This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Members Present

Honourable Jim Antoine, Honourable Charles Dent, Mr. Erasmus, Honourable Sam Gargan, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Henry, Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Krutko, Honourable Michael Miltenberger, Mr. Morin, Mr. Ootes, Mr. Rabesca, Honourable Floyd Roland, Honourable Vince Steen.

Oh, God, may your spirit and guidance be in us as we work for the benefit of all our people, for peace and justice in our land and for the constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of those whom we serve. Amen.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

July 29th, 1999

Page 721

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Rabesca. Good morning. Mr. Antoine, your point of order.

Point of Order

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in reviewing unedited Hansard, I noticed yesterday in his Member's statement, the honourable Member from Yellowknife North used the phrase "proverbial wooden Indian" in regards to Members of this House attending committee hearings this summer. Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure from reading the unedited Hansard which Member the honourable Member was referring to.

I find the reference itself quite offensive and unparliamentary. I would like to ask the honourable Member if he would withdraw the remarks so that it does not remain as part of our public records. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Proverbial - proverb - the word itself is not unparliamentary. The Members of the Executive can take offence in the context in which the word has been used and I will allow debate on the point. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe there is a point of order there. Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with removing that. What would the Premier wish to replace those words with? The sentence is still there. There has to be something, we cannot just leave it blank.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

I think if the Members would look at the Hansard, page 1170, you look at the first sentence before the point of order was raised, following the sentence after that, that it does not affect the reading. "It is obvious that the Ministers present at the community hearings did not listen to their constituents' presentations. They did not hear the constituents saying we are afraid". So removing that is what the Minister is requesting. The sentence still makes sense. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Speaker, it loses some of the meaning. I do not mind taking out those three words. If he wants to tell me what else he wants to have sit there like I do not mind. I will take out the proverbial wooden Indian. He can put whatever else he wants to sit there like. Thank you.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

It is not up to the Premier to make suggestions on what should replace those three words. Eventually, it is still the Speaker who will decide whether or not the Premier does have a point of order. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There have been a lot of remarks made in the course of this Assembly in the session this week. There have been many remarks made about the rift that is existing or going to be created between the non-aboriginal and the aboriginal people of the North if this government does not take decisive action and provide leadership and whatever other remarks were made. I believe that the remark "wooden Indian" is stereotyping with racial overtones. It is a racial slight on those of us that sit in this House that of are aboriginal decent. I do not believe that the point is to get into grammatical discussion about what should replace those remarks. The point is an apology and a withdrawal of those remarks will correct the record that they were said, they are not acceptable, and there should be an apology and an acknowledgement that they should not have been said. That would, I believe, help to correct the record and the perception of the public about how we do business in this House. Thank you.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Thank you. To the point of order. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate that those words, in reference to our Premier, as a Member of this House, I find offensive and insulting. I agree they were made by an aboriginal person. Just to put them in context, if they had come from one of the non-aboriginal Members, I think that there would have been a huge uproar. I think just because Mr. Erasmus is also a First Nations person does not excuse that, and I take offence as an insult against our Premier. Thank you.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Thank you. To the point of order. Mr. Dent.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would argue that the Premier does have a point of order under either section 23(k) or perhaps 23(h) of our rules. I believe that the Premier, in raising the point of order, indicated that he was not certain that it was to him that the words were referring, but if I correctly heard the Member from Yellowknife North in his initial response to this, he asked "What would the Premier like me to replace those words with, what did he sit there like?", which makes it very clear to me that this sentence does, in fact, refer to the Premier and, therefore, if the Premier believes that he has been slighted under rule 23(k), I believe that there is a point of order.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Thank you. On the point of order. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 722

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Speaker, I do not see any reasoning in Mr. Dent's words. Just because a person feels he has a point of order, it does not mean he has a point of order. He actually has to have one. I have not heard any actual reasoning why it is a point of order, but I have agreed I will take it out. I will say bump on the log then, okay. My whole point was not a racial slur. It could have been anything that could not listen. A wooden Indian cannot listen because it is a piece of wood. That is all I said. If you read my words, that is what it means, so I will say a bump on the log.

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 722

The Speaker

Thank you. To the point of order. I will make a ruling on that point of order as soon as we have copies of the Hansard on this short debate. I would like to have it done before we go too far into the business of the House, so I will make my ruling as soon as possible. Orders of the day, item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, at this time, I would like to thank the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs for his Minister's statement yesterday in regards to an Aboriginal Sports Circle being established. I find it is long overdue that we have come to a point where we have established an organization to develop the youth in our communities. Mr. Speaker, almost 32 percent of our population is under the age of 14. Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest problems we have in our communities is the self-esteem of our youth and the younger people not having the resources to partake in sporting events, or not being able to have the opportunities that you have in the larger centres by way of having resources to basically compete at the territorial and national levels. Also not having the resources to have coaches and resource people in the communities to assist them to develop that self-esteem and move on in regards to themselves, to be competitive, to develop their emotions, their mental state, and also their physical state.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is more than just establishing an organization. We have to be able to have the resources for these organizations to do the work and to ensure that they are funded to be able to carry out their responsibilities. I, for one, fully support this initiative. For myself, I have been involved in cross-country skiing, I was on the NWT ski team for five years at which it was probably one of the best times of my life development from the small community of Fort MacPherson and travelling to national events in Alaska, Quebec, Ontario and also the northern part of the United States. With that I would like to thank the Minister for his efforts and to continue to strive to work along with the Aboriginal Sporting Circle for them to develop and find the adequate resources to move on and be successful in what he is trying to do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the greatest challenges facing our government today is how to preserve what is right and to fix what is wrong with our health care system. This government has spent vast sums of money on studies on how to improve our health care system. Study after study, hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on consultants. In fact, in the last two Assemblies it is in the millions of dollars.

Mr. Speaker, we have seen a plan to address critical needs shaping our future. A strategic plan for health and wellness, community wellness, working together for community wellness, a directions document, the Northwest Territories Health and Social Services strategic plan or otherwise referred to as Med-Emerg Study. The Med-Emerg Study alone cost this government $780,000. Now I understand that there is another initiative underway, the Forum on Health and Social Services. In the last government, we also had a similar forum coordinated by a special committee on Health and Social Services. People all over the Northwest Territories were able to add their input through over 200 workshops, meetings, and other public events. We should, by now, know what we want.

Mr. Speaker, every dollar that we spend on consultants' workshops, meetings, travel and committees is another dollar that we take away from our health services. After all these studies, I think we know what we need and what we want to do. Mr. Speaker, I know that we can work together to solve this problem and find a northern answer to this very northern challenge. I ask both sides of this House to proactively work on this problem. I suggest that we start by using the data that we have already gathered and spend proposed funding for further studies on taking care of our people. Study time is over, Mr. Speaker, and it is time to get down to work. It is good to seek input from other people, but, as leaders, I think that the people expect us to stop asking questions at some point and start answering them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Ootes.

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Good morning, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, over the last couple of days, I have spoken about economic issues, specifically those sectors where good potential exists for increased revenue generation. Forestry is one economic sector that deserves more attention. When most people think of lumber resources in western Canada, they think of the softwood forests of BC or the hardwoods of northern Alberta. Few people realize the potential in the Northwest Territories. NWT spruce and aspen, as well as Jack pine and birch cover 61 million hectares in the NWT. The commercial harvest of sawlogs in 1996-97 was about 190,000 cubic metres with a value of $21 million. It is estimated that a sustainable annual harvest of 500,000 cubic metres of spruce and pine saw logs is possible. That translates into a potential commercial value of $55 million. In other words, we could easily double the annual harvest in sawlogs. Then there is still the commercial potential of lumber, finished woods, and furniture products. In 1995, the housing sector investment in the NWT was over $60 million. With such a strong demand

for building materials, there is a strong market potential for locally produced lumber. Almost 70 percent of the NWT forest products sold in 1996 went to southern markets, and the majority of this was in the form of raw logs and rough lumber. Raw log harvests and exports may be economical, but it produces only limited northern benefits. What we need to realize is that the NWT forest industry has the potential for more than just rough lumber.

Value-added industries can be developed in veneer and particle board manufacturing and furniture-making, to give several examples. Demand for NWT forest products is high and is expected to remain so. What we need is better inventory and a strategy for value-added industry and support for private enterprise in this area. More extensive and better detailed forest inventories would provide the information investors need in order to build on the economic potential of the NWT forest sector. Sustainable development of the NWT forest sector is dependent upon industry, community and government working together. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Members' statements. Mr. Antoine.

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, since it is Friday and I am trying to make sense of what has been happening to me here in this House in the last few days, again in the House as MLA for the last eight years and holding different offices and coming from being a chief formerly and coming from the Dene politics side of life, I just wanted to try to make some sense of what has been going on here in the House. As well as having played a lot of hockey in my young days and still occasionally lace it up for a few old-timer games, and some charity games, I start comparing politics to full contact hockey, knowing that when you get into the game, you know you are going to get hit and you know that you have to keep your head up and that you have to make sure that when you go into the corners, you watch out for elbows and but-ins and so forth. I think that has been happening here in the last few days.

There are some in this House who refer to this team here as, somebody was making reference to a duck. I would like to say that I would prefer to be known as the Mighty Duck Team rather than the Lame Duck Team. I am confident that there is the name that some of the Members are referring to in their remarks. As well, I looked at the opposing team and just recently an old pro from this team got traded to that team, so he has a lot of tricks and a lot of talent, and he seems to fit pretty well with a couple of the players on the other side, and they have been playing pretty good together. However, we have to keep on going here. We still have this day left, and I just wanted to say that we will keep our heads up and the other side keep their heads us. I would also like to thank you, Mr. Speaker, since you are the referee, you know all the rules and all the old tricks that players often use, as well as the skates in the crease when you score, that sort of stuff. I would like to thank you for making sure that not much gets by you. With that, I would like to thank you. Mahsi.

--Applause

The Speaker

Thank you, and thank you for the compliment. Yes, I am old, so I should know all the old tricks. Members' statements. Mr. Rabesca.

James Rabesca North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today, Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on what my communities are receiving as a result of negotiated contracts for the construction of housing units. We have heard many times, over the life of this Assembly, that negotiated contracts should not continue. They do not provide the benefits of lower cost, for example, that tendered contracts possibly can achieve. I have argued, as have some of my other colleagues, that these types of contracts should remain as they do indeed provide many benefits to the smaller communities. In my region, all of our communities have negotiated construction contracts with the Housing Corporation and are starting to work or awaiting materials.

As I have said many times over, these contracts do provide badly needed employment and training opportunities in the smaller communities that have high unemployment and rates in low education levels. The residents want to work, and this is a great way to get residents working and at the same time, provide good quality homes that are also needed badly in our communities. With this, I encourage this government to continue with these types of contracts for our smaller communities so they can continue to provide the residents with employable training. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mr. Henry.

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize an organization in Yellowknife who provide a valuable community service. Mr. Speaker, the group I am speaking of is the Yellowknife Association for Community Living. This association advocates with and on behalf of people with intellectual disabilities and their families in the Northwest Territories. In 1963, the first group of parents formed the association to seek support for their children. Since then, this association has grown and now supports individuals, families, and children in three communities in the NWT. The association is a member of the Canadian Association for Community Living and is represented by board members and self advocates at the national level.

The emphasis in the programs is first and foremost on the community inclusion. The Abe Miller Program provide opportunities for integrated training and employment of 24 people with intellectual disabilities. The Employment Support Services supports 19 people in employment in various businesses and government in Yellowknife. The Summer Café, which is operated by clients of Abe Miller, offers delicious luncheons in a pretty outdoor setting next to the Abe Miller Building.

The recently developed Literacy Outreach Centre is a partnership with Aurora College and offers individualized reading, writing, spelling, and math programs. People with and without disabilities are included in this program. The Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Program is guided by the Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Community Team made up of a variety of community agencies, health professionals, families, and government. The project promotes awareness about the prevention of fetal alcohol syndrome and offers support to families. Workshops have been developed to provide information to schools, families, and the general public.

As you can see, the Yellowknife Association for Community Living is a very much active group within our community and continues to be so through the many dedicated individuals who provide their time and energy to see this group succeed. Mr. Speaker, I ask that my fellow Members join me in recognizing this association and their clients and the many people who volunteer their services to this organization. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this brief opportunity, as this session winds down and as the high temperature debate de-escalates and the even flow of the politics of this House tones down, just to make the observation that we have dealt with some very difficult decisions here, that I think if we look carefully, we all want the same things. We agreed to just about all the goals we are trying to achieve. The heated debate tends to focus on the process of how we get there. As a consensus government, I think that we have managed once again to do the work that is necessary. This is a relatively rare sitting, as far as I am aware, sitting in July. As today is our last day, I would like to take the opportunity to wish all my colleagues a good break. I hope they all get time in their constituencies at home with their families. I would like to, Mr. Speaker, wish you a speedy recovery as well from your injury.

I think we always have to keep in mind that we are all here together for the common purpose and that as we leave here, this is a job that we are doing and it should not negatively affect, hopefully, the relationships and friendships that are here. I wish you all safe trips back home, and I look forward to gathering once again in September to deal with the remaining issues that we have before us as the 13th Assembly. I think that as we all look back, we should be able to take credit on a lot of the good work we have done. Thank you.

--Applause

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mr. Erasmus.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I arise today to speak about the growing crisis caused by the shortage of nurses and doctors. My colleague from Hay River has mentioned or asked questions and made statements a couple of times since we have been here this week. I had wanted to participate in that as well, but I want to make sure I had my other questions asked and statements made first. Mr. Speaker, because of the contracts, the union's pay equity, it is very difficult to change salaries, wages, that type of thing. We can only do that every time a contract expires. Now with pay equity, you raise one of the nurses, you have got to raise so many other different fields as well.

The problem we are having, Mr. Speaker, is to fly doctors and nurses in and out on a part-time basis because of the shortage. We are having inexperienced nurses in the communities, and because of their inexperience and their fears of something happening to the people, I am hearing they are medevacing too many people out. It is causing this type of cost to go out of sight, so something has to be done. We know that the government put $3 million or something into some type of a plan. I cannot remember the length over which this money is supposed to be utilized, but I think we have to go beyond that. There has to be something put into place so that when nurses and doctors are being offered huge incentives down south to go south, we can combat that somehow. Whether we like it or not, money plays a huge, huge factor in where people are going to go to work. It is not only the lifestyle and the rest of that. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

The Speaker

The Member for Yellowknife North is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Do we have any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Erasmus, you have unanimous consent.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, money is a huge factor in where people decide to work. I will just give one example. There was a doctor that concluded her residency here in Yellowknife. She was offered a job. She really liked it. She said she would have liked to stay. However, she had applied in Texas as well, and they offered to pay her student loan of $160,000 if she stayed there for four years. So obviously she did not stay here. She is down in Texas. Those are the types of things we have to deal with. Mr. Speaker, maybe it is time we found a way to deal with these things. Maybe it is time the nurses were not in the overall public service contract, whatever it is called. Thank you.

