This is page numbers 295 - 364 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was communities.

Topics

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 348

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. McLeod.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

June 29th, 2000

Page 348

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

I just wanted to make some comments on the same issue. Some of the communities in my riding are in the same situation. They are seeing increases in their assessment for up to 300 to 400 percent. I had a call from one of my constituents voicing concern over this. They are very worried that it is going to result in an increase in the taxes.

When he bought his property, it was worth a little over $2,500 and the last assessment prior to this one was assessed at $4,000. There have been no improvements to his property. His house is the same one. Now, he is being assessed at over $24,000.

He does not see why. When I asked the question in question period, I was told the assessment was based on improvements to the property, improvements to the house. In this case, there were none. He is still seeing an increase in the assessment, which will result in increased taxes.

I wanted to ask the Minister what is the assessment based on? I understand in some other communities, the taxes are based using other southern cities or towns as a base. Can you explain to me what is used as a base to base the value of the property on? I cannot see the value of property in the community of Enterprise, for instance, being worth $50,000 or $60,000, when ten years ago they were selling for $2,000. How do you justify it?

I have heard you say improvements to the property and the house, but in this case, this example that I have used, there were no improvements at all. I have to think there were other things built into this assessment. Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Antoine.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Besides the improvements to real property, which is the house, the market value of the land and also basing it on regional development costs of the land. Lets say there is a piece of property in Enterprise, and if there is a comparable piece of property that has been recently developed in the same municipality, that is what they compare it to.

Ten years ago, property was expensive compared to today. In Enterprise, perhaps in the most recent years, a similar type of property may have been developed for substantially more. Perhaps ten years ago, it was developed in the community for $2,500, but today, you would sell it for...

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Mr. McLeod.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I do not think the Minister is going to convince me that some of these properties are worth $50,000. That is the argument that the residents in the Deh Cho are using. They cannot see the justification of the market value that is being assessed to these properties. It is not realistic to see properties go from $4,000 to $30,000. Even to say that your property values have gone up, nobody is buying that. The Minister has indicated that Finance will balance things out by not raising the taxes. Increases will not be so drastic. We have already seen that. Taxes have probably tripled in most of the communities. It seems to be a little too drastic. I would like to ask the Minister if he would commit his department to reviewing the whole process. If nobody has gone to the communities to see the improvements, I do not see how they can use the arguments to justify that the property values have gone up because of property improvements and home improvements. It seems to be just like a blanket approach to it and I do not think that is fair.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Antoine.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the assessment went out to all the property owners in the Northwest Territories. To try to alleviate the problems, or deal with the problems, different individuals may have with the assessment, a Board of Revision, which is an independent body to receive complaints and to deal with each complaint as they come. That is the process that we have in place to try to deal with this issue right now. The honourable Member is asking the department to take another look at how the assessment was done, and to raise concerns I am hearing here today by different Members representing their small communities. We will do that. I have been asking the department myself because a 300 to 400 percent increase in the assessment is quite drastic. The information I share with you is the information I receive. It is a legislative process as well, however, we will review the system, the way they have come to the numbers that they have. I raise the concern that you have with my Members in the department who are dealing with this. Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. McLeod.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

I wanted to ask the Minister, in light of all the taxes and the frustration in the communities that I am hearing from the chief and members of the council and the mayor and the council, they would like to consider a block land transfer. I pose that question at some point, to transferring those lands over to IAB lands for treaty and status Dene. Would that be something that the Minister would entertain?

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Antoine.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the IAB lands are Indian Affairs band lands. It has never been raised to this department before to consider a block land transfer to Indian Affairs land. I have to go back from experience. I know that different bands in the past from different chiefs, I have done band councils to Indian Affairs themselves to request certain identified lots in their communities to be transferred and made into band lands by Indian Affairs. This is an Indian Affairs initiative. I know that for some years now, Indian Affairs have put a stop to doing that, but I think it is something that could be considered. It used to be done in the past, and we have to find out if it has been considered or done by Indian Affairs again.

