Thank you, Mr. Braden. Please be seated. The Chair recognizes the honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.Point of Order

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order under section 23(h) and (i) of the Rules of the Legislative Assembly. Mr. Speaker, yesterday when we were discussing in committee of the whole and when I reviewed Hansard, I noticed on page 1229 that Ms. Lee had said and I will quote this piece, "...but it is the Minister who put this into the supplementary appropriation and the headline on Friday said $500,000 for the payout. That came out of the public document which is supp 3." First of all, Mr. Speaker, she is wrong. Supp 3 talks about $695,000 or so, not $500,000.

It goes on to say, "if it is true, as he has been saying, that he knows his obligation under this contract and that he was not to do anything that would reveal it, for him to have put it into a supplementary appropriation is a ground for questioning his conduct."

Mr. Speaker, the Member is very aware that I have a statutory obligation as Minister of Finance to put into the supp anything that is going to require additional spending. That appropriation is put in there because the Department of the Executive does not have the money to handle it.

Mr. Speaker, in this statement she is clearly imputing a motive to me and second, is questioning my integrity. Mr. Speaker, clearly, I think the rules of this House are very simple, straightforward and clearly understood. This is not allowed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. We have a point of order. Is there any debate on this point of order? To the point of order. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, to the point of order I await your decision on this point. For you to consider in your deliberation, I would request that you look into the fact that from my point of view, I believe it was a point of debate and in fact I asked a question to the Minister about whether or not there were any other occasions where personal and private separation packages were discussed in Supplementary No. 3. If the Minister would just answer that he would know it was just a back and forth question that is appropriate for the matter at hand. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Any further debate on this point of order? I will take this under advisement and report back to the House. Mr. Handley, perhaps for the record you could clarify the page number you were referring to. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I am referring to page 1229 of the unedited Hansard from yesterday.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. We have that number, page 1229. The Chair once again will ask for any further debate on this point of order. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out that as all the Members know in this House, as the Minister of Finance I have a statutory obligation to, where there is additional money to a department's appropriation, I have to put it into the supplementary appropriation. That is the only way we can operate.

The amount of money that was placed there, first of all, is $696,000 not the $500,000 that Ms. Lee is referring to. That does not come out of the supp, that does not appear in the supp document. Second, there is no other way to do it. For her to suggest that somehow I am manipulating the system I think is incredulous. I quote, "...for him to put it into a supplementary appropriation is ground for questioning his conduct." She is questioning my conduct as Minister of Finance. I have an obligation to do this. I have done what is proper. The Executive does not have the money in its regular appropriation to handle the $696,000. It had to go into here as a supp.

Mr. Speaker, clearly, Rules 23(h) and (i) which state "cannot make allegations against another Member of the House, officer, or witness or imputes false or hidden motives to another Member" have been violated in this case, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Any further debate on this point of order? No further debate. I shall reserve a decision on this matter until I have had a chance to review these relevant sections and comments that were made. The honourable Member for Range Lake, you have a point of order.

Point of Order

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a point of order also arising out of the committee of the whole debate yesterday evening. I realize that I have raised a point of order already, but there is another one that I noticed when I had a chance to review the transcript and this is the first opportunity in which I could raise this point.

Mr. Speaker, my point of order is on the same rule previously mentioned, Rule 23(h) which says "makes allegations against another Member, House officer or witness" and subsection 23 (m) which says "introduces any matter in debate that offends the practices and precedents of the Assembly."

Mr. Speaker, the offending statement is found on page 1227 of the unedited Hansard, halfway down the page.

-- Interjection

-- Laughter

Mr. Bell said "She has found the leak."

Mr. Speaker, I ask that you review the statement, because for me it is clearly a statement that a Member in this House has stated that I was somehow involved in leaking some information out of this House. I find that Mrs. Groenewegen's statement is evidence of another Member alleging misconduct by myself, and I ask for your ruling on this point. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The Chair is not clear as to who you are alleging has made these comments. Is it Mr. Bell or Mrs. Groenewegen? Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that there might be some unclarity as to who is to share the most of the misconduct if you find it to be. I appreciate that, but I will have to leave that to you to decide. The evidence that I have here is Mrs. Groenewegen said what Mr. Bell said.