--Applause

The Speaker

Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Ootes.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 724

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my great pleasure to make reference today to several people joining us in the gallery. First, Ms. Heather McNeill is a copy editor for Alberta Hansard. While she is visiting here in Yellowknife, she decided that she missed her work so much, and she joined Office Compliments to do some more work on Hansard. Heather is joined today in the gallery by Maureen Regel, one of the Northwest Territories Hansard editors, and Sue Yeatman, a Hansard indexer. We wish Heather McNeill all our best during

her holiday stay here. Well, she will not get any rest here. We are very busy here, Mr. Speaker, but we thank her for being interested in us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 725

The Speaker

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Krutko.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 725

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize Mr. Ronald English from Inuvik, who is now living in Yellowknife. Welcome to the Assembly, Ron.

--Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 725

The Speaker

Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to a written question proposed by Mrs. Groenewegen. It is in regard to the update on education funding.

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

On July 28, 1999, the Member for Hay River asked for an update on the possibility of adding $5 million to education programs. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment is currently operating under the budget approved by the Legislative Assembly in May, 1999. The need for additional resources for education is being considered as part of the work to develop the business plans and budgets for 2000-2001. Thank you.

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

The Speaker

Returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Krutko.

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I am seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 6.

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

The Speaker

The Member for Mackenzie Delta is seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 6. Do we have any nays?

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

Some Hon. Members

Nay.

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding
Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

The Speaker

Sorry, Mr. Krutko. You do not have unanimous consent. Reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Mr. Dent.

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive rule 70(5) and have Bill 25, An Act to Amend the Workers' Compensation Act, placed on the orders for consideration in committee of the whole today.

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

The Speaker

The Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake is seeking unanimous consent to waive rule 70(5) to deal with Bill 25. Do we have any nays?

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

Some Hon. Members

Nay.

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

The Speaker

Mr. Dent, you do not have unanimous consent. Reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document entitled, NWT Housing Corporation Annual Report, 1997-98. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. Tabling of documents. Mr. Kakfwi.

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document entitled, A Framework for Community Justice in the Western Arctic, June 1999. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. Tabling of documents. Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a letter from the Tsiigehtchic Charter Community in regard to the deep concerns with the shortage of public housing in their community.

The Speaker

Thank you. Tabling of documents.

The Speaker

In accordance with section 34.1, I wish to table the report of the payment of indemnities, allowances and expenses to Members of the Legislative Assembly for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1999.

The Speaker

Also I have the pleasure of tabling the report and Hansard of the First Youth Parliament of the Northwest Territories, held May 17 to 21, 1999. Tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Mr. Erasmus.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Tuesday, August 3, I will move the following motion:

Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River, that this Legislative Assembly continues to support the resolution of land claims and self-government agreements among all aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories and further requests the Executive Council and the Government of the Northwest Territories to place a high priority on the negotiations and settlement of outstanding land claims.

Mr. Speaker, at the appropriate time today I will be seeking unanimous consent to deal with my motion today. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Notices of motion. Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Tuesday, August 3, I will move the following motion:

Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for North Slave, that the Executive Council be censured for the manner in which it made major changes to the 1999-2000 capital estimates that were moved by the Assembly without the prior involvement and support of the affected Members and standing committees.

The Speaker

Thank you. Notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 16: Motions
Item 16: Motions

Page 726

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to deal with my motion today. Thank you.

Item 16: Motions
Item 16: Motions

Page 726

The Speaker

Thank you. The Member for Yellowknife North is seeking unanimous consent to deal with the motion. Do we have any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Erasmus, you have unanimous consent.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the recent electoral boundary court challenges and the introduction of Bill 15 has created serious rifts among northern peoples;

AND WHEREAS political stability is necessary if the Northwest Territories is to have a healthy society and a positive economic and investment climate;

AND WHEREAS the land claim and self-government negotiation processes have been underway for over twenty years;

AND WHEREAS the support of aboriginal people is needed if the Government of the Northwest Territories is to progress in its efforts toward further devolution, resource development and revenue sharing;

AND WHEREAS the existing uncertainty surrounding land claims and self-government processes is harmful to both aboriginal and non-aboriginal people and to the economic, social and political stability of the Northwest Territories;

NOW THEREFORE, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River, that this Legislative Assembly continues to support the resolution of land claims and self-government agreements among all aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories.

AND FURTHER, requests this Executive Council and the Government of the Northwest Territories to place a high priority on the negotiations and settlement of outstanding land claims.

The Speaker

Thank you. Your motion is in order. Members do not have copies of the motion, so we will take a five-minute break.

-- Break

The Speaker

The House will come back to order. We are on item 16, motions. Motion 26-13(7). Mr. Erasmus, to the motion.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The reason we are making this motion is outlined in the whereas clauses. We believe that these land claims and self-government negotiations have been going on for years and years. They do create political and economic and even social instability by taking so long. People, investors are reluctant to invest in areas where claims are not settled. Even where claims are settled, if the self-government negotiations are still ongoing, there is still a bit of reluctance in those areas as well to invest. It seems that this government while we are placing a priority and we are working hard in the land claims area, we think that there should be a higher priority placed and whatever this government can do to facilitate those claims, I should not say whatever, but we feel the government should work harder to facilitate these claims so that they can go faster. I think a good gesture was done in the past year where more staff was hired so that there could be more people working in the land claims areas. These are the types of things that have to continue. We have to ensure that there are enough people working on the claims so that our government is not holding things up, so that if there is research that needs to be done, if negotiators have to negotiate that there are actually people, enough people dedicated to this so that they do not hold things up.

It is fine for some of the regions I suppose if their land claims are already concluded, but there are some that are not. There is a lot of them. There are the Metis, North Slave Metis, South Slave Metis, Akaitcho Treaty 8, the Dogribs are close, but they are still not finalized, the Deh Cho. There are a lot of groups out there that are still trying to successfully negotiate their land claims and some of them now are moving into self-government and that has been an outstanding sore point as well In the past they have not been able to deal with self-government in the land claims. Now there has been a movement and we feel that it is time that a very high priority be placed on this.

Mr. Speaker, the other issue is that this government needs clarity on the devolution issue and movement on the land claims and self-government issue will help to clarify that. We know that there have been attempts in the past particularly with a Northern Accord, but those have failed and those are largely failed because there are no land claims in some areas or self-government agreements. Those are the main reasons why we are asking for this motion to be passed and that this government place a very high priority on the settlement of land claims and self-government agreements. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. To the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to second this motion. I agree with the comments that my colleague from Yellowknife North has made. Over the last several years as long as I have been serving in this House in many discussions in round tables on constitutional development, we always come back to the question of the unresolved land claims and self-government issues. It makes it very difficult to proceed and build on any progress that we have made because it remains out there. I certainly understand why some of the aboriginal leaders and groups are hesitant to proceed without these issues being resolved. It is a very large unanswered question.

With respect to political accord and Northern Accord, resource accords, it is almost impossible for aboriginal leaders to make sound decisions on behalf of their people without some of these questions being answered. I am very fearful about substantive resource development here in the North that will, due to the lack of progress on claims and self-government, will not deliver the kinds of benefits to Northerners that we want to see. We know that there is tremendous potential here in the North and we are going to see a lot of interest in this potential, but if it is not going to benefit the people of the North, it makes myself very nervous to proceed with it. We do not want to be selling ourselves short, so I think in any way that this government can assist, we know that most of the negotiations and relations are between the federal government and the First Nations, but in any way that this government can aid and facilitate and assist in that process we need to be very mindful of that. Since it will be to the benefit of all Northerners when these issues are resolved. Thank you.

The Speaker

To the motion. Mr. Antoine.

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this motion reinforces that there be a very high priority placed on negotiations and settlement of outstanding land claims. As well, this motion also is reinforcing the agenda for a new Northwest Territories, which this government has been expressing in the North since the new year. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House, I made a Minister's statement in regard to an agreement-in-principle that is going to be initialled by chief negotiators with the Dogribs on August 9, I believe. As well, we have had productive meetings with the committee for the Deh Cho First Nations just the other day. As well, we have had meetings with the Yellowknives and so forth. We continue to do these sort of things. As well, there is the Beaufort Delta negotiations that are going on, so this government has been pursuing these, but this motion urges us on to continue to place a very high priority in this area. With that the Cabinet will be voting in favour of this motion. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too am in full support of this motion. I believe there are lots of issues out there that people might not think are crucial or critical to land claims groups or aboriginal people, but it does put a strain on the relationship between the people in the aboriginal communities, the aboriginal leadership, the chiefs, the band councils, the tribal councils and also people at the national organizations such as Dene Nation. When they have to react to development proposals that come in front of them. Also this government is a key player in land claims and self-government negotiations. You are a player at the table and also, once those claims are settled you are signatories to those land claim agreements. I will use an example in regard to the Gwich'in Land Claim Agreement and the Inuvialuit Agreement. The Government of the Northwest Territories is responsible for Wildlife Act amendments. Those are a very serious component of the land claim agreement. Aboriginal people rely on wildlife and also forestry and other aspects in relation to the land and resources that are out there. This government is responsible for making those amendments to ensure those land claim agreements are enacted.

Another area that we touched on, that I raised, is the Northern Accord process. The problem with land claim agreements is the Northern Accord process was an avenue for the federal government to get out of the responsibility that they had and not agree to resource development agreements with aboriginal people in the land claim agreement itself. What they said is we will put another table over here. You guys can negotiate through the Northern Accord process, that is where you get your resource development benefits. That is where you will be able to know exactly how you are going to be economically able to receive benefits through developments that are going to take place in your settlement region. That component of the Gwich'in Land Claim Agreement and the Sahtu Agreement, even the Inuvialuit, has not been concluded. That is why whenever you talk about development, aboriginal people cannot go to the developer and say, sorry these are all the conditions you have to meet, this is part of the benefit agreement. We negotiate socio-economic agreements on the diamond industry, but over and above that as part of the land claim agreement there are also agreements that have to be fulfilled under the economic side of our land claim agreements.

We talk about negotiated contracts. We talk about economic benefits to aboriginal people. There is an economic section of the land claim agreement which is not clear because it has never been implemented. I strongly support this motion and I would like the, just for the other Members, this does not only pertain to negotiated land claim agreements or self-government agreements. It always pertains to implementing the existing land claim agreements that are there. That is something I do not see in here, but for the record, the people that do have land claims are having problems implementing their land claim agreements right now. I would like to, just for the record, make them aware that this also should relate to that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

To the motion. Mr. Ootes.

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in general I believe this is a good motion, a proper motion and an area that the government does need to concentrate its efforts in. There is no question in my mind that during the Constitutional Working Group meetings a great issue was always one of the unresolved

land claims and self-government issues and in the end that became a stumbling block to proceed.

There is also the additional uncertainty in the minds of industry of organizations that want to do business throughout the Northwest Territories and development. I believe that with the settlement of land claims and self-government issues, we get a lot of that uncertainty out of the way. We get a lot of the uncertainty out of the way when movement starts taking place and interest by governments and aboriginal groups are directed towards that. Mr. Speaker, I feel, and I have spoken on this before, we have tremendous potential here in the Northwest Territories because our resources are incredibly rich, incredibly of a huge, huge magnitude. I think once we get over the hurdles of our governance, then all of that can proceed to the benefit of the people of the Northwest Territories. We do have a great future here in the North. If we can achieve that, Mr. Speaker. It is mind-boggling because our population is small, yet our resources are so gigantic, our potential is so gigantic. Whether it is resources of oil, gas, and minerals, or fishing or forestry, which I spoke about this morning, we have the potential and we need to get on with getting land claims settled and self-government.

Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting the motion. I would like to make a side comment, and that is, on the first statement where it makes reference to Bill 15 "has created serious rifts amongst northern people", those statements have been made repeatedly during this session. I think it is time we move beyond that and get on with more positive statements. I start to believe it is not productive if we keep that style of rhetoric up. The reality is that Bill 15 is getting third reading today presumably and I think once it is passed, yes, there are issues that need to be resolved but to continually harp on the fact that there are rifts amongst communities, rifts amongst northern people, let us please be more positive, a little more upbeat about our potential. I think it is time that we started to do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Rabesca.

James Rabesca North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to support this motion since it is a very important motion that has come forward. I believe that it is a long awaited motion that could have come up from this House a long time ago. However, I am sure that the various organizations throughout the territories and maybe national organizations that must have brought a similar motion to the federal government, but yet nobody seems to act to it. Now certainly it is stronger and is better that it came out from this House and I will assume that most of the organizations throughout the territories might be satisfied with this government if this motion comes forward and is supported as it is. On that note, I would like to support this motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

To the motion. Mr. Erasmus. Conclude debate.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank people who have indicate that they will be voting for this motion and I appreciate the fact that the government agrees that there is a need to place a high priority on the resolution of the outstanding land claims and self-government negotiations. Mr. Speaker, the first whereas indicates that a few things have caused serious rifts amongst the people of the Northwest Territories, and that is just a plain fact, Mr. Speaker. That is what we heard. I am not trying to harp on this. This is not rhetoric. It is just one of the facts. I know Cabinet is trying to make some movement. They have agreed to do certain things to try to get things moving in a proper direction, and I appreciate that as well. With that, Mr. Speaker, I guess we may proceed on voting on the motion. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is passed unanimously.

--Applause.

Motions. Mr Erasmus.

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the four year term of the 13th Legislative Assembly expires on November 16, 1999,

AND WHEREAS it would be desirable to hold the general election earlier than December 31, 1999

AND WHEREAS, under Section 9(3) of the Northwest Territories Act, the Governor in Council, after consultation, may dissolve the Legislative Assembly thus causing a new legislature to be elected.

NOW, THEREFORE, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, that this Legislative Assembly requests that the Government in Council dissolve the 13th Legislative Assembly by October 21, 1999, to permit a general election for the 14th Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories to be held on December 6, 1999. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried unanimously.

--Applause

Motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Tabled Document 31-13(7). Bill 16 and Bill 23. Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 728

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I call committee of the whole to order. We have Tabled Document 31-13(7), Bill 26 and Bill 23. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 728

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to recommend that we commence with Bill 23.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 728

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Is the committee

agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

We will proceed with Bill 23 after a short break. Thank you.

