Thank you, Mr. Minister. Oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I too will continue on with questions to Mr. Handley with regard to community capital infrastructure in a lot of our small communities. Mr. Speaker, one of the challenges we face in a lot of our small communities is the lack of infrastructure in our communities to do the job that's at hand. As an example, Mr. Speaker, we had a situation where we had a water crisis in Fort McPherson, when we had to provide two water trucks for the community. The process went through for the vehicles, but there was no planning in place to look at infrastructure that would house these vehicles once you've got them in the community. All the other infrastructure was occupied. That's an example of how poor planning takes place. I'd like to ask the Minister what we do in regards to ensuring that this type of infrastructure is in place when the requirement is there.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for the FMB, Minister Handley.

Mr. Speaker, each time a department comes forward with a program need, then there is a need at the same time to ask the questions about the capital needs that will come along with that program. If there are times when we have an operational need, whether it's to park a vehicle and we haven't built a shelter for it, then we have a breakdown in the process, or it could even be that a deliberate decision was made to buy the equipment anyway and try to make do without that shelter. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that's a good example of the criteria that we use as a government. We have the protection of people, the protection of assets, and also ensuring that we have the adequate resources to carry them out. The whole area of protection of the asset itself is that you can't have a vehicle or a piece of equipment that we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on, sitting outside. We have to find a way of ensuring that we extend the life of that equipment by housing it. So I'd like to ask the Minister again, through the capital planning process, what do we do by way of ensuring that all bases are covered so that you don't have a situation where you get an asset dropped off in a community with no place to house it?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, we don't want to see that kind of thing happening either, otherwise we aren't protecting our assets or our investments. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope those things don't happen. If they do happen then they should be brought to our attention, and it's something we have to deal with in FMB. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the whole point I'm trying to get at is that there is very poor planning because input from the community and input from the department, and then input from headquarters to FMBS lacks linkage. I think it's important, Mr. Speaker, that as a government we do a better job of ensuring that consultation takes place so you can catch these things that are unforeseen. I'd like to ask the Minister exactly what we're doing to ensure that the input that we get from communities and municipalities is meaningful input, that they are listened to and that the directions that are being given are acted upon.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, as Minister Steen has mentioned, we are undertaking a community consultation process. We aren't just going to follow through, I don't believe, with just a letter from the Premier. We will have people from MACA and from FMBS go out to the communities and talk to them about what it is they want. We will include all of the stakeholders in the community. We will have the people who are going out talking to communities prepared so the questions are consistent. We will give them feedback on what we heard and go ahead with it.

Mr. Speaker, often it isn't just the government. It's the communities, as well, who sometimes will say we want that piece of equipment, as an example. If we can't get the shelter to protect it, we still want that piece of equipment, we'll find a way to look after it because we need it. So we don't get all the pieces fitting nicely together. Mr. Speaker, what I'm taking to FMB soon will be a much more thorough consultation process than we've ever had before. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary question, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's good to hear the Minister talking about doing a whole consultation process. There's a committee that was established through this legislature in regards to the non-tax-based communities. We actually did that. Yet we're waiting for answers back from this government as to how we're going to see the improvement of the whole delivery mechanism to small communities by this government. So I'd like to ask the Minister of Finance how soon he can report back on that recommendation by the non-tax-based communities.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, the committee gave us an interim report. We will be providing some interim responses to it. We'll do that within the 120 days that they had asked us to do it. We will look forward then to having the completed report from that committee. In the meantime, we have taken the interim report from that committee and have taken the information they provided in there and tried to use that to build a better capital planning process. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Time for question period is ended. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to the Opening Address. Item 10, replies to the Budget Address. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Mr. Krutko's Reply

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regards to the Budget Address that was given by Mr. Handley, I feel that we as a government have to ensure that we are accountable for public expenditures. Again, Mr. Speaker, my concern is that we are awfully close to hitting our $300 million debt wall, by way of some $80 million. Being a former Member of the 13th Assembly and having to go through a majority cost expenditure by way of unforeseen cuts to our budget from the federal government, and then we find ourselves with having to make some major unpopular decisions by way of doing away with certain departments and amalgamating other departments into one single department, and then also looking at the overall problem of dealing with division.