I have it in print and I have to use it as evidence of what is uttered in this House. The utterance is that Mr. Bell, the honourable Member for Yellowknife South is clearly quoted here as saying, "she has found the leak." I do not want to go to the interpretation, but I read this to be that Mrs. Groenewegen has found me to be leaking information outside of this House, and she has quoted Mr. Bell as saying that.

This is clear evidence to me. It is written. Mrs. Groenewegen has repeated what Mr. Bell said. There is enough evidence here to suggest that there is one Member of this House alleging misconduct and improper conduct by another colleague. I think that this is clearly contrary to the rules of the House. It goes against the respect that we ought to have in this House. I ask for your ruling. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Ms. Lee, I am going to disallow the point of order. The Chair is really not concerned with what has been going on in the back there. There does not appear to be a point of order based on what the Chair sees here. I shall disallow this. Do we have any further points of order? Okay, then let us get on with the business of the House. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Minister responsible for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Minister for Finance, Mr. Handley.

Today, Statistics Canada released population counts for the 2001 census, including results for the Northwest Territories and our communities. In our view, the census numbers are wrong and do not accurately reflect the population of the Northwest Territories.

The census is done by the federal government every five years and provides critical information about the Northwest Territories and our communities. This information is important to our government and to communities to help design programs and services for residents of the Northwest Territories. I would like to thank all residents of the Northwest Territories for their cooperation with the census specifically and more generally with surveys that are done in our communities.

One of the purposes for which the census results are used is to help establish population levels that are a significant aspect of the formula funding arrangement between the territorial government and the federal government. However, it is important to note that these are not the numbers that will be used in our funding formula. In addition to the census population, Statistics Canada also completes studies that estimate the number of people missed by the census. This estimate of missed people and the census count is what is used to determine our funding levels.

Even though these numbers are not the final population estimates, the results released this morning from the 2001 census do cause significant concern for our government. Statistics Canada reports that, based on census counts, the Northwest Territories population declined by 5.8 percent between 1996 and 2001. This result is contrary to other indicators for the Northwest Territories. Although there was a period where some out-migration was apparent in 1997 and 1998, the increased activity related to diamond mining, in addition to natural gas activity in the Beaufort-Delta and Deh Cho areas, would seem to suggest the Northwest Territories is not a place in population decline. These indicators, along with concerns raised by the GNWT at the time of the census collection, cause me to have some serious doubts about the accuracy of the population counts from the census.

I have directed the Bureau of Statistics to request that Statistics Canada conduct a detailed review of census operations in all communities in the Northwest Territories. This review should help identify areas where this census may have had deficiencies. Further, my department will be closely monitoring Statistics Canada's work on the coverage studies to ensure that an accurate estimate of the people missed by the census is developed for use in our funding arrangements. Finally, we plan to complete our new population counts in selected communities to help assess the quality of these counts. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister Handley. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Premier tabled two revisions to the Ministerial Administrative Procedures Manual. One dealt with telephone procedures and those additions are ones that will be most welcome. The other was a revised travel policy for Ministers that will come into effect on April 1st of this year.

Mr. Speaker, the existing policy is called the home travel policy and it allows Ministers to travel to their constituency and back 32 times per year. The new policy is called non-portfolio ministerial travel and opens the door much more widely to travel. Mr. Speaker, the new policy adds eight return trips per year and no longer limits the travel to a Minister's home constituency. Forty trips per year, and that is on top of any travel paid for by their constituency budgets and on top of any travel they do for their ministerial responsibilities.

Mr. Speaker, what really concerns me is the conditions that apply to the eight additional trips, or perhaps I should characterize it as lack of conditions. These trips do not have to relate to the Minister's portfolio. They can be for any reason. The new policy tells us why, right in the first sentence, "Ministers are on duty all the time."

Mr. Speaker, any travel is therefore parliamentary or government-related because they are always on duty. Mr. Speaker, these eight new trips are clearly not just for home travel. The conditions make that fairly evident. Half may be used for a spouse or children and they do not have to include the Minister's constituency as a stop.