--Break

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I will call the committee back to order. We are on Bill 23. I am going to ask the Minister of Finance, responsible for this bill, to make his opening comments. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, results in a net decrease of $683,922 in approved appropriations. Additional operations and maintenance appropriations of $1,428,965 are offset by a decrease of $2,112,887 in capital appropriations. Due to the net decrease in Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, there will be no negative impact on the government's operating results for the 1999-2000 fiscal year. In addition, approximately $778,000 of the new supplementary requirements will be offset by revenues or other recoveries. With the approval of Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, the total supplementary appropriations approved for the 1999-2000 fiscal year will be $21.7 million.

The major item included in the operations and maintenance supplementary appropriation is $1.2 million for implementation of the final Hay Plan job evaluations for nursing and social worker positions. The supplementary capital appropriation decrease results from a decrease in 1999-2000 capital requirements due to the plan to replace the Yellowknife Correctional Centre over a four year period rather than to renovate and expand the facility over several years at a higher cost. Madam Chairperson, I am now prepared to review the details of the supplementary appropriation document.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. There is no committee review of this. I would like to ask the Minister if he would like to bring witnesses.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Yes, I would.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Is the committee agreed that the Minister should bring witnesses?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. Would the Sergeant-at-Arms please escort the witness in. Mr. Dent, could you please introduce your witness for the record?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. On my right I have the secretary to the Financial Management Board, Mr. Lew Voytilla.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. General comments on the departmental estimates. Are the Members ready to go to the detail of the bill? Would Members please turn in their green binders to Bill 23, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1999-2000, and reference page five. Executive operations and maintenance, Financial Management Board Secretariat, not previously authorized, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Madam Chairperson, I am sorry. What page were you starting on?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I am starting on page five of the detailed portion of the bill. Department of the Executive. Does everyone have it?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. Total department, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry. You did not see my hand up. The indication here is that surplus staff housing units are going to be used for social housing in the communities of Fort Simpson and Norman Wells, five units in Fort Simpson and four units in Norman Wells. Could the Minister indicate if this is part of the yearly housing allocation that goes to communities? Every year communities get a specific allocation of housing units. Normally there are only two or three a year, and every community gets their fair share according to the housing needs survey that is done periodically. I think the last one was done last year. What I am wondering is if these allocations of five social housing units in Fort Simpson and four social housing units in Norman Wells are part of the yearly allocation based on the last housing needs survey that was done. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, actually the government has not allocated any new public housing since 1992. There have been no allocations by community since 1992. This government has not been able to build public housing units. Typically, the new housing that is built in communities is supported by home ownership programs that the Housing Corporation offers, and those are driven by application rather than by allocation. This transfer results from our policy of disposing of staff housing, and in that policy it states that in communities where staff housing is declared to be surplus, if it is not able to be sold, it is to be offered to the Housing Corporation to be used for public housing if needed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am glad to know there is a policy in place to handle this. What does the policy indicate about the fact that these units are going in and about the allocation of units that those particular communities already have? For instance, I am not sure what their allocation was. Say, Fort Simpson is supposed to get five units this year. Are those five social housing units that are going in now additional units in that community? Do these units here take the place of the units that would have gone into those communities? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. No, in fact if these units were not provided to the Housing Corporation to use as social housing, there would have been no social housing units built in those communities. There is no allocation for social housing for any community. Since 1992 this government has not been able to build new social housing units. Rather than having vacant staff housing sit empty in those communities where we have it, this policy which I understand was developed in consultation, with the Standing Committee on Social Programs, dictates they should be transferred to the social housing program. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I am not asking whether the government allocated social housing to the community. What I am asking is, does that community lose its other allocation then? This effectively puts five more units into the community of Fort Simpson, Nahendeh, and four social housing units in the Sahtu community of Norman Wells. Normally you only get a certain amount of units that are allocated according to the housing needs survey, so if you are getting five social housing units plus your normal allocation, then you are getting two or three times what you would normally get. What I am asking is, in Fort Simpson, say, do they get these five units plus their normal allocation? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I do not believe there is any relationship between social housing and home ownership, so there is no tie in terms of allocation. There are no housing units allocated under the Social Housing Policy. As I said, home ownership is supported by the Housing Corporation on an application-driven basis. That would mean that if somebody could make an application to own a home, they would not typically qualify for social housing. So it is two completely separate groups of clients being dealt with here. The two programs are not linked in terms of looking at how many houses might go to a community. As I said, the only other option with these units, since we have not been able to sell them, is to have them sit empty. If there is a need in the community. The policy enables us to put them to good use.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand there are two different groups of clients that have absolutely nothing to do with the total amount of new units that will be in that community through the Housing Corporation. The only other option is not to leave them sit there. The other option is to give them those five units and take away the other units that they would normally get because they should not be receiving more units in one year than what the housing need survey says they are supposed to be allotted. There is a formula that has been adopted, and we should be sticking to that. Why is this community getting those extra units?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I must say, I do not accept the Member's argument that there should be a link between the two. I think that social housing is intended for an entirely different target audience than our home ownership programs. I do not see how we could say to somebody who qualified for home ownership that because we were able to move an existing structure, a structure that sits in the community right now so that rather than having it sit empty, we are providing it to the Housing Corporation to use for social housing. How can we say to a client who qualifies for a home ownership program, sorry, you cannot possibly get into this because we dealt with another program here. There should not necessarily be a link between these two programs. The Housing Corporation was not created to deal with just one client base. It was created to deal with a number of different client bases. All of those client bases have legitimate rights to have their needs dealt with as ably as this government can. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am not disagreeing with the fact that all the various types of clients should have their needs met. What I am disagreeing with is the way these communities are getting an extra four and five units after the fact and not going according to the formula that is supposed to be used. The other thing I wanted to ask about, but I do not think we are going to get anywhere with that, the Minister had indicated that policy was developed with the Social Programs Committee or something to that effect. Could he indicate exactly when the Social Programs Committee reviewed that particular policy and agreed that it was the proper way to proceed? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, could I direct this question to the Minister for the Housing Corporation. I believe he has that information.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This policy was driven by Members of this Assembly and the Social Programs Committee. The exact timing, I could not give the Member, but I know it was probably in the last two years before that because there was a large concern put forward that there were not enough social housing units in communities. Since, as a department, we have not built social housing units since 1992, the demand has been growing. When this government went on to sell the staff housing units, direction at that time was raised in this Assembly that we should be turning them to social housing units. So that policy was put into place and has been put into practice now for, I believe, over a year, because I believe we have seen this before. The units that are in the communities are first put up for sale by this government to the public and interested parties. When that does not happen, then it is given an opportunity for the communities to look at that. When it has been declared surplus by each department, then we turn them over to social housing units. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Erasmus, your ten minutes are up, and I will go to Mr. Krutko. If afterwards, you still have questions, come back. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just following up on the same questions as my colleague, can the Minister tell me exactly how many other units have been transferred to the local housing authorities to be used for social housing?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Since 1996 until the present, there have been a total of 39 units in the Northwest Territories and 20 units in Nunavut. There were six in Edzo, 11 in Fort Rae, 11 in Fort Simpson, three on the Hay River Reserve, and eight in Norman Wells. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I know for a fact in my ridings, especially in Aklavik and Fort MacPherson, there are government units that have not been sold that are still being heated by this government but have not been transferred over. Why is that?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We have a number of housing units, in fact, 30 in the Northwest Territories right now in which sales are pending. They may be closing in the next few months because of conditions that were on the sale of the financing. But if we are unable to sell those units, they will certainly, in the not too distant future, be considered for transfer to the social housing arena.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is there some sort of time-line or deadline on how long these houses are going to be left on the open market, because this program has been there for about two years now? I am just wondering when are those units going to be given to the community. I just tabled a letter today from Tsiigehtchic to the Minister basically saying they are having overcrowding and there is a shortage of housing where people are having to leave the community because they do not have housing for the residents of that community. I would like to ask the Minister exactly when do they intend to allow for all these other surplus housing in the communities which have not been sold to the local housing authority?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We are hoping to have everything wrapped up in this fiscal year. I did leave out one important step when I talked about units that we found we were unable to sell and being transferred into social housing, and that is that if we cannot sell the units, typically the next step is to try and talk the community into taking over the ownership of those units, whether they are occupied or vacant. We would want to take that step first and then if we are unsuccessful with the community taking them on, then we will look at transferring them to social housing. But as I said, Madam Chairperson, our goal is to try and conclude this program by the end of this fiscal year.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is there a possibility that we can get a list that you mentioned there of the different communities and where the allocations took place so that we can see which houses are still left in which communities that have not been sold and ones that have been transferred to the local housing authority, can you make that information available?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We have already provided to Members a summary of staff housing sales and transfers within the Northwest Territories 1996 to 1999. We can certainly provide that again to the Member, and I will find out from him if he has any specific information that is not included on it and endeavour to also provide him with that information.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Can we receive it now so we can have a chance to review it in case we have other questions in that line?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This information was provided to the standing committee subsequent to our appearance in front of that committee with the supplementary appropriation, but I have copies available here if the page could take a copy to the Member right now.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regard to the question about need and where we do have a lack of housing especially in a lot of the smaller communities where there are no more social houses being built, there is a real problem especially with overcrowding and also people not having adequate housing or living conditions where there are people that are raising their children in homes where they still have honey buckets and having to heat it by wood stove and wood. You talk about Fort Simpson and Norman Wells where there is a large real estate market where you are able to sell units. There is also the private sector who is into supplying housing. You also have apartment units available. Who determines whose need is greater than the other's? A community where you have overcrowding or basically a

community that has surplus housing?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I do not think anybody would deny that we have a serious housing shortage in the Northwest Territories and that it has been an ongoing problem. I have been aware of it more so since being a Member of this Legislature. I do not believe that we are getting any closer to solving that problem given our fiscal situation. I understand the Member's concern. We have a policy which determines who is qualified for social housing and then we have a problem with the numbers who qualify and how many houses we have. The situation we have is that as we move to get out of staff housing, we are at the point where we have, in some communities, had houses that would sit empty if we did not move them into a program that would would allow people to qualify for social housing to utilize them. Rather than doing that, this was seen as a way to deal with that problem in those communities where housing was available. There is no question that this is the best situation. We would love to be able to have the money to build social housing in every community, but since we can't, this was felt to be the best solution for these houses. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. That is the other area that you touched on is the question about having housing available for our teachers, our nurses, and our social workers and whatnot that come to our communities. Because of the decision from this government to do away with housing for the nurses and the teachers, that has caused a real impact on the communities, especially now not only dealing with the social housing problem, you are also dealing with the demands of the professional people that come to our communities to serve in our communities.

A lot of these people that come to our communities are not able to find housing and are not able to take on those jobs because of either units that they do find are not adequate for their needs, because you are dealing with renting a housing unit which may have only a wood stove which people are finding themselves in regard to a culture shock going into these communities where they are not used to that lifestyle yet you get in these communities. That is all they have to offer. What is this government doing to ensure that we find a formula or a system to deal with this major problem in our communities not only for the residents but also for the professions that come to our communities?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In many communities, teachers and government employees have bought their own houses. In other communities, the staff housing that we have had has been offered to communities for them to provide to teachers and other professionals that they need in their community. I think we are prepared to deal with the needs as required on a one by one basis. In most communities, I think that people are being adequately housed. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. That ten minutes is up, Mr. Krutko. I have Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In the normal process, and I do not know if it has changed, maybe you will have to call on your Minister of Housing to help you with this, you look at the whole western Arctic, you have a pot of money in your Housing Corporation to meet housing needs in the community. If you renovate a public housing unit and bring it up to standard, you have met one housing need. If you allocate a housing program no matter which one it is, you meet a need. When you have your budgets, when we pass the budgets, we never can meet all the needs because there is not enough money, we all know that. Normally, I think we can meet about ten percent of the actual need, that is what you have. If a community needs ten units, they get one, for example. One housing need is met. Whether there is a whole variety of housing programs to meet different peoples needs. Ultimately, the allocation, the Housing Corporation has a very fair system of allocating units. It is driven by a needs study every three years. The only place that is treated differently that I understand is Yellowknife because of the private markets and all those things. All the other communities are treated the same, fairly.

When your staff housing selling policy says you offer it for sale to the person living in it, the government employee, if they choose not to buy it, then you put it out on the market. If the market does not purchase it then you turn it over to the Housing Corporation for public housing. That is a good policy as well. The problem is in this case you have Norman Wells and Fort Simpson, they are getting extra housing for public housing needs in that community without giving up some of that other stuff. Whatever the units are, say five, they are getting five extra housing needs met, more than any other community is. There is nothing wrong with the policy, nothing wrong with the way the Housing Corporation give out their units except for the two do not ever talk to each other to see if it is still fair, when you put the two they are seen separate. When in reality you are still meeting a public housing need. There is where the problem lies. Maybe things have changed, I do not know.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I understand it since 1992 there has been no allocation under public housing. There has never been a situation where an allocation of public housing would affect EDAP or IHP programs. Those are driven by applications from people who meet certain conditions and can support the ownership of the house after they are in it. It is my understanding that, in fact, there has not been that kind of shift since 1992 so I do not think this is a recent change, if there is a change. However I stand to be corrected by the Minister of Housing if I have misstated that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It does not matter what the program is. I know there has been no allocation of public housing units, perse new buildings. Everybody knows

that because there is no new money. You have negotiated with CMHC on a block funding arrangement over a certain many years and the federal government is out of public housing and I know there is no new money to build public housing, but there are all those other programs and they have capital money in the budget in the Housing Corporation. Now the way they are allocating their dollars is based on need. It is a fair, fair system. Any given community, for example, in Lutselk'e, they get a certain amount of needs met per year and it is fair, the same as Fort Good Hope would or anybody else. When you throw into the mix because certain staff housing did not sell in a given community, all of a sudden they are getting five extra needs met, because ultimately that is what you do when you turn it over, hand the operations and maintenance over to the Housing Corporation. That is five extra units in their stock. If they are carrying 50 public housing units all of a sudden they are carrying 55 public housing units, so they get five extra needs met. There should be an exit of five other programs out of that same community and reallocated to make it fair. That is my simple understanding of allocating housing whether it is public housing, EDAP or whatever program you have or the selling off of staff housing to the Housing Corporation. Maybe I do not have it right, maybe somebody can clarify that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, my understanding is that the Housing Corporation does not remove funding for EDAP or the Independent Housing Program in the case where houses are allocated to social housing through the Staff Housing Policy. Perhaps we should ask the Minister of Housing to provide some clarification on that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. At the present time the Housing Corporation does not remove other program funding or EDAP funding from communities based on transfer of social housing units. Each region has been allocated funding to run the programs they have, whether it is transfers to LHOs and so on, but the EDAP program as well. Then from there it is broken down roughly on a community basis as applications come in, but the districts have a fair bit of flexibility depending on where most applications are being generated from. Right now, as the program exists, there is no reduction in the EDAP program for any region based on the housing transfers. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you. Then those communities that do not sell off there staff housing, they get that extra little boost of housing into their public unit. I also know and maybe yourself or the Minister of Housing can clarify this, is that there was a fairly concise decision made to encourage home ownership and home ownership has been the biggest priority of the Housing Corporation. Before their portfolio used to be made up of the majority of building up public housing unit stock, building new public housing units. That switched to home ownership.

