This is page numbers 1255 - 1298 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Members Present

Honourable Roger Allen, Honourable Jim Antoine, Mr. Bell, Mr. Braden, Mr. Delorey, Mr. Dent, Mrs. Groenewegen, Honourable Joe Handley, Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Krutko, Mr. Lafferty, Ms. Lee, Mr. McLeod, Honourable Michael Miltenberger, Mr. Nitah, Honourable Jake Ootes, Mr. Roland, Honourable Vince Steen, Honourable Tony Whitford

---Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 1255

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Ootes.

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Speaker, on October 3rd, the Honourable Jane Stewart announced, in conjunction with the Honourable Ethel Blondin-Andrew, a new aboriginal skills and employment partnership program.

This $85 million, five-year program is aimed at securing and increasing sustainable aboriginal participation in large economic developments across Canada. These training programs can range from basic literacy skills and academic upgrading, to job specific programming.

Funding proposals must set out a comprehensive training-to-employment plan for aboriginal people that links skill development to specific job opportunities.

This is welcome news for aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories, Mr. Speaker. As you are well aware, residents in the North need to move beyond the entry-level positions. I know that programs such as this one will assist us in making this move. By assisting aboriginal people to receive the training and skills they require, we know we are setting the stage for a better future for all Northerners.

The NWT economy, fuelled by extraordinary levels of mining and oil and gas activity, offers a remarkable number of opportunities for well-trained, skilled people. So many opportunities are available that, at the current time, we are experiencing difficulty meeting labour demand. We need to ensure that our northern population is trained and ready to meet this demand.

Mr. Speaker, while this program is national in scope, I am confident that a great deal of the impetus for it came from several years of intense effort by our government, in cooperation with our partners, to have federal dollars invested in the North for resource development.

This government has, over the past two years, been working on the development of two specific strategies. Mr. Speaker, the NWT industrial mining skills strategy and the oil and gas industrial skills strategy are expected to total approximately $20 million in new funding. Although the federal government has seen previous copies of these proposals, they must be resubmitted to meet the new guidelines. We will continue to work in conjunction with our partners -- industry, federal

government, aboriginal organizations and the Aboriginal Summit -- while finalizing these documents.

This new funding announcement speaks directly to these types of proposals, Mr. Speaker, and will complement the ongoing industry, GNWT and aboriginal investments currently taking place.

While the total amount of $85 million is allocated across Canada, we are confident that, given the level of activity and the excellent work done to date, a large portion of these dollars will be invested here in the NWT.

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the Minister of Human Resources Development Canada and our MP, Ethel Blondin-Andrew, for the support they are demonstrating in our ongoing effort to ensure that the northern economy maximizes northern employment, one of the primary goals of our government.

As well, I also compliment and congratulate industry, aboriginal partners and the Aboriginal Summit for coming together and working collaboratively to ensure we are ready to now take advantage of this opportunity.

Mr. Speaker, while there remain a number of administrative details to iron out, it is important that we continue to work cooperatively with our partners and keep in mind the main goal of increasing employment for aboriginal Northerners. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Minister Ootes. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the week of October 19th to 25th is National Foster Family Week. I would like to take a moment to look ahead to that week to recognize the valuable contribution that foster families make to our communities.

Foster families open their homes to care for children in need. They have a very challenging and demanding role. It is encouraging to see that so many people in our territory have offered to care for children. There are almost 200 foster homes in the NWT that give children a caring, supportive home environment that is vital to their healthy development.

Foster parents share a common passion to protect and nurture children. They offer children a safe home environment while also supporting their interaction with their birth families. They work as members of a team with the social workers in their communities to meet individual educational, medical and developmental needs.

Mr. Speaker, the children in foster care range in age from infants to teenagers. They include children from every part of our territory. Our foster families have welcomed these children into their homes, and should be applauded for the work they do.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to recognize the Foster Family Coalition of the NWT. This organization has been in place for over a year to strengthen the network of foster families and the services they provide. It is an important resource for foster parents, to help them understand that they are not alone and that there are others who can support them through difficult times.

I would like to take this opportunity to call on families to become foster families, and I ask the Members of this House to join me in applauding the efforts of those who have taken up this service throughout the NWT. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Steen.

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to inform Members of this Assembly about the Northwest Territories' search and rescue prevention strategy.

The strategy was developed by the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs through a two-year consultation process involving community leaders, territorial search and rescue authorities and search and rescue organizations in each of the Northwest Territories' five regions.

This work was supported by the federal government through the new initiatives fund, a national cost-sharing program for search and rescue.

The Northwest Territories search and rescue prevention strategy is based upon a framework developed at the national level. This framework came about because the various federal agencies with responsibilities in the area of search and rescue saw the need to address prevention. They understood that, while it is important to develop a capacity to respond to search and rescue incidents, it is also important to try and prevent such situations from happening.

The Northwest Territories search and rescue prevention strategy is the most appropriate means of reducing the North's high number of reports of missing or stranded persons not only because of the focus on prevention, but also because it is the result of extensive community consultations. The strategy includes a consolidation of approximately 150 recommendations from these consultations.

This consultation process ensured that the final strategy is a made-in-the-North plan based upon the realities of northern conditions. It also ensured that the strategy contains realistic, useful recommendations for reducing the number and severity of search and rescue incidents in the Northwest Territories.

Northwest Territories search and rescue authorities will need to work with communities and all northern stakeholders to effectively implement the recommendations from this strategy. The Department of Municipal and Community Affairs looks forward to working with all interested parties to make this happen. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Minister Steen. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment today on recent announcements made by the Government of Canada to support high speed Internet services for remote northern communities.

The announcement of $155 million available under a national satellite initiative is welcome news for the Northwest Territories, as 16 of our 33 communities rely on satellite service. This announcement demonstrates that the Government of Canada is listening to our concerns and are working to address the needs for infrastructure, in this case technology infrastructure and satellite capacity.

We have been working with the Government of Canada and the Communications Research Centre in Ottawa to find creative ways to address the high cost of delivering service to residents across the territory, especially in satellite-served communities where the infrastructure and the ongoing cost of satellite space is high. Earlier this year we received some public benefit satellite capacity from Industry Canada and deployed it to schools, libraries and Aurora College campuses and learning centres.

I believe our ongoing work in educating Ottawa about the challenges we face and the missed opportunities resulting from lack of affordable, high-speed service in all communities is helping to spur development of federal programs to address our needs in this area.

Mr. Speaker, although we do not have any specific details of this program, we are pleased to see that it could address both infrastructure and satellite capacity. We in the Northwest Territories know that it is not always possible to take advantage of new opportunity if infrastructure is limited and it is difficult to move forward if the costs are excessive.

We will be encouraging the federal government to provide us with program details as soon as possible. We expect the Northwest Territories groups participating in the broadband for rural and northern development, or BRAND, program will be equally interested in this new program as it is intended to complement the $105 million announced earlier for BRAND.

Mr. Speaker, investments in community infrastructure are needed in the Northwest Territories. We look forward to hearing more about the opportunities the national satellite initiative offers for the NWT. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Steen.

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, October 5 to 11, 2003, is National Fire Prevention Week, so this is a fitting time to announce the recipients of this year's Northwest Territories Fire Service Merit Awards program.

In 2002, I established the Fire Service Merit Awards, a new program to recognize the contribution of individual firefighters and fire departments in the Northwest Territories.

A special inaugural ceremony was held to announce the 2002 winners during Fire Prevention Week. Members of the Legislative Assembly were invited to attend this ceremony at the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre to help recognize these special contributors to the fire service.

In this second year of the program, the department once again received nominations to recognize the special contribution of individual firefighters. Individual nominations are assessed by a panel of local and territorial fire service officials, against a set of established criteria. These nominations have now been assessed and I am pleased to announce the 2003 winners at this time.

The individual Fire Service Merit Award recipients for 2003 are:

  • • Al Kuyten of the Norman Wells Fire Department
  • • Robert Ansdell of the Tsiigehtchic Fire Department

Mr. Ansdell has also been chosen as the recipient of the 2003 Territorial Fire Service Merit Award.

The department also received nominations for the Community Fire Service Merit Award. This award is presented to recognize the efforts of the fire department and the entire community in improving the local fire protection system.

The assessment process to determine the community merit award winner has now been completed and I am pleased to announce that the 2003 Community Fire Service Merit Award goes to the City of Yellowknife Fire Division.

Mr. Speaker, ceremonies to recognize the winners will be held in their home communities in the near future. I would ask all Members of the Legislative Assembly to please join me in congratulating the two recipients of the individual awards and the City of Yellowknife Fire Division. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Colleagues, I would like to draw your attention to the presence in the visitors' gallery of Cathy Bentley of the Department of Executive, intergovernmental relations, and with her is Frank Stendardo with the Privy Council in Ottawa's office. Welcome to the House.

---Applause

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Chief Sunrise Education Centre Funding
Item 3: Members' Statements

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Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Chief Sunrise Education Centre on Hay River Reserve has been experiencing a shortage of classroom space for many years now and this year is scheduled to receive some long overdue renovations spread out over the next couple of years. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment has provided $600,000 for the project and the K'atlodeeche First Nation has committed another $200,000 to ensure that the renovations meet the immediate needs of the community.

Mr. Speaker, I have problems with this arrangement on a couple of different levels. Number one, I do not believe a first nation should be required to contribute funds to pay for the construction or renovation of an educational facility. Education is a right guaranteed under the treaty. It logically follows that adequate schools are an obligation that falls out of the treaty as a right. So why is the K'atlodeeche First Nation having to come up with $200,000 of their own money? They're taking money out of businesses in the community and that is critical. They're doing it because they see a need in the community and I applaud the leadership of the Hay River Reserve for taking this step and thinking about the future generations, but must question whether the department has the same commitment to the children and whether they respect or understand treaty obligations.

The other problem I have with this arrangement is the criteria that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment uses to determine whether a school is overcrowded or not and whether it requires expansion. According to this formula, the department classifies Chief Sunrise Education Centre as underutilized. This is despite such obvious signs of overcrowding as classes being taught in non-program spaces such as the library, the kitchen, the industrial arts room, the staff room and the gym foyer. I'm aware that the language instructor moves her supplies from classroom to classroom in a shopping cart, like a sort of door-to-door salesman.

Mr. Speaker, right now we have no room in that school for the three cultural instructors who deliver the on the land program, language program and arts and crafts program to the students. I'm aware that there's 34 students aged four years old who are enrolled in the Aboriginal Head Start program and this program is...Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? Mr. McLeod, you have unanimous consent to conclude your statement.

Chief Sunrise Education Centre Funding
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Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, colleagues. Mr. Speaker, I'm aware that there are 34 students three to four years old who are enrolled in the Aboriginal Head Start program. This program has proven to increase dramatically the chances of aboriginal students doing well in school. I'm also aware that the centre is offering classes in the evenings and weekends to accommodate those part-time students who cannot access programs during the day because of the overcrowding.

It is simple, Mr. Speaker. The department's criteria for program space does not meet the needs of smaller communities. It might work in Yellowknife, but it does not work for the residents of the Hay River Reserve.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that other communities, such as the Yellowknives First Nation, have advanced funds to the department for renovations or construction of schools with the understanding that they would be reimbursed by the government in subsequent years' appropriation. Mr. Speaker, I will have questions for the Minister as to why the K'atlodeeche First Nation was not given the same consideration. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River North, Mr. Delorey.

Rise In Crime Rates In Hay River
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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I rise to address an issue that affects the entire community of Hay River. That being, the rise in personal and property crimes in our community.

Mr. Speaker, from January to August of 2002 there were 93 crimes committed against persons and for the same period this year there were 159. The mischief calls are up from 169 occurrences last year to 245 this year. The disturbances calls are up from 30 in 2002 to 54 this year. I could go on and on with statistics, Mr. Speaker, but trust me, there is an urgent, growing problem in Hay River around the whole area of crime prevention.

Let me be perfectly clear, Mr. Speaker. Hay River is not a bad place to live. I firmly believe Hay River is the best place to live in the NWT and I have made it my home for the last 33 years. Mr. Speaker, I do, however, wish to illustrate that the residents of Hay River are concerned and they are more than willing to be proactive in order to insure the safety and security of our community.

Mr. Speaker, on September 15th there was a community hall meeting held in Hay River to discuss crime prevention and enforcement and, above all, to raise awareness. I was encouraged to see a full house at this meeting, Mr. Speaker. The 75 people in attendance were very vocal about the rising incidents of crime in Hay River.

Mr. Speaker, I fully support and commend the RCMP detachment in Hay River for the work that they do 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year to protect the residents of Hay River. The RCMP officers are doing everything they can with the limited resources they are provided with.

Mr. Speaker, we currently have eight RCMP members stationed in Hay River. At one point several years ago, I believe we had approximately 18 members in Hay River. I don't know what changed, but I don't believe the demographics or level of crime activity did.

Mr. Speaker, along with the advent of development comes some stark realities, one being the rise in social problems - alcohol and drug abuse chief among these. Mr. Speaker, as a result of the town hall meeting I am very encouraged that the idea for a citizen's coalition has come about. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Rise In Crime Rates In Hay River
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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? Mr. Delorey, you have unanimous consent to conclude your statement.

Rise In Crime Rates In Hay River
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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, colleagues. This citizen's coalition will be spear-headed by Town Councillor Robert Bouchard, a constituent of mine. The coalition intends to work hand in hand with the RCMP to combat crime in Hay River. Mr. Speaker, I am extremely proud of the efforts of the residents of Hay River in working together to prevent crime and I look forward to working with them to achieve this goal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Rise In Crime Rates In Hay River
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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah.

Funding Allocations For Schools
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on Friday of last week I went to Deninu School to celebrate the graduation of Ms. Amy Mersch. Amy Mersch was the only graduate for the Class of 2003. I met with the local education authority afterwards, along with the deputy minister of Education, Culture and Employment, where we discussed formula financing that supports grade extension. The local authority and I feel strongly that we have to revisit the formula financing agreements with the local education authority to realize more graduates coming out of our schools. Every year, the formula financing agreement is visited with each school, but if it's not negotiated then the true cost of running a school will never be identified and more graduates coming out of the schools will never be realized.

I'll be asking the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment if the department is willing to enter into negotiations with local education authorities of all schools in the Northwest Territories to determine what it really costs to run the schools instead of the local education authority continually fighting for dollars to run the programs and services. Especially in those schools that should be accepting grade extensions. Since Fort Resolution accepted the grade extensions in the schools, we've been seeing more graduates coming out of that school, but the community and the local education authority leaders feel that without more resources and targeted programs and services that these programs could be a lot more successful and we'll see a lot more educated people coming out of the Northwest Territories. I totally agree with that, Mr. Speaker.

I'll be having questions for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment at the appropriate time. Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Funding Allocations For Schools
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the recent announcement about the closure of underground operations at Con Mine reminds us of the need to clean up the lands around mining operations when they close. With the closure of Con we are fortunate to be dealing with a company that is not bankrupt and has the opportunity to do the right thing for the environment on the closure of the mine. I expect the cleanup will be undertaken responsibly and move forward at a reasonable pace.

Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the environmental cleanup of Giant appears likely to hang over our heads for years to come.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Years.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

While the Giant cleanup is a federal government responsibility, our government needs to get more actively involved in pressuring the federal government to move quickly. This government should have already pressed the federal government to get started on the cleanup.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Already.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

The failure to do that is made worse because we had an opportunity. We had a Prime Minister and a Minister of DIAND who appeared willing to work with us. There is a three-year program with millions of dollars available specifically for the cleanup of environmental disasters like Giant. But with the federal leadership changing and program funding running out, we may be left with nothing but the arsenic for a long, long time.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Long time.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, the arsenic management alternatives for Giant that were presented by the Giant remediation team are not perfect solutions, but they offer us choices using today's best technology to ensure that the underground arsenic trioxide dust does not further contaminate our environment.

Mr. Speaker, all of the Yellowknife MLAs have been very concerned about the issue of the arsenic at Giant for a long time. Four of us have been lobbying the Minister of Northern Affairs to start the work. But the GNWT has been dragging its feet and are responsible for slowing the cleanup down.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Shame.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Bell, Mr. Braden, Ms. Lee and I recommended to Minister Nault that the federal government begin implementing the underground block freezing process as the best alternative we have available to us now. It is the least dangerous to workers and significantly reduces the danger of environmental contamination to our community and other communities on the Mackenzie watershed.

Mr. Speaker, after we made our presentation, the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development wrote to Minister Nault rejecting that recommendation and instead asked that more time and money be spent, believe it or not, studying another option -- deep disposal.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Shame.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, the deep disposal option suggested by the Minister of RWED has already been shown to be less sound. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Dent, you may conclude your statement.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, honourable Members. Mr. Speaker, the type of rock formations deep under ground at Giant are filled with both manmade and natural holes, crevices and cracks that cannot be guaranteed to hold arsenic trioxide dust, particularly when it mixes with deep groundwater. The deep disposal option will also be much more dangerous to workers, rather than freezing it in place, as moving this stuff around is an extremely dangerous proposition.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Dangerous.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I believe that by rejecting the recommendation made by the four Yellowknife MLAs the Minister and this government have delayed the cleanup of Giant Mine, a delay we can't afford.

There will soon be a change in leadership at the federal level and then a federal election. We may lose the political will that has been there to deal with some of the contaminated sites across Canada. After years of trying to educate the federal government about the situation at Giant, now it looks like the 15th Assembly will have to start a new process. Meanwhile, the people of Yellowknife, Ndilo and Dettah must wait and wonder about the safety of their environment.

Mr. Speaker, this government should re-examine its position on the arsenic remediation right away. Today, if possible. Then it should advise Minister Nault that we want to see action right away.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Yeah.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Freeze the arsenic in place. Mr. Speaker, if we put pressure on we may still qualify for funding under the second year of the contaminated sites accelerated action fund, but if we don't tell Minister Nault our decision and press for funding we might really blow it and miss out on the fund all together. That could delay remediation for at least a few more years. Mr. Speaker, we need this action and we need it now.

Giant Mine Remediation Project
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An Hon. Member

Hear, hear.