On top of that, Mr. Speaker, two trips can be made anywhere in Canada, or one trip with their spouse. Under this new policy, remember, no reason need be given, for a Minister is always on duty. Meanwhile, Regular Members, Mr. Speaker, many of whom are here in Yellowknife for 150 days per year and, by the way, that may be nearly as many days as some Members of Cabinet, have a very different set of rules under which to work. Between sessional and committee travel, Regular Members do not get nearly 40 trips per year, and those trips can only be between their home constituency and the place of the meeting.

Mr. Speaker, from this I draw the conclusion that even though we have a consensus system that treats all Members much more equally than most Assemblies in Canada, we clearly have some in this House who are more equal than others. Mr. Speaker, I also think the public will be concerned by the lack of conditions...

Mr. Dent, your time for your Member's statement has ended. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, colleagues. Mr. Speaker, I also think the public will be concerned by the lack of conditions that are set out for travel anywhere in Canada. A Minister will be able to take their spouse anywhere in Canada now, for no reason. I am sure none of the current Members would ever do so, but there is really nothing that is stopping this from being used to replace the old vacation travel assistance plan the government took away from all employees some years ago.

Mr. Speaker, I think we have to re-examine this policy and I will be following up on this in question period today. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to speak on an issue on the lighter side and wish participants of the 2002 Arctic Winter Games the best of luck as they travel to Iqaluit and Nuuk to take part in their activities. I would like to congratulate those who are travelling from my constituency; Ms. Theresa Ross, going as mission staff; Sam Anderson in speed skating; Karen Polakoff, the speed skating coach; Katy Smith, Inuit games; Melanie Poowotak is badminton; Darryl Day is basketball; Tamara Hansen, Inuit games; Mike Muller is the badminton coach; Shaylene Allen is cross country skiing; Jason Baxter, dog sledding; Mike Baxter, dog sledding coach; Leah Sulyma, ice hockey; Mike Gravel, ice hockey coach; Moses Ipana, ice hockey; and Pat Tingmiak in snow shoeing.

I would like to wish them all the best and hope they have memories that will remain with them for a lifetime. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, our economic prospects are in great shape with employment activity, tax revenues and investment in the Northwest Territories at record levels. We do indeed have something to celebrate and be thankful for.

We are challenged though, in terms of managing this rapid, even frantic pace of development. One of the consequences on us all, Mr. Speaker, is the pressure on our cost of living. That is my concern today and it is the concern of a lot of other Northerners. Why, oh why, Mr. Speaker, does it cost so much to fly?

We are fortunate to have our major airlines providing overall superb service to us as northern-owned enterprises competing with each other for our business. They do their part, probably more than their part, as good corporate and community citizens. They have had their share of hits in the last few months with high fuel costs, decreased passenger loads and increased security costs in this post-terrorism world.

It seems, Mr. Speaker, that competition among our two northern-owned airlines is not doing much to serve this market, at least in terms of curbing increases to air fares. The high cost of air fare remains one of our key cost drivers. It is one of the big problems people point to when they consider making the Northwest Territories their home. It is a significant barrier to realizing real growth in our tourism industry. It is one of the things we wish we could change and help make living and working up here more manageable.

Mr. Speaker, a quick survey of air fares on principal routes tells the story. Today, a full fare return flight from Yellowknife to Edmonton is $1,708.50. In 1997, five years ago, it was $1,180. That is an increase, in five years, of 70 percent. If we go back 10 years, Mr. Speaker, the cost was $830. That is over 100 percent increase in 10 years.

Let us compare that to the consumer price index for Yellowknife. Since 1995, on all goods and services, Mr. Speaker, 6.5 percent. Over a 10-year period, 11 percent. I understand economies of scale and high overhead costs as well as anyone, Mr. Speaker, but we are so far off the dial that it defies logic.

Mr. Speaker, I am told this has driven one of the North's diamond mines to subsidize their own program. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, colleagues. As I said, this increase in air fares has driven one of the North's diamond mines to subsidize their own program. It is limited to their own employees and contractors, but this system gets their people from Yellowknife to Edmonton and back for $300. Who can blame them, Mr. Speaker, when you compare $300 to $1,700?

