moral duty to amend the Territorial Court Act, in this area.

Mr. Chairman, in 1997, the NWT Supreme Court held that provisions in the Territorial Court Act, relating to deputy Territorial Court judges violates the Charter because the deputy judges did not have security of tenure. The court also laid out rules relating to conflict of interest for judges. As well, the Supreme Court of Canada has committed that the judges should not be appointed solely at the discretion of Cabinet.

Mr. Chairman, instead, there should be consultation with an independent body. Bill 7, would amend the Territorial Court Act to change the process for the appointment and discipline of Territorial Court judges. The amendments do not affect justices of the NWT Supreme Court.

The bill would establish Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee, which would make recommendations to the Commissioner in Executive Council about the appointment of Territorial Court judges; amend provisions dealing with the independence of deputy Territorial Court judges to protect their security of tenure or to restrict their outside business activities; provide that the Chief Judge of the Territorial Court may serve as Chief Judge for only one five-year term and allow the current Chief Judge to serve for another five years; authorize the Chief Judge to establish for the continuing education of judges and for the performance evaluation of judges; change the membership of the Judicial Council, which is the body that receives, investigates and makes decisions about complaints against Territorial Court judges and change the grounds and methods for discipline of Territorial Court judges.

The standing committee questioned the Minister and his officials about several aspects of the bill. Following our decisions, the Minister agreed to amend the bill in response to some of the committee's concerns. A motion was passed in committee to amend the bill to increase the lay representation and the Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee from three to four persons. This will create equal balance between members with a legal background and those without, on the committee that makes recommendations to the Cabinet about the appointment of Territorial Court judges and deputy judges. The same motion also amended the bill to clarify that the lay representatives must not be members or past members of any law society in Canada.

A motion was also passed in committee to address a concern raised by the Minister. The bill was amended to provide the members of the Judicial Council who serve on a subcommittee that investigates a complaint against a judge may continue to serve as a member of the council in subsequent proceedings on that complaint.

Mr. Chairman, Members discussed this proposal with the Minister and were advised that the procedures of the council will be set by the council and that this amendment would allow the council to ensure that a quorum will be maintained in those circumstances where that might be a concern.

Bill 7, has now been reprinted as amended by the two motions in standing committee. Some Members of the standing committee continue to have concerns with aspects of the bill. The bill requires the Law Society and the Commissioner in Executive Council to take into account the importance of reflecting the diversity of the population and the gender balance of the Northwest Territories when making appointments to Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee. However, the bill does not require the Law Society and the Commissioner in Executive Council to consider these factors when making appointments to the Judicial Council and the disciplinary body.

The committee recognizes that the legal community and the benches in the territories are small and that half of the Judicial Council is composed of serving judges. However, in the view of some Members, these principles are fundamental to improving the quality of the justice system, and it will not be too restrictive to require that they may be given some consideration.

A further outstanding area of concern deals with recommendations for compensation for legal costs. The bill provides for the Judicial Council to consider whether it should recommend that the government pay the legal fees for the judge who is the subject of a complaint. However, the bill is silent as to whether the council should consider recommending that the legal fees of the complainant be paid.

The committee is well aware a person who files a complaint against a judge is not responsible for prosecuting the complaint. However, Members feel that there will be circumstances in which it would be appropriate for the complainant to hire legal counsel. The complaints that go to full inquiry are rare, and it is not suggested that the complainant's legal fees should be paid in all cases. However, some Members feel the bill should specifically authorize the Judicial Council to consider whether it should recommend that the government should compensate the complainant for his or her legal fees.

The Minister advised the standing committee that he would review these two matters further. The Minister provided the committee copies of two motions intended to address these issues and we understand the Minister will move these motions to amend Bill 7 today.

The first motion would amend clause 10 in three areas. It would clarify that the lay representatives on the Judicial Council may not be members or past members of any Canadian Law Society, so that this area of the bill is consistent with amendments made in standing committee in relation to the Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee. It would also require the Law Society and Cabinet to consider the diversity of the population and the gender balance of NWT when appointing representatives to the Judicial Council, while making it clear that a failure to achieve balance does not invalidate proceedings for decisions of the council.

Finally, it would add a provision specifically authorizing the Judicial Council to recommend that a complainant be compensated for his or her legal costs where a complaint is before the council. The motion would provide that the council may only recommend compensation where it determines that the legal costs were necessarily incurred due to the nature and circumstances of the complaint.

The second motion would amend clause 11 to add the power to make regulations respecting or limiting the amount of compensation that may be recommended to be paid to a complainant. The power to make regulations on this matter in relation to compensation for a judge's legal costs already exists in Bill 7.

