This is page numbers 357 - 395 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was highway.

Topics

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 376

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 376

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the department has what you could call an office plan for Yellowknife because it is continuously being amended as client departments amend their needs. At the present time the department is working on a plan and we will be moving forward with this plan, but I note that in the past the previous Minister committed to holding briefings with the committee as information briefings and the floor plan, the office floor plan. I am prepared to reaffirm the commitment to have this briefing with the committee to update them on the floor plan. However, perhaps Mr. Rattray can be a little more specific as to exactly where the floor plan sits right now.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 376

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Rattray.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rattray

Mr. Chairman, I am afraid the plan is turning out to be a little bit more of an exercise than we had anticipated and that is largely because of the situation with respect to the departments and staff in Yellowknife being quite dynamic. We are having increasing difficulty in trying to forecast what the different departments' requirements are going to be over the next number of years. Part of that is due to departments simply coming to terms with the post-division structures and trying to figure out what the implications of division have been on their headquarters organizations. Part of it relates to the need to continue to provide services, for Nunavut, the continued need to have staff to provide some of those services and the number of departments that are continuing to negotiate arrangements with the federal government for joint delivery of services, for example, or other program changes or adjustments. What we found is that it has been very difficult to pick a point in time when we can say this is what the picture looks like and this is how we are going to do it. We kind of refocused a little bit and downsized our expectations of a planning document here and we are really starting to deal with requests on a case by case basis. We have some reasonably firm information on a few departments that we

need to deal with in the short term and we will be proceeding with those, but in terms of a longer term plan, we need some additional stability in the organizational structure of the government before we can actually really develop any kind of plans comparable to the plans that have been done in the past. Again the Minister has indicated that we would be prepared to provide a more detailed briefing. It is hard to provide that in a short answer and we would still be pleased to do that, but as I say, it has become an increasingly difficult target at the present time to try and achieve.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 377

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Rattray. I have Mr. Krutko.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regard to the communities taking over the responsibility of the Department of Public Works, with regards to Aklavik there is a situation where the community was considering taking over the responsibility of the department as far as maintaining infrastructure in the communities, but one of the problems they ran into was that they did not have the resources to maintain the people that presently were there in the Department of Public Works and also have trained, qualified individuals to take over that responsibility such as the hamlet foreman. I would like to ask the Minister, has the department, along with the municipalities, considered the process that they can work together to ensure that they do have any transfers that take place from the department to a community, that they do have qualified individuals trained and knowledgeable of maintaining the infrastructure in a lot of our small communities? Has anything been done to consider finding a workable solution between the department and the municipalities with regards to such transfers?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 377

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Steen.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I believe that part of the conditions of the taking over the responsibilities of Public Works and Services to the community is the ability for communities to supply qualified people and I believe it is referenced in the contract, but again I will ask my deputy to confirm that as we are dealing with one specific community here.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 377

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Rattray.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rattray

I cannot speak to the specifics of Aklavik, but in general, there has always been a concern with respect to transfers to individual communities about their ability to provide the kind of full range of services. That is largely because we, as a department, were able to spread the costs of positions over a large number of communities and were work planning as a component of it, we would have an individual who plans work for ten or 12 different communities. Providing that same level of expertise for every individual community is simply, there are not enough resources to be able to do that, so the solutions really have to be community specific solutions. In some cases, there are existing hamlet foremen that are already providing a significant number of services and the addition of the assets previously maintained by Public Works was not a significant change in what they were already doing. Those have worked out, obviously, well. In situations where there was not previously much in the way of previous involvement in significant maintenance work, there was not an established planning capacity within the community, then that has to be looked at the time the transfer agreements are negotiated and we have to be a little bit innovative in terms of how we deal with it.

In some cases, the communities may simply be too small to be able to effectively carry out the range of functions that are required to be carried out, but each community is a little bit different and, again, I do not know the specifics of the negotiations that took place in Aklavik and what the issues there were, but certainly trying to provide sufficient resources for all communities to be doing the types of work that we have been doing has been a real challenge.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 377

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Rattray. Mr. Krutko.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. One of the issues I have brought up in the House in the last week is the whole question about contracting, delivering service to this government especially on an as and when basis, in that the Department of Public Works still maintains a lot of infrastructure in our communities, except in most cases one of the larger contract providers for such specific contracts on the as and when needed basis, so I would like to ask the Minister exactly why is it that a lot of service providers in the smaller communities seem to be overlooked when a lot of these service contracts are being filled and most of them are being filled by the regional operators at larger regional centres, yet we have community entrepreneurs who have established a business or are trying to get themselves up and running. There seems to be no recognition that there are community businesses in place. The Department of Public Works issues a lot of these contracts and services. What is your department doing to monitor and ensure that local contractors do have an opportunity to bid on government contracts within the Department of Public Works?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 377

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you Mr. Krutko. Mr. Steen.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The department does have the option of using different types of procedures in order to award the contracts to perhaps address the issue of allowing for small contractors to obtain some of the work and one of those options is the sole source contract which is applicable to $1,000 or less, if the service work required $1,000 or less, it could be sole sourced. There is also the option of as and when contracts and those could be either negotiated or public tendered and anyone qualified, in particular if they are registered with BIP, they could be qualified to put in a tender and also be considered for a negotiated contract process. So there are options for small contractors to get involved, but I may have missed something here, so Mr. Rattray here maybe could probably better explain the process.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 377

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Rattray.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rattray

As the Minister says, there are a number of different approaches that we can take. Certainly, on an annual basis in virtually all of the regions we will tender for as and when trade services, for example, to carry out maintenance activities. Now, they are usually tendered out based on the regional centre

and, for example, in the Inuvik region, there will be a number of contractors that will bid on, whether it is plumbing or electrical services, they will bid for the work.