Our complacency in not addressing high air costs is hurting us, Mr. Speaker. We lose the chance to capture a few more permanent citizens and satisfy tourists. What do we need to do in terms of innovation, creativity, maybe even some old-fashion risk taking as airlines, as governments, perhaps even as passengers, to help reduce air fares? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to speak on a problem that has come up several times in this House, the new initiative that is in place to harmonize income support and housing. Mr. Speaker, I had an opportunity to go home this weekend and I think the majority of the concerns I heard were raised around this subject from people who are on income support and our elders.

Many of our elders were left with the impression that they were told they would be better off in public housing than if they had their own place. They would not have to take care of their rent, their power and there would be no rent to pay. Mr. Speaker, through this harmonization program, a couple of years after many elders moved into public housing they are now being told that the rules are changing, that they will have to pay, though right now they do not. The rent will be based on anything over $500.

Mr. Speaker, many of our seniors and elders in our communities have earned their pensions. They have earned their way, they have paid their way, they paid their taxes and they have lived to a point in time where we should allow them to enjoy their pensions and the remaining time that they have with us.

What do we do here? Implement a regime that I see as just another form of a claw back to take money away from our seniors and people in need in our communities. Mr. Speaker, another area of concern was with regard to the initiative that we have under income support. If you are on income support and you find employment, you cannot get back on income support for two months after you apply. You have to wait two months until you can be reassessed and back on.

With seasonal employment in the Northwest Territories, where the majority of the work takes place in the summer or in the winter between December and March, those are the two periods of time that you will have to work. If you received employment in those two times of the year, you will not be able to get back on income support for four months out of that year, which means you will have to pay for the rent based on that notion for four months of the year because you will not be classified as an income support client.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask this government to seriously consider what this harmonization program is really going to do to people in our communities, our elders and people who presently are on income support.

Mr. Krutko, your time for your Member's statement has ended. Mr. Krutko.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think it is also important that we look at the economics of our communities, the economic opportunities that arrive in our small communities. There is no real economic base in a lot of our communities. Those people who have jobs in our communities basically have jobs either with government or with people in the private sector where there are very few of those jobs to go around. You can probably look at the number of people we have in our communities with good paying jobs, the majority of them are government employees.

There is a large portion of our population who have a hard time accessing work in our communities where we do not have a strong economic base. If anything, this government should look at developing our economic base in our communities so that people can have jobs that are meaningful, not just part-time work here and there. Mr. Speaker, I will be asking the Minister responsible for the harmonization program questions on this matter. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah.

Mahsi, Mr. Nitah. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River North, Mr. Delorey.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to address an issue that affects a large number of my constituents, that being our fishermen. Mr. Speaker, for many decades fishermen have eked out a living for themselves on Great Slave Lake. Fishing is an honourable, traditional lifestyle for a large number of our residents. Mr. Speaker, commercial fishing in the Northwest Territories is a longstanding, viable industry and I believe that our government should firmly support our fishermen.

Mr. Speaker, our fishermen are strong contributors to our northern economy. I am a little disillusioned when I do some research and discover certain areas where I believe that fishermen have been under-funded or not funded in the same manner as other harvesters, that being hunters and trappers.

I want to make it perfectly clear, Mr. Speaker, that I do support our government's effort in providing financial support to trappers. I would like to see a more equitable funding arrangement for fishermen in the same manner as trappers. Mr. Speaker, in my research I discovered that in November of 2000 the former Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development stated in this House that in the year 2000, RWED spent $2.5 million in support of harvesters. Of this funding, the Minister stated that roughly $1.8 million went directly to trappers.

Documents recently supplied to me by RWED, Mr. Speaker, with regard to harvesters' contributions for the years 2000, 2001 and 2002 indicate that $1,704,000 is earmarked for the hunters and trappers program and only $390,000 has been allocated to fishermen's programs.

Mr. Speaker, my reaction to this is one of concern. I did note, Mr. Speaker, that of the current RWED funding to hunters and trappers there are contributions to disaster compensation for hunters and trappers. In addition, RWED pays the WCB premiums and claim costs for hunters and trappers if they are injured while hunting or trapping. Mr. Speaker, neither of these programs are provided for fishermen. The apparent inequities are very disconcerting to fishermen.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that the NWT Fishermen's Federation will be hosting a two-day conference May 10th and 11th in Hay River. Mr. Speaker, I believe that it is imperative for our government to lead by example and to that end I strongly encourage the Minister of RWED to consider attending this very worthwhile conference. At the appropriate time, I will have further questions for the Minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the most important accomplishments in one's life is that of being able to provide a home for our families. Mr. Speaker, our home is where we nurture our children, where we provide guidance to them as they grow, a place that provides protection, a place that helps strengthen family values and a place that gives hope.