If these houses cannot be sold on the market and probably because of the appraisal value they are only allowed to sell for 10 percent less than that is the policy. When they are transferred to the Housing Corporation those would be good units to put back into the home ownership program where they could be reduced in price and renovated and then put out to the market for home ownership instead of carrying them on your public housing stock we have to carry them forever, for the next 35 years you have to carry them at that price that you have in the budget every year. Ultimately you would encourage home ownership and you would not need the operations and maintenance money that you are asking to transfer because they would not need it then. Because you would need only the capital money to renovate them to make them livable so home ownership clients can purchase them through the EDAP program or whatever.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Comments, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand what the Member is saying, but, I would come back to what I said earlier in response to Mr. Erasmus and that is that is it fair to tie the groups together? In the case of a 25 year old house, it is going to be difficult to find somebody who can afford to operate it. That would be my first thought. There is a need for social housing and if we have some units that we can turn over to it, we should. I know it may not seem fair that we cannot do it in every community, but if we have some available it would seem prudent to do that. In terms of the overall policy question, I would have to defer that to the Minister for the Housing Corporation.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The whole area as I stated earlier once again initially when this government started to sell staff housing units, there was much concern raised by Members in this Assembly as well as in the Social Programs Committee that we should be trying to use some of these units for staff housing units, so the policy was developed in that range. Just a little further on the EDAP program, as a Housing Corporation, we are feeling that we have come close to totally utilizing the portion of the population that could fall into that EDAP program. The Housing Corporation is already sort of looking at what is out there. We need to do that along with another survey that is being done this year. There are some ongoing things but it was through this government that the policy was set up and we have been following for a number of years now.

I think if there are concerns that this is not working properly that we need to address that and try to come up with some program that is fair, but at the same time when we have residents in whatever community that they might come out of that can afford the EDAP program and have their own home, we know as a government that it is better to have people in their own homes then in public housing units, so that is why the big push was on. As I stated earlier, where we have come to a position, or very close to it, that the people with higher incomes and social housing units have gone on to purchase their own homes, so we are coming to that stage where we have to relook at that program. That has not been undertaken as of yet, but we are considering what we have to do in the future. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I have Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. First of all, this page here does not really tell us too much. It talks about regions. It does not say a word about any communities, unless there is something on the back. The list that the Minister had read out indicated the exact communities in which units had been transferred. Perhaps he could read it out so we can write it down if he cannot give it out.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing I wanted to know. For these units, five units to Fort Simpson and four units to Norman Wells, are there additional operations and maintenance dollars transferred to operate those units, or does the housing authority have to use their current dollars to operate those units? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The department making the transfer, which is FMBS, provides the money that it normally would spend on maintenance and outgoing expenses of these facilities, and then it is topped up through this supplementary to ensure that they have adequate funds to provide them.

If I can go back to the Member's first question, I have asked that copies be made of the detail that I read out earlier in the House. I would note that what I have with me refers only to social housing, but if there is any other information Members require, I will endeavour to provide it.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I think I will wait to get the other information before we ask for clarification. What the Minister is saying, then, is that in some lucky communities that have a bunch of overpriced staff housing that they cannot sell, communities with no housing market and no hope of reselling a house if you buy it an overinflated price, if you happen to be lucky enough to live in that community, you can increase your amount of units plus your budget through the back door periodically. Is that what I am hearing?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I guess I have more confidence in the licenced appraisers who say that we are in fact getting a true reflection of the value of the property, that if we offer it for ten percent below the appraised value, that is in fact a fair price. That does not mean that there will always be a buyer for a house in a community, even if it is being offered at below that fair price.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I happen to know that there are several units sitting in Fort Rae empty, and one is valued at $160,000, I believe. If it was selling in Yellowknife, you probably could not get $50,000 for it. I would like to know, how do these people arrive at their prices? How do they come up with their prices?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would have to ask the Member to provide us with the specifics of the units of which he speaks. We could then provide him that detailed information. Typically an appraiser will use a combination of factors, the replacement cost or a market assessment, and there may be other factors as well. I would have to know the specific unit, and then I could endeavour to provide the Member with the mechanism or the methodology by which the value is set.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this page there have been 11 units already transferred to Fort Simpson plus another five coming up. Is that correct?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, no, the units transferred to the Housing Corporation April, 1996, to the present include those that we are discussing today.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can we have an indication of when these other ones were transferred, in Norman Wells and Fort Simpson?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, we do not have the exact dates for the previous transfers with us in the House. We would be happy to provide that information in writing to the Member forthwith.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, how does the government determine how long these units should stay out there for sale? It is saying that some of these have been transferred since 1996. Why were some transferred right away and there are still some that have not been sold and have not been transferred yet?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It could be that we have had expressions of interest in some houses from individuals. We feel that there may be a chance to sell them. If we can sell a house rather than transferring it and not getting the revenue, we will try and do that for as long as we think is reasonably possible. There could be land issues that have to be solved before the unit could be sold. There may be offers pending, as I said. We have offers pending on 30 units right now

in the Northwest Territories. There are a number of reasons why things do not happen at the same speed in all communities. Again, without referring to a specific unit, it would be difficult for me to answer why one had sold and one had not.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From this page that I have here, I cannot tell which communities still have units outstanding. I would like to have a list of that. The other thing I would like to know is, how does this government propose to rectify the unfair allotment of units that has occurred, so that all the communities can get a similar amount of allotted units, like the 11 to Fort Simpson and the eight to Norman Wells.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the Member's first question, I do not have the information about the location of the remaining staff housing units with me, but we will certainly provide that very quickly to the Members. On the second question, I do not think that the government agrees that it has been an unfair allocation. I would have to wait for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation to bring forward a paper to address that if he felt that this was unfair. As I said in an earlier answer to the Member, Mr. Chairman, I am not convinced that it is proper to tie together allocations for social housing and for home ownership. It is two different groups that typically qualify for those programs.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

We are discussing Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, under executive operation and maintenance. Your directorate is -$42,000.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is only so much money in the Housing Corporation's budget to meet the housing need of the community. In community A you have staff houses out on the market that cannot sell. In community B you have staff housing out on the market that cannot sell. In both cases they transfer the staff housing to the Housing Corporation. In community A they renovate that housing with their housing program dollars and sell it to the homeowner who can afford to pay $32 a month plus operations and maintenance. Their public housing need stays the same. The list stays the same. That is what their allocation was based on, a combination of their public housing need and the housing need survey. In community B they allocated to the housing authority, and they keep it for public housing stock. They do not have to spend any of their program money to renovate it or meet a need. It increases the needs that are met. I agree with your Staff Housing Policy. It is a good policy to get rid of them. I agree with how you allocate units. It is fair. It has always been fair.

When you look at them both and you combine them, then all of a sudden it becomes unfair. One is from FMBS and one is from the Housing Corporation, but when you combine the two, you are meeting extra needs in the community on your social housing programs. All of them are social housing programs. Whether it is a public house, EDAP, down payment assistance or whatever program it is, they are there. That has happened. I know it. When our government goes to sell those units, the price is at one price. It is from their appraiser plus ten percent below, and that is the price they pay. When they cannot sell it then, they turn it over to the Housing Corporation, and they can meet the community's need by renovating it to bring it up to standards because it is 20-some years old, so that it is energy efficient and people can afford to run. They use their money that is allocated to that community to meet housing needs, because they have met a housing need by renovating that unit. Then they give it to the client on that program where they go to the bank and get so much and make payments of only what they can afford. That is how it is met, and that is all Housing Corporation money.

You see how the two policies should work hand in hand. They are both good policies, but they should work hand in hand to ensure that no community gets extra social housing needs met where other communities are not given equal access or fair access to that same thing. Do you understand the concern, Mr. Minister?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I have heard the comments of Members today, I believe that as this is presented to you, it does follow our existing policy. I will commit to Members to discuss with the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation whether or not we need to review our policies. That is my commitment today, to follow up on this issue with the Minister, discuss how FMBS policies in terms of transfer of units to communities or to the Housing Corporation may be looked at in light of other Housing Corporation policies. We will take another look at that, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members do not have recourse or much recourse when it comes to the system we work in. The only thing that Members are allowed to do is recommend and delete from the budgets, if they can carry a motion. Hearing what the Minister said, I think he truly understands what the concern is, and he is taking action. He is going to do something about it. When Mr. Roland spoke just recently, what Mr. Roland said was that they are doing a new housing needs survey this year. This may create an imbalance at this present time of how housing units are allocated, and it may have created an imbalance before. I do not know. The government is moving to rectify it, because Mr. Roland, through the Housing Corporation, is doing a new needs survey, so these houses will be dispatched in those communities and they will be taken into consideration during the needs survey. That is how it is going to happen so I have no problem with it. The other thing the two of you should address is how those two policies should work together, that is it, and you have committed to that so it is straightforward. I thank them.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

I accept the compliment.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

We are dealing with Supplementary Appropriations Act, No. 2, executive operation and maintenance, total department, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 735

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The proposal to

look at future allotments and a needs survey works for the future, but it does not consider the fact that there have been a small number of communities that have received a large amount of units. Thirty-nine units in total that the vast majority of the other communities in the North have not been able to receive. I would like to ask the appropriate Ministers if they would take that into consideration when they are looking at their new policy because effectively after this is done, Norman Wells, for instance, will have received eight extra units. Fort Simpson will have received 11, Fort Rae will have received 11, Edzo will have received six. Normally those allotments you do not get that many units except over the course of two to three years sometimes. These units have to be taken into consideration in future allotments. I would ask the Ministers to also consider that. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have listened here with an intent as to the concerns raised by Members in regard to this and the reference of comparisons between EDAP or Independent Housing Program to the sale of staff housing units. I mentioned earlier that the Housing Corporation is doing a needs survey. Any of these units that go into a community will be taken in and that need will be seen to as being addressed, so it will lower their needs, so it will automatically change the forecasting that would come out of it.

As we have said earlier, there have been no new social housing units built since the federal government removed its funding from our hands. We have tried to focus on putting people into their own homes since then and since it was direction from this government, all Members, on trying to meet some of the social housing needs, this has been the approach adopted. As I said earlier, when we do the housing survey, it will be completed before the end of this calendar year, I believe, it will impact on the future forecast because as they go through those communities that have received these housing transfers into social housing units their need will have seemed to be met or at least decreased from the previous time it was out which was 1996. It will have that impact. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Roland. At this time I would like to recognize Mr. Gary Bohnet, President of the Metis Nation. Welcome, Mr. Bohnet. Total department, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I still have about six minutes here. Mr. Chairman, I agree that the new housing survey will partially address this unequal allotment of units. However, because communities do not receive their total allotment of their needs, it is only based on a percentage, it does not totally address it because five units to Norman Wells or Fort Simpson this year, might be their total allotment. Their total allotment, but if you only take five units out of their total needs that is not the same thing because you are lowering their needs by five units but say if you only get ten percent of your total needs every year, by lowering your needs by five units it might not even knock one unit out of their allotment for next year. If you say if your receive ten units last year when you are only supposed to get five, next year you could have absolutely nothing. That is the way it should be addressed, or you lose a certain amount for a certain amount of years until you make up those five extra units that you have.

Communities, for instance like Dettah, they have absolutely no staff housing units. Are they going to get extra units allotted to them for that? Because they have had no opportunity to be given 11 social housing units like Fort Simpson or Fort Rae, or eight units like Norman Wells.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I stated earlier that giving staff housing to communities whether it is to provide housing to teachers or others in the community or if it is being turned into social housing is not a fair allocation. I agree there has not been fairness there. The alternative was to let them sit empty. I have made a commitment to discuss with the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. How our policies should be looked at and how they might work together. The Minister for the Housing Corporation has said that a housing needs survey is underway. We will take a look at our policies, take a look at the needs survey and then try and determine the best way to make sure that this government meets the housing needs of its citizens as best we can. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand what the Minister is saying, but looking at a housing survey and how things are done in the future should also include the fact that these communities have received these extra units. That is all I am asking for, that the allotments in the future take into consideration that these communities have these extra social housing units and somehow ensure that the rest of the communities in the Northwest Territories are able to either access similar amounts or to rectify it in some other way so that they do not receive an unfair amount of housing units. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Member is providing us with advice on how he thinks we should proceed. We will take that advice into account as we discuss our future policy directions.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department. -$42,000. Agreed? Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, do we have a quorum?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus, are you asking us to recognize a quorum? The Chair recognizes a quorum. Total department, -$42,000. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

We are on page 6 of Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, Municipal and Community Affairs, operations and maintenance. Regional operations not previously authorized, $148,000. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 736