If we know there is a contractor in a small community that is already located in the community and is in a better position to deal both quickly and less expensively with a particular issue, then we will typically use that individual and, as the Minister says, that is typically considered if it is a small dollar value of work or on a case by case basis we can justify that as a sole source contract because they are there and ready to do the work and, if they are the only contractor in that community, then we can deal with them as a sole source and that is typically what we do. If for some reason they are unable to respond, then we have the fall-back of an established contract that may be of more regional interest or regional scope. On other jobs, if a particular item of work is sufficiently large we may decide to separate it out and do a tender on it. So there are a number of different approaches that can be taken if we know there are qualified contractors available.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 378

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Rattray. Mr. Krutko.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Could the Minister or the deputy minister make an attempt to meet with his regional directors who are responsible for public works in the regions because I think one of the concerns I hear from a lot of the local businesses, is because they do not have access to the regional directors which puts them at a disadvantage, say in a case of Aklavik, if you are not able to walk into the regional director's office and have access to knowledge that certain contracts are coming out at a certain time, which is basically only privy to the regional centres, which is not posted in all communities, that the regional directors who are responsible in each region make an attempt to travel to all of the communities and meet with each of these business people, such as KLR Plumbing in Aklavik, so they know that these individuals are in the community, know who these individuals are, know the name of Richard Storr and who the individual is and also know what he can provide.

For some reason in my region it seems like the BIP process got chucked out the window and that only the regional centres are taking advantage of all the government contracts. The people in the communities are struggling to get contracts out of this government. There is something wrong with the system and I believe the system is people having access to certain offices in the region, while community businesses do not have this access on a day-to-day basis. I think in order to expand the knowledge or the accessibility of these individuals to the communities and start promoting themselves in the community, who they are, and exactly what department they represent, and know who the business community members are in our small communities, this may be one way of avoiding this problem. It always seems like it is left up to, you keep referring to BIP, sole source and all these other contracts but it does not take a genius to figure out where most of these contracts are being issued. Yet there are not too many of these being issued in my riding. When you see a company having to fly from Inuvik to go to Aklavik to fix a furnace, and then fly back to Inuvik where you have an individual in a community who can do just as good a job and do it in a couple of hours instead of having to jump on a plane and charter to Aklavik and charter back after they maintain a furnace does not make economic sense. I believe this government has to spend more time and effort promoting and assisting local entrepreneurs in our communities to stimulate the local economy of those smaller communities and I strongly believe that is not happening so, I would like to ask the Minister if there is a possibility of this happening within his department and to promote those regional directors so they are made aware who these entrepreneurs are.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 378

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Steen.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 378

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, first of all I believe the Member is referring to regional superintendents rather than regional directors. I commit to the department perhaps meeting with the regional director and sit down and see if we can come up with exactly how we can better advertise our needs. There is no doubt that this would be beneficial to the department if we can get cheaper services directly from the communities, however, I am not sure here if the problem is partly that we would be competing with our own as and when contractor. Nevertheless, there is obviously a need here for the department to advertise its needs and also somehow to get a list of those qualified businesses that are existing in the small communities and that are available for work. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 378

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Public Works and Services. General comments. Mr. Krutko.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I have a question in regard to petroleum products. There has been a lot of talk about negotiated contracts, sole source contracts and whatnot in this government, yet petroleum products have contracts in a lot of our communities for fuel delivery and also service contracts to deliver fuel in those communities where they do have fuel products. Again, Madam Chairperson, a lot of these contracts have been placed for years on end and basically just renewed year after year after year without going to the public tendering process, and I would like to know exactly what the department is doing to ensure that there may be opportunities for groups? I will use McPherson as an example, there has been a gas station established, Standard Petroleum, which is owned by the bands of McPherson and Inuvik which they established to deliver fuel and they also have a gas station and yet, there is also the Co-op which delivers fuel on behalf of this government and also has a gas station competing against an entrepreneur in the community in which they have an advantage because they also have the fuel contract for this government which has not been put out for public tender for a number of years. Arctic Co-op Limited is based out of Winnipeg. Yet, Madame Chairperson, this contract has been renewed year after year after year without going out to public tender. Why is that?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 378

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Steen.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 378

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I know in the past a lot of these contracts were renewed on a six month or a year basis because there was consideration to the fact of privatization of petroleum products but I think that move has

been put on hold. Perhaps Mr. Austin can give us some clarification as to what the plan is now as far as renewing those contracts.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Austin.