Yet, Mr. Speaker, one thing that we've learned from that process -- or I should say we haven't learned from it -- is that when we spend ourselves out of a deficit or figure we can continue to spend with no idea of what will happen, the million dollar question is what happens when we do hit the debt wall of some $300 million? Will the federal government come to bail us out or increase our borrowing limit to exceed the $300 million?

My concern right now is that with the borrowing limit we have of some $86 million, in one bad fire season we could be looking at another $20 million to $30 million. We've had major problems with replacing assets. During the 13th Assembly we had some major fires in which we had to replace two schools, and on top of that the cost of operating the government is continuing to rise. We see the high increase in the cost of diesel fuel and gas and other products that are out there, which is out of our control because it's based on the world market. Yet it's a cost that we will have to deal with when it confronts us. Especially in the Northwest Territories, we are not immune to the price of diesel fuel. We depend on diesel fuel for the operational costs of a lot of our communities, the generation of power, and also the overall running of the government as we know it. There again that's another unforeseen cost adding to the $86 million.

Mr. Speaker, I think it's important that we seriously look at this deficit situation in light of exactly how as a government we cannot continue to generate revenues by taxing the residents of the Northwest Territories, by increasing the tobacco tax or the diesel fuel tax or the costs associated with personal income tax or corporate taxes. There is only a limited amount of room that you can tax in any area. Yet, Mr. Speaker, I am concerned, especially in the area of the $300 million limit that's put on us. Right now we're at some $220-odd million, with $86 million to spare.

Yet, Mr. Speaker, I have to state that we have seen some movement in other areas, especially in small communities through the efforts of the non-tax based communities. There was an interim report filed in this House that recommended some changes to this government, and I'm glad to see that the government has taken up the non-tax-based communities' recommendations to implement certain dollar amounts in the capital budget, in regards to the $1 million, in regards to the overall chip seal program for main streets in non-tax-based communities, and also looking at another $1.7 million to look at the whole area of housing projects, and also looking at the $1 million to assist communities with community sport projects and ensuring that the communities are able to develop their youth initiatives with skating rinks or ball diamonds or youth centres. But I think it's not enough. We have some 27 communities we have to deal with, and it is going to take a while before all communities will be able to access this program. Yet, Mr. Speaker, like I said earlier, it is a start and I believe we have to build on that.

Another area where I have a lot of concerns, Mr. Speaker, is the overall area of our economy. We have a lot of things happening in oil and gas development. We talk about a pipeline, and diamond developments are going on in the Northwest Territories and the secondary industries. Yet, Mr. Speaker, I feel that we have to ensure that we have the legislative teeth in place to protect the people of the Northwest Territories, and also protect our environment and protect our resources so that they are not exploited and our environment is not exploited by these developments that are taking place. I feel that we have to do more to tell the federal government that these are our resources and these are our diamonds. We have the oil and gas and the other materials that are out there, regardless of non-renewable resources that we have. We have a lot of potential in the Northwest Territories. But we cannot let ourselves be put in a position where we have those non-renewable resources exploited, and then, as the government waiting to take on those resources, finding that we don't have the economic or social resources to really deal with the impacts that come from those developments.

We have seen a lot of developments come and go. During the 1920s we saw the Norman Wells expansion in regards to the find in Norman Wells, the Canol Trail, and development of a pipeline through the Yukon. Then, also, back in the '60s and '70s we had a major oil and gas boom up in the Mackenzie Delta, Beaufort Sea and the Mackenzie Valley. Again we're talking about a Mackenzie pipeline. Then we got into the diamond era where we have major diamond exploration and developments in which major finds have been made. The North has gone through a history of developing the economy in the Northwest Territories, then realizing there have also been a lot of negative impacts that come from that. I think we as the people of the North and as a government are not immune to those impacts of major developments where you have a major influx of people, and then where you have a major downturn in development when the development has happened and it declines.