As a department within the Government of the Northwest Territories, I cannot speak for the Department of Indian Affairs, a federal department that deals with treaty Indians, to commit to that. Certainly we would like to investigate it and see what the possibilities are. I would work with the individual bands to consider that and be supportive. Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Before I go to the next speaker, I will give Mr. Lafferty a chance to ask a question. I cut him off early the last time. Mr. Lafferty.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was going to say the property tax assessments they do because of the development of land in other areas, I am sort of puzzled. They do not own the land. They cannot sell the land. Yet the market price goes up. The homeowner does not have anything to gain, whether he sells the home or not. He only sells the home. The land is not his to sell, so the property value goes up and he has to pay for that? Or she? I do not understand and I am puzzled. Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Murray.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Murray

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are right. It is not the same as ownership of the land, but you can transfer the land that you have in that lease to another person for the remaining amount of time. Most of the leases are in the range of 30 to 35 years. There are a fair number of years of interest in that which get transferred, as well. I am not saying that it is the same value as owned land, though. I would not expect it to be the same as owned land.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Murray. Mr. Roland.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 349

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the previous Assembly I raised a concern, coming from a tax-based community, where through taxes on our properties end up paying for the majority of services and infrastructure that comes into our community. For example, a rec centre in a tax-based community, I will need some information on here. About 20 percent of the transfers and then the taxpayers cover the rest of it. There is a block portion. That affects your taxes in a sense. You end up paying more taxes. I would like to get information on that. I have heard the concerns of non-tax-based communities. In the tax base, and I know that the Minister made reference to Yellowknife being different because they have their own evaluators and so on. I know the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs has done work in my community, and they have gone to the town and adjusted some of the limits. That has impacted how you read the taxes and the tax roll. For my community, and the other tax-based communities, are they the same and how are they treated differently? What would a three bedroom home and the property that is 80 by 100 in a tax-based community pay versus a non-tax-based community? Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Antoine.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, the city of Yellowknife oversees its own assessment. As well, it levies and sets its own mill rate. It is the only the community in the North that does that. I also mentioned that the non-tax-based communities, the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs provides the assessment services, and the Department of Finance sets the tax rates and gives notices and collects the taxes. In the other tax-based municipalities, including Inuvik, Hay River, Fort Smith, and Norman Wells, the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs oversees the assessment. However, these communities set their own mill rates, their own levies and taxes, and they collect their own taxes. There is a difference between Yellowknife, tax-based municipalities and the non-tax-based communities.

The specific question of how they assess the three...the tax-based municipality sets their own mill rates. I do not know what they base it on. That is the system that we have in place right now. Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Roland.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just as an example, in a previous home I owned in Inuvik, and this is a number of years ago, but I paid approximately $1,200 a year for property taxes in my community. I know the community itself sets its own mill rate. If we want more facilities, we are going to increase the taxes, and when the government makes cutbacks, they increase the mill rate because we need to keep the infrastructure in the community. We are stuck in that situation. If you do a comparison of that, and I used about an 80 by a 100 lot, my old piece of property, and valued by the town, and because there are more services I pay more tax. If you looked at a property adjacent or close to the same size in a tax-based/non-tax-based, what would the difference be? Thank you.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Murray.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

Murray

In terms of how the formula is used to calculate the assessments, they are all done under the same piece of legislation. The same sort of formulas are used. Where the difference is might be in terms of the comparability of the services versus a non-tax-based community. In Inuvik, because they have a utilidor system, it would get a value, but it would not be sitting in another community. By and large, the same formulas were used. If identical services were being provided to two houses, the assessment part should not change substantially between the two.

From an assessment point of view, where you may find the differences is in the mill rates and things like that, especially if it is in the same region. Because the development costs of land are considered regionally, overall. In terms of the Fort Smith region, we looked into the community development costs in all the communities. We can try to find a specific example and pass that on to you, if you like.

Recommendation 1
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 350

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Murray. Mr. Roland.