---Applause

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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my Member's statement will be around the government's plans and intentions as our government decides to change its practice or include other things or expand its authority in different areas. Mr. Speaker, we've heard in this House on a number of occasions throughout this term about the roles that boards and authorities play in delivering programs and services on behalf of our government. Mr. Speaker, I particularly raise questions about this area in the area of the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Authority and the role it plays in delivering services. We know that, with the onset of self-government table negotiations around the North, the map that we and the departments use is going to change in the area of regional offices and department. But, Mr. Speaker, without a real plan in place, things can be done ad hoc and it's difficult to find out information from a government as to what's going on.

The point, Mr. Speaker, is that I've had to raise the issue about the development of the Sahtu Health and Social Services Authority and how it would impact on the constituents that I serve out of Inuvik. Mr. Speaker, getting responses from the Minister in this area, after I was told that I would be kept informed, I'm somewhat dismayed. I find out that much more work has been going on than I was informed of. This discovery was through a second source, in a sense, accidentally through reviewing of a financial document asking a Minister some questions and being provided some more information. So based on that, Mr. Speaker, I have concerns again and would like to seek more information from the Minister of Health and Social Services as to what exactly is going on, what plans are in place and when were those plans approved. So I'll have a question for the appropriate Minister. Thank you.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Land Development In Hay River
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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the community of Hay River has almost run out of land. Hay River is currently developing its last remaining residential property. Only a few lots are left in our industrial and commercial land bank. The town owns another piece of property, but it will take at least three years to drain it to the point where it can be ready for development.

The town has approached the territorial government to transfer additional Commissioner's land. The land is needed for residential and commercial purposes. Winter is fast approaching and potential buyers could use the autumn to prepare for summer construction next year.

Mr. Speaker, this past spring, the territorial government approved Hay River's general plan, which had included a request for land to be transferred over to the town. The Deh Cho First Nations interim measures final agreement requires the government to consult with affected Deh Cho nations before selling or leasing undeveloped Commissioner's land identified in the general plan. The general plan already has the written approval of the K'atlodeeche First Nation. The West Point First Nation has offered conditional support and approval, but one of the conditions is that they need to be funded to undertake a general plan of their own. This request doesn't fall within the mandate or jurisdiction of the Town of Hay River to address.

I was very encouraged by a recent conversation with the president of the Northwest Territories Metis Nation and an article in the Hub, where the chief negotiator for the Metis Nation stated, "We have had no communication with MACA involving any proposals from the Town of Hay River. And if there is a dialogue and Metis interests are addressed in an equitable fashion, we're interested in moving forward if the town is interested."

Mr. Speaker, many communities in our territory are growing as a result of increased resource development. More land is needed to meet current and forecasted demands for residential and commercial properties. The Deh Cho interim measures final agreement provides a blueprint for a respectable process between First Nations, municipalities and the territorial government for the transfer of Commissioner's land, but the details of that process have to be worked out in practice.

Since at the end of the day it is the GNWT that moves ahead with the decision about whether or not to transfer the land, it needs to clearly communicate with the Town of Hay River and other municipalities in similar circumstances on the process requiring land. The general plan for Hay River has been signed off. The Town of Hay River has done its part. The affected First Nations within the Deh Cho have been consulted and, inasmuch as is possible, the Town of Hay River has done what it can to address the conditions of the West Point First Nation. The NWT Metis Association apparently would be amendable to entering into discussions with the town and the department. I understand that the town has been advised of some requirements...

Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement, please.

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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude her statement. Are there any nays? No, there aren't. Mrs. Groenewegen, you may conclude.

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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that the town has been advised of some requirement on their part to participate in this process with the assistance of computer programming and software which they are willing to get up to speed with as soon as possible.

The town and the people of Hay River want this process to proceed in a timely manner. Mr. Speaker, I submit that the ball is now in the GNWT's court. We're looking for leadership from this government on this issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You have to excuse me if I slur my words here -- I had some dental work done -- especially when I'm going to be doing a speech on health.

In August of 2002, I had the pleasure of travelling with the Minister of Health and Social Services to a community meeting in Wekweti. At that meeting, community members pointed out the need for a health centre and a nurse within the community. They had concerns with the lack of a permanent nurse, and they pointed out that they had been asking for these services for a very long time. People asked also, and wondered why, there was no consistency in health care delivery standards. For example, some northern communities which are smaller than Wekweti have a full-time nurse and a health centre.

In response to these concerns, the Minister of Health and Social Services stated that there was a need for a standard level of health service delivery across the Territories, and that he would be working towards this. That was over a year ago, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the honourable Michael Miltenberger updated the House on the Health and Social Services System Action Plan which was released in February 2002. In his update the Minister stated that 36 of the 45 action plan items have been addressed by the department. He also stated that the remaining nine action items will be looked at within the next six months.

Mr. Speaker, I looked through this action plan and I was very alarmed that no mention was made of funding a community nurse or a health centre in Wekweti. Mr. Speaker, last December, the Minister stated that we in the Dogrib region would be getting two doctors and possibly another nurse as soon as they could be recruited. This announcement was great news to my people. Having access to local doctors and nurses would mean easier access to medical care, and less waiting time and travel away from home and loved ones. Mr. Speaker, I reviewed statements that the Minister has made during the past year on health delivery and I have not heard more on this subject.

Mr. Speaker, I will be asking him for an update on this matter later on in question period. Thank you.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on Sunday, September 29th, I had the opportunity to attend the official opening of the MultiPlex arena in Yellowknife, and I would like to take this opportunity to speak, once again, about the need for this government to support recreation facilities in the city of Yellowknife.

Mr. Speaker, everyone knows that the capital city is experiencing rapid growth and it seems that our property taxes are on an upwards spiral, but our taxes are not enough to meet the demands being placed on our community infrastructure. The one area that is really falling victim to this, Mr. Speaker, is our sports and recreational facilities.

For the most part of the past winter months, Mr. Speaker, this city of 18,000 had to share one ice pad. A large part of this had to do with the lack of funding which made it necessary to extend the life of the old Gerry Murphy Arena as long as possible, until it had to be finally shut down before the new one could be built. We're very glad that the second ice pad now is operating and it has eased the burden somewhat, but the sad fact that is this is far from enough to meet the needs of our growing city.

Mr. Speaker, it has been brought to my attention that the city of Iqaluit -- and I've said this many times in the House before -- which has a population of under 10,000, has two ice pads. Yellowknife, on the other hand, with a population of 18,000, now only has two ice pads and even with the new ones it's not enough. We are in need of at least three ice pads for the population we serve, and this means we have no time to rest before we have to get the third one running.

Mr. Speaker, I know that the funding for recreational facilities is done by this government through block funding, but this gives no comfort to my constituents who can see with their eyes the irony of a young offenders facility going up side by side with a recreational facility that has had to go through such a struggle to raise money. I really believe it is high time that this government acknowledges it is falling behind the needs of this growing city, and that it cannot hide behind block funding when it comes to showing commitment for recreational facilities.

I might also add, Mr. Speaker, in light of the Minister's statement yesterday about a recreation and sports policy, I don't believe its enough to tinker with the lottery program and governance structure. I believe what is needed is commitment to the youth and more dollars. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Promoting NWT Tourism
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1261

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in the House I had questions for the Minister of RWED about the need to have a plan to diversify our economy, Mr. Speaker. I think it's critical that we ensure that we don't put all of our economic eggs in one basket.

But I think one of the things that can really be the pillar of a strong economy, and it's something that we've had a lot of discussion about, is the tourism industry. Unfortunately over the last few years there have been a cascade of events, starting with 9-11, the war in Iraq, SARS, mad cow; a number of events that have hurt tourism in North America, hurt tourism in Canada and certainly, by extrapolation, in the Northwest Territories. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to international travelers, many of us would recognize that they don't simply leave their international jurisdiction and end up in the Northwest Territories. They have to come through southern Canada. So if southern Canada is having problems, if there are travel advisories out because we are dealing with a SARS epidemic in Toronto, people from overseas oftentimes don't make the distinction and don't realize that Toronto isn't in fact all of Canada. It affects us, certainly, Mr. Speaker, in the Northwest Territories.

I know many of my colleagues and I have been working late recently, but if they've had the chance to look at the sky, they've seen a beautiful natural phenomenon that we're so lucky to have, and that's the northern lights. But, Mr. Speaker, the tourism industry that has been built up around this natural phenomenon can be a fickle one, and we have seen it seriously impacted and seriously affected by these events of late. It's important that government does what it can to work with industry to try to bring this and other tourism industry back to the Territories. We need to work with industry to make sure that we help to develop product. After all, we have to have something for people to do and to see and to partake in when they do come to the North. We know that if you look at other natural phenomenons like the Rocky Mountains, Mr. Speaker, there has been product, there has been an industry developed around something beautiful like that, but it doesn't happen by accident and it doesn't happen without government support.

We can ensure that the entire Northwest Territories is included because we can focus on destination awareness, we can focus on the Northwest Territories as a desirable destination to visit. I think it's timely and I think we have to keep the pressure on the federal government to recognize that we, too, have been seriously impacted by negative events; our tour operators, our hotels, our restaurants, our airlines. It hasn't been just Toronto. We need to continue to send this message to the federal government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Promoting NWT Tourism
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1261

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. The Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Allen.

Recognition Of Constituents In Inuvik Twin Lakes
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1262

Roger Allen

Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you and I can relate to, the trapping season is shortly going to be coming upon us. We won't be in the House to welcome the trappers back on the land, but today I would like to acknowledge a few of my constituents who rarely, if ever, get attention other than if they become involved in our community politics, socio-economic or cultural organizations that drive our institutions.

Mr. Speaker, in my riding of Inuvik Twin Lakes, we have a very large mixture of various ethnic groups who make many contributions to the economic and social fabric of Inuvik.

Mr. Speaker, I have to express my gratitude to my good friends such as Frankie Charlie, Big Ben Rogers, Michael Coyen, Joe Norbert and Mervin Firth, just to name a few. Each time I travel to my hometown of Inuvik, I get a chance to speak with them about what's important to them and others who they tend to represent. They often remind me of my role. Even though they don't say it out loud, they have a certain way of expressing what an MLA must do to keep people aware of our work.

So today I just want to say a huge hello to those quiet gentlemen in the riding of Inuvik Twin Lakes who often sit down with me over a cup of coffee and remind me of what we are here for, and sometimes we are underappreciated. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Recognition Of Constituents In Inuvik Twin Lakes
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1262

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Braden.

NWT Arts Strategy
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1262

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We've all returned from quite a long summer and quite a nice summer, at least in this part of the NWT. Part of the summer for all Northerners, Mr. Speaker, is a chance to attend the arts and music festivals that have become such an important part of the summer activities and the fabric of our culture and our lifestyle here in the NWT. Around the rest of the year, Mr. Speaker, we also enjoy in each and every one of our communities, some kind of a winter festival as well. It helps us celebrate the environment we live in and helps give us a break from it too. In the course of that, we have our own arts and crafts and drama organizations -- volunteer organizations mostly, Mr. Speaker -- that get together and try to do something for themselves, but also to show the community, friends and neighbours what they've got going for them.

I was just at a great evening this past weekend, organized by the Yellowknife Photography Club, where a noted Canadian photographer, Sherman Hines, was in to give us a demonstration and some tips on his craft. Mr. Speaker, this is also something that contributes to -- as Mr. Bell was talking about -- a tourism product that is so important to our economy here and the success of our communities. We have many unique things to offer to ourselves and to Canadians and visitors from around the world. It's in this respect, Mr. Speaker, that I continue to look forward, as I'm sure Members on this side of the House have for months and months, to the release of the NWT arts strategy. It's something that a lot of people have put a lot of work into, but we have not seen it materialize yet. I just put that out as one of the kind of end game anticipations that I have to see what our government is going to put forward in the line of a strategy for this very important part of our life as Northerners. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

NWT Arts Strategy
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1262

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs, Mr. Antoine.

Further Return To Question 363-14(6): Access To The Community Futures Program In The Deh Cho Constituency
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 1262

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to oral question asked by Mr. McLeod on October 2, 2003, regarding access to the community futures program in the Deh Cho constituency.

The Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development is responsible for the community futures program in the Northwest Territories. The program is viewed as a cornerstone of the department's economic development efforts. Consequently, in the last four years, the department has financed a significant expansion of the community futures program in an effort to cover all regions of the Northwest Territories.

Three communities, Kakisa, Fort Providence and Hay River Reserve, in the department's South Slave region are not formally serviced by a specific community futures development corporation under the current contribution agreements. However, these three communities have had access to all financial programs delivered by the department's regional office in Hay River.

I have asked the department to take the necessary steps to ensure that the three communities receive service and representation by an existing community futures board as soon as possible and no later than April 1, 2004, at the latest. Once a decision has been reached on which community futures board will deliver the program to the three communities mentioned, board members representing the communities shall be appointed from the respective communities. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Further Return To Question 363-14(6): Access To The Community Futures Program In The Deh Cho Constituency
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 1262

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Ms. Lee.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1262

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize two people in the gallery, one being a long-term resident of Yellowknife, Mr. Fred Turner, and a long-term resident of Yellowknife and a constituent of Range Lake, Mr. Francis Chang. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1262

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Nitah.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1262

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to recognize Fred and Francis, as well. Both gentlemen I know. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Welcome to the House. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. The Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question will be directed to the Minister of Health and Social Services. I would like to know from the Minister what plans are in place now for the reorganization of the Inuvik Regional Health and Services Authority. Thank you.

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, plans are underway for the creation of the Sahtu Health and Social Services Authority, which will somewhat impact the structure in Inuvik. There is also work underway up in the Beaufort-Delta to look at the current structure of the board and membership from the communities. That is also underway and it will hopefully be completed by February. Thank you.

Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Supplementary To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister inform us as to when the plans to proceed were made by Cabinet? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

The plans for the restructuring of the board in Inuvik, the representation and those issues have been underway and are tied somewhat to the self-government discussions with the request to improve community representation.

When I first came on as Minister about 18 months ago, we started to move on the creation of the Sahtu Health and Social Services Authority that would bring into line services and program areas in the Sahtu region similar to what has been done with the divisional education council. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Supplementary To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister wasn't clear enough on when the actual plan was approved. He did say that when he came on as Minister this work began. It's interesting he should say that. Mr. Speaker, is there a final plan, and has it been approved and what date was that approved? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

Further Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it was one of the action items in the action plan that was put forward, presented and approved through Cabinet. We have gone to Cabinet and to FMB with submissions for funding, and the plan is unfolding. The new CEO for the Sahtu authority started yesterday. She will be continuing with work on the job to work with the Inuvik authority, to look at the allocation of resources from the Inuvik region to the Sahtu on the administration and headquarters side. So for the last 18 months this issue has been on the table and was approved through the action plan and approved by Cabinet. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Final supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Supplementary To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When was the plan approved by Cabinet, and was that plan shared with the social programs committee or Members of this House? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

Further Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have kept the social programs committee informed, we've kept Cabinet informed and we've attempted to keep the MLAs from the Inuvik region informed. If I have not quite met the mark on that, as my colleague indicated in his opening statement, then I apologize for that and I will redress by offering a full briefing of all the information that we do have that you may have not seen in detail. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Question 389-14(6): Reorganization Of The Inuvik Regional Health And Social Services Authority
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1263

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 6, oral questions. Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In my Member's statement today I voiced my concern over a contribution of $200,000 that the K'atlodeeche First Nation has had to contribute for an extra classroom in the Chief Sunrise School. Over the last couple of years, the issue of overcrowding has been on the table with the Minister, through correspondence and in community meetings. We've requested the Minister go to Cabinet for additional dollars, and we've been told on every occasion that there are no new dollars, there is no new money. So as a last resort, the K'atlodeeche First Nation took $200,000 out of their companies to put towards the school. Since then we've heard a number of announcements about new schools and renovations. I'm just wondering if the Minister could inform this Assembly and if he indeed made a submission to the Financial Management Board for the $200,000 that we were requesting, over and above what was being allocated. Thank you.

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I should state that any time we're dealing with a school facility, Mr. Speaker, we're very concerned to ensure that facilities are adequate and we can contribute to them. With respect to the Member's question, no, we didn't go to Cabinet for the $200,000, because we had a commitment, Mr. Speaker, from the band to provide the $200,000. Mr. Speaker, originally the Chief Sunrise School was identified as requiring upgrading, but then it was decided that KFN had provided additional funding so the scope of the work could be expanded, Mr. Speaker. From there, the scope of the work did expand and the band itself had stated they would contribute $200,000 to the project. Thank you.

Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Supplementary To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I've had the sense for some time now that the Minister never went to bat for us, and I'm very disappointed. The community was always of the opinion that this was a last resort; because Cabinet had turned us down we had to put in the money from the community. I understand now that that was not the case at all. I would like to ask the Minister if he could tell me how many other communities in the Northwest Territories have had infrastructure facilities for education. We, in the smaller communities that have a high aboriginal population, believe it's a community right. Yet on the reserve, which is 100 percent aboriginal, we're paying for classroom space. We have students in the hallways, we have students in the gym, we have students taking classes in the foyer, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister, can he tell me how many other communities are paying for their own classroom space. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Minister Ootes.

Further Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question itself, I don't have the answer to that. I would have to check back to see and check with our department. But, Mr. Speaker, I should point out that we looked at the school and identified a need for a renovation and a small expansion. But at the request of the community... The community requested that this be expanded. It has to be remembered, Mr. Speaker, that within the school is an aboriginal headstart program, as well, and that particular program is a federally-funded program and normally the federal government provides capital funding for projects. We've not been able to obtain that money for this purpose, Mr. Speaker. So in a sense, we are meeting the needs of the school, but there's a program within the school that's really federally initiated and operated. We understand the need within the community, but that became part of the challenge here, Mr. Speaker. I think the community was very generous in its approach here to offer to provide funding for expansion. But it was beyond the scope of the original project, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Supplementary To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's obvious that the Minister does not recognize the aboriginal headstart students as students. It's one of the most successful programs in the aboriginal communities throughout the North, and it's very disappointing once again to hear the Minister give his answer that these are not real students. I would like to ask the Minister if he would then consider the $200,000 as a loan or a contribution. I understand that other communities, such as Yellowknives First Nations, have made contributions towards their school with a repayment attached to it. Would the Minister look at this whole scenario and consider this as a loan with repayment sometime in the future? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Further Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do recognize that the aboriginal headstart program is made of students and they're extremely important. We have an early childhood development program with this government that addresses this whole area. To suggest that I don't classify them as students or am not interested in it is not correct, Mr. Speaker. I'm very concerned about early childhood development and the benefits that can offer.