Yet, Mr. Speaker, a lot of our communities have seen the impacts, have had the effects of those impacts, regardless of whether it's good or bad. We have to find a mechanism to ensure that we have the resources, but also that we have the people in place to assist our communities, to know that we have the capacity in our communities to take on these developments and also have the resource people to assist not only on the economic side, but on the training side and dealing with the social impacts that come from these developments.

We have a lot of potential in a lot of our communities, yet a lot of communities feel threatened by development because they have been bypassed either by industry or even by government. A lot of decisions are made at the top and are made knowing that those decisions will have an adverse effect on communities, and the people in small communities who still live a traditional lifestyle of hunting, trapping and fishing.

Mr. Speaker, most people in our communities do not have a university degree, or in most cases not even a high school degree. Yet, Mr. Speaker, people are able to sustain themselves by having a traditional skill that very few of us have the advantage of, and that's to survive in the North and also sustain yourself by hunting, trapping and fishing, which is an activity that this North has been built on. Yet, Mr. Speaker, I feel very little activity or responsibility of this government has been focused in that area. We're too focused on the bigger issues, looking at major diamond finds or major pipelines or major hydro developments. Yet, Mr. Speaker, we have to realize that we are here representing the people. The people are the people in the small communities, people in the larger regional centres and the people here in Yellowknife. But you have to have a balance that will ensure that the well-being of the North as a whole benefits, regardless of how that development is going to take place.

One thing that I haven't seen much of in regards to this report is one of the priorities we put forth for the 14th Assembly, which was ensuring the completion of land claims implementation and negotiations. There has been very little done to ensure that the implementation of these land claims agreements is carried through. I am referring to the wildlife agreements.

Most of the provisions in land claims agreements are wildlife arrangements, management arrangements, looking at the management of the land and resources, and also ensuring that aboriginal people and communities will be consulted fully about any developments. My concern is that we are looking at some major developments that are going to take place, and these land claims agreements have not been implemented by this government. It's crucial that those claims be implemented prior to any major developments taking place. I feel that this government has the sole authority to legislate those agreements into place. It is this government's responsibility to legislate them. Not the parties that are out there, it's this government. I feel that this government is lacking in that area, and we have to ensure that before any government, regardless of whether it's this government, takes ownership or control of our resources through a political or northern accord, that those land claims obligations be lived up to. We cannot wait another 10 or 20 years before we see these land claims agreements implemented, yet this government goes around stating how they have a working relationship with aboriginal government, yet we cannot even implement agreements we signed with First Nations governments. I feel that that has to be a priority of this government, and we have to move on it knowing the implications that pipelines and other major developments will have on aboriginal lands, the aboriginal people, and especially the wildlife and the environment in the Northwest Territories .

Mr. Speaker, one thing that really catches my eye in this report is that under the social agenda it talks about improving our social conditions in regards to realizing the dream for a better quality of life for all Northerners. I have a real problem with that. I hate to state that I see a lot of our elders suffering in our communities. We see a lot of our elders who have put a lot of years in with this government and who are now retired or semi-retired, barely making a go on their pensions. Also in regards to the whole delivery of programs and services; we've established programs and services, but what we're seeing is that the regulations and criteria that we use are either so rigid that you can't get into it, or it's so controlling that once you get into it they dictate to you how you're going to run your lives. Is that the purpose of regulations or policies or procedures put in place for this government? I don't think so. I think it was there to assist and improve the lives of people in our communities, and especially our seniors.