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Emergency services, $152,600. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, $4,600. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Page 7, Public Works and Services, operations and maintenance, asset management not previously authorized, $148,000. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, $148,000. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Page 8, Health and Social Services, operations and maintenance, director of corporate services, $1.248 million. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we all know that we have a crisis surrounding the shortage of doctors and nurses in the Northwest Territories. It is costing a lot of money to bring people in on a short term basis. We have to fly them in and out and also I understand that because of the nurses' inexperience in the communities, some of the nurses are medevacing people out when normally they would not be because they are afraid that something might happen, understandably so, that they do not want people to be harmed unnecessarily. Mr. Chairman, what I would like to know is there had been a position advertised for the director of human resources and board support for the Department of Health and Social Services, and apparently this has been cancelled. I am sure that this director of human resources and board support would have done a great job in implementing the final Hay Plan job evaluations and everything else. I would like to know why this position has been cancelled? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I doubt that position would have been involved at all in this job evaluation adjustment that we are talking about today. But in terms of specific positions, I cannot answer that question, so I will have to defer to the Minister of Health and Social Services.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That position was changed, not cancelled. Some of the roles of the initial position that went out were altered before the job was completed through the evaluation and before taking anybody on. There have been a number of changes within the department so that the role has changed, but there is a new position going out for competition that has been changed in response to the changes that were made previously. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This position was put out a couple of times and taken back a couple of times. It was advertised and put out for people to apply to a couple of times already. Is this going to be the last time, and is this position still going to be in existence?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Member was requesting the Minister of Health and Social Services to answer this question.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The position, as I stated earlier, will be going out to competition not in the same manner as it did previously, but it has nothing to do with the Hay Plan evaluations that were done on the adjustments. If the Member wanted to discuss this at a later time, I would gladly provide him with all the information that is available to me. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that having a director of human resources is a very, very important position having to do in the area of nursing and social work. What I would like to know, is there still going to be a director?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus, like the Minister indicated, this is outside the scope of this particular matter at hand. We are dealing with the Hay Plan job evaluation for nurses, and that is the $1.248 million. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Minister had already answered a question in relation to this particular position. He indicated that it is going to be going back out. Since he already answered the question, I just want clarification of what position is going to be going out.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clarification, Minister of Health and Social Services.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I stated earlier, there has been some alteration in the actual job itself, but I would have to get more information from my department. As I said earlier in my previous response, I would gladly sit down with the Member and go over this and provide the information that I have available. We could try and do that later on today, if that is possible. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you. We are dealing with the Department of Health and Social Services, operations and maintenance, director of corporate services, $1.248 million. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 737

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could indicate how the Hay Plan job evaluation for nurses and social work positions are actually done because I understand that nurses are complaining that they are not being treated as professionals, and we cannot continue to lose nurses the way we are particularly when people are getting equal salaries to what we are offering here, people's salaries and benefits down south. How are these job evaluations being done?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the job evaluation is conducted by a committee within each department, led by a facilitator. Members of the committees are trained in the Hay job evaluation method. The departments are working towards establishing committed membership in order to ensure gender parity and that members are knowledgeable about a large number of jobs and functions within the department at headquarters and regional levels. These committees have been working since December, 1997, to evaluate all UNW and excluded jobs.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I had indicated in my statement today, I think that this process is tying us down too much. What would have to happen to get the nurses out of this Hay Plan business and the unions and all the rest of that, get them out of this process so that we can respond quickly, if we have to, in order to attract nurses back into the Northwest Territories? We cannot continue to afford to bring nurses in temporarily from down south and fly them back and forth and then have them medevacing people left and right, increasing our travel costs?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One way would be that if there was a clear indication that nurses felt that they wanted to see this change and health boards agreed with it, we could move to make nurses employees of the health boards, in which case they would fall under the Canada Labour Code.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Director of corporate services, $1.248 million. Mr. Erasmus, your time is up, but I will allow you more questions.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of more questions. I did not quite hear what the Minister had indicated. Do the nurses themselves have to apply or whatever to become employees of the health boards?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This could be done on the initiation of the government as an amendment to the Public Service Act, but my comments indicated that I do not believe that the government would be prepared to act without there being a significant amount of consultation, direction and interest being expressed in seeing that change made.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

The first step, there would have to be an expression of interest from the nurses? Is that correct?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, but there would also have to be the policy consideration by the boards themselves. We have nine health boards that would have to agree to take on the responsibility of being the employer, which currently they are not. It is the Government of the Northwest Territories that is the employer.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Would this have be all of the health boards? Would they all have to agree to this or could one specific board and their nurses do this? For instance, could the Stanton Hospital here do that alone if the nurses and the board desire to do something?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I cannot answer the question. There would have to be some considerable policy considerations by this government in terms of whether or not we could look at a piecemeal approach or whether we would have to see it done on a blanket across-the-board basis. Without there being some consideration of that, I cannot really say how we might look at it.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. There would have to be policy considerations and there would have to be representation from the nurses, as well as the boards. Would one option be that the nurses have their own union separate and work for the boards?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, that change would require a legislative change. It does not mean that it could not happen, but again it would be a situation where we would have to take a look at the policy considerations and make a decision as to whether or not we were prepared to proceed in that way.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would just like to thank the Minister for his forthright replies. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Health and Social Services, total department, not previously authorized, $1.248 million. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 738

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Next page, NWT Housing Corporation, operations and maintenance, NWT

Housing Corporation, not previously authorized, $70,365. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Could I ask for clarification? How long is this money for? How long a period is it to be used over? Is it eight months, a whole year, how long?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The $42,000 is based on the value of the units. The $28,000 is prorated. Some of the units were transferred at the beginning of the year and some not until August. That amount, next year, will be increased. We are projecting a target change in the next year of $33,528 as opposed to the $28,365, which is prorated this year. The interdepartmental transfer is also prorated this year of $42,000. That will be rising to $52,000 for next year.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am not exactly sure how much this works out to for each of the two communities, but is it possible for Dettah and N'dilo to receive equal increases in their budget to their housing authority?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The $42,000 this year and the $52,400 next year are monies that this government expends right now on those houses. That is not a situation where there are additional monies being provided. In terms of the $28,000, which rises to $33,000 next year, that is supplementary. This will all have to be tied to the discussion that I am going to have with Minister Roland about our policies and how the policies of the two departments work together.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am aware that this is money that is currently being spent, but it is also increasing the budgets of those two respective communities. That is why I want to know if the communities in my constituency will also be lucky enough to get a comparable increase to their budgets.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I said, the situation is one in which we do not have a lot of money to spare, but we will certainly consider the Member's arguments when Minister Roland and I have our discussion about how our policies can work together when it comes to housing.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Madam Chairperson, I would like to make a motion to extend hours at least long enough to conclude consideration of the bill. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. The motion is in order. The motion is not debatable. Question has been called. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed to the motion? The motion is carried. Thank you. The committee has before it operations and maintenance, not previously authorized, $70,365. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. Department of the Executive, capital, directorate, not previously authorized, $625,000. Agreed? Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is the $625,000 in any way tied to those nine units, four going into Norman Wells and five going into Fort Simpson?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. No, there is no connection between them.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Could the Minister indicate what it is for then?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In the smaller communities in the Northwest Territories, the government will purchase back a property from an employee who is transferred or who is leaving the employ of the government and moving from the community if the employee is unable to sell the house. The purchase price is ten percent below appraised value. The government, after purchasing the house, then puts the house on the market at appraised value. Typically, Madam Chairperson, we have recovered all of the costs in this program. At present none of this money has been spent. This money is in the budget in case it is needed in a smaller community. It is based on the estimate that we may need to purchase some housing units throughout the course of this fiscal year.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. What happens if these units are not sold?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We would have to take a look at that situation if it arises. To date it has not been a problem.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 739

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Madam Chairperson, what I am interested in is, does it follow the same policy as the other units? Does it go into social housing?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. That other policy is pursuant to staff housing, so I am not certain that technically this would fit into it. Since we have not run into the problem before, I do not know that there has been an examination of whether or not it would. It could be something that we could consider, whether or not units that we were unable to sell would also fall under that policy. Our Staff Housing Policy applies to housing units where we have been providing housing for employees. In this situation we are buying housing from an employee who had their own house. I am not sure that would really qualify as staff housing. We would have to have a look at it. I do not think that it is clearly set out in our policy. It has not been a problem.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The rationale, as I understand it, to turn the staff housing into social housing is that there is no sense in leaving government houses empty. If you cannot sell these, presumably the same rationale exists. You do not want to sit there paying for these units if they are empty, so we are going to have to do something with them. I am asking, will they go under the same policy?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I said, if we wind up in a situation where we have to consider that, I think we would likely consider these houses as fitting under that policy. It would be something that I would have to examine as to what our Staff Housing Policy says now and ensure that it does in fact apply to these properties should that eventuality ever come to pass.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Executive capital directorate, not previously authorized, $625,000. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Can the Minister tell us exactly where these units are located, in which communities?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. There are no properties. This money is in the budget if the situation arises. This program only applies in the smaller communities. The government has agreed with its employees that if in a certain period of time they are unable to sell their properties, the government will purchase them at ten percent below the appraised value. What we are doing here is we have estimated what we think the potential uptake might be in the course of this fiscal year and are putting money in the budget so that if that situation arises, we can follow through on the policy which we have made available to our employees.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Can the Minister tell me if there have been any employee housing units purchased and exactly where those purchases have taken place?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. None of the $625,000 has been spent this year. The government has not purchased any houses under this policy this year. There were some that were purchased last year, and that information, the locations of those units, was provided to the standing committee.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

In regard to these units that have been purchased in the past, has the government been stuck with these units and not able to sell them at this time?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We do not believe that we are stuck with any of them. There may be one or two that have not sold yet, but we are confident they will sell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Department of the Executive, capital, total department, not previously authorized, $625,000. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. The Department of Justice, capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,730,887. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regard to the specific project, in the budget in regard the main estimates, there was $4 million allocated for a retrofit of the existing facilities. I would like to know why has there been a change in this project without it being approved by the Members of this House.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, Cabinet and FMB were presented with the option of spending significantly more money to renovate the correctional centre or saving approximately $5 million by doing the project over approximately four years instead of seven and building new. The decision was to make that change and save the taxpayer some money.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I believe the other two projects that we were looking at, were talking about realizing that we were in a financial crunch when it comes to capital projects. One of the initiative

we were looking at was a P3 process to look at some of these projects. But in the case of this project, it was going to be a retrofit of $4 million spread out over a period of time of $24 million, but for myself, I support the initiative of renovating the existing facility and also realizing that we are limited on the amount of capital projects we would like to see in the Northwest Territories. But for us to put all our eggs in one basket, I do not find that being fair to the other regions or communities in the new Western Territory.

We sit here, we talk about community justice and also trying to get communities more involved in the justice systems in our communities and trying to deal with those problems at home. But I believe that the amount of money that is going to be spent here, all we are doing is basically entrenching the concept that there will be a trend that is starting to institutionalize people instead of trying to help them and deal with their problems in the communities and also deal with the problems with the families and finding new mechanisms. There was a report in the past where it talked about on the land programs to get people housed in facilities.

There were two areas located, one was in my riding of MacKenzie Delta and Aklavik. There was supposedly $500,000 that was going to be put into that project, which was $50,000 put into planning, and that was the end of it. We talk about trying to find new ways and new methods of dealing with our problems. I believe we have to put more emphasis in the area of prevention than basically institutionalizing people. I would like to ask the Minister, is that opportunity still going to be available to other regions and other constituencies to consider those community correction programs to look at on the land programs to house people in camps and whatnot than have them put in all this facility?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It would be difficult to argue with the issue of prevention being better than trying to cure the problem of incarceration or the problems that cause incarceration. I certainly agree that prevention is one of the best ways to approach some of our society's problems. Unfortunately, we have a situation where we have to deal with a certain number of people right now. The facilities that are provided for those people are unacceptable. We have been told by people ranging from those involved with the Evans Report to the fire marshal that we have to deal with concerns. I am sure the Member would not want us to leave people in the sort of situation in which they are. I would certainly hope that we could still continue to see an expansion of on-the-land programs. From what I have seen personally, I think they tend to be extremely successful. It does not however take away from the fact that we are still going to have a certain number of people who will not qualify for those programs and are going to have to house.

In this situation, the initial budget that was presented to the standing committee in this House was fairly imprecise that time. The $28.3 million was the estimate we had. As I understand it, sometime after the budget planning process, after going to committees, and after the budget books had been prepared, Ferguson Simek Clark came back and said, in fact, to build this over seven years is going to cost you $35 million. Conversely, you can build this project with the same scope of the project as originally proposed, $5 million less. In other words, $30 million rather than $35 million if you built it over four years instead of seven years. We were presented with the opportunity to either save $5 million over what the cost was going to be to achieve the same functional program, as presented to committee and to this House, or spend $5 million more to do the same thing.

It would have been irresponsible of us not to commit to the saving of this money. I would hope that this saving would allow us to put monies into other programs. Far better to put the $5 million into other areas than into a building that holds people in jail.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just looking at the Main Estimates, the total cost of the project was supposed to be $28.330 million. Now you are telling us it is $30-something million, and that is why I had no problem supporting this idea of renovating the project. Also, in your handbook you mentioned that the government is committed to improving the quality of a correction facility, planning a much needed renovation to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre will begin this year. That is in your own words, Mr. Minister. I do not know what happened in the last four months for the estimate to jump from $28 million to $30-some million. This was based on what we approved in this House in regards to the Main Estimates in which it clearly stated that there was going to be $4 million spent this year. Now, the change has taken place. That number has increased drastically. Also, it changed the scope of the project. It is now a new project. Personally, I do not believe that you are being fair in regards to what is being said here but also what is documented on how we came up with the decision of funding a renovation to this facility. When have these changes in numbers taken place, and why is it such a drastic change?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. When the cost was presented to committee, it was thought, at that time, that the project could be accomplished for around $28.3 million. As the plans developed further the cost changed. This is not uncommon, as the Member will know from past projects, whether schools or other projects, when the design work gets further along, the costs increase or you find other problems that you have to address. This magnitude of change on a $28 million project is not unusual at all. As the calibre of the estimates and the planning got further along, it became apparent that it was going to cost significantly more to rebuild YCC rather than replacing it with a new facility. As I said, the estimate went from $28.3 to $35 million. It was at that point that the consultant came back to us and advised we could do the same thing if we were prepared to build it over four years instead of seven. You can build a new facility for $5 million less than what you can renovate this facility for and provide the same functional program. As I say, you are irresponsible not to consider that savings of $5 million.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you Mr. Minister. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Who is the Minister

responsible for this project?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

The Minister responsible would be Mr. Kakfwi, the Minister of Justice.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

When you change the scope of work of a project, does it go to FMBS? Is that where it goes for a change?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The decision to change was made by FMB. Mr. Morin is using the term scope of a project. In the early capital planning stage, the functional program was considered the scope of the project. I want to make sure that we are both using the word scope in the same way because if we are going to talk about changing the scope of the project, did we change the functional program, the answer is no. Did we change it from renovation to a reconstruction, yes. Have we done that many times, yes.