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that this is an early childhood program, not a K to12 program and we provide funding for K to 12. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the request, I'd have to check to see what other programs have been operated under that basis where funding had been provided and then repaid, Mr. Speaker. I just am not familiar with that, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Final supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Supplementary To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It would be interesting to see how the Minister is going to put a price on the aboriginal headstart program and its worth and measure the cost without having this program housed because there is no other facility to put this program in the community. I'd like to ask the Minister with my final question, what are the options that he looked at? We understood that he went to Cabinet, we find that's not the case. Did he look at anything else or did he just go to the chief of the council with his hand out? Is there any other option he can point to that he looked at for accommodating this request for additional classroom space? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Further Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1264

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Speaker, I'd have to just go back into my memory to see what actions we did take. It seems to me we had checked about the aboriginal headstart program to see if we could obtain funding from the federal government to assist us in this particular process. That's from my initial memory here, Mr. Speaker, and we did go to Cabinet, of course, with regard to the school itself in terms of providing the financing for this. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Question 390-14(6): Renovation Funding To The Chief Sunrise School
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1265

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development on mine cleanup. Mr. Speaker, the funding commitments for the second year of the three-year contaminants site accelerated action fund program will soon be made. It's urgent that this government communicate their position to Minister Nault if we want to get a federal agreement on the preferred option and then to start implementing it.

Mr. Speaker, in September, the Minister said in a letter to Mr. Braden that the department was reviewing its decision on deep disposal option for arsenic at Giant. When will the department finalize its position, Mr. Speaker?

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine.

Return To Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1265

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, DIAND's independent peer review committee has looked at the review of deep disposal and they're recommending against it, so we at the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development are coordinating a GNWT review and the results will be brought to the Cabinet very soon. Thank you.

Return To Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1265

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1265

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we've already missed one year of the three-year program. Is the Minister confident that the decision on a preferred option will be transmitted to DIAND in time for us to make sure that we get some of the money for the second year of the three-year program?

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, once the Cabinet reviews the recommendation of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development we will be making a decision on the preferred options of keeping it in the ground, either a frozen block or deep disposal. At this point in time it looks like the preferred option is probably deep disposal, but there are other processes that work, Mr. Speaker. I guess the funding is in place there. We should try to have access to it. However, we understand that once DIAND decides on a course of action for the underground arsenic, a project description would be submitted to the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water Board and that process would likely have to go through assessment and some sort of a review. We don't know how long that's going to take, whether we could obtain funding before the process kicks into place or do we have to wait until that process is complete? This is our understanding at this point in time on the process in regard to the arsenic underground. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe I heard the Minister say that the preferred option at this time was the deep disposal option. We've had two reports from the peer review panel that say that is not a good option. Has the Minister made himself aware of these two reports so that he is fully up to date when his department comes to him with recommendations?

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to make some clarifications that the Cabinet position at this point in time was with the deep disposal option. We are aware of the recommendation of DIAND's review committee, which is recommending against it. We're reviewing that report and then we'll be making a decision according to that. It has to be a Cabinet decision to change that position. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Your final supplementary, Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, the final report that came up from the peer review committee was on July 22nd, so I'm disappointed to hear that in October we still don't have a position. The Minister seems to have indicated that we may have to go through a full environmental review. Will the Minister advise Minister Nault that we need to get something started very quickly and, with the peer review that's taken place, we want to make sure we can start the action within the next year. Thank you.

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Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine.

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Question 391-14(6): Giant Mine Remediation Project
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is a process that's handled by DIAND. We can only make recommendations and suggestions and we will do that. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister where we're at with the transfer of Commissioner's land as proposed in the general plan submitted by the Town of Hay River. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Steen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, the town needs to identify the parcels of Commissioner's land that it wants transferred, and then MACA has developed as well an electronic mapping tool to assist the town to identify these parcels. Afterwards, the town will have to put in a formal application to MACA and request the transfer of this land. Because it's fee simple that they're asking for, they would then have to take the request to the aboriginal groups and see whether or not they agree with this. Assuming everything goes forward as planned and there is no objection from the aboriginal groups, the application for transfer of this land and fee simple title will be taken to Cabinet for their approval to waive the policy. Thank you.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, what the Minister is saying is that when the general plan was submitted for approval by him and signed off several months ago that the Commissioner's land that the Town of Hay River was interested in for expansion was not identified in the general plan. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the land that the town wanted transferred in the general plan was identified. However, it is not specific. It is not identified in the legal form so that we could take that to the aboriginal groups and to Cabinet. It has to be identified in legal form, not just in a general plan. Thank you.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what is the Minister's department prepared to do to assist the Town of Hay River to identify these lands in legal form? I heard him talking about an electronic mapping system. This would be new infrastructure for the Town of Hay River. I'm sure they have never used it or seen it. It sounds like it's something new. What is the department prepared to do to assist the Town of Hay River to realize the acquisition of this land? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that my lands people are working with the town at this time already to explain to them how to use this equipment and assist them in using the equipment so that the blocks of Commissioner's land that the town is requiring and requesting will be identified in legal form.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Your final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister speaks of consultation that needs to take place about the transfer of this land with the First Nations affected parties. What about the consultation that's already taken place? What about the band council resolution from the Hay River Reserve and what about the conditional support of the West Point First Nation? What was the value of that consultation that was already done and who's going to take the lead on the consultation if that was not sufficient? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Steen.

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Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the consultation process is quite valuable in that if the application to MACA has attached to it the letters of aboriginal groups whereby they agree to the land transfer, this would speed up the process from 30 days to seven days. We could then have the papers worked out to take to Cabinet. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
Question 392-14(6): Development Of Commissioner's Land In Hay River
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River North, Mr. Delorey.

Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the Minister of Health and Social Services, the Honourable Mr. Miltenberger. Over the course of the past four years, numerous submissions have been made in regard to recognition of addictions counselling as a profession by representatives of the Canadian Addictions Counsel Certification Board to this government and to the Department of Health and Social Services. As we are approaching the end of the 14th Assembly, our addictions counsellors deserve to have definite answers with regard to their future. Is the honourable Minister willing to now formally recognize the profession of addictions counselling and the certification obtained through their certification board? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we've spent considerable time and effort in developing mental health and addiction strategy to look at properly paying the addictions workers that currently exist. We've converted those positions to community wellness workers. We've also invested money in positions that are the mental health addictions counsellors, as well as some clinical supervisors. We've done proper job descriptions. We've had the pay ranges classified so that they are properly compensated with pay and benefits. We are working on the training components for those jobs so that the folks who are in those jobs currently that may not be totally up to the qualifications required will have training. We're going to continue to formalize that training process. There is no plan at this time for any kind of other certification directly related to the addictions counsellors as referenced by my colleague. Thank you.

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Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister please elaborate for the House as to what the impediments are to having these hard working people recognized in their designated profession? Why can they not recognize them as addictions counsellors? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, at present we have been focused on some very fundamental changes in that we've converted the existing alcohol and drug positions, many of which did not work for Health and Social Services authorities, into indeterminate positions. We've created a job description entitled community wellness workers. As well, we have a more advanced level position, which is a mental health addictions counsellor and supervised by clinical supervisors. We clearly recognize the role that addictions and addictions counselling has to play in the system. It's part of the overall service delivery tied into the area of mental health and addiction services. Thank you.

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Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I stated previously, it is my understanding that representatives of the certification board have been waiting patiently for answers to their questions on recognition and certification for several years now. Is the Minister aware if they have been informed that the department will not be recognizing their profession? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a number of months ago, the deputy minister flew into Hay River to meet with some of Mr. Delorey's constituents on the issue. The reality is that at this point in time we are focused on these broad system changes. We are working at developing the training. Mr. Speaker, there are mental health addictions counsellor job descriptions and we're going to be looking at a number of qualifications and what would be considered equivalencies. So, I don't want to rule out completely that we're not ever going to do this particular step, it's just that at this point we're focused on reclassification to pay the new job descriptions. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Your final supplementary, Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm aware that the Minister has met with a constituent of mine on a number of occasions on this and I want to thank him for that. But, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister give a definite answer to these people if their profession is going to be recognized or if it is not? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Yes, I will. Thank you.

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Question 393-14(6): Certification Of The Addictions Counselling Profession
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah.

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Mr. Speaker, in my opening remarks I talked about the need to negotiate formula financing with local education authorities to improve the education system in their communities. Every year, I understand, there's a formula that is not negotiated. I would like to ask the Minister if he would consider entering into negotiations with local education authorities to determine the true cost of running the schools in the smaller communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Member bringing this forward. I know there's concern in small communities with regard to the funding process that we use. It is done on a per capita basis. There's some additional funding provided when grades are extended to grades 10, 11 and 12. That's all based on a formula, as the Member has said.

Mr. Speaker, in order to look at this particular question we have to be consistent across the Territories with all small schools and it is different than large high schools. I understand what the Member is saying and if you'll give me a moment, what I'm saying, Mr. Speaker, is that we need to identify the smaller communities and look at this process and see what kind of difficulties are arising for the small communities in this. From that base we could look at seeing what could be developed in regard to the funding process. It will mean a change in the funding formula that's provided for schools throughout the Territories, but I think the Member brings up a very good point. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Supplementary, Mr. Nitah.

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Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that answer. Mr. Speaker, in the Northwest Territories we argue all the time that per capita funding doesn't work for people in the Northwest Territories because of the size of our territory. There's no difference in our communities, as well, Mr. Speaker. If we need to determine a correct formula, maybe we need to start with a pilot project with one school and start that way. I'd like to suggest to the Minister that Deninu School, who's volunteered to do a pilot project, if you would consider Deninu School as the pilot project. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Member looking at the possibility of a pilot project. I think I have to go back to my comments earlier that we do have to do some homework on this and to look at the smaller communities where there is difficulty being experienced in order to deliver the high school type of programs, specifically with respect to the funding process, Mr. Speaker. I think I'd have to say that we would have to do it on a more consistent basis and a more thought out basis than to immediately jump into a pilot program. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Supplementary, Mr. Nitah.

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Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister's response was that we need to identify the small communities. I think we know which communities are small in the Northwest Territories already, so you don't have to go through that process. I think it's important to look at one school in-depth and figure out what's going on there to determine what's good for the rest of the territory. Fort Resolution's Deninu School has volunteered for that. They're doing good work. We just renovated the school. We have a first class school. We have first class teachers. We have first class administrators and a community that wants to participate and partner up with the department. So I'm asking again, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister and his department would look at a pilot project in Fort Resolution to determine what's best for the entire territory. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member made some very good statements and I want to echo those, as well, that the school in Fort Resolution is a fantastic school. They have a tremendous staff and they're doing a good job. They had a graduation ceremony last Friday at which I had hoped to be able to attend, but I couldn't. I do compliment the staff there and the administration and the community support. You know, Mr. Speaker, that's one of the reasons for successful schools. When the staff jump in there like that and put their all into it.

With respect to a pilot project, at this stage of the game for me that would be a difficult thing to authorize, Mr. Speaker, because it would require additional funding. Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what that would entail. I think I would have to approach it, as I said, more on the basis that the Member's correct. We know where the small communities are, but what are the conditions of the schools in those small communities and what are the needs. I think we need to do some work on that end, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Your final supplementary, Mr. Nitah.

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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, while I was attending the graduation ceremony at Deninu School on Friday, I, along with the deputy minister, Dr. Foley, met with the deputy chair of the DEA and they're very interested in returning to discussions to eliminate the gaps that are there for program and service delivery coming through the entire school and education system. I'd like to ask the Minister, if he's not willing to get into a pilot project that he get into a discussion to reduce or eliminate the gaps that exist in Deninu School right now with grade extension. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
Question 394-14(6): Negotiating Funding With Local School Authorities
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Certainly I think that's a good suggestion that we have our officials and the officials at the school and the DEA meet again together to discuss the issues that are before the school and see if we can eliminate some of the areas of problems, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Minister of MACA and it's in regard to the NWT Sports and Recreation Council report that he tabled in the House yesterday and replying to the questions from the Member for Hay River North. I wasn't clear in reviewing the Hansard where the Minister is with this. There's an indication that this is still out for public input and consultation. Can I get confirmation from the Minister that he's open to input from the stakeholders and the public about the latest report of his? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

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Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I realize that there are some Members who would like to have more time to review the information that was tabled and I've discussed this with my department as well. Although we feel that the interim committee has been reviewing all the information that they've received from their people that they represent and that they put forward some recommendations to the department on how to proceed and at what pace, I feel that there's still a need for input from the ordinary Members if possible before signing off on this new policy. Thank you.

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Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

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Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate that answer and I suppose that's the reason for tabling documents and that's to let the public know that they're there and ask for input. I just wanted to, Mr. Speaker, mention to the Minister that he made a commitment in this House and to me that he was going to meet with the president of Sport North, Mr. Abe Theil, in June and that he would report back to the House, but I haven't heard anything. Could I ask the Minister whether he'd be willing to do that as part of this consultation process? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

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Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I did have a meeting with the president of Sport North and because it was over the summer the only way I had of reporting back to the membership is through the process I'm using right now, which is the report on what the interim committee has been doing, which includes the representative of Sport North on there, what they've been doing over the summer and what they are looking forward to doing the rest of this fiscal year. Their recommendations to us so far is that we should proceed as planned and have the new sports and recreation council in place by April 1st. Thank you.

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Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

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Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This has been on the books for a long time, Mr. Speaker, and it has been difficult for Members here to work on this because it seems that the Minister has the perception of this in one way and then we hear other things from the sports community. There are lots of concerns there that are not being able to get addressed. So, Mr. Speaker, it's really important for me, anyway, and the Members, I believe, to see that the concerns that Sport North and other sport governing bodies have are addressed. I have had a chance to look at what the Minister tabled yesterday and that's not giving me the information. May I ask the Minister once again to make a commitment to provide the Members with the information as to what their concerns were and how he's addressed them? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

Further Return To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I could commit to having a summary of our meeting that we had with Sport North over the summer and pass that on to the Member, yes.

Further Return To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Your final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That's only half of the commitment that I was looking for. Mr. Speaker, understanding that I think we're going to be out of the House pretty soon, can I have the Minister tell us what the concerns of Sport North were and what the Minister has done to address them so that we don't have the same thing like BIP happening again where concerns are ignored. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1269

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

Further Return To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, rather than go into a detailed answer, I'm going to take your question as notice and respond to the Member in writing.

Further Return To Question 395-14(6): Nwt Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Question 395-14(6): NWT Sport, Recreation And Physical Activity System
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1270

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, that question has been taken as notice. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I listened with interest to the response the Minister of Health and Social Services gave to my colleague from Inuvik about the creation of the Sahtu health board, and really this is a regional reorganization, Mr. Speaker, we can call it whatever we want but I think that is what it is. The Minister indicated that he had been keeping -- I'd have to check Hansard -- but I believe he said he'd been keeping Social Programs apprised of this reorganization and I think that he also indicated that he'd been to FMB for funding sometime in the spring; May possibly, Mr. Speaker. Unless I missed a meeting, I don't remember a discussion in Social Programs about what this is going to cost per year, so maybe the Minister could refresh my memory and tell the House when he came before Social Programs to talk about the cost of the Sahtu health board.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Question 396-14(6): Creation Of Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will have to check the records and I take that as notice.

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Question 396-14(6): Creation Of Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, the question has been taken as notice. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question this afternoon is for the honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment and it is about the Arts Strategy, Mr. Speaker, which was initiated I believe within the last 18 months or two years with some enthusiasm. I believe this was jointly undertaken with the department of RWED. I want to ask the Minister for starters, what is the status of the NWT Arts Strategy? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

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Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have been working together with the department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development to develop the response to the arts strategy report vision for the arts, and we expect to be able to table that either tomorrow or the next day, Mr. Speaker. Hopefully tomorrow. Thank you.

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Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary Mr. Braden.

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Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
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Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you very much. Given that we are about to see this, I won't waste any time asking questions about what might be in it because I think that would be denied. Mr. Speaker, in the meantime, I am wondering if the Minister could advise of the status of the former NWT Arts Council, which was the artists' voice into the Minister's office. I can see by the department's Web site that the term of the council has expired. Is there an Arts Council in existence today? What is the status of this organization? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 397-14(6): Status Of The Nwt Arts Strategy
Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1270

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

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Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no changes in that approach, Mr. Speaker, to continue with the Arts Council. I am not familiar with the dates of termination of the panel members, Mr. Speaker, but our intent is to continue with the Arts Council.

Further Return To Question 397-14(6): Status Of The Nwt Arts Strategy
Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1270

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 397-14(6): Status Of The Nwt Arts Strategy
Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Mr. Speaker, with the coming tabling of the government's response, is this something that we can anticipate there will be some new initiatives underway immediately, or is this going to be something that we still have to consider and analyze? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 397-14(6): Status Of The Nwt Arts Strategy
Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1270

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Further Return To Question 397-14(6): Status Of The Nwt Arts Strategy
Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The arts panel brought forward recommendations in seven areas, Mr. Speaker, some of which we have been able to initiate as we have been developing the response to the arts panel report. Others are more complicated and will require a funding process and identification of resources. So we have not sat still on this whole area, Mr. Speaker. We have introduced changes, but with the approval of our process of this House because as the Member will recall, we increased the funding for the doubling of the Arts Council contributions to $280,000 and there is a few programs like that, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 397-14(6): Status Of The Nwt Arts Strategy
Question 397-14(6): Status Of The NWT Arts Strategy
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1270

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question will be directed to the Minister of Health and Social Services and following my first line of questioning. Mr. Speaker, once again, when I asked the Minister about when the final direction or approval is given by Cabinet, what date was that? He went on for some time about the process but never really came to a date, so I'd like to know for the record from the Minister, what date was made for the decision on the Sahtu Health and Social Services Authority? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, after months of preparatory work, we were given the go ahead by Cabinet for May 2003. Thank you.