Mr. Speaker, I have received numerous concerns from a number of my constituents in Fort Providence who have either been evicted, are about to be evicted or notified that they will be evicted from public housing. The reasons for eviction vary from rental arrears to problem tenants.

Mr. Speaker, what is happening to these people is unacceptable and is bordering on cultural discrimination. Mr. Speaker, all these people being evicted are Dene or Metis. These people make Fort Providence their home. This is where their families have lived for many generations. They are not about to move outside the community to find alternate housing. They are being forced to become a homeless statistic.

Mr. Speaker, I have to raise the question, what option do these people have upon being evicted from public housing? Is it to move in with family members and add to the overcrowding that already exists, or is it to put them out on the streets in the dead of winter?

Mr. Speaker, I find this matter to be very serious as it affects not only the life of the tenant who has signed an agreement with the NWT Housing Corporation, but each family member in the whole community. I find this even more appalling when part of the NWT Housing Corporation's mandate is to assist communities to assume the role of providing housing to residents of the Northwest Territories and not that of throwing people out on the street.

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, it is also the responsibility of the NWT Housing Corporation to ensure aboriginal satisfaction that traditional knowledge and values are respected in the corporation decision making process. This, Mr. Speaker, does not appear to be a real consideration for the NWT Housing Corporation, when we know that many of these aboriginal people who are being evicted for non-payment of rent take the position that treaties with Canada give them the right to a home, that being a small benefit for the lands and resources that have been wrongly expropriated by Canada. Now, Mr. Speaker, we as a government want to expropriate their homes as well.

Mr. McLeod, your time for your Member's statement is ended. Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Speaker, I seek consent to conclude my statement.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Mr. McLeod, you may conclude.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the NWT Housing Corporation has developed a policy that directs them to provide counselling services to the tenants. This counselling includes issues dealing with all aspects of being a tenant. I understand this counselling service is provided on a very limited basis, if at all.

Mr. Speaker, to be fair to the housing staff in the communities I recognize the work load they are under and influence that family members can have on those administering public housing in the communities, but more importantly I recognize the negative impact and emotional trauma eviction has on those tenants and their families when they are faced with eviction or are evicted.

Mr. Speaker, if problems exist I would ask that the NWT Housing Corporation, through an independent review, visit communities like Fort Providence and identify housing problems that exist in the community to determine and identify solutions that are beneficial to the tenants and to this government. Mr. Speaker, what we need is more housing in the communities and not more evictions. This is supported by the 2000 housing survey conducted by the NWT Housing Corporation that confirms that Fort Providence has 101 or 40 percent of households in core need.

Mr. Speaker, now that we are responsible for social housing should we not be using legislation and policies developed from that legislation to better serve the people who comprise our small aboriginal communities and not compound the problems faced by people in those communities? Mr. Speaker, I will have questions for the Minister later on. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 3, Members' statements. Honourable Members I would just like to draw your attention to the rules on Members' statements, that they are on one subject for two-and-a-half minutes. Unanimous consent is sometimes sought to conclude a statement, not to continue for an additional two-and-a-half minutes. It takes away time from other honourable Members who wish to make their important statements as well. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight once again the issue of a lack of funding in the legal aid program. Mr. Speaker, I asked questions in this regard to the Minister of Justice yesterday and I must say that the answers the Minister gave leave a lot to be desired.

Mr. Speaker, if the Minister would only take a moment to inquire, he would learn that there is a huge backlog, more than 100 people, waiting for financial assistance in order to obtain legal assistance. Many of these people, Mr. Speaker, are in need of legal assistance desperately in order to obtain spousal and child support payments. They have to wait for months to get into court and months more to have their cases heard and judged on.

Mr. Speaker, I know from previous experience that most of these applicants get no more than two or three hours of legal service approved at each time. This is especially disconcerting given the fact that the government and the Legislature seem to have no problem spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees in all sorts of cases when it comes to our own rights, our own reputation and our own integrity. I know that we have a much larger limit than two or three hours of legal service when our own jeopardy is in question.