We have programs out there that put seniors in a position where they're afraid to assist in community activities or community public institutions, because of the effects that has on their income and also accessibility to government programs and services, because of taking in other income by way of per diems or honorariums they may get from sitting on an elders' committee or maybe a local band council, or even just a community council structure. Yet, that is an asset that we cannot lose sight of. They have a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience, and they've lived a life that they've seen the ups and downs and they've had to make tough decisions during their lifetime. I feel very disappointed and annoyed that this happens in this day and age. We're spending hundreds of millions of dollars on the bureaucracy, but when it comes to the people on the ground we are not doing anything to improve that quality of life that we talk about.

People are suffering in our communities. A lot of people are going hungry in our communities. Yet as a government we continue to...All we hear is mega projects and mega bucks, and let's go to Ottawa with hat in hand. I think maybe it's time that Ottawa really nailed us with the hammer and said look, guys, you get $1 billion for some 40,000 people, where's the money being spent? Seventy-five percent is spent on the bureaucracy for delivering programs and services, why is that?

I think we have to somehow really take a good look at the size of government and the size of delivering these programs and services to 40,000 people. As long as I've been here, two terms, every time I've come here looking through a budget process there are always increases in the bureaucracy. There are always dollars to increase the delivery from the bureaucracy. Yet when it comes to elders' programs and services, they've been capped for six years. There has been no increase in programs and service delivery for actual on-the-ground programs, no increase to those amounts and those set dollars that we put in place, to ensure that they are really serving the people of the Northwest Territories, and serving the seniors and the people in our communities who really are suffering because of bad policy or bad programs that have never really seen an increase or seen a program really looked at to ensure if it's really doing what it's set out to do. If it's not, what are we doing it change it?

I raise the concern in regard to the way we analyze the income program for the seniors' fuel subsidy. The way it's developed now, it's based on previous tax year's reporting. In a previous year, an elder could have been healthy and maybe they did do some extra sewing, or they made some extra money by sitting on some boards and agencies, or they translated at a public meeting. Yet if a senior became ill during that period, the next year we cannot catch it under the existing program. What we are finding is a lot of our seniors who cannot function as well as they did a year before because of old age or whatever, we're not taking that into account. I feel that we as a government have to really re-think how we deliver these programs and services.

One thing that also caught my eye is the whole area of social assistance payments continuing to fall since 1989. Have they really fallen, or has it really been the Government of the Northwest Territories forcing the individual to get off welfare so it makes it so tough you can't get back on to it, or that they have basically forced individuals to a point where they've just given up on government social assistance and have gone elsewhere? One thing that you find is that certain criteria dictate if you're on social assistance and you get a part-time job, you're off it for three months. So with the criteria that are being used, that's why the numbers have dropped. It's not because the need isn't there, it's because of the rigid criteria that we have used in delivering this program and how it's being implemented and how it's being interpreted for people to use it. I think it's important that we really look at the program itself, and see exactly if it has really met the need, or has it hindered development in a lot of our communities because of tough rules that you have to follow to even fit into this program.

I think the intent might be great, but you have to realize that in all regions of the Northwest Territories we don't have development. We don't have large-scale developments where you can hire 600 people. I'll use the example of the community of Aklavik; 900-odd people. Yet they have a real social dependency on this program. Yet the problem you run into is because there are no social or economic opportunities in that community, you have to leave the community and find employment elsewhere. I think what we should be doing here instead of looking at the program criteria, is what we can do to develop opportunities in those communities so when people get off social assistance and want to get off social assistance the opportunities are there. You don't have to leave your communities to find those opportunities, they're either being developed or they're looked at in the notion of where those communities can go with those programs and services.

I think one thing we look at is we keep talking about the employment rate in the Northwest Territories at 71 percent. Yes it might be at 71 percent, but when you look at the population in the Northwest Territories distributed between 40,000 people where the majority of that population is in the regional centres where a lot of opportunities exist, you will get 70 percent.

Mr. Krutko, your time for reply has ended. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Item 11, petitions. Item 12, reports of standing and special committees. Item 13, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 14, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Item 14, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.