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Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

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Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, now that we have that understood, can he inform me and this House as to the impacts this decision will have on the services provided for residents of the Beaufort-Delta region? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there should in fact be some improvement to the services that we have committed to making sure that there is no loss of service for either authority. Specifically, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that, for example, the regional positions that are currently in Inuvik providing supervision for the Inuvik region as it now exists, including the Sahtu, are going to stay in Inuvik and the doctors that have been added based on the current population are going to stay there. We have added a couple of doctors in the Sahtu. So, Mr. Speaker, we have tried to minimize the immediate impact. There are three clerical positions that have been moved. That will be...(inaudible)...in terms of any position moves out of Inuvik. Thank you.

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Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his response. What is the price tag on this new development of a new authority for the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have asked, we're going to be spending about $1 million in incremental costs and $400,000 plus on one-time costs further to further moves. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Your final supplementary, Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since this has been based on the development of self-government in the area, is this cost going to be covered by the federal government because this is development in the area of self-government, is it not? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At present we are considering this a logical step in terms of program development that rationalizes the service delivery of health and social services in keeping with the direction taken with, for example, the divisional education council, with what has happened in the Deh Cho to rationalize and bring the services within the specific administration of the region. That is the approach. Should there be an opportunity down the road to get compensated for some of the costs through self-government negotiations, of course we would love to do that.

Further Return To Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 298-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Health and Social Services and it is in regard to the establishment of the Sahtu Health Board. I support the Sahtu in their endeavors to get health closer to their communities. I would just like to ask the Minister, knowing that we have some stomach problems in the Beaufort-Delta region on how programs are delivered in the communities, are there any affects that we have seen today on the program delivery in small communities associated with the establishment of the Sahtu Health Board?

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this shift on the creation of the Sahtu authority will bring decision-making closer to the people in the Sahtu. They will have the administrative and executive capacity to administer and oversee the services that are delivered in their region. There will be no negative impact or loss of capacity in this region for the delivery of services to Inuvik or the communities of Aklavik and McPherson or Tsiigehtchic or any of the other communities in the Inuvik region. Thank you.

Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1271

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

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Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, just in regard to the Minister's answer, I would just like to ask the Minister what type of representation can we see from McPherson, Aklavik or Tsiigehtchic so that they can have a say on exactly what is going on with the Inuvik health board, which is now a smaller board, has a smaller area of authority and has supposedly a closer connection to the community? Can we see more community involvement in the day-to-day operation of the Inuvik health board from those communities?

Supplementary To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1272

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, work is underway to in fact expand the representation for the Inuvik board, as it will exist after the Sahtu is on its own, effective April 2004, and that is to in fact get representatives from each community in the Inuvik region to sit on the health and social services authority. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1272

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister directly, there has been a call put out to ask for names to be put forth from the communities I represent, those names were put forth and they have been declined. So if you are saying that you are going to allow for more time, I'd like to ask the Minister directly, why were those people's names refused, in which they were put forth by the communities?

Supplementary To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1272

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are going to continue with the existing board and board members until February. There is work underway in the Inuvik region with the health and social services Authority, with the Inuvialuit and the Gwich'in to look at the community representatives. They have asked for time, until February, to complete their work in this area and I have agreed to that so that it can be done appropriately and as requested by the Inuvik leadership and the leadership in the Inuvik region. Mr. Speaker, we will be moving on the names when there is consensus on the list that is proposed. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Page 1272

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Your final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

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Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am not sure which way the Minister is coming, I can't figure out which way the wind blows in this building but from one day to the next. They put out a call for nominations for community representatives to sit on the board, to get the names put forward then they turn around and say sorry, your names don't qualify, we'll wait until February. In my view, is this is a public agency and public body in the sense that it represents the people in the communities. Why aren't the communities assured that those people they put forth will be able to speak on their behalf without being dictated by the Department of Health and Social Services on who can qualify and who can't qualify? So can the Minister tell me what the qualifications are that are needed from your department to sit on the Inuvik health board?

Supplementary To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have a list of criteria for trustees for all authorities, in which I would be happy to share with the Member. It was developed in conjunction with all the authorities, the board chairs and the senior management. We also would like to point out that we are working collaboratively with the political leadership of the Inuvik region to make sure that this process is effective and is tailored to the regional needs as much as possible. It is not the department dictating to the Inuvik region who should be sitting on the board or who should be nominated from their communities. We are going to be working with the leadership, as I indicated, to in fact make the direction they are going to provide us with the names.

Further Return To Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Question 399-14(6): Approval For The Establishment Of The Sahtu Health Board
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1272

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Michael Miltenberger, the Minister of Health and Social Services. My question is on the status report, Action Plan 2002-2005. In it he says that they have identified communities and programs, but I see they have left out some of the things that were an issue in this House a number of times. I'd like to ask him, what is he doing to standardize health facilities and health care in the communities in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have been working very diligently in the development of the integrated service delivery model, which is a process where we work with a model for service delivery that is collaborative, community-based and integrates services at the community level. Part of that process was to do a full and complete inventory of all the services that all the communities have. There is whole range of sizes of communities and there are different service levels in a lot of different communities, and part of the process is to develop a baseline of what is acceptable, what is there and how far do we have to move to in fact standardize the service delivery. The Member is correct, that across the Northwest Territories there is a lack of consistency in terms of how services have evolved in various communities and it is one of the long-term issues that we are going to strive to address. Thank you.

Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1273

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hope the Minister is not talking about another study there about the information he is putting together. I'd like to ask him, he said in his opening introduction that there are actions to support people in taking care of themselves and improve support they receive from the health and social services system. How can you help people to help themselves if they don't have the facilities to help themselves in? I'd like to ask the Minister, when is he going to look at improving the health facilities in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are moving as consistently and as comprehensively as we can in terms of health facilities. We have done work in Aklavik, Inuvik and we are doing work in Sachs, in Holman and Paulatuk. We are working with the Hay River Reserve in dealing with their issues. There is work to be done in the Hay River hospital as well, and Fort Smith is on the list. Mr. Speaker, we know that there are facilities that we have that need to be improved. We know that there are areas where we haven't got facilities and we have to put them in. It is a question of getting everything planned and into the process, accessing available funds the same as we try to do with the actual program services with the nurses. We have added doctors, we have added social workers, we have upgraded alcohol and drug workers and we are trying to do as much as we can, but we have time constraints and funding constraints. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1273

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is too bad we can't get any questions when the Minister doesn't answer your question. I'd like to ask him again, what is he doing for standardizing facilities in the Northwest Territories? He has given me answers on all of the other things except the facilities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1273

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are looking at protecting and upgrading the facilities we have, the investments we now have on the ground. As I said, Sachs, Paulatuk, Holman; we have just opened a health centre in Aklavik. We are doing work in Hay River and a number of other areas. We have other work to do; we have to compete for scarce capital dollars. The community service delivery models will address both the program needs and where there are shortages of infrastructure. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Your final supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. During his answer, the Minister referred to a number of communities. I have never heard those names mentioned in this House or any questions on lacking services, except for Hay River, and I know there have been issues there and it is justifiable to say that they do need help in upgrading their facility there, but shouldn't the Minister look at putting facilities in where there are none instead of just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1273

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, clearly in the business we are in, we all know in this House that there are more needs than there are resources. We do not upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. We upgrade for the sake of protecting our investment to make sure that we can continue to deliver high-quality programs from these critical facilities. We also know that there are places that need facilities, they have to be dealt with and we are taking steps to do that. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The time for question period has expired. Item 7, written questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I have a written question for the Minister of Health and Social Services.

  1. Can the Minister provide a firm date as to when the job competition will be posted for an alcohol and drug worker in Aklavik?
  2. Can the Minister provide a firm date as to when the job competition will be held for a position under the new mental health/addictions investment for the community of Aklavik?
  3. Can the Minister provide a timeline for the Department of Health and Social Services and the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Authority to once again involve the community of Aklavik in delivering mental health/addictions programming?
  4. Will the Minister consider removing the requirement of any new mental health and addictions services provider or board in Aklavik to take on the debt of the previous board and, if not, why not?
The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 6, oral questions.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to item 6, oral questions. Are there any nays? There was a nay. You do not have consent. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to Opening Address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

On June 11, 2003, Bill 22, Waste Recovery and Reduction Act and Bill 25, Municipal Statutes Replacement Act were referred to the Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development for public review.

The Committee held public hearings in Inuvik, Aklavik, Hay River and Yellowknife.

The following is the committee's report on Bill 22 and on Bill 25, and reflects the views of committee members and those of the people and organizations that took the time to appear at the public hearings or to make written submissions.

Bill 22, Waste Recovery And Reduction Act

Introduction

The Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development is pleased to report on its review of Bill 22, Waste Recovery and Reduction Act.

The committee would like to thank the Minister and his staff for moving quickly to complete and introduce this bill in response to requests by Members of the Legislative Assembly to make it a priority.

The committee would also like to thank all the individuals who took the time to prepare submissions or to make presentations at our public hearings.

The committee heard a great deal of support for this long-awaited legislation, which will allow the government to establish waste recovery, reuse and recycling programs to deal with a wide range of materials. As Ms. Mary McCreadie stated, "This kind of thing is good for our environment, it is good for our people, it helps reduce the direct short and long-term costs for garbage and landfill sites, and it helps reduce the less direct short and long-term costs for the health of the people, animals, water and our land." Ms. McCreadie's statement was typical of the positive comments made by witnesses.However, the committee also heard many questions and concerns about how the act would be implemented, particularly with respect to the proposed beverage container recovery program.

The Minister has indicated that the first program to be developed under this proposed act will be for the recovery of beverage containers, such as pop cans, tetra packs and bottles. The department has already undertaken some public communication and consultation on this proposed initiative and, as a result, many people had comments and questions that were specific to beverage container regulations that may be developed pursuant to this bill, rather than to the bill itself. The committee, therefore, felt it was necessary to take the opportunity to report comments and recommendations on the development of these regulations in addition to its findings on the bill.

Public Review

The committee held public hearings in Yellowknife on August 26th and September 17 to 18, 2003, in Inuvik on September 2nd, in Aklavik on September 3rd, and in Hay River on September 8th. During the clause-by-clause review, which took place on September 18th, four motions to amend the bill were carried by the committee and concurred with by the Minister. All four motions were of a minor and non-substantive nature. Following clause-by-clause review of the bill, a motion was carried to report Bill 22 as amended and reprinted back to the Assembly as ready for consideration in Committee of the Whole.

Consultation

As Members and some witnesses noted, Bill 22 leaves many important issues to be addressed by regulations approved by the Executive Council. It became very clear to the committee that more public communication and consultation is essential before the government proceeds with any regulations, including regulations for a beverage container recovery program. Most people who appeared at our public hearings asked what opportunities they might have to provide input on the regulations, and some had very legitimate concerns about the effect the regulations could have on their businesses, which they do not feel the department has addressed to date.

Bill 22 does provide for the establishment of an advisory committee. Many witnesses took note of this and suggested it could be a vehicle for stakeholder representatives to participate in developing programs and regulations.

Members were pleased that the Minister committed to establishing the advisory committee quickly so they will have the opportunity to be involved in the development of regulations for the beverage container program as well as subsequent regulations. Members also support the suggestion of Mr. Ray Massey, who represented the Inuvik Recycling Society, that the advisory committee's mandate should include reviewing and making recommendations on project applications for money from the environment fund.

In order to be effective, Members would suggest this committee will need representation from stakeholders such as distributors, retailers, environmental organizations and not-for-profit groups and businesses involved in recycling, and would include some individuals with experience working on waste reduction and recovery programs. Members would also like to stress that this committee must have membership from small communities.

The committee would caution that while the advisory committee could play a significant role in the development of regulations, this should not be seen as taking the place of broader public consultation and communication, which will also be critical to the success of programs.

Because of the significance of these regulations and their impact on NWT residents and businesses, Members would also urge the government to consult with all MLAs before finalizing any substantive regulations.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask at this time that my colleague from the committee, Mr. McLeod, to continue with the report.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for the Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Members initially had concerns that the enforcement powers included in the bill might be somewhat heavy handed. As Mr. Massey stated with respect to the inspection and auditing powers, "the fact that power is there to use at their discretion with no forewarning, and all over the deposit refund money and how they are doing that seems somewhat overkill."

In particular, there were concerns that the maximum fine of $50,000 for violating the act was unreasonably high. For example, Members would not want to see a volunteer-run not-for-profit group fined $50,000 for inadvertently failing to complete the proper paperwork for a depot it was running.

However, Members heard from Mr. Jack Walker of Petersen and Auger that the enforcement provisions may not be strong enough. Mr. Walker's concerns are discussed in more detail in another section of this report. The committee also noted that other Canadian jurisdictions with mandatory recycling programs have similar inspection and audit powers.

Further, the Minister and department indicated that strong enforcement powers and heavy maximum fines are needed for deterrence in the case of large distributors that intentionally do not comply with the act and regulations. As a result, the committee was generally satisfied that the enforcement provisions in this bill are reasonable.

The committee notes that the bill would allow for specific penalties to be set in regulations, and would urge the government to consider whether smaller maximum penalties could be set in the beverage container recovery regulations for offences by depot and processing centre operators.

Further enforcement issues specific to the proposed beverage container recovery program are discussed in a later section.

exemptions
Special Committees

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Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The act allows for regulations to be made providing exemptions from the regulations. Questions were asked about why such exemptions would ever be appropriate. The department advised the committee that exemptions would only be considered in cases where distributors set up their own program which provides an equivalent level of environmental stewardship. The committee would suggest that any exemptions should be granted with caution and then only on the recommendation of the advisory committee.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The following are issues that were raised specifically with respect to the proposed beverage container recovery program.

costs
Special Committees

Page 1275

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Members and some witnesses suspect the government has underestimated the funds necessary to run this program. For example, the department indicated that it has budgeted approximately $10,000 per depot for setup costs. The committee asked several witnesses whether they thought this amount would be adequate, and heard that the costs of setting up and running a depot may vary significantly from community to community depending on who runs it, the availability of space, existing equipment, utility costs and the hours of operation. In most cases, costs will probably exceed $10,000.

Members would also suggest that transportation and handling costs are another area where more analysis and discussion are needed. For example, Mr. Greg Rowe from Tri-R Recycling in Hay River identified the need for adequate handling fees to be paid to the processing centres and depots in order to ensure they are able to run viable operations. More discussion is needed with stakeholders about what if any transportation costs would be paid out of the environment fund.

The committee had concerns about whether the department would be able to enforce the regulations within the estimated budget. Although the Minister indicated only one new full-time position is planned, Members question whether it is realistic to expect existing field staff to enforce this program in addition to their other responsibilities. At minimum they will require training which could in itself be a substantial cost.

administration
Special Committees

Page 1275

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Some presenters were very concerned about the administrative and paperwork burden that could result from the regulations. Ms. Judy Harder from Wrangling River Supply in Inuvik warned, "I see the paperwork looking a lot like GST.... it's really important not to give too much paperwork in addition, because with paperwork comes that additional cost and there's already a lot in a business."

Members are sympathetic to Ms. Harder's concerns, and would not want to see this program become an administrative nightmare with costs spiraling out of control. The committee would urge the government to consult in particular with small retailers, and groups and businesses that will be operating depots in order to ensure the paperwork required from them is reasonable and manageable.

enforcement
Special Committees

Page 1275

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Walker emphasized the need for the act and regulations to be strenuously enforced to prevent what he referred to as "bootlegging." One scenario he provided was a truckload of soft drinks or juice brought from Alberta into the NWT. The "bootlegger" would have paid the lower Alberta deposits, which would allow him or her to sell the drinks at a lower cost than drinks with the NWT deposit, and enjoy an unfair advantage over NWT businesses complying with the regulations. Depots would have no way of knowing the NWT deposit had not been paid on those containers, and so would pay for their return, potentially costing the environment fund thousands of dollars. Mr. Walker's fear, which the committee believes does need to be addressed, is that "an environment where legitimate wholesalers and retailers are at a serious price disadvantage will be created and we will not be in business for long given our slim margins, if this act and regulations are not carefully thought out and executed." Mr. Walker is also concerned that prosecutions under this legislation may not be a priority for either the GNWT Department of Justice of the federal Crown. The committee would like to stress that the government must be vigilant in finding ways to minimize the risk of illegal activities so that legitimate businesses are not put at an unfair disadvantage.

One potential solution suggested by our colleague, Mr. Brendan Bell, the MLA for Yellowknife South, is that containers could be marked in some way to show the NWT deposit has been paid. The Minister advised that this had been considered, but that preliminary studies had indicated marking all beverage containers would not be feasible. Members would suggest the Minister request the advisory committee to investigate all possibilities further.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask Ms. Lee to continue on with the report.

enforcement
Special Committees

Page 1276

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

need For Public Education
Special Committees

Page 1276

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some presenters spoke about how critical public education will be to the success of a beverage container recycling program, and underlined the need to have funds available for this purpose. While voluntary programs are already operating successfully in some communities such as Inuvik, recycling will be new for others. Mayor Evelyn Storr from Aklavik provided the example of people taking cans of pop out to their camps. "What they want to bring back is their muktuk and their fish and they do not want to bring back empty cans...We are asking people to try to change their lifestyle when we ask them to separate their garbage. Before, garbage was garbage."

The committee sees this as one of the reasons why it will be so important to have representation from small communities on the advisory committee, so that programs and education strategies can be designed to be as relevant to them as to the larger centres where recycling is already more common.

costs To Individuals
Special Committees

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

The department shared with the committee estimates of the costs to the average NWT household of the proposed beverage container recycling program. The estimates are $2.61 per month for households that return their containers to claim their deposits back, and $7.95 per month for households that do not return their containers.