Tsiigehtchic School project in your constituency, Mr. Chairman, was changed from renovation to new construction. We did not, at FMB, consider that a change in scope. We changed the Inuvik maintenance garage from renovation to new construction. We changed the Aurora Campus in Inuvik from relocation and refit of Grollier Hall to new construction. All of these changes were based on information coming forward that proved to us that we could accomplish the same functional program in a more economic way for the taxpayers. Those are not all new and recent changes. Some are changes that were considered before I got into this position.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so we are thinking the same and using the same words, maybe the Minister can help me. Is there any difference between the word renovation and the word new? Is there a difference, just so I understand?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not think anyone can disagree that there is a difference in those two words. However, what we are talking about here is a functional program, and governments make changes and approaches to how projects are undertaken all the time. This government has done it many times over the four years that I have been on Cabinet and has not considered it a change in the scope of the program.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you. What Minister is responsible to consult on this change with the appropriate committee and MLAs?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. According to the Financial Administration Manual, directive 302, the Minister responsible is the Minister for the department. In this case, because of the timing change, I expect that according to that directive, consultation was required with the standing committee. There is no question the consultation or advice to the committee could have happened more quickly than it did. I know that and have acknowledged that in a letter to the standing committee following my appearance there. Minister Kakfwi has apologized in this House for not having made the notification more quickly, as has the Premier. There is an agreement on Cabinet that we could have followed the Financial Administration Manual Directive more carefully and quickly. The decision was made on June 4 , and the committee was not notified until July 14. There is no question that notification should have happened sooner. I have to take some personal responsibility for that delay. I have apologized. This house has the apologies of three Ministers for the delay. It should have been done much quicker.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is also, I believe, a difference between the word notifying and the word consultation. I believe there is different meanings to those two things. Even in your own government you have a process of changing capital projects and I know that this government and this 13th Legislative Assembly has already put a motion of censure in the government for not following the proper process. According to your process no new capital projects over $250,000 are to be established until the responsible Minister, that would have been Mr. Kakfwi, has consulted in writing with the affected MLAs and appropriate standing committee. If the standing committee or MLAs do not support the proposed project, the responsible Minister, that is Mr. Kakfwi again, should advise the chairman, yourself, of FMB in writing if he/she intends to proceed with the project. The requirement for consultation will be waived if the new project is necessary due to an emergency. I never ever heard of this project being an emergency, in which case notice will be provided as described in "b" below when a department proposes to delete a capital project of significant concern to a community, the appropriate standing committee and affected MLAs will be advised. Those are the consultation guidelines. That is one part of them. There was never any consultation taking place with the standing committee that is responsible for this as well as MLAs, because it affects all MLAs, not just Yellowknife MLAs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to move a motion.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

I move that this committee recommends that the Executive Council take immediate steps to terminate its planning and implementation process for the adjusted design and construction phases for the replacement of the Yellowknife Correctional Facility and the collocated Young Offenders Facility and further that the Executive Council initiate correctional facilities planning in consultation with the appropriate standing committee and Members of the Legislative Assembly.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Morin. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason I put this

motion on the floor is to help the government. The government has already said through the Premier, through the Minister responsible and through the Minister of Finance, that they did not follow the proper process to move the Yellowknife Correctional Centre renovation to a combined new facility. What this motion does and they have written to us and apologized and I thank them for that, but what this motion does, Mr. Chairman, it enables the government to do the proper consultation through the proper standing committees and MLAs and again come and move ahead so all the concerns that Members have raised about this facility should be addressed. It enables the government to follow their own guidelines, their own processes, that is all it does. This capital project is not an emergency, so all this motion does is it allows the government to follow a process that we all agreed on we would do. Once again, we are trying to help the government to follow the proper process. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have not been in this House nearly as long as the honourable Member posing this motion. I have, however, been here long enough to have heard him speak of capital projects that are not necessarily kept the same throughout the life of their conception and completion in this government. I disagree and would challenge his definition of what constitutes a new capital project. In our budget books we have a capital project for YCC. We are not changing the functional program by switching from renovation to new construction. Is the Member saying then that we should cancel the work on Tsiigehtchic School because we went from renovation to new construction? I do not think so. Over the years while meeting in this House, we have made this kind of change many, many times. There is no acceptance that we did not follow the proper process. What we apologized for was being slow at giving the committee notice. Contrary to what Mr. Morin alleges, because this is not a new capital project, this falls under section (b), 4.3(b), which says that the responsible Minister will advise the appropriate MLA and standing committees of changes made.

Therefore, it is not to be considered as far as this government is concerned, as a new project. There has been no change in the functional program. The project itself exists in the book. I listed three projects today where we made a switch from renovation to new construction, all based on information that was brought forward by consultants to demonstrate that we could save the public a considerable amount of money. It has been done in the past. Why would we not do it again in this situation? We should do it again in this situation.

I want to make it very clear that this government has apologized for not following the procedures as quickly as we should have. We should have advised the committee earlier. We are not saying that we did not follow the guidelines. Mr. Chairman, I have to say that I am really quite taken back by this motion and I do not support it. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Comments to the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I support this motion. I think that this decision that was made regardless of whether Mr. Dent wants to argue the technicality of the financial administration manual or not. The point of having standing committees is so that they can review the plans of various departments before decisions are made, not after the fact. I disagree with the Minister that there is such urgency attached to this project, that after certain money was voted in the budget, in the House, that the Cabinet could then take this back, substantively alter what the plans were and I hear that they are sorry that they did not consult the committee, but forget about the timing, this is a major project. This is the largest project that this government is going to undertake, that we have committed to undertake in the life of this Assembly and for a project of this size to be modified or changed in any way without following the protocol that we have set out for consultation with committees to see what kind of other information is out there to receive input from other MLAs is not acceptable.

I do not think this motion is saying that this project is not going to go ahead. I think what we are saying is we would like it returned to the drawing board, consult through the appropriate avenues and present those compelling and convincing arguments that are the basis of the decision to the committee and to the MLAs. I do not think that is an unreasonable request. This is a major shift and maybe the building will deliver the same type of program, but this is still a major shift and this is a lot of money. I do not think that this decision being made without consultation is defendable in any way. I will be supporting this motion.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I too, will be supporting this motion. Although my constituency includes the part of the city of Yellowknife and this project is one that is in Yellowknife, Mr. Chairman, there is no way that I can rationalize such a major shift as putting youth offenders together with adults in the same building. There is no way that I can rationalize that without public consultation to see what the general public of the Northwest Territories thinks about that. It is unprecedented, totally unprecedented.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Kakfwi, you have a point of order?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, just to make the point of order. The Member is making a statement that is not factual. There is no intent to put the young offenders and the adult offenders in the same building. The intent is to have them share some of the facilities. The point of order is that the Member's misleading, inadvertently perhaps, but it is still misleading, and it should be corrected.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

I do not believe that Mr. Kakfwi has a point of order. The replacement of the correctional facility and collocation of the young offenders facility are mentioned in the motion, so the Member does have the right to debate it in his comments. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Because of this major shift in the way that these collocated facilities are to be, as I understand it, attached to each other, this is a total shift in what was originally proposed. This should have come to the social programs committee, and it did not. The Yellowknife MLAs should have been consulted as well, and we were not. This is

in the government's own policy. Presumably this government makes policies and rules and regulations for a purpose. It is so that things will be done fairly and with input from all of us. This was a major shift in the way things were done in the previous Assemblies. It was done for a purpose, so that the Ordinary Members who sit on the committees would have input and have an opportunity to have public consultation if they wish. This whole process has been circumvented in this situation. Not only that, but we are moving from $4 million a year to something like $15 million a year or whatever in expenditures because this process is going to be increased so quickly.

Getting an apology is nothing, a puff of smoke. The Finance Minister may be taken aback. We would prefer that he take the project back so that we can have the proper consultation done through the standing committee and with the general public to see if this is an acceptable way of dealing with our youth, so that we can see if the general public is ready to have them in such a facility as this. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Comments to the motion. Mr. Henry.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, sometimes I think, when sitting in this position over here, that some of us on this side of the House continually live in la-la land. In the last session we have voted for an additional $5 million for education. We want more money put into health care. Yet we spend money like it is going out of style. We went on a travelling road show with Bill 15, and here we have an opportunity to save money by the government taking an action and re-evaluating somewhere where they can save $4 million, yet we want to stop a project because the government takes a good initiative. Certainly not from my perspective. I have heard three apologies from the government, and I am certainly willing to accept that. I would like to see it happen more often that if there is a mistake made, people are big enough to apologize. I do not see it as major circumstances for this government to take the action that they did, and I certainly will not be supporting this motion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Ootes.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think there are various viewpoints on this issue, and while there may be certainly some truth to the fact that Cabinet had a responsibility to inform the Members and to inform the committee, I think if I look at this historically, these projects were approved last year. The youth facility was approved by Cabinet last year. We approved in the budget the renovation costs of $4 million. To me it is just good governance to have Cabinet be conscientious about what they are doing, and if it looks like there is an ability to do it better, then sometimes you have to take that step. In my opinion there is a certain amount to be gained by the process that Cabinet is following here. We are told that the option is there to save $5 million if the project is speeded up to four years over seven years. They could have taken the other avenue of saying, we really do need a new facility, but we will take seven years. The money does not change then. Nothing changes, other than the name. The name becomes new versus renovation.

With respect to the project itself, there should not be an argument. There is an argument as to the process that was used, but Cabinet repeatedly have issued a note to us, they have apologized, and I think in the interests of the project, we should proceed. I am not sure what it will accomplish if we go back to the drawing board on this and do all sorts of consultations, et cetera. I am of the opinion that the youth facility, as I say, was approved last year. I think there is rationale for putting it where it is, and I will go with that. I will be voting against this motion.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was a decision made to locate a young offenders facility in Yellowknife, a stand-alone facility. There was a decision made to fix up the old correctional facility in Yellowknife. That decision was driven and sold in this House by a fire marshal's ruling or whatever. That is basically what drove the decision of us spending the money in fixing up that facility. Once that was changed to a new project, it changed everything because now it should be looked at seriously. Is that the right place for it? I do not know. Is it proper to have young offenders attached to adult offenders in the same facility? What am I supposed to do? Trust Kakfwi's word because he went on a little tour down south and looked at a few facilities? I do not think so.

We have a lot of people in the Northwest Territories who would be able to give us some good advice on that. We have a lot of people that work with people in the correctional centres, who work on programs. Maybe there are other ways of doing things. Maybe there are ways of doing it so you have better results in the end. You not only end up with new facilities housing people properly, but maybe there is a way of doing it in such a way that once they are there, they do not come back if you have something different. I do not know. None of us has been given that opportunity to look into that because the process was not followed. Once you are going to build a new facility, then that is what it is, a new facility. It is no longer a renovation. No matter how much you want to slip and slide around this one, Mr. Dent, you are dead wrong. This is new. It is new. It is as simple as that.

What is this motion saying? This motion is saying to consult with the standing committee. What does it hurt? What ramifications has it for the government to go back and consult with the committee? Maybe the decision will be the same. I do not know, but at least you have consulted and have given other people an opportunity to make comments on this. The first time the public in the Northwest Territories heard about this combination of this facility is just recently, since this House opened its doors this week. That was the first time. You have even given the people of Toronto more notice than you have given the people in the Northwest Territories. That is true, because I have looked in the northern newspapers, and I never saw anything. When you look in the Globe and Mail, we made our intention quite clear down there. Is this what this government has come to? You do not have the ability to consult anymore? That is not asking too much. That is being realistic, and that is being reasonable. Have you the answers for everything now? You do not need to consult anymore? Are you the supreme people in the North now? Only your decisions are the right ones and you cannot consult or ask for second opinions? That is what it is starting to sound like to me.

The Justice Minister had an opportunity to consult with people. The Justice Minister of the day had an opportunity. Once the scope of work had changed, he had that opportunity. He chose not to consult with people. He chose not to consult with the Members of the Legislative Assembly. He chose not to consult with the proper standing committee because he went south and saw a couple of facilities, and he is the expert now. I urge Members to vote in favour of this motion so that we can take a second look at this facility before you commit millions and millions of dollars into building a brand new correctional centre for Yellowknife and also to put adults and youth together. It will be interesting what people have to say that work with youth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Morin is asking for a recorded vote. Are you ready for the question? All those in favour, please stand.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Morin, Mr. Erasmus, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Rabesca.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

All those against the motion, please stand.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Ootes, Mr. Henry, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Kakfwi, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Dent, Mr. Roland, Mr. Steen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

All those abstaining from the motion? The results of the motion are four in favour, eight against, no abstentions. The motion is defeated. We are under Justice capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,737,887. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions for the Minister of Finance on this particular change. In the research which has caused this money to be going back into the funding now so that they can do a capital project instead, I would like to know if anyone researched whether or not there is any precedent for a combination facility such as this anywhere in Canada, anywhere in the world for that matter? Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Finance Minister, Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to refer that to the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is legislation that compels us to provide correctional facilities for adults and for young offenders. They are very clear and explicit, and there are facilities elsewhere in Canada that meet the requirements of the law in regard to the type of facilities that are provided and meet the requirement that the young offenders be treated and provide facilities and services separately from adults. It has been researched, and we have met with officials from other institutions that provide similar services and we are quite comfortable that it will be done in accordance to the requirements. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, does the Minister know of any other place in Canada where they have collocated adult and young offenders facilities? Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the question was directed to the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister, but to have order here, we will go through you, since it is your bill. Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are, as I said, other jurisdictions in Canada that provide facilities that have young offenders and adult offenders in the same general area. There is a requirement to make sure there is a separation so that there is no contact and minimal or zero visibility of each other. Yes, there are other facilities, sometimes in the very same building, of young offenders being brought into, for instance, the first floor with adults, women and men being on the second and third floor. They are fed from the same cooking facilities. They share the same gymnasium and recreational facilities sometimes, but they do not come within visual contact of each other. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Where?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will defer the answer to the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister is deferring the question to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can provide the Member with details of the other institutions in Canada that have young offenders and adult offenders in the same buildings and in the same general geographic area that share facilities. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 745

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I drive by the Yellowknife Correctional Centre on the way to work every day, and it presents a visual of something that looks very much like a jail. it has very high fences, I do not know how high, I would say probably 12 feet high chain-linked fence with double scrolls of barbed wire along the top of the fence. It looks very much like a prison. I have also seen young offenders facilities. You drive by them. Even secure custody young offenders facilities do not have the appearance or perception of a prison. These young offenders are children by definition. Under this new collocated plan that the government has come up with, will be taking children from the courthouse, I would assume, to a facility such as this with a locked gate, taking them into a facility like this. Has the department or the Minister considered the impact that this will have on children

who are sentenced under the Young Offenders Act? I think it would be anyone's understanding that certainly there must be a desire for rehabilitation and particularly with young people who are very impressionable. I would like to know if the department has considered the impact of taking children to such a facility? Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Minister of Justice would be better prepared to answer that question.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Financing is deferring the question to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For a number of years now, the Department of Justice has had virtually no capital. It has virtually had no capital budget for a number of years because this legislature, in its wisdom, has allocated the meagre capital that it has had at its disposal to other priority items. This is the very first time we have capital allocated to build new correctional facility and/or to renovate. But the intent clearly is to provide better or new facilities to young and adult offenders. That is the functional intent of the money that has been allocated and the decisions that were made by Cabinet and FMB. We have had no program space, and there is what you would call a crisis in the correctional facilities of the North.