Mr. Chairman, committee Members may have additional comments or questions on this bill as we proceed. This concludes standing committee's comments on Bill 7, An Act to Amend the Territorial Court Act. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have with me Mr. Gerry Sutton, the Assistant Deputy Minister for the Department of Justice and Denise Gagnon, with our Legislation Division.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I also had some concerns with Bill 7, in that the Law Society and the Commissioner in the Executive Council should have taken into account the importance of reflecting the diversity of the population and gender balance in the Northwest Territories as outlined in the committee's concerns. I guess the Executive Council did not consider those to be important, when bringing the bill forward, even though they were raised by the standing committee in consultation with the Minister. I would have liked to see something on the grounds that indeed that would have been included so the diversity of the Northwest Territories could have been factored into the legislation.

I also understand the recommendation for the compensation of legal costs. I think that was another area that we kind of maybe missed in the process. I know the committee had brought it forth. The committee in the report actually pointed out the bill is silent as to whether the council should consider recommending that the legal fees of the complainant be paid. I would believe in a lengthy judicial process, there are very few people who could take it forward without having some kind of compensation afforded. Now in that regard, for example, we have just seen recently where a case before the courts here regarding Members of this House, their compensation charges were covered. I would assume the general public would be entitled to that, too. That was a concern that I thought might have been raised.

On the whole, I think Bill 7 is a progressive piece of legislation and maybe the Minister or one of his staff people, later on when the opportunity arises, could answer some of these concerns. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you for the comments. From what I understood from the comments by Members, there are two main issues. Large ones mind you, but the first one dealing with gender and aboriginal representation in the judiciary as spoken about by Mr. Krutko and Mr. Picco, and specific issues about Chief Judge duties that Mr. Ootes talked about and of the legal fees. Incidentally, these were issues that the standing committee felt quite strongly about. We, the government, did review it with the committee and as I stated in my opening remarks, we are making motions to amend the bill so that it incorporates, number one, some principals on the diversity of population and gender balance when considering membership to the Judicial Council, and also enabling a section on the payment of legal fees for those making complaints. We will be making amendments on those specific issues as they come up.

If I could make a couple of very general comments about aboriginal representation in the judiciary, the comments by Mr. Krutko are very much typical of what I hear in the communities as I travel as a Justice Minister, ensuring there is representation of the aboriginal people in the judiciary. The judiciary is something that is very important to the public, and it is important to the department as well. We do have some good examples of how there has been progress in the system. Mind you, we understand that we have a way to go. Things like aboriginal recruitment in the RCMP and the police force has made some good progress.

We have a program now to get more JPs from the communities and more consideration for aboriginal and women in the JP system. Most recently, we have made sure that when we hired a group of correctional officers to correct a shortage of officers in the whole system, we had almost two dozen correctional officers who we consciously said that the majority of those would have to be of aboriginal descent, and we have done that. That is very recent. All in all, the issue of restorative justice and of community justice, is one that is very important. I am proud to say that we in the north, especially the small communities, have been pushing this issue along for many years and, happily, we heard the federal Minister of Justice saying, when she talked about the Youth Offenders Act, that it is now a priority and an important issue for the Canadian government. I am glad that we have been leaders in that field. That is a good thing overall.

On the issue of duties of a Chief Judge, Mr. Ootes asked if it was merely administrative function. The Chief Judge's duties are to preside over administrative functions for the Territorial Court judges, of which there are two others. This has to do with scheduling of court cases, of travel functions, making sure that cases are heard in as timely fashion as possible, office related issues, et cetera.

Those will be my comments, if you want, Mr. Chairman, I would ask Mr. Sutton to maybe make a quick comment on the issue of legal fees paid on behalf of complainants as we will propose later on. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I understood the question correctly from the Member as to why the compensation for legal costs of the complainant was not included in the bill originally. The view of the department was that the scheme in the act is to provide an avenue for any person to make a complaint to the Judicial Council respecting the conduct of a judge. Legal advice should not be necessary for that, and there should be no restrictions on the kind of complaint that a person might want to make. Once the complaint is made, the matter comes under the jurisdiction of the Judicial Council who takes charge of the matter and commences an investigation and an inquiry into the conduct of the judge. As the committee report indicated, it is not the responsibility of the complainant to prosecute the matter. It is the responsibility of the Judicial Council to take charge of the matter and make a determination.

As the Minister has indicated, he will be making a motion that will allow for the Judicial Council to make a recommendation that the complainant be compensated for any legal costs that the complainant may have incurred in those, perhaps, rare instances where, in fact, the complainant may require the advice of a lawyer. I think there was also a question as to whether there were guidelines respecting the financial support for the complainant. There are no guidelines in place. There is a provision in the act that will allow for regulations to provide for certain restrictions on the amount of compensation. The decision as to whether there will be a recommendation that compensation be paid, that will be a decision of the Judicial Council. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.