The committee would like to remind the government that these are averages only, and that some households with more family members, or who consume more beverage containers than average will have higher costs. These costs may be significant for people with fixed incomes, and this should be reflected in the income support program.

what Happens To Collected Products?
Special Committees

Page 1276

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Members heard from Ms. Katherine Silcock, from the City of Yellowknife, that she has experienced a number of difficulties finding places in Alberta that are willing to take NWT waste products including pop cans and tires. The committee would urge the government to get to work immediately on discussions with businesses and governments in other jurisdictions in order to ensure there are places to send NWT products.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

The department indicated it expects that depots will end up taking in some containers that are sold before the deposits begin to be collected. Although this will be a cost to the environment fund, on the whole the result will be positive as containers will be recycled rather than going to landfills. The department will need to ensure depots are given startup funds that are adequate to cover any deposits they may have to pay out if containers have been stockpiled in the community for some time.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

The committee heard that some retailers in the NWT buy beverages from Alberta and are already paying Alberta deposits on them. Ms. Judy Harder was concerned that this will mean she and other retailers will have to increase their prices to reflect both deposits. The committee was, however, advised that NWT retailers may be eligible for refunds from the Alberta Beverage Container Recycling Corporation provided the beverages are not resold or recycled in Alberta. The committee urges the government to take steps to ensure that retailers pay only the NWT deposit on beverage containers, possibly including inter-jurisdictional agreements which would take the onus off of individual retailers to reclaim their deposits.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

The department assured the committee that if there is no group or business in a community that is interested in operating a depot, no one will be forced to do it. However, one witness, Ms. Barb Armstrong of AB Salvage in Inuvik, wondered about what would happen in the opposite situation, where there is more than one group or business interested in recycling. How will the government decide who has the opportunity to run the depot or processing centre?

The department will need to consult and communicate on this issue in the near future so that existing businesses and organizations will know where they stand.

location Of Processing Facilities
Special Committees

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

The Minister has advised the committee that Hay River, Yellowknife and Inuvik are the proposed locations for processing facilities. Members would recommend the government give some consideration to locating these facilities in smaller communities so they too could see some economic benefits from the program.

other Programs
Special Committees

Page 1276

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Presenters had a number of suggestions for future programs to deal with materials such as electronic waste -- also called e-waste -- batteries, used motor oil, construction waste and tires. These are all good suggestions which the committee hopes government will look at in future years. The possibility of programs targeted at industry, in particular resource exploration and development companies who have usually buried their waste or brought it to community landfills, was also discussed. Members hope this legislation will encourage all citizens, including corporate citizens, to be more proactive about reducing, reusing and recycling waste. Ms. Armstrong summed it up well when she said, "long gone are the days of solution to pollution is dilution...You bring it in, take it out." The committee would also encourage the government to consider how programs under this legislation might be tied with other environmental initiatives such as cleanups of old industrial sites.

Members hope that interested communities will be able to access money from the environment fund to undertake pilot projects. For example, Mayor Winnie Cadieux from Enterprise indicated that her community would like to enter into discussions with the government about potential reuse programs that could be located there.

conclusion
Special Committees

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

The committee was impressed with the number of private individuals, business people, and members of environmental groups who made submissions or came to speak on this bill, and who are clearly willing to do what it takes to make this legislation work. Members would encourage the government to take heed of the advice provided by these people, and to welcome them as partners in developing and implementing programs and regulations.

Bill 22 is only the first step, Mr. Speaker. As Ms. Erica Janes from Ecology North said, "the next government needs to be committed to this legislation and committed to the overall desire to protect our fragile environment." The committee very much hopes that this will be the case.

That concludes the report on Bill 22. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Member for Hay River North to introduce Bill 25.

conclusion
Special Committees

Page 1277

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Member for Hay River North, Mr. Delorey.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Introduction

Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development is pleased to report on its review of Bill 25, Municipal Statutes Replacement Act.

The committee would like to commend the work of the NWT Association of Communities and the department over the last several years to bring this bill before the Assembly. President Blake Lyons of the NWT Association of Communities informed committee that this review has continued through two territorial elections and at least three municipal terms. Members understand that municipal governments are looking forward to these long-awaited changes. As President Lyons stated, "Municipalities need adequate powers and discretion to deal with community needs now and in the future. The broader grants of power and discretion found in the proposed legislative changes will enable council to meet future needs."

The committee would also like to thank all the witnesses for their presentations and insights on this bill.

public Review
Special Committees

Page 1277

Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

The committee held public hearings in Inuvik on September 2, 2003, in Aklavik on September 3rd, in Hay River on September 8th, and in Yellowknife on August 26th, September 17th and 18th and October 1st. During the clause-by-clause review, which took place on October 1st, 52 motions to amend the bill were carried by the committee and concurred with by the Minister. Twelve of these motions were of a minor and non-substantive nature. The substantive motions are explained in the appropriate sections of this report. Following clause-by-clause review of the bill, a motion was carried to report Bill 22 as amended and reprinted back to the Assembly as ready for consideration in Committee of the Whole.

settlements
Special Committees

Page 1277

Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

The committee is very concerned that this bill does not include amendments to the Settlements Act, which it understands had been part of this initiative until very recently. The Minister and department advised the committee that these amendments were not brought forward because of a lack of capacity to draft the Settlements Act amendments at the same time as the proposed Charter Communities Act, Cities, Towns and Villages Act and Hamlets Act contained in Bill 25, as well as the proposed Tlicho Community Government Act. The Minister indicated that work has since been completed on the Settlements Act amendments, and that they would be ready for introduction early in the life of the new Assembly.

There are 20 communities that are incorporated under the three municipal acts listed above. Prior to 1999, that number was even higher as it included Iqaluit and the Nunavut hamlets as well. In contrast, there are only three communities incorporated as settlements: Enterprise, Fort Resolution and Colville Lake. The committee heard that despite the political strength of 20 or more municipalities, it took several years for Bill 25 to be brought before the Assembly. Will three small communities on their own be able to convince government to make their legislation a priority?

Further, the committee heard from Mayor Winnie Cadieux of Enterprise that the proposed amendments to the Settlements Act, which the Minister has said are now ready, may not adequately address the needs of those three communities. This also causes Members a great deal of concern.

The committee strongly recommends that the department consult with the three settlements on whether the proposed amendments to the Settlements Act will meet their needs; and further that the next government bring forward appropriate amendments to the Settlements Act in the early life of the 15th Assembly.

liability
Special Committees

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Bill 25 contains several provisions that will protect municipal governments from legal liability. This means that in some cases, people who are hurt, or whose property is damaged, will not be able to sue the municipal government for compensation. For example, one provision says that a municipal government "is not liable for loss or damage caused by snow, ice or slush on highways in the municipality, unless the municipal government is grossly negligent."

The committee understands that the NWT Association of Communities has been requesting these protections for years because insurance costs are constantly rising. These amendments would help to keep municipal insurance costs under control. The committee is also aware that all of the liability protections in Bill 25 are also found in various other Canadian territories and provinces.

Members gave a great deal of thought to these provisions. The right of people to go to the courts to get compensated for injuries or losses should never be limited or taken away lightly. Members were also concerned that municipal governments could take the liability protections as a licence to reduce levels of service and/or to be less diligent about safety. A related concern was that government could use municipalities' reduced legal obligations to justify providing them with less funding.

What most reassured Members that the liability provisions are reasonable was the information they received about the new insurance scheme being put in place for NWT communities. Committee was informed that this plan has a strong focus on risk management, and will reward communities that have a good risk management program. It is expected that this will in turn translate into safer communities. Ms. Yvette Gonzalez, from the Association of Communities, explained that, "the key words are responsibility and accountability. Under the program, because it is the members' program, the focus on risk is much higher. It is their dollars that remain in their fund for their premiums." This satisfied Members that in spite of the new liability protections, there will be a strong incentive for municipal governments to practice due diligence to protect the public from harm.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that my colleague from Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah, continue with the report.

liability
Special Committees

Page 1278

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. The chair now recognizes the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah.

employees On Council
Special Committees

Page 1278

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Bill 25 would have allowed municipal employees, other than managers, bylaw officers, or finance staff, to sit on council. The current Local Authorities Elections Act does not allow permanent full-time municipal employees to also be council members under any circumstances. Members and witnesses had a number of concerns about the conflicts that could happen in practice. Mayor Evelyn Storr of Aklavik gave the example of a clerk who receives payments for water bills on behalf of the hamlet, and who is also a councillor. As Mayor Storr said, "it all goes back to what the public sees and how the public looks at that...How could that person who receives cash from people for seven-and-a-half hours a day...the first person you see when you go into the office, sit on council and make decisions regarding the water rates?"

The committee eventually heard from the Association of Communities that all their members now agree no exceptions should be made to allow municipal employees to sit on council. During the clause-by-clause review, the committee passed and the Minister concurred with four motions which removed the provisions in the bill that would have allowed some permanent full-time municipal employees to sit on council.

long-term Financial Commitments
Special Committees

Page 1278

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Bill 25 defined long-term leases of one year or more as "long-term financial commitments." Municipal governments must meet the same conditions before entering into such leases as they do for long-term borrowing. This means that Ministerial and/or voter approval could be required for these leases.

The City of Yellowknife and the Association Communities told the committee that this requirement would be extremely cumbersome for both the municipal government and the Minister's office. Leases for vehicles, computers and photocopiers would need the same approvals as borrowing for large capital projects such as arenas and roads. Mayor Van Tighem of Yellowknife and President Lyons of the Association of Communities both suggested the definition of long-term financial commitment should be changed so that it includes only leases for terms of five years or more. The committee agreed this was a reasonable approach. During the clause-by-clause review, the committee and the Minister agreed to three motions to make these changes.

market Disruption Policies
Special Committees

Page 1278

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

A provision of great concern to at least one presenter, Councillor Kevin O'Reilly of Yellowknife, requires that before engaging in any commercial or economic development activity, a municipal government must have a market disruption and conflict of interest policy. The provision further states that municipal governments may not engage in these activities if they would cause a serious adverse effect to existing businesses. There are no such provisions in the existing municipal legislation, and the committee understands there are no such provisions anywhere else in Canada either.

Councillor O'Reilly suggested that this is an "unreasonable and unnecessary intrusion into the affairs of the municipal order of government." He went on to point out that there is already an accountability mechanism in place, as municipal councils go to the polls every three years, and the public reaction will be swift if a council is supporting activities that stifle the private sector.

Councilor O'Reilly also advised committee that these provisions would create serious operational difficulties. It is not clear what municipal governments would have to do in order to satisfy the requirements of the legislation. Bill 25 does not provide definitions of "commercial" or "serious adverse effect." Councillor O'Reilly set out several scenarios that demonstrate the problems these provisions could create. For example, the city typically rents out the swimming pool for children's birthday parties. The privately owned bowling alley is also rented out for birthday parties. Is this market disruption? The city offers a variety of courses. If the city offers an art class or a cooking course, would this be a commercial activity? Would it cause a serious adverse effect on a business that also offers a similar course?

The department has not provided any guidance or draft policies to municipal governments, and was not able to explain the rationale behind these provisions to Councillor O'Reilly's, or to the committee's satisfaction.

The committee wishes to make it clear that it does not support municipal government activities that cause market disruption or compete unfairly against the private sector. It is likely a good practice for municipal governments to have market disruption policies. It may even be necessary for a council's political survival. The committee's difficulty is with placing a requirement for a market disruption policy in legislation, without making it clear what standard a municipal government has to meet in order to comply with the act. It may indeed be impossible to legislate a single standard for market disruption, and definitions for key terms like "commercial" and "serious adverse effect" that would be appropriate for all NWT communities. That is why committee believes the issue of market disruption is best left to local councils, and ultimately to local electorates.

The committee passed six motions during clause-by-clause review of the bill, which have the effect of removing the market disruption policy provisions. The Minister concurred with these amendments.

unsightly Property
Special Committees

Page 1278

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Bill 25 included new provisions setting out a procedure for municipal governments to apply to the Supreme Court for orders to require people to clean up their property. This created confusion because the Environmental Protection Act already gives municipal governments the power to make and enforce unsightly property bylaws. The City of Yellowknife interpreted the new provisions to mean they could no longer rely on their bylaws, but would have to seek court orders instead, requiring a great deal more time and expense.

The Minister and department advised the committee that their intention was to provide a process for municipal governments that do not have unsightly property bylaws to obtain clean-up orders from the courts. The intention was not to override or replace the provisions of the Environmental Protection Act.

Because of the time and expense involved in obtaining court orders, the committee does not believe these provisions would provide a reasonable process for municipal governments. Members expect that in most cases a council could draft and pass a new unsightly property bylaw more quickly than it could obtain an order from the Supreme Court. The committee concluded that the provisions are at the very least confusing, and is likely of little real value to municipal governments.

The committee passed six motions with the effect of removing the unsightly property provisions from Bill 25. The Minister concurred with these motions.

imminent And Serious Dangers
Special Committees

Page 1278

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Members were concerned with the provisions which allow municipal officers to order people to provide labour, equipment or materials where there is an imminent and serious danger to public health and safety. The committee understands these powers were intended for emergencies such as structural fires and gas leaks. However, the committee noted that in the Civil Emergency Measures Act, and also in some municipal legislation elsewhere in Canada, there are provisions for people to be compensated in these circumstances. The committee and the Minister agreed to three motions during the clause-by-clause review of the bill which provide for municipal governments to pay reasonable compensation to a person ordered to provide labour, equipment or materials in an emergency, unless that person caused the danger to arise in the first place.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask that my colleague, the Member for Boot Lake, to conclude the report.

imminent And Serious Dangers
Special Committees

Page 1279

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

other Amendments
Special Committees

Page 1279

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Eighteen additional motions to amend the bill were passed by the committee at the Minister's request in order to address concerns brought to the department's attention after Bill 25 was introduced. These amendments have the effect of:

  1. Removing the provisions that would have allowed councils to appoint officers other than the senior administrative officer to report directly to the council.
  2. Removing the requirement for the Minister to approve bylaws providing for the remuneration of council members. There was a consensus that it should be up to residents to hold councils responsible and to take action if they believe the remuneration is too high.
  3. Providing that orders made by municipal supervisors apply to "employees or agents" rather than to "all persons interested in or affected by them." There was a concern that the original wording would be too broad and could include, for example, all the community residents.
  4. Continuing the requirement that each municipal land transaction be made in accordance with both a general land administration bylaw and a bylaw specific to that transaction.
  5. Requiring that the senior administrative officer attend and record at all council committee meetings. Bill 25 already provided for the senior administrative officer's attendance and recording at council meetings.
  6. Changing council's bylaw making authority from "wild and domestic animals" to "domestic and feral animals". This was to clarify the intention that the authority was meant to include stray animals, and not wild animals such as bears and wolves.
Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

The City of Yellowknife asked that consideration be given to removing the requirement for voter approval for long-term borrowing bylaws which are made in accordance with an approved debt management plan. The committee noted that although debt management plans require a public hearing process, they do not require voter approval. If the voter approval were no longer necessary for specific borrowing bylaws, there would be no mechanism for voters to veto a borrowing they do not want the municipal government to make. Members agree with the Minister and department that it is appropriate for voters to have an opportunity at some point in the process to approve or disapprove any borrowing and, therefore, did not support the city's request.

appeals To Council
Special Committees

Page 1279

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

The City of Yellowknife also raised concerns with the provisions that allow residents to appeal orders made by municipal officers to the council. The committee agreed with the Minister's stated intention to provide an individual with the opportunity to have council review an order requiring that individual to take remedial action. The committee also noted that the Association of Communities suggested this issue could be addressed in the implementation phase of the legislation. Members, therefore, did not support the city's request to delete or amend this provision.

remedial Orders
Special Committees

Page 1279

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

The Association of Communities and the City of Yellowknife both requested confirmation that the new provisions allowing municipal governments to issue orders requiring people to remedy dangerous situations would not affect the ability to issue other types of orders, such as cleanup orders under unsightly property bylaws or stop-work orders under zoning bylaws. The Minister confirmed the intention is that the ability of municipal governments to issue other types of orders, such as stop-work orders and cleanup orders, will not be affected by the new provisions.

balanced Budgets
Special Committees

Page 1279

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

The Association of Communities requested that a requirement to prepare balanced budgets be included in the legislation. The department proposed amendments that would have required municipal governments to prepare balanced budgets, except where impracticable. Although the committee supports the objective of balanced budgets, it had difficulty with the wording proposed by the department, and also did not see the necessity of including a provision in the legislation that would be confusing and clearly unenforceable. Members would suggest that directions for balanced budgets could be included more appropriately in guidelines.

conclusion
Special Committees

Page 1279

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

The committee is pleased that this long-awaited initiative could be brought forward in time for consideration by the 14th Assembly. Should Bill 25 be passed, Members would offer their congratulations to the department and the NWT Association of Communities, and wish them success in implementing their new legislation. Mr. Speaker, that concludes the report on the Governance and Economic Development.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Range Lake, that Committee Report 19-14(6) be received by the assembly and be moved into Committee of the Whole for consideration. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. We have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request unanimous consent to waive Rule 93(4) and have Committee Report 19-14(6) ordered into Committee of the Whole for today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to waive Rule 93(4) and have his report ordered into Committee of the Whole for today. Are there any nays? There are no nays. The report will be ordered into Committee of the Whole for today. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent. Just a minute, the chair asked for the report of standing committee. The honourable Member put up his hand and the chair recognized his hand. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. None. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. The chair now recognizes the honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 1280

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight wishes to report Bill 34, Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Agreement Act, back to the House for consideration in Committee of the Whole. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 1280

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a letter from the NWT Biathlon Association expressing opposition to the proposed recreation sport council. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. Item 13, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document entitled Business Credit Corporation, 2003 Annual Report. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Thursday, October 9th, I will move the following motion:

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for North Slave, that the Assembly hereby censures the conduct of the Honourable J. Michael Miltenberger, Minister of Health and Social Services, for the lack of attention paid to the residents of small communities in the delivery of health care programs and services and in particular the inaction in failing to address the inequities in the delivery of services in many small communities.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Motion 16-14(6). The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories has undertaken significant efforts over the past several years to ensure that the benefits of secondary industries related to diamond mining are enjoyed by Northwest Territories residents;

AND WHEREAS the benefits of secondary diamond industries include employment opportunities and other economic and social benefits;

AND WHEREAS despite the concerted efforts of communities such as Hay River, Fort Simpson, Inuvik and Rae-Edzo, all of the diamond cutting and polishing facilities are located in Yellowknife;

AND WHEREAS it is anticipated that De Beers diamond mine at Snap Lake will be in production by the year 2006;

AND WHEREAS the Premier has announced that he is confident that De Beers will honour a commitment for a Snap Lake of rough diamonds for processing in the Northwest Territories;

AND WHEREAS there is a strong need to support and enhance the economic and social conditions of all communities and regions through diversification of economic opportunity such as diamond processing;

AND WHEREAS whenever possible, our government should strive to ensure that the positive impact and benefits of resource development should be realized by a broad range of Northerners as articulated in our commitment to community economic development in "Towards a Better Tomorrow" and numerous other fora;

AND WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories was actively involved in the establishment of the existing cutting and polishing facilities through training and financial inducements for companies willing to locate in the North;

AND WHEREAS other communities also deserve the same amount of support in their efforts to identify and attract potential operators in the field of diamond processing;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River North, that the Government of the Northwest Territories, immediately undertake the development of a strategy to secure a stable supply of NWT mined rough diamonds of an economic size and shape for cutting and polishing;

AND FURTHER that the strategies must encompass communities outside of Yellowknife to ensure the distribution of direct and residual benefits as widely as possible;

AND FURTHERMORE that the Government of the Northwest Territories ensure that this strategy is adequately resourced to provide assistance and support for communities wishing to participate in the secondary diamond industry.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. We have a motion on the floor. To the motion.