The adult facility in Yellowknife is considered substandard and inadequate. The young offenders facilities, obviously, are no longer acceptable, and we are compelled by the fire marshal's order to provide new facilities by July, 2001. We need program space for the adults, and we need program space for the young offenders. We need recreational facilities for the young offenders as well. Under the original plan to do renovations to the adult facility, it was going to take seven years and a new revised capital estimates of $35 million. The decisions at that time by Cabinet in June, 1998, and in September, 1998, there was no consultation, but the decisions were made. The decisions were made then. It is my view that in the interest of the inmates, the young offenders, and really that is our responsibility, my responsibility as a Minister and our responsibility as a Cabinet, to provide adequate services and facilities to those in our care, and those are incarcerated people, the young offenders, who are required by an order, to provide these facilities within a time frame.

It is my view that we are compelled, in the public interest, to proceed to quit revisiting decisions, implement the decisions made by Cabinet and FMB, which was started well over a year ago and that we go ahead with design, finalize the blueprints, give those out in whatever form we decide and start with site preparation and construction by the latter part of next year which should see the facilities hopefully being completed somewhere in the spring of 2001 so that we can have it occupied and functional by July, 2001. This is what we need to do. The Members should not forget that there is a facility that you have not mentioned once yet, the female young offenders facility, which was located in Inuvik, again by Cabinet in the spring of 1998. Nobody has put that into the picture. Cabinet has decided that decision would stay as well. In the interest of the public, I would say we are compelled to act. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The intent of providing better facilities, better programs to rehabilitate inmates and young offenders is a great one. I have been promoting this for years. We have absolutely no problem with that. We have no problem with the two projects. The problem is putting youth and adults together. We have been told yes, it happens some place, we do not know where. We cannot say where it is, but we do know it happens. Well, we do not know that. We do not know if the general public will accept this even if it has been done someplace else. This project has gone from a seven year project, where you would take $4 million a year out of the budget, to now all of sudden I think it is $35 million or $30 million, whatever, taken out of the budget in two years. Two years from now, this month, that building will be finished. That is a huge, huge change, which the committee structure was put into place to address. We are not saying, kill the project. All we want is a proper consultation with proper processes followed. Read the motion. Maybe you should be able to read a few more words further. It is planning and implementation processes for the adjusted design. The two projects can still proceed, but when you put it together, it is a totally different project. We should be consulted.

The Minister had some problem about my saying that the youth and the adults would be in the same facility. I cannot remember my exact words. Maybe we can get a description of this project. Will these two different groups of people, the youth and the adult inmates, be in a building that is somehow attached?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I can deal with the financial part of the question, and that would be that the financing is proposed to be spread over four years rather than seven. The other questions the Member asks could better be answered by the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Minister Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The general intent is to provide facilities in the same geographic area. They are not even visible by each other. To find a way within the parameters of legislation to have, for instance, the young offenders have access to a gymnasium and perhaps some other facilities that the adult offenders would also have access to, that is the intent. It may be what you would say is podular in design. It may be separate but connected. We have not drawn up the blueprints, but we will begin the design that will lead into blueprints.

If there is interest, we would be pleased to involve those MLAs that would have time to get off the campaign trail this fall to be involved in the design and planning of it. As the Minister, I will be in office until hopefully at least the latter part of December or January, so I can provide that. We can be involved in the work, and we will undertake to get into the design. The design is really the part that I think you would be interested in, so we would be quite happy to provide that to Members. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is the Minister offering to go through the proper consultation process?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chairperson, we have to get into the business of designing what it is that we are willing to pay for. We have the money. We just have to do the work to design something that we want or pick a design that we want. I am offering to involve Members of the Legislature, along with myself, in that as I get information, to inform them of it. A most generous offer. I should note again that these were approved by the Legislature and by Cabinet well over a year ago. There was no idea at all of what these facilities would look like, but we went ahead anyway. As I say, if you are interested in knowing what the facilities are going to look like, I would be very pleased to keep you informed of it. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is interesting to note that the department has been warehousing inmates for years with no programs and proper space. Now all this whole schemozzle, putting youth together with adults because of a gymnasium. That is it? That is the Minister's reasoning for putting these guys together, so they can share a gym? Very compassionate. I do not agree. We do not have the money. The Premier said the other day that we might have to borrow the money. I am sure that is what he said in this House. If the Premier is saying that we might have to borrow the money to do this project, could I have an explanation of how someone can say that we have the money to do this? How do you reconcile the two statements?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The Premier responded to a question from yourself, Madam Chairperson, about how capital projects are financed. Typically the government uses a variety of forms of financing from cash on hand to short-term borrowings to long-term borrowings, depending on what it takes to finance the operations of the government. In this situation, it had been proposed that to carry on with the plan as was first projected, we would have been spending $35 million. As things stand now, we will be spending $30 million, so in fact we have found a way to do this less expensively than we might otherwise have done. The government typically chooses the best way to finance a project by what its needs are at any given time. The government does borrow money. In fact, when I became Minister of Finance, we were some $40 million in debt in short-term notes. I believe that figure is probably much reduced by now, but it all has to do with how our finances, our revenues flow. We do often borrow money..

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. I have Mr. Morin and Mr. Krutko. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is interesting, I do not know if there is a lack of understanding or if there is just not a will at all, once a decision is made, to listen to any other input on it. I see the slipping and the sliding. A renovation can be changed to build a new building because the function of the program delivery has not changed. That is amazing. It has not changed the project. That is totally, totally amazing. The next thing we are going to hear in this Legislative Assembly is probably that we have now decided to build a brand new highway between Fort Rae and Yellowknife instead of reconstructing the old one over many years - and we can do that all on our own - because the function of the program delivery has not changed. There are still going to be the same vehicles going over and over it. It is the same type of issue. Some of us may be going on the campaign trail later, but I think some are there already.

It is amazing to hear the Minister, who did not have the decency or the foresight to follow the process and consult with the committee or Members that it affects, now offer for us to have some input into the building design. He is going to be involved. I do not know what his qualifications are, but he is going to be involved. There are a lot of people and organizations in Canada that say these cement buildings with bars, stuck on the outskirts of populated areas to house aboriginal inmates, do not do their job. The numbers of people going in there just keep going up and up and up, and there is never any change. The numbers just increase. I have seen programs and talked to people. People are taking different approaches on how to house and give program delivery to aboriginal inmates. There are different approaches all through Canada. It seems ironic, Madam Chairperson, that in the Northwest Territories, where aboriginal people are just about the majority, close to 50 percent of the population, we are going to build a building to warehouse inmates. I think it is safe to say it is over 90 percent aboriginal people in our correctional centres, but there is no imagination to do anything different.

Before this Minister became the Minister, the previous Minister had no choice but to make the decisions he made, for the simple reason that you are talking about a renovation of a building. Nothing else, just a renovation. You had to do it because of a fire marshal's order. Now all of a sudden you have brand new dollars. You are going to build a brand new facility. What do they want to build? They want to build a cement building with bars on the windows and a gym that young offenders and adult offenders can share, and I believe it is a kitchen that they both get to share as well. I do not know if that is the answer at all. I do not even know if this is the proper place to put a brand new building of that type. I do not even know, if you have $35 million kicking around, if that is the right approach. I do not know that. I do not have the information that you all have. What I do know is that if you take the opportunity to consult with the standing committee, if you take the opportunity to consult with MLAs and other interest groups, if you have the time, maybe somebody with some qualifications, maybe somebody with some experience may have another answer. Then again, maybe those same people will say, you are doing the right thing, that is the right thing to do. I do not know that. We have not been given the opportunity to go explore that. The Minister says this is the first time his department has a capital expenditure budget. Well, if it is the first time, he should attempt to do it right. He should attempt to make the right decision. But then alas, again, you would never want to question the Minister that knows what is good for all because he has made the decision. He went south. I think he went to Alberta and Saskatchewan. I am not sure where he went, but he went somewhere anyhow where these facilities exist. No, no I am bragging you up, Mr. Minister. You are such a great guy with great vision. Very short-sighted vision but great, anyhow.

But what I cannot understand is what we are attempting to do and we are meeting great resistance from the government is to have the ability to go out and get some advice as well. We would like that opportunity as well. You have had the advice of your departments, of the bureaucracy, of the people in the system. I do not know if you had advice from people outside the system, from the inmates themselves. I do not know if you have gotten that advice. I have not seen any of that information. Maybe this is the greatest decision that was made in the 13th Legislative Assembly, or is going to be made. I do not know that.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

When we are speaking, Members, we should refrain from speaking directly to the Minister we are talking about. We should refer to them as second, not in first. You would have to say he because you will be speaking through the Chair. I just wanted to remind Members of that, refrain from speaking directly to the Minister. Thank you. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you. You know that this is the first time, as the Minister said, that he has a budget in Justice, and it is probably long overdue. But I still have serious concerns about the process followed. No matter how they want to slip and slide around this issue, this is a new project. It is as simple as that. The scope of work has changed to a new building. It is as simple as that. Why the government would not want to go out and meet with the standing committee responsible and get some other advice. This is a huge expenditure. Previously the decision was made, you had no choice but to spend the money at that facility because it was a renovation decision. There are no questions about Inuvik's facility. That never, ever changed. It never, ever changed. As far as my understanding, it never, ever changed. It was always to be in Inuvik, it is still there. But Cabinet made so many great decisions that I do not remember them all.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Your ten minutes is up. I will move on now to Mr. Krutko and we will return to you again if you have further comments, at the discretion of the Chair. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, I would like an opportunity to respond to some of Mr. Morin's comments please?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. I am sorry that I overlooked giving you that opportunity, Mr. Dent. I was not viewing them as questions more as comments. Please feel free to do that. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

I agree that they were more comments than questions, Madam Chairperson, but I do take offence to being accused of slipping and sliding. The Member will probably be aware that in September, 1998, FMB approved the Department of Justice's submission for funding to support a comprehensive plan for community justice and corrections in response to the Evans Report. That plan identified the need to significantly expand the Yellowknife Correctional Centre to deal with serious overcrowding and lack of programming facilities. When he says that the scope of the program has changed, he is wrong. The scope of the project has not changed. I am sorry, but his definition of scope and mine are obviously different. I would argue that historically, this government is, this Assembly and all the Members of this Cabinet and previous Members, have made similar changes and they have always been considered as not changing the scope of the project.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, just getting back to the Main Estimates, Department of Justice, it clearly states that the Government of the Northwest Territories undertake a Public Private Partners initiatives to increase involvement in public facilities under the P3 approach. These projects that I am talking about on the P3 are in the budget. It is a female young offenders facility in Inuvik, and it is supposed to be completed in January, 2001, of $4.762 million. Also in that, there is a male young offenders facility located in Yellowknife be completed January, 2001, at a cost of $6.332 million. These are P3's. That is how it was explained to us, and that is how we approved it in the budget.

Also the nice little pretty handbook here that the Minister publicly got printed and given to the public to read, also in there it clearly states that two new young offenders facilities are also in the planning stages, a 24-bed male facility in Yellowknife and a 12-bed facility for females in Inuvik. Those two projects were among the seven pilot projects currently being planned through the government's Public Private Partners Initiatives. That is a P3 initiative the way I understand it in the budget. Now you are telling us you are going to take these projects, along with the YCC initiative and change the scope of the P3 to now go for a new facility. Is that what the plan is now to take these out of the P3 frame and basically build them through one facility in a new contracting process?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is our intent to take the Yellowknife facility out of the P3 process, and there are a couple of reasons for that. From what I understand, the project had always been proposed for a lot adjacent to the correctional centre, but the consultants who were looking at some of the initial design work for YCC, suggested that it was already being planned for close to that centre. If it were set so that it could share some of the facilities, there was probably room for savings of over a million dollars in capital costs and $250,000 or $260,000 in ongoing operations and maintenance. The other reason we had to consider was timing. We have been finding, as we are fairly new in the P3 process, it is taking us quite some time to work through a lot of the kinks and to get projects on the ground. Given the fact that we must have this facility up and running very quickly, there was some concern about whether or not, in addition to the capital savings, if we left it as a P3 project, we could actually achieve its conclusion in the time frame that we have. At this point, there has been no change in the status of the Inuvik facility.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regards to the whole matter of keeping the inmates separate and whatnot, I do not feel comfortable with having young offenders housed in the same facility as adults. In regards to the Young Offenders Act, under subsection 28(4), it says subject to section 30, a young person who is committed to custody under Section 20(j), shall be held separate and apart from any adults. What does that mean to you, Mr. Minister?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand that mean that there can be no contact between adult and young incarcerated people. It means that they must be separated visually and orally so that there is absolutely no contact between them.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In response to provide additional information to Mr. Krutko, one of the urgent requirements we had is to provide remand facilities that are adequate for young offenders. Presently, we put young offenders, for instance, in the Inuvik jail and Yellowknife. They are the same jail facilities, holding cells in the same area as adults. We have no remand capacity whatsoever. It is urgent that we have that provided to young offenders, for female offenders and for adult offenders. I think it is important to point that out to the Member. There is some urgency to proceed with facilities, for providing facilities, adequate facilities, not only for the adults but also for the young offenders. A remand facility right now is required urgently. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

My interpretation of what you mean by separate. Separate to me means a separate building altogether. Apart means there has to be a distance between point A and point B. I believe that I supported these initiatives with the understanding that these will be two separate projects. There will be funding there for the renovation of the YCC correctional facility and there will be two buildings built in Inuvik and Yellowknife. One, to house the female young offenders and one to house the male offenders. Those were two separate projects.

You talk about the facility here in Yellowknife and where you want to put the male facility in YCC, but then you use the argument, well, if we do that, they are going to have a gymnasium and all these other things. What about the female facility in Inuvik? Do they also get a gymnasium or do they also get a bigger kitchen area? What is the difference between a male and female young offender? Are we treating one differently than the other?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The facilities were always planned to be located adjacent to one another. It comes down to a question of whether or not we can, with a building that is not physically separated, guarantee physical separation of certain inmates. I have no reason to believe that we could not. In terms of what is going to be included in the facilities in the Inuvik centre, I would have to refer that part to the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is our intent, and I want to assure Mr. Krutko, that we will build and provide these facilities in full accordance with the legislative requirements for young offenders and also for adult offenders. We will do that. We are not going to go by his definition of what separate means. We will go by what the legal definition is because that is what we are required to do, much the same way as we will go by the building code. Not his building code, but the official building code, and we will go by the official definitions contained in there.

