Director of finance, Mr. Devitt.

Thank you. General comments. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess my ten minutes were up, and I would defer to another Member, but I have other issues I would like to address to the Minister. I will continue on then. Another idea with going back again to the cost of administration. I hear the numbers that you are using, but the information and our research would indicate from the numbers you have provided to us that it is more in the neighbourhood of 10 percent. A model that has been referred to earlier today in the House is that the Dogrib Community Service Board integrates decision making for education, justice, health, social services, and income support for the region with one decision-making body. This model must increase efficiency in the regions and reduce the cost of administration. Has the department or the social envelope promoted the use of this type of delivery in other regions? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The social envelope has not discussed that issue specifically. We are, of course, looking at it I know from Education, Culture and Employment as well as from the social envelope perspective, we are watching to see how it works and is it, in fact, a portable kind of approach that would work in communities that are possibly not as homogeneous as the Dogrib people. There is a considerable amount of benefit if it does work in terms of the issue that my colleague has raised in regards to how much you spend on administration and streamlining, decision making and lowering those costs. We are looking at that particular approach to see if, in fact, it is transportable as I have indicated. But there has been no firm decision to go elsewhere and encourage communities or regions to take on that particular model. Thank you.

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do think that is an area of administration. This is not to be critical of administration, but I think we really need to look very seriously at every area of expenditure to see not only from other sources but even if there are ways of creating more efficiencies within the department of Education, Culture and Employment, and certainly that does not preclude the fact that we need to also find new resources to bring to bear from outside of the department as the budget exists now. Another area that has been discussed and is putting a tremendous amount of stress on the education system is the pupil/teacher ratios. Mr. Chairman, in 1996, the Deficit Elimination Act led to budget limitations that now require districts to limit the number of teachers while the number of students continue to increase. The PTR for the NWT increased by 2.5 from the school year 1994-95 to the year 1997-98. The average actual class sizes are larger than presented in these numbers. As also included in the calculations are positions that do not require classroom teaching, for example counsellors, teacher librarians, and administrative staff. I think that these numbers that are given to use in terms of pupil/teacher ratios are a bit misleading, and I do not believe that they are reality as the classrooms operate.

Compounded with increasing sizes are classrooms with students with diverse level of abilities. Other challenges such as poor attendance, behavioural problems, learning difficulties, physical challenges, fetal alcohol effects, fetal alcohol syndrome. Mr. Chairman, according to the Minister's answer to my question regarding pupil/teacher ratios on April 28th of this year, individuals that are not teaching a full classload are included in the PTR calculations. For example, principals, vice-principals, teacher librarians, and counsellors. Actually, it appears that only individuals that are excluded in the ratio are those who have less than two years of post-secondary training, classroom assistance, language specialists and janitors. It would seem that they are the only one excluded from the pupil/teacher ratio. When the department quotes a ratio of one teacher per 18 students, I believe that this information is somewhat misleading because this means that the teacher part of the PTR also includes people who do not carry full teaching loads and in some instances, do not even teach a class at all. These PTR figures are misleading, as I have said. Has the department ever calculated what the PTR would be if only the equivalence of full-time teachers in a regular classroom were used? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Not that I am aware of.

Mr. Minister, are you going to respond to the question?

Mr. Chairman, I did not check whether my light was on. What I had replied, is not that I am aware of to the Member's question in terms of have we looked at just looking at straight teachers and students and not calculating in principals and support teachers and such who may not be full-time teachers, that the PTR is a funding ratio for the most part. We have not, that I am aware of, looked at strictly classes, although we are aware that the class size varies, as I indicated in the House, from the larger regions to the smaller regions, from the larger communities to the smaller communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question then to the Minister, is would the department be willing to determine what the PTR would be if only full-time equivalent of teaching staff were used in the PTR. I think this would give us a much better indication of the kinds of challenges that are facing our educators. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the department would be able and willing to pull those figures together just to look at the actual operational classes and come up with the sizes across the territories. Thank you.

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Another factor which probably, and you have alluded to it already, distorts somewhat the PTR ratio is the PTRs that were supplied by the Minister to the Assembly cover the full regions and all grades. Some communities may have smaller class sizes and also as the grade levels go higher, there is usually a drop in the class size. This means that when averaged out, there are going to be classes with high numbers that compensate for classrooms with low numbers. Are there a maximum number of students presently allowed within one classroom? This is another area, Mr. Chairman, where the numbers can be distorted. We understand how the average works, that there will be higher and there will be lower. But, in some cases in probably some of the higher grades in the smaller communities, they are is very small so you may have very much higher than the PTR that is indicated. Does the department set a limit on the number of students that can be in one classroom? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I indicated, the pupil/teacher ratio is used for the funding formula and to determine the budgets for the various divisional boards. Once that figure is calculated, the money is then transferred to the various DECs and it is up to the DECs to determine the class sizes in their community schools, but there is no educational policy or regulation that limits the size of the classrooms.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Mr. Chairman, educators recognize how important the first years are for the future success of students. It is important that there be the early diagnosis and intervention with children with learning problems. This would be difficult in classrooms were there are large class sizes. It would be difficult to pay that kind of close attention to each student to be able to identify these problems. Has the department any policies that recommend schools to have a lower pupil/teacher ratio in the lower classes so that these problems could be identified, diagnosed and picked up early on in a child's education as opposed to later on? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The class size from K to nine, I believe is roughly 22 and from nine to 12 it is 17. Once again, there are no limits as to us dictating to schools, to teachers, to DECs as to the size of their classes. Once again, once the budget is calculated, there is no requirement either way. The Member also touches on an issue that has significant implications, and that is the whole area of special needs and finding what is a special need, is it FAS, FAE, ADD, is it that level or how broad do you want to make it, I guess, is the issue which would affect the amount of money required. There is a recognition on the importance, as the Member indicated, of trying to get involved early with children and families which is why money was put and supported by the committee, put into the Health Children's Initiative, why there was money that was freed up, put back in to make sure we could keep the funding at that level. We recognize, as do the Members, that special needs is an area of significant concern.

It is also our assumption, based on the numbers we do have, that special needs requirements in the Northwest Territories are probably higher than southern jurisdictions. Thank you.