Mr. Speaker, those who need the help of legal assistance for their livelihood seem to get very, very little attention. It is time, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Justice stands up for those who really need to fight for them, and I ask the Minister to put more attention and energy into obtaining more money and resources from his Cabinet colleagues for our legal aid program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My Member's statement today comes on the heels of Stats Canada information released showing that our population count, by their estimates, is down in the Northwest Territories by almost six percent. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, this is a concern to all of us in this House and should be a concern to all our constituents, given that this obviously means, if they are correct, we will see a reduction in transfer payments which will mean less money for programs and services for all residents of the Northwest Territories.

I did ask questions of the Minister of Finance a short time ago in relation to our raised projections for liquor tax and I had questions about whether it meant that we had higher employment rates in the Northwest Territories and people had more disposable income, or if in fact it meant that more people had moved to the Northwest Territories. He did speculate on this that he believed that likely it was in fact both, and in quoting him, Mr. Speaker, he said that there are more people here, whether they are staying here full time or just on work assignments here.

I think that raises another issue, Mr. Speaker. I think maybe it is time for us to take look at the fly-in/fly-out work force. It is possible that we have a larger problem than we had first estimated. I know the Minister of Finance has directed his Bureau of Statistics to conduct a detailed review of census operations in all communities to, in fact, determine if some mistakes were made. I think that is a good idea, but I think it also makes sense for him to have a look and set out a process to analyze whether in fact we do have people working here, but not making this their primary residence.

I think he could analyze the number of tax filers in the Northwest Territories over the last few years to see if, in fact, it would bear out the kinds of trends that the Bureau of Statistics is showing. I hope the Minister will in fact take that up and I will have questions for him further to this Member's statement. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Antoine. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to rise today to congratulate the Minister responsible for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development on the new program he announced to encourage youth to become involved in entrepreneurial activities. Mr. Speaker, I relate to this very much because I believe that many of our youth do have a natural entrepreneurial spirit. I remember as a child playing Monopoly and thinking it was just the greatest thing in the world and it was not long until that translated into playing Monopoly in real life, starting at a very young age. I think at 20 years of age I started buying real estate.

I just think we need to recognize our youth and create the opportunities that they need to display this entrepreneurial spirit and get started in small ways. It may not seem like a lot of money having been devoted here at $50,000 but it is amazing, through hard work and sweat equity and pouring whatever earnings they do have back into their businesses how these small beginnings and these seed amounts can actually turn into some very valuable and substantive businesses which contribute to the northern economy.

I would just like to thank the Minister for his foresight in this particular initiative and encourage young people to become aware of this and access this program. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Premier, Mr. Kakfwi.

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Dent on February 25, 2002, regarding the percentage of production that BHP Billiton now provides to diamond polishing firms in the Northwest Territories.

BHP Billiton is not obliged by any legislation or agreement to provide a percentage of production to diamond polishing firms in the Northwest Territories. However, BHP Billiton has indicated they will provide up to 10 percent of diamond rough production value for local manufacturing.

The Ekati mine production for 2001 equalled $527 million US. This converts to approximately $850 million Canadian. In 2001 the full allocation available to the three territorial diamond manufacturers was valued at approximately $85 million dollars Canadian, or 10 percent of Ekati's production.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Premier, Mr. Kakfwi.

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Dent on March 4, 2002, with respect to the distinction between the affirmative action policy and employment equity.

The Government of the Northwest Territories is committed to moving from an affirmative action policy to an employment equity approach. While both affirmative action and employment equity have an end goal of attaining a representative public service, there is a significant difference in the two approaches.

Under affirmative action hiring priority is given to those covered under the policy; indigenous aboriginal people, indigenous non-aboriginal people, disabled people and, for non-traditional and management positions, women. The hiring priority is applied to all competitions regardless of the current representation levels in the region, department or occupation.