An Hon. Member

Question.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause

Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Sahtu, that Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We have a motion. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The chair counted two in favour and two opposed. In the opinion of the chair the vote is tied. Order, please. The chair would just like to caution Members that when a vote is taken, it's a serious matter. The chair recognized a tie, therefore, the chair has to break the tie. The chair will vote in favour of the motion. Therefore, in the chair's opinion, the motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 32 has had first reading. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. The chair recognizes the honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Sahtu, that Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004, be read for the second time.

Mr. Speaker, this bill makes supplementary appropriations for the Government of the Northwest Territories for the 2003-204 fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

We have a motion on the floor and the motion is in order. Is the House ready for the question?

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 32 has had second reading and, accordingly, stands referred to Committee of the Whole. Item 19, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 21, Protection Against Family Violence Act; Bill 33, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003; Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004; Bill 22, Waste Reduction and Recovery Act; Bill 24, Midwifery Profession Act; and Committee Report 18-14(6), Social Programs Report on the Review of Bills 21, 24 and 26, with Mr. Krutko in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

I call Committee of the Whole to order. We have several items to deal with: Bill 21, Bill 22, Bill 24, Bill 25, Bill 33, Committee Report 18-14(6), and Minister's Statement 89-14(6). What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I recommend that we continue consideration of Bill 21, followed by Bill 33 and then Bill 32 and then if we have time, we could get into consideration of Bill 22 and maybe even Bill 24, along with Committee Report 18-14(6). Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Okay. So we will continue with Bill 21. Does the Minister wish to bring in his witnesses?

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Roger Allen

Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I will bring in witnesses.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree?

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Sergeant-at-Arms, escort the witnesses in.

For the record, Mr. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses?

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Roger Allen

Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to my right I have Janice Cooper, legal counsel, legislation division; to my left, Lucy Austin, senior advisor for family law directorate. Thank you.

Clause By Clause

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, witnesses. We are on Bill 21, page 14, clause 19.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 20.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Bill as a whole.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree that Bill 21 is now ready for third reading?

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 21: Protection Against Family Violence Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Bill 21 is now ready for third reading. I would like to thank the Minister and his witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the witnesses out.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

As we agreed, the next item we are going to deal with is Bill 33, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003. Mr. Handley, do you have any opening comments? Mr. Handley.

Minister's Opening Comments

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, Supplementary Appropriation No. 4 requests authority for additional appropriations of $569,722 for additional operations expenditures for departmental over-expenditures.

This request is being made to comply with the authorization process for over-expenditures of appropriations, occurring in the 2002-2003 fiscal year, as provided for in the Financial Administration Act, as follows:

  1. $213,000 for the Department of Health and Social Services for expenditures incurred for the provision of non-insured health services on behalf of the federal government.
  2. $206,000 for the Department of Justice for the additional expenses incurred due to the retroactive application of the new job evaluation of correctional worker positions.
  3. $150,722 for the Department of Transportation for additional expenses incurred for 2002-2003 but not paid as of March 31, 2003.

Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to review the details of the supplementary appropriation document.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

At this time, I would like to ask the Minister if he will be bringing in any witnesses.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Yes, I will, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses in.

For the record, Mr. Minister, please introduce your witness.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, with me is Lew Voytilla, secretary to the Financial Management Board.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1282

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments? Detail?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Clause By Clause

Department Of Health And Social Services

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

We are dealing with Bill 33, clause by clause, page 5. Health and Social Services, operations expenditures, not previously authorized, $213,000.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Not previously authorized, $213,000.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Page 5, Bill 33, Health and Social Services, operations expense, total department, not previously authorized, $213,000. Agreed?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Department Of Justice

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Justice, operations expenditures, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, $206,000. Agreed?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized, $206,000. Agreed?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Department Of Transportation

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Department of Transportation, operations expenditures, corporate services, not previously authorized, $150,722.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized. Return to page 1 of the bill. Bill 25, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003. Clause 1.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 2.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 3.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 4.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 5.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 6.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Clause 7.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Schedule, vote 1, operations expenditures, total supplementary appropriation for operations expenditures, $569,722.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total supplementary appropriation, $569,722.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Bill as a whole?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree that Bill 33 is now ready for third reading?

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 33: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Bill 33 is now ready for third reading. I would like to thank the Minister and his witness.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

As we agreed, the next bill we will deal with is Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004. At this time, I would like to ask the Minister introducing the bill if he has any opening comments. Mr. Handley.

Minister's Opening Comments

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1283

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2 requests authority for additional appropriations of $11,844,726 for operations expenditures and $5,776,000 for capital investment expenditures.

Major items included in this request are as follows:

  1. $4.7 million for the Department of Health and Social Services to allocate funding to priorities identified by the department under the health accord funding announced by the federal government earlier this year. Of this amount, $1.2 million is for new capital investment for the health boards.
  2. $2.6 million for the Department of Health and Social Services for the additional costs associated with the settlement of an agreement with specialist physicians.
  3. $1.8 million for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development for additional fire suppression costs incurred due to severe forest fire conditions this summer.

The major request for capital investment expenditures is $3 million for the Department of Transportation for phase II of the Mackenzie Valley winter road bridge building program. Total expenditures under this phase of program will be $5.7 million over two years, of which the total net cost to the GNWT will be $1.9 million. The balance of the costs will be cost-shared with the federal government and private industry.

Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to review the details of the supplementary appropriation document. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1284

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

At this time, I would like to ask the Minister if he will be bringing in any witnesses.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1284

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Yes, I will, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1284

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree that the Minister bring in his witness?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1284

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1284

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort in the witness.

For the record, Mr. Minister, please introduce your witness.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, with me is Lew Voytilla, secretary to the Financial Management Board.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, witness. We are dealing with Bill 32. General comments. Mr. Dent.

General Comments

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I couldn't help but notice in the Minister's opening comments, they often indicate when we are looking at supplementaries that there will be no impact on the overall fiscal position of the government because the request for supplementary appropriations are within the supplementary reserve that was approved when we approved the mains. I am wondering if the Minister could advise us if we were to pass this supplementary, it would be still be within the supplementary reserves approved in the main budget.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board, Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, yes, with the approval of this supplementary request after removing out the non-cash items, we would have slightly less than $1.5 million left in the supp reserve.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister then provide us, based on what we've seen in previous years and in supplementary appropriations No. 3 and No. 4, how much over the supplementary reserve does he think we will be or does he believe we can finish the year with two more supplementaries and stay within that $1.5 million?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board Secretariat, Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we still have several months to go before the end of the fiscal year. If this is a typical year, then I would expect that we're going to be short on the supplementary reserve or we'll go over it. I would estimate another $5 million. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Looking, for example, at Supplementary No. 4 that we just concluded, that would tend to indicate to me that it would be difficult for us to do another two supplementaries in this year and stay within $5 million. Does that indicate that the Minister has embarked or had the government embark on a cost savings program or has he found some new revenues? I guess just an indication of how he intends to try and keep expenditures within that $5 million over budget.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we have built $5 million more into our fiscal forecast. So this is already in the forecast. We're expecting that this year's not going to be different than the other ones. Second is, we did earlier this year ask departments to identify $10 million through economizing measures. We have also further asked them to identify another $5 million that they would not spend in order to help balance this out. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask if the Minister could give us a little more detail. He just indicated that some months ago he embarked on a $20 million cost savings exercise and he indicated that the departments were asked to find $10 million worth of savings that would do minimal impact on service levels where possible, another $5 million savings was asked of the departments to come up with some lower-priority areas if they could and there was still another $5 million that leaves to account for in the $20 million exercise. Can the Minister give us some indication of where he expected that other $5 million in savings to come from? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister responsible for the FMBS, Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, generally, the $5 million that we've asked to be found comes from three sources. First, there's about a $1 million savings on interest charges; second, there was a double entry in the contribution to the Housing Corporation worth about $1.4 million; and we have asked the departments to try to lapse the balance, about $2.5 or $2.6 million.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Further comments. Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

I just want to make sure I'm clear. That's the other $5 million that brings us to $20 million. So we had $10 million the departments were initially asked to come up with, another $5 million in savings and then the $5 million you just spoke of, which was interest charges, the Housing Corporation double entry and the request that the departments lapse some money. Is that right or am I confusing the $5 millions? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley. Mr. Voytilla.

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Voytilla

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member's right, we did initially start to say $20 million. We were able to identify $10 million with direct savings and the Member will recall that we took that out of the departmental budgets in June in Supplementary No. 1. That was actually removed from their spending authority. There was another $5 million that we were going to get from targeted savings and the Minister's just recounted where we expect to get that. Then there's $5 million that we were hoping to achieve through a tightening up of our supplementary appropriation reserves. We've not been able to achieve that for the reasons that have been explained to the Members and the committees because of the forest fire season this year where some of those items are in the supplementary, too, that we will go through as we proceed through the bill. There were more unavoidable supplementary requirements than we anticipated, so we were not able to achieve the final $5 million. Our only savings are $15 million.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, deputy, for that response. That was my recollection was that of the $20 million, $5 million was coming from a reduction in the supplementary reserve. We'd talked about this $20 million and I remember at the time thinking that was not real savings, this is an accounting exercise. We can't very well take credit for a $20 million savings when $5 million of it is really just reducing our supplementary reserve and here and now we come back and realize that because of the spending pressures we weren't in fact able to do that. I just wanted to clarify that and make sure that I understood that. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, that's correct.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few comments on this supplementary appropriation. I guess a few concerns that I have about the amount of the supplementary when we consider the overall financial situation that our government is in and how we continue to see more money going into areas that may be questionable as to how really badly in need they are. My first question, I guess, would be to the Minister on one of the major items that he listed in his opening comments, $1.48 million Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development due to a severe fire season.

I wasn't aware that we had such an exceptionally severe fire season this year. I know that we had a few fires around, but I also know that we budget a fair amount of dollars for fire suppression over the years. Have we drained our fire budget so much that we have nothing left in there to fight fires so that now we have to come forward with supplementary appropriation? What has constituted such a severe fire season?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister responsible for the FMBS, Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, this year was a more severe fire season than we've seen for a number of years. This year, the amount spent on fires was almost $28 million compared to $20 million last year and $21 million the year before. So this was a more severe year than we've had. Most of the over-expenditure would have occurred with the late fire that we had in the Norman Wells area. There was a fairly large fire that threatened Norman Wells from the north side and accounted for a lot of the over-expenditure, but this year was exceptional going right back to at least 1999 and possibly several years before that. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Further comments, Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on this fire suppression budget, what would our normal costs be if we didn't have a fire at all in the Northwest Territories in the summer? I know that we have some contractual expenditures that we have to have, but if there were no fires at all for a summer what would be the bill to this government?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

If we had had no fires in 2003-2004 our costs would have been $18.6 million. Those are pre-suppression contracts that we enter into with ground crews and aircraft contracts and other pre-suppression work we have to do including community protection, purchase of supplies and so on.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, also another area that was quite evident as we went through this supplementary, the extra expenditures in Health and Social Services, and there will be more questions, I'm sure, as we go through this. Of all the extra expenditures in Health and Social Services it's been extremely hard to find in there any dollars that are actually going to patient care. There is an awful lot of money identified again in here in information technology and this is something that is before us all the time. When we come up and look at different supplementaries, the costs just continue to go up in IT. Could the Minister identify, out of the Health and Social Services supplementary, how much of that money is actually going to patient care?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, first of all, with the additional funding for the specialists that's $2.5 million. That we would have to count as being direct patient care. In addition to that there are a number of other expenditures, on telehealth, for example. That would be direct patient care from the telehealth centres, $250,000. A nurse practitioner program, $277,000. Mental health workers, $276,000. The 1-800 call centre for this year, $431,000. In medical equipment, I'm not sure, I'm assuming that's probably a combination of things, but certainly a percentage of it would be for direct patient care, $1.7 million. Then there was another $800,000 that the department identified for each of the health boards and that was cleared specifically for direct patient health care. Mr. Chairman, I haven't totaled that up, but I believe that probably comes to somewhere in the neighbourhood of $5 million out of the request, or more.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Further comments. Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, I'm going to cut my comments off there. I'll probably have some more questions as we go through the supplementary. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd just like to ask the Minister what happens to the revenues we collect from sending our firefighters, our water bombers, out to BC, the United States, wherever there's fires? How much do we get in revenues this year from those kinds of fire suppressions?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, along with other provinces and territories, we have what's called a MARS agreement, which means that we mutually agree to provide services to each other in the case of extreme fire seasons at cost. So any of the revenues we would get from our crews fighting outside of the Territories would go to cover our actual cost of providing that service. Those funds are accounted for in the forest fire management budget. How much we spent this year, I'm not sure, but Mr. Chairman, I'll refer that to the Minister of RWED. He may have information on what it was that we collected this year. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of RWED, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We haven't really completely got the complete information yet because of our support that we sent down to BC until very recently. So I don't have the complete figures at this point. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the reports are not completed, are we expecting any revenues to this government from fire suppression for the summer? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we have done an estimate, and I don't know off hand, the Minister of RWED may know, of what amount we would have included in here and netted that off from this request here. There has been an estimate. I don't know what it is that the department expects to get back, but it would have been included in the...I'm sorry, we just found it. It's $2.66 million that we have estimated as what we're getting back and that has been netted off from the $1.8 million that has been requested by the department. That amount is already received. If it's considerably different then there may be some revenue, plus or minus, on that.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you. So we don't have all the information, but we know we need $1.8 million. How does that work? You don't know what you're getting for revenues, but you know how much you're going to need to off-set the cost for the supplementary. That's amazing. You said, may be included. It puzzles me. Is it included or is it not included? Maybe doesn't assure me that it is in there.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, if I said maybe it's included I didn't mean that. We have netted off $2.66 million. Now, we don't know exactly what that number will be. It may be exactly $2.66 million when we get the final bills in or it may be slightly less or more. At this point, our best estimate is $2.66 million is what we would have taken in from our workers working in other jurisdictions through the MARS agreement.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just a few comments in this area and it's unfortunate that we're actually dealing with this bill in the sense that we just heard earlier that the room, and I guess it was qualified, that there is maybe $1.5 million worth of room left back in our supplementary reserve and we're six months into the year. That's a concern for me. I guess the other one is, is that amount included with the liabilities we take on by some of the transactions we do? Because some of the transactions are cash in/cash out or just an accounting of an amount or liability. Is that amount a reflection of the liabilities placed on this government as well? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear what the Member means when he talks about liabilities of this government. We have built into our fiscal forecast an additional $5 million to carry us over for the next six months. In that sense it's already built into our fiscal framework. If that's what the Member's referring to as liabilities, then yes, we still have some room there. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Not necessarily liabilities such as environmental or cash liabilities, but from my understanding of what we're presented with is that the total amount of this, including non-cash in or cash out transactions, would be over $1 million over the supplementary reserve. If we included the total amount of transactions. Whether it was actually cash transferred from one department to another. Is that the case?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Voytilla.

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Voytilla

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we said, on a cash basis there's $1.5 million left in the supplementary reserve, but in our fiscal forecast we've recognized that that will not be adequate to see us through to the end of the year, so we've estimated in the current forecast for this year that the supplementary requirements from now to the end of the year will be $5 million. So, not $1.5, but $5 million. We trust that will be enough to see us through. That $5 million reserve remaining for the year is built into the $77 million deficit forecast for 2003-2004.

If you factor in the non-cash transactions, which are accounting entries to record the transfer of some assets, then the supplementary reserve on a non-cash basis would be actually $1.5 million over spent today. But we don't have to come up with the cash to meet those non-cash obligations. They're accounting entries, so we don't normally take them into account when we figure out much flexibility we've got in our supplementary reserve.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can continue to be educated, I guess, in the process of accounting and the numbers and so on. Aside from that, Mr. Chairman, there are a lot of entries in here that talk about, as we heard one of the Members raise, the information technology area and software and devolution. A few things like that. We've just six months ago passed a budget, main estimates developed on business plans were reviewed by Members and we went through IT scenarios with departments. Already, I guess, the fact that it's coming forward in a supplementary means that they're over-expended in those areas already or did they miscalculate something or is it absolutely necessary that a lot of these come forward or is it something that can sit and wait until there's actually cash available? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, a lot of the IT money that we're spending is to a large extent fine tuning our requirements in that area. The biggest expenditure, by far, is in the health care field and that is taking advantage of funding that has been made available to us from the federal government. In that case, we are enhancing or updating equipment. The others are fairly small and it's more fine tuning our IT. Thank you.

