Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just following up on my previous questions about the Aklavik Health Centre, I would like to know from the Minister, looking at the previous estimates and also looking at the budget from last year, it is clear that there was $1.069 million allocated for the year 2000/2001, but as everybody knows there hasn't been any site development, nothing has been done on this particular project. Again, I am getting back to my calculations of what was in 2001/2002, in which the total is $3.5 million. I again would like to ask, could the Minister tell me exactly what of the $1.069 that has been expended and what has it been expended on? Public Works?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will attempt to find that detail for the Member, Mr. Chairman. Mr. St. Germaine does not have the breakdown of what that initial amount of money was actually spent on, but we will commit to getting it for the Member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Madam Minister. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the community of Aklavik was expecting a $3.569 million hospital. They have not got anything yet. Now we are being told there's $2.5 million in this budget and that we estimate the costs of the facility after we do all our cuts as $3 million. Yet, calculating the estimates, there is still $500,000 and some thousand dollars that hasn't been expended. I would like to know exactly where has that $500,000 gone?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will see if Mr. St. Germaine could answer that. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Minister. Mr. St. Germaine.

Thank you, Mr. St. Germaine. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The problem I have is I have had this experience with other projects in my riding with regard to the different schools that have been constructed. It seemed like there was always these cost overruns or cost deficiencies in how it is being handled. In this case of the Aklavik Health Centre, so far it has gone through three different project managers. It has not even got off the drawing board yet. It is not out to public tender, but this thing has been in the works for a couple of years now. Now they are telling us we aren't going to be able to get the materials in over the winter road, so we are going to have to barge it in. I see that as an extra cost that wasn't included. The costs would have been cheaper to truck the materials in all the way from wherever the materials are going to be coming from directly to Aklavik than having to truck it into Inuvik, store it in warehousing, pick it up again, put it in a barge, barge it in, take it off the barge, move it to site. You are moving the thing three times. So for me that is an unforeseen cost. Yet, the community is penalized because of someone else's mistakes or someone else's delays. These delays are going to cost more money in the long run than what's in the budget. But because of that, the community is going to be penalized because of someone else's mistakes.

I, for one, have a real problem with Public Works when it comes to them managing these type of projects where they're given the ability to take on these projects. They add their 15 percent up top -- in some cases, probably 20 or 30 percent -- for all these different engineering studies, delays in projects because of change of personnel or what not. I think it will be cheaper for this government in the long run, when we have these types of projects, to go to the private sector. When we have three different project managers handling a project that never even gets off the ground, I think there's something wrong. I would like to ask the Minister, what are you doing to review the responsibility of Public Works to oversee these type of contracts, especially the contracts that are being delayed because of administration problems within a separate department?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, of course we are working with the Department of Public Works and Services. As to the reassignment of the project managers on this particular facility, that might be a question better directed to Public Works and Services. As for the change in delivery of materials, changing the method of delivery of materials from winter road to barge delivery is not likely to increase the cost of the project. Increases that might occur because of later delivery would be offset by the lower barge transportation costs, so there is no net change in the cost of the project as a result of doing it by barge versus being trucked on the winter road. They even out. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Madam Minister. Mr. Krutko.

The Minister didn't touch on my other question about the whole area of Public Works and for them to have a project in which they have three different individuals or changing of the guard with regard to this project being handed from one person to another person to another person and not having the file concluded because of personnel problems within the department. Has the Minister looked at the possibility of privatizing this service to the private sector, so that maybe we can get a better return on the dollar we are spending compared to what service we are getting from Public Works?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in most instances, it is the Department of Public Works and Services who oversees these projects. In some unusual circumstances, there are different arrangements that are made. Again, I might suggest that if the Member has questions about Public Works and Services' capacity or ability to carry out this function on behalf of departments, perhaps that is a discussion better taken up with Public Works and Services. Certainly I can undertake to speak to Mr. Steen about the dedicated personnel to this project to ensure that it is given a priority. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Another concern, especially from the community of Aklavik and also the mayor, is that they were told that they were going to be kept in the loop on what is happening on this project. They were going to be involved all the way through the design stage, the development, and I believe they had one public meeting on it.

The community made some recommendations to the people from Public Works and Health and Social Services, but yet the community has not heard back, nor have they come back, and now they are being told that there is a delay in the project and that also they have to cut back on the different designs of the health centre. Yet the community was told right from the start that they were going to be involved in the design, what not, of the heath centre.

On one hand, we talk about empowering communities. Giving communities more input into design of what they lack in their communities. They are the ones that have to live with what the final results are.

However, when it comes to having input, people within the government seem to lose sight of ensuring that they are kept involved all the way through the process.

So I would like to ask the Minister, exactly what is her department doing to ensure that we do have involvement of community members and people from the health centres involved in the design of new facilities, because they are the ones that have to work in these facilities, in the communities, and the ones that are going to use these?

So, in the case of Aklavik, that is a concern that I have heard from my constituency and especially from the Mayor of Aklavik.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just in terms of community consultation, I just want to note that the mayor was provided with an update of the status of the revised schedule in mid-January, and partially completed design documents were received by Public Works and Services in mid-February, and these will be provided to the Hamlet of Aklavik for your information and comments.

So, apart from just that brief update on the consultation with the community, I can suggest that the community work closely with the health board to ensure that the communication between themselves and Public Works and Services is kept current. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. At this time, I would like to recognize the president of the Arctic Tourism Association, Mr. Richard Lafferty in the gallery.

- Applause

Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to, once again note as well for the record, the issue of the Stanton Hospital, which I understand, while it is physically located in Yellowknife, is a territorial facility and as a territorial board, with a member from Fort Smith on it.

It provides services to many, many, many of the people in my constituency. So I, in my capacity as a Member of this Legislature, think it is not unreasonable for me to be able to discuss facilities of that nature, especially when it relates to how they are being run.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to just shift my final questions to another area that I have some concern about it and that is the issue of, as I know it, the Carver model that governs how boards are run and the relationship they have with their CEO and staff.

From what I have heard and seen over the last number of years, this model is, at least as it seems to be working in the North, very problematic and may be, in fact, causing some of the problems that are now besetting the department and the boards.

I would like to ask the Minister if she could speak briefly to the Carver model and is that, as well, going to be put under the magnifying glass by Mr. Cuff? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mrs. Groenewegen.