Employment equity is based on the philosophy that employers will hire a representative work force because it makes good business and operational sense to do so. This approach will apply not just to hiring, but also to the development and promotion of individuals within the public service. Employment equity consists of specific efforts directed at specific groups of individuals or occupations. This will include programs like succession planning and graduate employment. Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are three people I would like to introduce in the gallery, Mr. Speaker. Genevieve Harvey, Maryse Perraud and Carmen Roberge. They are with the language services of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Welcome. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Premier and it relates to the Ministerial Administrative Procedure Manual and the policy on ministerial travel that he tabled yesterday. The new policy proposes that eight return trips per year will be added and the policy is no longer limited to home travel. Can the Premier advise this House why the government felt it necessary to change the policy?

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Premier, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The new administrative procedures for ministerial travel have been based on the model used by Members of Parliament. We felt that would provide flexibility, fairness and consistency. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier advises we are following the federal policy, but he does not tell me why it is necessary to follow it here in the Northwest Territories. What was lacking in the existing policy that this policy adds that is essential?

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Premier, Mr. Kakfwi.

Mr. Speaker, the staff drafted the revisions and are responsible for applying and adhering to the procedures and are probably the best people to ask the questions of. I am not an expert in these policies. I have a sense that Members will only get frustrated with the answers I will give.

I can tell you that these were recommended by our staff to ensure that the Ministers can travel, be accountable and have the same flexibility that other Members of Cabinet across this country have and what is allowed for federal Ministers will be used.

There were older procedures or policies. That is exactly my point. I do not know what the terms are, but they are technical terms and it is important to stick to them. I would suggest, not to waste a lot of time, that the Members see that this is moved into committee of the whole so that appropriate staff can help address this. We do not need to get all worked up about it.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Premier is right, I am getting frustrated by the answer. The Premier seems to say that staff advised that this is the way to do things. It is a political decision. The politicians are the ones who have adopted this policy. I want to know why the politicians felt it was necessary to tell their staff to do this.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Premier, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are a number of ways we can travel as Ministers. There is home travel and that has certain guidelines to it. We have moved from home travel to what we call non-portfolio travel that basically provides greater flexibility and accountability within the existing resources and establishes clear guidelines for the type of travel that was not addressed by current procedure. You can tell I am reading from briefing notes. If it is not clear, I cannot take total responsibility for it unless I am mumbling some of these words.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Premier has now used accountability twice in response to questions that I have raised. This policy, as I read it, contains no stipulation that the Ministers have to account for their trips. How does this policy increase accountability?

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Premier, Mr. Kakfwi.

Mr. Speaker, the Ministers are allowed travel, duty and home travel. We are trying to provide flexibility so these will continue but also to allow for non-portfolio travel and to allow for spouses and designated people to attend functions with Ministers. These are understood to be requiring approval. Ministers have always travelled with the concurrence of their colleagues to ensure that we attend to important business and that we are here as well to take care of the business.

We cover for each other, we travel for each other and we are also asked to attend functions that are sometimes outside of our portfolio, but are not within existing guidelines. I think for the Arctic Winter Games, Aboriginal Achievement Awards, there is a range of events that require, in our judgment, the presence of the Government of the Northwest Territories. It is fitting that spouses or companions, whatever you want to call them, are attending these functions, because sometimes they take on the nature of social functions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to follow up with questions to the issue I raised in my Member's statement. It is with regard to evictions in my riding. Over the last little while we have had six families evicted. It is my understanding that there are 12 more who are in serious trouble and are targeted for evictions in April. Down the road we are looking at an additional 30. We have roughly 50 people who may be evicted in the next while in Fort Providence.

I wanted to ask the Minister if he could outline for me what the procedures for evictions are and more specifically, if there is any policy that requires the LHO to notify the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation that they will be evicting someone in the winter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, there is a procedure. There are a number of reasons why an individual would be evicted. Once the eviction notice is given, because of some legalities that may be provided to the rental officer, which is a funded position by the Department of Justice, so we are at an arm's length of that officer, once it goes into the legal realm it is out of our hands. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had asked the Minister if he would indicate if there was anything in the procedures regarding notice to the regional office or the head office for winter evictions. I will ask a question again under evictions.

It is my understanding that there is a policy that the Housing Corporation has that directs them to provide counselling services to the tenants who are in trouble, including facing eviction and I have talked to most of the people who have been evicted and some who are on the verge of being evicted and I am not hearing that anyone has been counselled in terms of how to deal with this issue.