The Cabinet made a decision. There was no consultation about where to put the young female offenders' facility but it was decided by Cabinet last year to put it in Inuvik. That is the decision. I revisited that and it is my view that the decision, because again with the time constraints, it would be cheaper to put it in Hay River. It would be cheaper to put it in Fort Smith. It would be even cheaper to put it in Yellowknife. There is no difficulty whatsoever to do that. The decision of Cabinet at that time, with no consultation as I recall, was to place it in Inuvik. In my view, that is where it is going to stay and we will see what we can do to make sure that they have access to gymnasiums, those sort of things. The decision clearly is to locate it in Inuvik. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko's time is up and I am going to call a 15 minute break before we proceed with any other speakers. Thank you.

-Break

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I call the committee

back to order. The Department of Justice, capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,730,887. Before we took the break, I had Mr. Morin. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just so I understand what happened here and we are of the same understanding as the Minister, this was going to be a renovation of the existing facility. It was going to be a new facility for young offenders. Then you went out for some preliminary costing, and the architectural firm said that it does not make sense to renovate Yellowknife Correctional Centre because it is going to cost so many million dollars, that it makes more sense to build a new one. No one ever said that to go back and renovate makes more sense than to build a new one. I would just let the Minister know that as well. It makes more sense and makes better economics to build a new facility and to combine the two. That is what the architectural firm said.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, the project as it was presented would have involved renovating the 4,000 square metres that presently exist and increasing it to 10,600 square metres of total space. It would have meant that substantially the project was new construction more than renovation. There was some renovation and enhancement. Perhaps there is not a clear understanding that part of the enhancement was a significant amount of new construction. I am talking just about YCC. The project as presented was, as I say, to renovate sections of the existing 4,000 square metres and add enough new space so we would wind up with 10,600 square metres in total.

With the level of planning that was done at the time and the estimate of $28.3 million was made, there was a sense that the project could be done for that amount. By May the department had come back and said that their consultant advised it would take over seven years to do what had been proposed for YCC and that it would now cost $35 million. FSC said that if you can shorten the time frame, forget about trying to renovate the 4,000 square metres, just get rid of it and build it all new, would probably cost only $30 million. They subsequently have said that rather than locating the young offenders facility on land adjacent to YCC, you could put them close enough together so they can share certain parts of the facilities, while still maintaining total separation, there are further savings of, I believe $6.4 million. They also identified some ongoing operations and maintenance savings from that collocation.

That, Madam Chairperson, outlines the process. We have gone from a situation where we were proposing to renovate the existing 4,000 square metres, add 6,600 square metres to YCC and a separate stand-alone facility to bring them together. The total savings are substantial if we can do it in the manner proposed. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It was the architectural firm that made this recommendation to the government to put them closer together, semi-attached or something, so that they can share the same facilities. The architectural firm said that it is cheaper than the original idea of renovation, enhancement and two separate facilities. It is the architectural firm that recommended back to the government to do this. Is this correct?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I believe that you need to keep the two initiatives separate. On YCC, I believe that the architects recommended that it looked like it would be cheaper to build new rather than trying to renovate the 40 percent first proposed. They said that instead of spending $35 million over seven years, a new facility built over a shorter time period would be estimated at $30 million. They also suggested further savings could be achieved by sharing the planned services, if that was possible, between the YCC and the young offenders facility.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Who in the architectural firm has experience and background in rehabilitation programs for youth and adults and considers that the majority of them, 90 percent, are aboriginal inmates and that this would be best for the inmates?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would expect that would be the people in Justice, so maybe I could refer to the Minister of Justice to respond.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chairperson, the adult facility that we provide is designed to meet with the requirements of legislation, the same as the young offenders facility and the architects that we work with have sufficient expertise to cost out how much it would cost us to build facilities based on how many inmates we propose to take care of so we work with our officials and DPW and architects. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madame Chairperson. So this decision that the government has made, and you have heard it many, many times in this House, decisions made on the advice they receive. So they have received advice from the architectural firm, from DPW, from construction architects in DPW, those types of people. They have received advice from the Justice department and the bureaucracy itself. Was there any advice received at all from caregivers or program delivery people or people that are involved in rehabilitation of inmates or youths, people who are involved in young offenders programs, people that are involved in developing specific institutions or specific rehabilitation centres in southern Canada or anywhere else in Canada that are specific to aboriginal people by taking

into account the culture of aboriginal people and rehabilitation. Anything like that? Where does that fit into the mix? Where in his consultation did that fit in the Minister's consultation process?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. I will refer that question to Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madame Chairperson. The time to have considered these types of questions was a year and a half ago when there was a lot of time to be creative, innovative and open to locating these facilities and to look at every possible design. That time is long gone. We have very little time left to meet the requirements of the inmates and the young offenders. The decisions have been made and it is unfortunate that early on in the spring and summer of 1998, government did not consult the way we are being told it should have been consulting, but the opportunity is long gone and it is time now to move on, get on to designing these. As I said, if this Member wants to help us be creative and involve every possible person in the design of these facilities I am open to it. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Morin, that ten minutes is up. I had two people on my list when we took the break. Mr. Erasmus and Mr. Krutko, I believe. I do not remember which order they were in so, Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madame Chairperson. We are hearing now that these two groups of people who would be served with these facilities may not actually be in a building that is attached, but that is not what we heard earlier. If I remember correctly, it was to be in a building with the youth basically in a separate wing. I would like some clarification on that, please.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chairperson, perhaps the Member could shorten his questions to get it clear.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Which part does he want me to shorten?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

The preamble and the inquiry. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Perhaps now that he is not talking to those other two, he will be able to hear me. We had heard earlier, I am sure that the two groups of people that are going to be provided with programs in this project, the youth and the adult people, the way I understood it was that they would be in an overall single building with basically the youth in a separate wing but that would be connected. Are we now hearing that this may not actually be the case, that there would actually be two separate facilities but situated close enough so that the youth can participate in a gym that is probably in the larger facility for the adults?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chairperson, we are going to build a young offenders facility for young male offenders. Instead of renovating the old Yellowknife Correctional Institute, we are going to build a new building. We believe that, in discussions with DPW, our officials, and our consultants, that we can build the two facilities in such a manner that they can be close together, whether they would be actually physically linked to each other or not. We will get into detailed planning of it very shortly. As I said, there is no actual design made yet, but we will proceed very shortly to do that. Members that wish to see the plans as we proceed will be welcome to have that information provided to them. That is what I have said yesterday and I think the day before. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Could the Minister indicate where does the public come in, in this process? When does the public consultation occur to see whether the general public agrees that these two facilities should be either situated so closely together that they can use the same facilities or to be linked?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 751

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The public has been telling us for some time, including every Member of this Legislature, that the Yellowknife Correctional Facility is in a sorry state. Every Member has said that. I think even the good Member that just asked the question has said that on a number of occasions, that it needs to be replaced, so we are going to do that. The public is very loud and clear about that. The inmates are very loud and clear about it. The officials who look at the provisions that government makes in carrying out the responsibilities are clear about it. That institution is inadequate and in a very sorry state.

The fire marshal has basically ordered us to provide new young offenders facilities by a certain date. The public, over and over, has said they would like northern inmates to stay in the north, not go south, stay in the north. The public has said over and over the families and the relatives of these inmates want easy access to them. They want easy access to them. The public has said we want you to provide programming so that you are not housing, warehousing these inmates but actually providing programs and that program space should be provided. It is required of us to give the best possible care to these inmates, whatever you think of them. Some of you have called them hard core criminals. We are bound, we are responsible for providing adequate care, the best care possible, for these inmates. It means that we should locate them in a place where there are programs and services available to them. We have taken all these into account.

consultation at all, we locate a facility in Inuvik and Yellowknife for young offenders. Those decisions were made by Cabinet. To say and to suggest that there should be consultation now when we have literally run out of time, I believe, is actually irresponsible. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 752

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus, I believe the clock has run out again. I have Mr. Krutko.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 752

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

I would like to make a motion to report progress.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 752

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. The motion is in order. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. I will now rise and report progress.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 752

The Speaker

The House will come back to order. Good afternoon. We are on item 20, report of committee of the whole. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 23, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1999-2000, and would like to report progress. Mr. Speaker, it is with a heavy heart that I move that the report of the committee be concurred with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

The Speaker

Seconded by Mr. Dent. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

This morning the Premier, Mr. Antoine, rose on a point of order. Mr. Antoine indicated that he took offence to the comments made on July 29, 1999, by the Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Erasmus, and specifically, his reference to "proverbial wooden Indian" made on page 1170 of the unedited Hansard. He noted that he found the comments to be offensive. I allowed debate on the point of order as to assist me in my ruling. Mr. Erasmus was the first to speak on the point of order. He stated that he did not believe the comments were offensive. Mr. Erasmus later explained that the phrase was used to denote not listening and that there was no further intended meaning. The Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi, in debate, noted that he found that the comment perpetuated stereotyping with racial overtones.

Issues revolving unparliamentary language are always difficult. As Speaker, it is always my hope and desire that all honourable Members respect each other and conduct themselves in a fashion consistent to the dignity of this Assembly. Most of the time, this occurs and debate is productive and vigorous, yet respectful of Members and of the institution. The few cases where I had to rule on issues of unparliamentary language are troubling because regardless of the outcome of the ruling, there is impairment to the respect and harmony of this institution.

Rule 22(k) provides that a Member will be called to order if he uses "abusive or insulting language". Of course, what is abusive or insulting is a highly subjective matter. However, all Members must be careful in listening to debate, it is clear that some Members of this House found those words to be insulting. However, equally important, is the Member's right to speak freely in the House so long as it does not impinge upon the rights of other Members.

I note Beauchesne's, citation 69, states:

"It is important to indicate that something can be inflammatory, can be disagreeable, can even be offensive, but it may not be a question of privilege unless the comment actually impinges upon the ability to Members of parliament to do their job properly."

Giving full consideration to the explanation for his use of the words provided by the Member, Mr. Erasmus, and bearing in mind every Member's right of freedom of speech, I do not believe that his words "cross the line" and are unparliamentary. I do, however, note that the Member has withdrawn his words. Therefore, I rule that there is no point of order.

Item 21, third reading of bills. Mr. Morin.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 6. Thank you.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

The Speaker

The Member for Tu Nedhe is seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 6, oral questions. Do we have any nays?

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

Some Hon. Members

Nay.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

The Speaker

Mr. Morin you do not have unanimous consent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Although the Speaker did not find a point of order in what I had said, if the Member to whom I was referring to was insulted or took it the wrong way, I am sorry and I probably should have used different terminology. I would like to reiterate again that phrase can be taken out of my statement from yesterday. Thank you.

--Applause

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 752

The Speaker

Third reading of bills. Mr. Antoine.

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, that Bill 15, an Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, be read for the third time. Mahsi cho.

The Speaker

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Morin.

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request a recorded vote on this motion. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. The Member for Tu Nedhe is

requesting a recorded vote. All those in favour of the bill, please stand.

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Antoine, Mr. Dent, Mr. Roland, Mr. Steen, Mr. Erasmus, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Ootes, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Kakfwi.

The Speaker

All those opposed, please stand.

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Krutko, Mr. Rabesca, Mr. Morin.

The Speaker

All those abstaining? Thank you. The result of the vote is nine for, three against, no abstentions. The motion is passed. Bill 15 has had third reading. Third reading of bills. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Labour Standards Act

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha, that Bill 19, an Act to Amend the Labour Standards Act, be read for the third time.

The Speaker

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Bill 19 has had third reading. Third reading of bills. Mr. Steen.

Bill 20, Municipal Statutes Amendment Act

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik, that Bill 20, Municipal Statutes Amendment Act, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Bill 20 has had third reading. Third reading of bills. Mr. Dent.

Bill 24, An Act to Amend the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that Bill 24, An Act to Amend the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, be read for the third time.

The Speaker

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Bill 24 has had third reading. Third reading of Bills.

Before we call in the Commissioner, I want to thank the Members for this week and hope you still continue to enjoy your summer. Have a safe holiday and enjoy your time off, if you have time off.

It is my understanding that the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories is prepared to enter the Chamber and give assent and prorogue this session. Mr. Clerk, could you ascertain if his Honour, the Commissioner, is available to enter the Chamber?

Commissioner Marion

Mr. Speaker, Premier and honourable Members, before I assent to the bills today, I wish to advise this House that I have been visiting communities in the Northwest Territories during the past few months. I have had the distinct pleasure of bestowing awards upon deserving individuals for their special contributions to the North in civic and public duties. I would be remiss if I did not mention them today. Father Jean Pochat, the former administrator of Grandin College, Ronald H. Franklin of Fort Simpson, both have received the Commissioner's Certificate of Recognition. Sarah Hardisty of Jean Marie River, the late Thelma Tees of Yellowknife, Baptiste Cazon of Fort Simpson, Tom Eagle of Yellowknife, and Daniel Sonfrere of Hay River all received the Commissioner's Lifetime Service Award. As well, I presented the Commissioner's Community Service Award to Haig Carthew and Ter Hamer of Yellowknife and Roy Fabien of Hay River.

I would like to thank the Premier and honourable Members for their time and effort in making this program of special recognition possible. I will be continuing my visits to the rest of the Northwest Territories and I would like to travel to the Delta and our Inuvialuit communities in the near future. Along the way I will be seeking out deserving individuals who have made significant contributions to the quality of life in the Northwest Territories.

I was very saddened to hear that John Vogt of Fort Smith had passed away recently. John was a prominent businessman, former mayor and a resident of the North since the 1950s. He was known for his kindness and generosity and he made valuable contributions to his community. John will be missed by many. I was also saddened to learn that Thelma Tees of Yellowknife passed away recently. Thelma's contributions to her community are too numerous to mention. She worked with many service organizations while raising a large family and was a founding member of Northern Addictions Services. Even after retirement she continued to work with alcoholics and volunteered her time and considerable energy to many community service organizations. Yellowknife is much richer because of the life that Thelma chose to live.

As Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, I am pleased to assent to the following Bills: Bill 15, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Labour Standards Act Bill 20, Municipal Statutes Amendment Act Bill 24, An Act to Amend the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act

Prior to proroguing this session, I wish to announce that the Eighth Session of the 13th Legislative Assembly will convene on Tuesday, September 7, 1999, at 1:30 pm.

As Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, I hereby prorogue the Seventh Session of the 13th Legislative Assembly. Thank you.