Detail

Legislative Assembly

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments. Detail. We're dealing with Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004, page 5, Legislative Assembly, operations expense, Office of the Clerk, not previously authorized, $243,000.

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized, $243,000.

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Department Of Executive

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Executive, operations expenditures, Financial Management Board Secretariat, Directorate, not previously authorized, $1.71 million. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps we could get a bit of an explanation for why the Housing Corporation would be purchasing residential property to rent out on a non-subsidized basis. I don't recall this being a situation that I've heard of happening before.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, in late June Cabinet made a decision to transfer responsibility for the remaining staff housing units to the Housing Corporation in order to consolidate our housing mandate into the one agency. The amount of money here, $1.71 million, is not cash, but rather a grant in kind. Sorry, $2.1 million. It is a grant in kind. It isn't cash, it's for the value of those housing units that are transferred to the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not aware though of the Housing Corporation having at this point, it's never at least been presented to us at committee or in any other forum, that the Housing Corporation had a mandate to rent units to the public on a non-subsidized basis. Is that something that's new?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1287

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, yes. When the Housing Corporation gets further into this it is a new activity. Up to now, the Housing Corporation has focused on social housing and various programs to help the private sector or individuals buy housing of their own. The ability of the Housing Corporation to do this is certainly within the parameters of their legislation. Again, this would be a new activity for them.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

I'm quite surprised at that; this sounds like a fairly major change in policy. Why was there no discussion with Regular Members that this has happened? Why is it taking until some five months later that we're finally hearing about it?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1287

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, there's been volumes of discussion on this over the past four years. The issue is the challenge of getting housing into small communities. When the government got out of staff housing we expected the private sector to step in. There have been various initiatives to try to get their interest in it. It hasn't worked. This is not a major policy change, this is simply taking housing and moving the responsibility from FMBS over to the Housing Corporation. No policy had to change on the Housing Corporation side. It's an activity that when they get into it will be new for them, but it fits within their legislation. They are already, as I mentioned before, responsible for social housing and they have also had various programs to assist people to purchase housing from EDAP to MDAP to various other programs. To some extent, the Housing Corporation has already been in, in a different way, the private housing market. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1287

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

It's a bit of an arcane argument, perhaps, but I guess I would argue that it represents a substantial shift in the activities of the Housing Corporation. Maybe there were volumes of discussion, but it was never presented to a standing committee that the mandate of the Housing Corporation was going to be exercised in this way. As the standing committee normally is responsible for oversight of the activities of the department or the corporation, one would have expected that the Regular Members who are charged with that oversight would be made aware of a substantial change like this.

I think one of the areas where this raises a whole concern is about whether or not there is now going to be adequate policing to make sure that there is no interference in a market where there might be a private entity. This government is on record as saying it was getting out of staff housing to support the development of the rental market in smaller communities. It's had programs to try and make community corporations and communities take on the provision of housing for teachers and nurses and so on, but we have never actually had the Housing Corporation going in and providing rental housing as this seems to be proposed.

How do we know the program is going to be exercised in such a way as not to provide competition to the private market that we've been trying to foster for the past five or six years?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1287

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Dent's jumping ahead a little bit here because all that has happened so far is a transfer of the remaining staff housing units over to the Housing Corporation. That's 25 housing units that have been transferred to them. The Housing Corporation will be responsible for renting those units, selling those units, whatever they will do with them, at a no cost to the government basis. They will not be subsidized.

At the same time, the Housing Corporation has been asked to do a needs assessment of the housing needs in the non-market communities. That needs assessment is coming forward. Once we receive that needs assessment then there will be an opportunity, and I'll make a commitment on behalf of the Minister and myself, to bring that forward to a committee.

Clearly, this is within the parameters of the legislation of the Housing Corporation. They have been in private housing already under a different arrangement through the various down-payment assistance programs and so on. The needs assessment that is being done is only for non-subsidized housing. It's not a continuation of the programs on social housing. There's opportunity for the committees to be briefed before there's ever a major initiative in this area. All we're doing here, though, is moving the staff housing over to the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1288

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, if that's all we're doing then why do we have in here, in the schedule, the words "for the purpose of renting out the units to the general public"? It sounds to me that the decision has already been made about how the process works. This may be the right thing to do. I can't say it is or isn't because it's never been presented to me the arguments for why this is happening. I'm not trying to enter into that argument right now.

My point is that this is a change in the operations of the Housing Corporation. It may be good, but I don't know at this point in time because it's never been presented to me. My point is, I've been involved in the Assembly for 12 years and I don't recall the Housing Corporation undertaking this kind of operation. So if it's new, I would think that it would be something that would be presented to the Members of the Legislative Assembly.

Now, it could be presented to us with all sorts of fan fare as the best program since sliced bread, but it shouldn't be presented to us through the back door in a supplementary. It should be coming to us up front to discuss the policy. That, Mr. Chairman, is my point here. Not whether it's a good program or a bad program. The fact is I'm offended that we're hearing about it for the first time in a supplementary appropriation.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1288

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I think I understand the point that Mr. Dent's trying to make. All I'll say is that these 25 housing units, the ones that were left, were on the responsibility of FMBS. They have now been transferred over to the Housing Corporation. Certainly we will put down as renting out the units to the general public. I hope that's what the Housing Corporation does with those units, that they don't just have them sit there empty. I don't understand Mr. Dent's point on that one. We want to have some revenue out of them. We want to also meet the housing needs in those non-market communities. So, that will happen. I don't see any big changes. The Housing Corporation, in fact, has been for a number of years now doing the property management for FMBS. It wasn't managed through FMBS, it was routed through the Housing Corporation. So there's no big shift here. All we've done is transferred the ownership of those units from the government over to the Housing Corporation.

In terms of, will this be the best program since sliced bread? That's possible. We don't know that yet, Mr. Chairman, until we see the needs assessment on non-subsidized housing. I hope it's the best program that we could put together on the housing.

Mr. Chairman, I don't see this as a big policy shift. We don't know for sure yet until we see the needs assessment. We'll bring that back to the committees and at that point make a decision of whether or not it's reasonable to proceed with it or whether it's something that we should shelve. Thank you.

Financial Management Board Secretariat

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Financial Management Board Secretariat, directorate, not previously authorized, $1.71 million. Mr. Roland.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the same line of questioning. To transfer approved appropriations for transferred housing to the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation as follows: operations expenditures, $926,000; amortization expense, $154,000; total of $1.8 million. Then they've got down listed as a negative. Can you tell us why it comes in as a negative amount?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1288

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, because that money is moving out of the FMBS budget over to the Housing Corporation. So it's money coming out of this pocket. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1288

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you. I'm interested in this item as well. The Minister indicated that this is not a big policy shift and in fact made the case that all we're doing is moving the staff housing responsibility from FMBS to the Housing Corporation. But I'm sure, or maybe I should ask, the record of decision coming out of Cabinet would just indicate that that's all that was going on with the shift of responsibilities. It wouldn't be a directive or an allowance for the Housing Corporation letting them get into the renting out of units to the general public in non-market communities on a non-subsidized basis? Because whether that's right or wrong, I'm not saying it's wrong, it may be, as Mr. Dent's indicated, a very good idea, but that in my mind is a policy shift. There's a record of decision coming out of Cabinet that that be what the Housing Corporation should do going forward, then that is a big policy shift, I would think.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1288

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, first of all, let me clarify. This is not a transfer of staff housing. We got out of staff housing years ago. We haven't been in staff housing for years. What we had were some 25 housing units that are left over from the old days. Those have been owned by the government. Those housing units are being transferred over to the Housing Corporation and they're expected to rent those units or, if they have no need for them, to sell them. But they will manage them. That's just a transfer from FMBS over to the Housing Corporation.

In terms of the Cabinet direction, basically Cabinet direction was to...Cabinet or FMBS? FMBS direction, actually, not Cabinet. FMBS direction was to transfer the units over to the Housing Corporation and for the Housing Corporation to come back once they've done the needs assessment. I don't remember exactly what it was, but that is in effect what FMBS has asked for. The needs assessment should be coming forward shortly.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1288

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Let me ask if the establishment policy for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation includes rental to the general public or does it just specifically mention social housing?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

No, Mr. Chairman. Their legislation is broad enough to encompass assisting with outside of the social housing area and they've already been doing that, particularly on the house purchase side, for the private sector. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Let me also ask about the stipulation that this be in non-market communities only because we have a concern about disrupting the private market. If it's non-market communities only, can the Minister give me an indication, say for instance, what we've decided Fort Simpson or Rae-Edzo might qualify as. Are those non-market communities?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the only communities that are considered to be market communities are what are referred to as level one communities. That includes Inuvik, Yellowknife, Fort Smith, Hay River. Those would be the four. All the others are non-market. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Fort Simpson and Rae-Edzo are non-market. We don't have any sense that there might be a concern that developers who are trying to build housing to sell in Fort Simpson and Rae-Edzo are going to have a problem with the Housing Corporation getting into this business?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the purpose of the needs assessment that FMBS directed the Housing Corporation to do was to look at questions like that. To look at the needs. To look at the supply and give us information on whether or not it would be needed for them to go into the housing in those situations.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Well, hopefully developers are listening and will recognize that there's a new player in the business in town with deep pockets. I guess my biggest concern might be that this didn't come before committee for some discussion because if it did, certainly I would have pointed out the fact that we'd just been through an auditor general report with a pretty good look at the Housing Corporation and it pointed specifically to the fact that if you look at the ability of the Housing Corporation to collect rents in public housing units, they're not able to collect public housing rent. They really aren't. I don't want to say it's criminal the amount of money they're able to collect, but it's appalling.

If you look at the reliability and the track record of the local community when they get involved, whether it be LHOs or bands doing this, they're much more able to collect rents. I think somewhere in the 90 percent range of collection. I would have made the point at committee that maybe it makes more sense for us to look at involving the communities in meeting this need through LHOs, through bands, as opposed to having the Housing Corporation do it. I don't know if that's been considered, but I was never able to make that argument and that point in committee.

So here we are with the policy having been made already and decided on without that kind of input from committee. Right or wrong and if it's something that's easily discounted that the housing could have done that in the meeting, now we won't know. I won't have that opportunity. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley, do you want to respond?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, first of all, let me say that there has never been difficulty on collecting the rent on these housing units that are owned by government and have been rented out. The Housing Corporation has been collecting the rent and it's not the same situation as with the social housing or low-income housing units and the difficulties that we have there. That's a different situation altogether.

In terms of not having an opportunity, I think the opportunity still exists. As I have said before, when the needs assessment is done we would bring this back to the committee and that's where it's meaningful. We'll have the needs assessment and know whether or not it's worth it or necessary for the Housing Corporation to go into the non-market communities. I, too, hope that the private sector, construction industry and so on are listening and that if they want to go build houses in Lutselk'e and Deline and Rae-Edzo that they would take up the challenge and move in there and build the houses and manage them without the Housing Corporation to go in. That has been our objective all along. If they want to show us that they can do it through the private sector, I think that's the ultimate goal we want anyway.

In the meantime, we have provided over the years incentives and encouragement for the private sector, for municipal governments, for local corporations to get in the business. They have not done it in any big way. They have not found that there's the return that they would like to see on their money. In order to be able to deliver progress and provide housing for staff we're prepared to do it in the interim until the private sector can do it and we'll do it through the Housing Corporation, not directly through the government. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

I just want to be clear. I think the Minister said to provide housing for our staff. I just wanted to make sure that we're, in fact, talking about general public and not our staff. That we're not back into staff housing. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, of course we would provide housing to the public if there is someone in the public who wants to rent a house, but I have to say that of immediate concern to us is being able to find housing to accommodate people who are providing programs and services for us. Because we've heard over and over again the difficulties that people have, teachers have, nurses have and so on in getting housing in communities that's suitable. We have to look at this from both sides. Do the rest of the public need housing? Yes, I'm sure there are people there and, yes, we would through the Housing Corporation make housing available to them in a way that is not subsidized by government. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1289

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Okay, thank you. I'm almost out of time here, so I would just like to thank the Minister for that because the document that we have in front of us states that this is for the purpose of renting out units to the general public. The Minister has just clarified that and said we're really talking about, as first priority, as people providing services. So that wasn't the discussion we had, but I'm glad he's clarified it. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1290

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley, do you want to respond to that?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I guess I consider our staff to be part of the public, too. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1290

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Just the last point is, I think if our government was to go to private developers and offer leases for staff housing, long term guarantees, and say, build us some staff housing, we'll pay you to do it, I'm sure they'd be more than interested. I think the concern comes when it's on spec for just the general public. Then it is hard to get developers to go into smaller communities and take the risk. If there's no risk, I'm sure we can find people to take no risk. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1290

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, as long as the private builders can do that and do it in a way that is affordable, then I'm sure that we wouldn't object to that. Up to now, we've made those offers and the private builders have not taken up the offer. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Nitah.

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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I must agree with this initiative. Since the government got out of staff housing I don't know how many umpteen millions of dollars it's cost this government in recruiting and retaining staff in our communities. We don't know the untold consequences on our students that have repeatedly, year after year, found themselves short of teachers. There's no continuity of teachers. Nursing professionals are not staying long enough to know the long-term care needed in the communities. I don't know how many lives that might have cost. We don't know what kind of effect not having the same teachers to teach the students over and over again have on the students and how the students turn out and what the net cost in the areas of the social envelope will be.

We've been outside the staff housing for a number of years and no private developers have taken on the challenge of providing houses in these communities. Now that the government's trying to do something to address that major problem, we seem to have some people who are concerned.

I would like to ask the Minister a question, though, regarding the needs assessment. When will this be done so that we can start ensuring that there are houses available for government staff working in our communities? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I'm told that we should have that needs assessment in our hands within the next two weeks.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Nitah.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, is the needs assessment also looking at the cost associated with what I was discussing earlier, the recruitment and retention of our staff, teachers, especially, and nurses; the social costs of not having staff that are coming back year after year to teach our students, et cetera? Or are we just looking at the market in the community? The market in the community is important in my mind because the rent scale should be based on the market and not what will be created as a market. I'm afraid that if we use third party people to do this thing the cost will go up. If the cost goes up, the cost to the renters will go up. Any time the high cost of living in the communities, as we've demonstrated clearly that's the case, then we have to factor that in as well. Will it be the market of the community and not what it might mean to a private entrepreneur or private enterprise trying to make a buck here? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the objective is to get affordable rent in the communities. So we believe that that can be done. The assessment that is being done is looking at the availability and cost-effective housing that people can afford in the communities. It doesn't look at recruitment costs and other factors including students not doing well in school because of high teacher turnover. Those issues are beyond this study. We are just looking at the availability and cost of housing in the communities.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Nitah.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe we need to do a study on that to justify these initiatives if there are going to be some reactions to this initiative that are not positive, to date. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

That's more of a comment, but if you would like to reply, Mr. Minister.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, maybe someday it would be needed to do that, but I am sure having a lot of turnover does have a negative effect on students. It has a negative effect on communities if they are without positions because there is no housing available whether it's in the private sector or public sector, wherever it may be. Mr. Chairman, some day that may be necessary. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1290

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Executive, operations expenditures, Financial Management Board Secretariat, directorate, not previously authorized, $1.071 million.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total, Financial Management Board Secretariat, not previously authorized, $1.071 million.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized, $1.071 million.

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Department Of Finance

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Page 1290

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Finance, operations expenditures, treasury, not previously authorized, negative $1.475 million.

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if we can get an explanation of how the implementation of the self-insurance plan is going to work and how we would wind up saving this money on it.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, under the system that will be followed, the GNWT will self-insure or assume the risk on the first $10 million of property risk. This is cumulative in that it could be several incidents that would total up to that. After that, we would have insurance. By doing it this way, we realize a savings of $1.641 million. But in the cost of implementing the loss/prevention risk control program, we are estimating about $165,000, resulting in a $1.475 million savings to us.

Under the old program, our premiums would have been over $3.6 million compared to now being approximately $2 million. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

If I understand it then, if we have 20 fires and each one is worth an average of $500,000, that totals $10 million in a year. The first $10 million we just pay for the replacement ourselves. We don't put in a claim for insurance. So that's up to $10 million a year that we could be spending out of our pockets in replacing fire damaged...The balance then. After $10 million, is there any deductible? Say there's a fire and the damages are worth $1,000, do we just put in for $1,000 and get that or is there a deductible? Excuse me, let me start again. Is there a deductible that would reduce the amount we would receive in claims after $10 million?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, first of all, we would say our loss history has not been such that we would be seeing $10 million a year in losses. So there's a savings there. So I think our losses have been somewhere closer to $4 million on average. So it's unlikely we are going to, hopefully, see $10 million losses happening.

Once we reach that $10 million mark, if we had that kind of misfortune, there is no deductible after $10 million. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That amount the Minister just gave us on the losses that we have averaged in a year, is that the net amount after we receive...Right now, the existing program, or before this comes into effect -- maybe it already has -- anything over $1 million is claimable under insurance. So is that amount you gave us on average losses including the amount we receive back from insurance companies to replace facilities burnt, or is that just straight losses? Thank you.

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Page 1291

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Page 1291

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the amount I gave is the gross loss. Under the old program, we were liable for the first $1 million on each loss. But the number I am giving you is the gross loss we have seen on average.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Delorey.

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Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this self-insurance program, could I get a little detail on how that's going to be set up? Are we going to start a fund that we would use to pay claims or losses from or will we always see expenditures in that coming forward as a supplementary appropriation? Is it the government's intention to set up a fund to recreate their own insurance program?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we will not set aside a fund from which to pay these. We will expense them as they happen. If there is no urgency, that would go into the capital planning process. If there is an urgency, then you might very well see it in a supp. But with our current fiscal situation, we wouldn't set aside a fund.

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Page 1291

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Finance, operations expense, treasury, not previously authorized, negative $1.475 million.

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Page 1291

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1291

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized, negative $1.475 million.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1291

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1291

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized, negative $1.475 million.

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Page 1291

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Department Of Public Works And Services

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Page 1291

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Public Works and Services, operations expense, management, not previously authorized, $36,000.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1291

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Petroleum products, not previously authorized, $732,726. Mr. Bell.