I would like to ask the Minister, can he tell me if the policy is being uniformly applied? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have a funded position in all of the LHOs, it is called the tenant relations officer who performs those functions. We expect the tenant relations officer to be able to enter into a home to provide counselling, mentorship and also information to those who are adversely affected and those who may be inadvertently evicted. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is very difficult for me to understand how the tenant relations officers can provide counselling when none of them have been trained and with their workload they really do not have the time to do any meaningful consultation.

I would like to ask the Minister, have there been any independent reviews completed on the local housing authorities?

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the year 2001-2002 we have conducted six LHO management and operations audits. We will continue to audit other LHOs to determine if an adequate level of service is being provided to those LHOs and also to the tenants. Financial counselling is one of the key areas that we need to concentrate on. We will continue to work to perform that function. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Final supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister, will he commit to doing independent reviews on all the communities in the North, including Fort Providence, to ensure that legislation and policies are followed when it comes to evictions? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am more than prepared to provide that to the Member as well as to other Members of the House. I am also prepared to revisit those communities so that we can set some specific guidelines to prevent future evictions in mid-winter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I will just take this time to remind the honourable Members on both sides of the House of the necessity for brevity in their questions and responses. The Chair has a full list of Members wishing to ask important questions, so please, the Speaker will apply the rules relatively strictly today. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister responsible for Housing related to my Member's statement in two general areas. One is dealing with seniors who are on a pension or fixed income. In the past they did not have to pay any rent, but they will have to in this new harmonization program. Also, people who are taken off income support have to wait two months before they can get back on.

I would like to ask the Minister, what type of consultation is taking place with our elders and people on income support who will find themselves in a situation where they are laid off?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I can only respond in the context of the role the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation plays in the new rent scale. I think part of that, Mr. Speaker, and if I may have your indulgence here in my timely response, is the harmonization chronology which dates back to 1995 and this is as current as February of this year.

It outlines a number of steps taken to address and readdress how it is going to impact not only the seniors but other public housing clients. I am under the understanding that this has received universal support from the Members of this House through a number of processes.

I see that when we do want to communicate back to those who are affected, we do have a communication plan in effect today. That is again another portion of this documentation that is fully supported by this House from what I can recollect. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the Minister for not answering my question. Mr. Speaker, it is clear from my question, what are we doing to consult with our elders and people in our communities on the effect this harmonization program will have on people on income support and our seniors who are on a fixed pension?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The LHOs were indentured to go to each individual senior to discuss with them the impacts and from the small communities I was made aware that very few, if any elders, will be impacted with any formal rent increases.

For those who may, and I emphasis may, we have other options that we wanted to discuss with them further. That is the intent of trying to defer the implementation of the harmonization policy until October 1, 2002.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with our seniors, a lot of our seniors are a valuable resource for information and they do play an active role in the political system in our communities. A lot of our seniors are involved in elected councils, elders councils, in helping the school with our language programs. Any extra revenues that our elders receive through those programs will be calculated as income.

With what the Minister is saying, I think they are very much in jeopardy if they make anything over $500. The rent will definitely be increased. Right now they do not pay any rent. I would like to ask the Minister, how much consultation has taken place with individual elders, not strictly with LHOs? Have you spoken to elders in the communities?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the Member is asking me as the Minister in my travels, I do communicate very extensively with the elders. As a matter of fact, they are one of the key groups that I recognize as being very instrumental. Yes, we are cognizant of the fact that some will be impacted and thus we feel we do have some options available to them. It is just a matter of being able to sit down and delve further to determine what level of service we can provide. I cannot prematurely determine that at this point. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, from the Minister's comments, I would like to make it clear that all elders that are presently in our Housing Corporation units will be impacted, not some. Every one of them will be impacted by this change. So, is that true?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If we are using the common income exemption policy, yes, there will be some rent increases, but it varies from community to community, income to income. There will be, I will be honest with you, there will be some impact. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, in my question I addressed the issue of the high cost of air fares in the Northwest Territories. Air travel is for most of us, on most occasions, not an option. It is an essential service. I want to pursue this in questions to the Minister responsible for Transportation.

My question is, what avenues does our government have to work with air carriers and with other support networks in the aviation business to address the high cost of air fares? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.