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Page 1291

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister reconcile for us the net book value and the market value that was put on the facility and explain how the market value was arrived at?

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Page 1291

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Voytilla.

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Voytilla

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When disposing of this asset, we went out and got a market appraisal because our policy is we have to record it as a grant-in-kind, the fair market value of the property. So we had to determine that. We did retain an appraiser who went and appraised the property using two methods; the cost approach, which showed a fair market value of $780,000 and then they did the income approach, which showed no value and we blended the two approaches to come up with an estimate of what would be reasonable as a fair market value and arrived at a $390,000 fair market value for the tanks, and then there was land and other components that were transferred to get you to the $523,000 fair market value. The reason that showed as a grant-in-kind is because that is our estimate of the value of the property transferred to the business. The additional loss of $209,000 is to get us from the fair market value up to what the book value was of the asset on our accounts because we have to clear the entire asset off our books as it's no longer owned by us. So that's the reconciliation.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister indicate if there is cleanup required now in the takeover of these assets? Is there a required cleanup that has to be undertaken? Can the Minister explain what kind of liability comes with this and what the government's exposure might be and what the expectation is that EGT will do now that they have the facility?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, yes, there is some environmental remediation necessary. Part of the agreement is that Gruben Transport, the purchaser, will clean up or do this work within seven years. In the event that they don't, then the government has the right to clean it up and bill the charges to them.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Can the Minister indicate what he believes the cost of the cleanup would be?

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Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

The estimate at this time is $550,000.

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Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

What about requirements for additional capital investment? Are we requiring in the contract any additional capital investment to be undertaken by EGT?

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Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we don't require the upgrading of the facility, but if we had kept it in order to keep it up to code, it's estimated it would cost us $1.6 million.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Okay. So we don't require the capital upgrade, but when we met in March in the House, Mr. Lafferty was asking...Maybe it was Mr. Krutko asking the question -- yes, it was -- and Mr. Aumond answering on behalf of the department said that with respect to Tuk, the cleanup itself was estimated to be $500,000 or $600,000. Then he goes on to say it's worth noting that once that cleanup happens it's going to be incumbent upon whoever undertakes that cleanup to undertake a code upgrade to the facility, which is going to be a $1.5 to $2 million capital investment required on top of the cleanup. So the total cost will be to the GNWT or, in this case through EGT in Tuk, and you look at those two together, you are looking at a $2 million commitment minimum after taking possession of the tank farm. Are we saying we are not requiring that capital investment or it's just a suggestion on our part or a good idea? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, anybody who has property has to meet the applicable codes, so there is a code requirement probably for it, but as part of this agreement, we don't have any requirement. That doesn't excuse them from code requirements. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Petroleum products, not previously authorized, $732,726.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1292

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total department, not previously authorized, $768,726.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1292

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Department Of Health And Social Services

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Health and Social Services, operations expenditures, ministry and corporate services, not previously authorized, $325,000. Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Maybe we can have the Minister of Health and Social Services explain what the $325,000 is for. Is this forced growth that's been approved by the department, or maybe some explanation? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the purpose of the $325,000 is to provide funding to the Dogrib Community Services Board for short-term working capital while the longer-term operational plan is being developed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Page 1292

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

So is it a bailout? It looks like a bailout. We are wondering what happened. Can the Minister explain?

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, as was the case in other situations similar to this, the health board has run into an operational deficit. The government will consider some sort of plan to help the recovery from the deficit, but there's a requirement for them to do a long-term operational plan that will give us some comfort that we are not going to find ourselves back in the same situation again right away. So in the meantime, this $325,000 gives them some working capital to continue operations while they finish that long-term operational plan to get themselves out of difficulty.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1292

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

That's a better explanation, but I just think it's interesting to remind ourselves that the last time we had a bailout situation of the health board, it was questioned by Regular Members and they would insist that this would be the end of the bailouts and we were going to hold boards to the higher standard, ensure that they were able to account for their spending and that we were not going to be in the business of bailouts anymore and there was a new sheriff in town. Apparently we have not entirely passed the year-old bailouts. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I will refer that one to the Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the broad view, we've been successful with all of the authorities to date and the Dogrib Community Services Board has worked very diligently to try to keep their costs in place. I want to point out that this is a unique situation where about five years ago or so, the government made a decision to create a community services board that brought together education and health and social services. Part of the commitment was they were supposed to do a review after three years, which has yet to take place. What we've discovered as we investigate this and look at it in more and more detail is while the Dogrib Community Services Board has some program issues, there are some other fundamental structural issues that have to be looked at in the longer term, which is what Mr. Handley referenced. There are some fundamental cost issues that have been driving the Dogrib Community Services Board costs.

Two of the amendments are the ambulance services, since they don't have an airport and they have to have means to transport their people to Yellowknife should the need arise. The other one is, once again, as we investigated this further, there's been historical under-funding on the administration side, which has also caused them to run a deficit. We have a circumstance where we have on one side of the equation of Health and Social Services and Education, a deficit on one side of the operation and a surplus on the other.

That's part of the broader review that has to take place. How do we rationalize these concepts? In the meantime, the cost drivers of the ambulance services and administrative costs require an adjustment to the base and a longer-term issue will be dealt with once the review is done and we get a clear look as a government if we are going to continue on the concept of community service boards and what we have to do to bring them together effectively right from this Assembly down to the communities where the services are provided in terms of the ability to do their budgets, common chartered accounts, legislation that allows them to do those types of things.

So this is a unique circumstance and one that we've been working long and hard on with the Dogrib board trying to resolve. This is one of the steps along the way. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We seem to be seeing this amount every year. There is a trend now. We know it's under-funded. They are still playing catch-up because they are a new board. Why don't we start budgeting them for what they actually spend? We've seen that three years in a row, how much they are going over-budget. Somebody should have seen the light by now that they are under-budgeted and we should have made allowances for that in the business plans instead of seeing it in a supp. Why wasn't this done?

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Page 1293

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we don't really know they are under-funded or how much they might be under-funded until we see the long-term operational plan that they are putting together. Once we have that, we will know whether or not this is a structural problem that needs to be fixed with more money in their budget. But until then we don't know.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess they will never know once the agreement is signed, it will be out of their hands. Will the department be looking at all these issues, so this doesn't happen to other authorities that we create like the Sahtu board or a new board in Hay River or wherever? Shouldn't we be looking in the future, so that we fund these boards the right amount of money? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

That's right. We do have to look at it with each board. We do expect boards to have operational plans and if they run into difficulties, we expect them to come forward with a plan that shows us either how they are going to get out of it or the circumstances that led to that situation. Each of these boards is unique, so I don't think one blanket plan can cover them all. So each of them are expected to do their own operational plan.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't ask the Minister if he could do one blanket plan for everybody because we know the regions are different. The cost of providing services are different everywhere. Not everyone has low costs to go to the hospital for services like they do in the larger centres. So there is, of course, a big cost. We've identified that in 2000, ambulance services cost a lot for Rae-Edzo and the Dogrib Community Services Board. We knew that then. Why didn't we budget for that? Why three years later are we using the same excuse for supplementary funding? We should have dealt with that. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1293

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we are working with the board. We want them to do that long-term operational plan. Once that's done, it will identify what the cost-drivers are like the ambulance services and so on and adjustments can be made. In the interim, what we are doing is providing them with some capital to keep their operations going, but we expect that long-term operational plan will help them put it together.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

I just want to give the Minister advice that maybe he should be looking at it and giving them the funding that they need, whatever the problem is. It makes the authorities look bad when they have to come back to the House all the time for extra funding. There are a lot of responsible boards out there and when they come back for extra funding, at the fault of the department because they under-fund them, it looks bad for them. So we shouldn't be looking at this every year. We have people in place that should be able to help them with this funding. We are accurate to almost a penny when we see information here, but still we can't see the picture that we are under-funding them. It's hard to believe. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Yes, Mr. Chairman, and that's what the operational plan will help to clarify for us. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1293

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Health and Social Services, operations expenditure, ministry and corporate services, not previously authorized, $325,000.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1294

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1294

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Program support, not previously authorized, $1.076 million. Mr. Roland.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1294

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Earlier today, I was asking the Minister of Health and Social Services questions around the setup with the regional health and social services authorities. In this area, there's a $499,000 amount that talks about salaries and benefits for new administrative and management positions, accounting software, public administrative contracts, leasehold improvements, staff recruitment, relocation and other information provided by the Minister tells us that on an annual basis commencing in 2004-05, the total projected administrative cost for the Sahtu will be $6.1 million and these will be offset by a savings in Inuvik of $5 million resulting in a total incremental cost of a $1.1 million annually. Savings will not be realized in Inuvik in the 2003-2004 fiscal year. The Sahtu authority does not become fully operational until April 1, 2004. Until that time, Inuvik still has the responsibility for the service delivery and management. I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, in light of this information, the $5 million savings they are talking about, is that from existing positions already distributed throughout the Sahtu region?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I will refer that to the Minister of Health and Social Services.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Yes, it is, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It says that three of the 12 positions for the Sahtu are being transferred from Inuvik. Is that the total number of positions that are coming out of Inuvik and there won't be any further transfers in the fiscal year or after April 1, 2004?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in keeping with the questions of the Member in the House earlier today, there are three admin positions and that's all that are going to be moved.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, in fact, after April 1, 2004, there will be no other transfer of positions out of the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Authority.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

I am assuming the Member means to the Sahtu, just to be very clear. If that's the case, then, no.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Roland, could you clarify your question?

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, it identifies 12 positions and then in the further information here, it says savings will not be realized in Inuvik through this fiscal year, but as of April 1, 2004, it becomes fully operational. So I would like to know and have it confirmed that after it becomes fully operational, there will be no other positions transferred out of the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Authority.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, there are no plans for any movement of staff other than those three to the Sahtu or anywhere else outside the Inuvik region that I am aware of.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

The Minister is being slightly evasive. There are some concerns over here. There is a concern that he might be being evasive. I am sorry. Mr. Chairman, the Minister earlier today had indicated that he had been working on this for some 18 months, working on the creation of this new health board for 18 months. Could the Minister confirm that this plan has been in the works for a year-and-a-half or so?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1294

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this process initially started back in January '02, I believe it is, when the action plan was put on the table. There was lots of preparatory work being done. We got approval-in-principle to do the work to be able to reach the point where we could go to Cabinet for a specific decision subsequent to that to go to FMB with the detail of all the work that's been done. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the committee appreciates a lot of the good work that's been done and that has come out of that action plan. My concern is about the budget process here and if we have known for 18 months or two years that this was coming down the pipe, why didn't we have discussions about this when we reviewed the business plans or the mains or some discussions that there were options that were as of yet unfunded and we were trying to get money together to do these? As it happens now, we are talking about half a million to establish this board and $1 million a year extra incremental funding ongoing. This is a discussion that never happened at committee, never happened in the regular budgetary process. It's not a surprise, we've known this was coming for some time. The Minister must have been working on the costing of this for some time. Why didn't this go through the normal process? Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we were working on the detail that carried on past the budgeting process. We had a committee in place from the region that had staff people and local representatives and staff people, as well as from the Inuvik region. The work wasn't complete in time. We didn't have the detail. We didn't go to Cabinet for the final approval until May. We didn't get FMB approval until August. We had to keep working on the numbers and the costing and the interim financing arrangements. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you. Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Is some of the new money that we've received from the Government of Canada through the health accord being used to set this up? Is this new money from the federal government? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

No, it isn't, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can certainly appreciate that people in the Sahtu region are interested in taking on their own responsibility for managing their own programs and services; that makes sense. But obviously there is a cost to this. We've just talked about what that cost might be. I am wondering if the Minister is concerned that we won't be able to afford this on an ongoing basis. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the issue of a sustainable health and social services system is one of concern to us all. On the governance side, which is the issue in terms of setting up the board, what will be coming in early in the 15th Assembly will be the discussion of the role and future of boards and agencies and whether we should use an approach like the community services board, should we have any board at all, should there only be a couple? We've seen the discussion around the Stanton board, for example. So it's going to be a discussion that's going to carry on past the life of this Assembly. I don't have the final answer on the governance side.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There's been some discussion earlier today that this may have come about because of self-government negotiations processing. Would the Minister agree that this new structure is being created in order to meet the requirements that we have in bringing forward self-government?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would agree that that is definitely one of the factors.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Bell.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Premier -- it's reported in the media anyway -- wrote a letter to the Inuvik Drum on January 16th indicating that the new board was being considered because of self-government talks that created a regional authority through the Inuvialuit and Gwich'in. I hope this was being reported accurately. I am wondering then if the Minister would characterize this as an incremental cost of self-government.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that case will be made as the negotiations proceed, as the Members of the 13th Assembly will remember, the incremental cost with the federal government is very difficult. In the meantime, we are seeing a lot of pressure there. It was there because of self-government. We are proceeding to fund this with our own resources. It's also part of the political and program evolution that has taken place across the North in the last decade or so when you look at how regions have become more self-sufficient. Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated that the health accord funding isn't new. Can he remind us about the health accord funding, if it's ongoing, how much in total it is and where it has to be spent?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I didn't catch the first part of the question; I'm sorry.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent, could you rephrase your question?

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to get a reminder of the health accord funding, what the program encompasses.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the health accord money carries us through from 2003-2004 to 2007-2008, and for 2003-2004 it's $13 million and then going each year after that to 2007, it is $8.6, $11.3, $6.7 and $8.0.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could we get an idea of how much of the money that we are looking at in terms of health accord funding is then being allocated to operations expenditures? Since it's being sunsetted, I just want to know what challenge we are going to be facing here in three or four years as the money disappears.

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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, for the 2003-2004 year, $3.315 million is spent on O&M incrementally.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Dent.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1295

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the items on this page that particularly intrigues me is the $277,000 for an increase in the nurse practitioner program. I think this is the program that many of us are quite anxious to see expand in the Northwest Territories. I was wondering if we could get an idea of how many more nurses we can see with this $277,000 in this fiscal year and what are the plans in the subsequent years to increase their numbers in the Northwest Territories.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1295

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1295

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, the $277,000 allows for additional intakes to the 16-month program. We anticipate 24 nurses in each intake into the program over the 2003-2004 through to the 2006-2007 time period.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1296

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Braden.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. An area that I don't particularly care to delve into in great detail because I am not a great fan of it is information technology. A lot of it, quite frankly, escapes me. But I do try to look for value for money, Mr. Chairman, and there are a couple of things in this area that I just really felt compelled to inquire into.

There is one item there, Mr. Chairman, under program delivery support, a bit of information is described for $25,000 to portable training and laptops and projectors for the vital statistics project. I would start to asking, Mr. Chairman, what is the vital statistics project? Thank you.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1296

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Handley.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1296

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I will refer that question to the Minister of Health and Social Services.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1296

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1296

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't have my earpiece in. The question on the $25,000 I caught, but I didn't catch the...

---Interjection

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1296

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

...information systems that are very old, very inefficient. We have significant problems doing the work that's required. The plan is to upgrade the systems; vital statistics is one. I can tell you, as Minister, there is a lot of concern about the ability to do the job with health care and birth registration and such. So the intent is to get the systems upgraded and have the equipment to in fact get out there and train people.

Bill 32: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004
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Page 1296

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

At this time I would like to rise and report progress. I would like to thank the Minister and his witness. I will rise and report progress.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 1296

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

The House will now come back to order. May I have the report of Committee of the Whole. The Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 1296

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 21, Protection Against Family Violence Act; Bill 33, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2002-2003; Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2003-2004, and would like to report that bills 21 and 33 are ready for third ready. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 1296

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. May we have a seconder for the motion? The honourable Member for North Slave seconds the motion. We have a motion, the motion is in order. All those in favour, please signify. Thank you. All those opposed? Thank you. The motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 21, third reading of bills. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Allen.

Bill 26: Youth Justice Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

Page 1296

Roger Allen

Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Weledeh, that Bill 26, Youth Justice Act, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Bill 26: Youth Justice Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

Page 1296

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We have a motion. The motion is in order.

Bill 26: Youth Justice Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

Page 1296

An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 26: Youth Justice Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

Page 1296

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Question has been called. All those in favour? Thank you. All those opposed? Thank you. In the chair's opinion, the motion is carried. Bill 26 has had third reading. Item 21, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, may we have the Orders of the Day.

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Page 1296

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, a meeting of the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight at adjournment and also at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, and at 12:00 noon tomorrow of the Board of Management.

Orders of the Day for Wednesday, October 8th:

  1. Prayer
  2. Ministers' Statements
  3. Members' Statements
  4. Returns to Oral Questions
  5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
  6. Oral Questions
  7. Written Questions
  8. Returns to Written Questions
  9. Replies to Opening Address
  10. Petitions
  11. Reports of Standing and Special Committees
  12. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills
  13. Tabling of Documents
  14. Notices of Motion
  15. Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills
  16. Motions
  17. First Reading of Bills

- Bill 29, NWT Business Development and Investment

Corporation Act

- Bill 30, An Act to Amend the Official Languages Act,

No. 2

  1. Second Reading of Bills

- Bill 28, An Act to Amend the Official Languages Act

  1. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Bill 22, Waste Recovery and Reduction Act

- Bill 24, Midwifery Profession Act

- Bill 25, Municipal Statutes Replacement Act

- Bill 32, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2,

2003-2004

- Committee Report 18-14(6), Report on the Review of

Bill 21, Protection Against Family Violence Act, Bill 24,

Midwifery Profession Act, and Bill 26, Youth Justice Act

- Committee Report 19-14(6), Report of the Review of

Bill 22, Waste Recovery and Reduction Act, and Bill 25,

Municipal Statutes Replacement Act

- Minister's Statement 89-14(6), Infrastructure Canada

Commits $65 Million to NWT Resource Highways

  1. Report of Committee of the Whole
  2. Third Reading of Bills

- Bill 21, Protection Against Family Violence Act

- Bill 33, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4,

2002-2003

  1. Orders of the Day

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Page 1297

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 1:30 p.m.

---ADJOURNMENT

The House adjourned at 6:05 p.m.