Mr. Clerk, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Weledeh, that the Member for Hay River North, Mr. Paul Delorey, be appointed Acting Speaker. Thank you.

I am honoured to take the chair as your Speaker today, but unfortunately it is under very sad circumstances. I only hope that I am able to be as impartial as our honourable Speaker. At this time, I would like to say that our thoughts and prayers are with Elaine, Tony and their boys. We will now move to the orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The Honourable Jim Antoine.

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to rise to speak on the issue of treatment of the government employees. Mr. Speaker, some time ago, a decision was made by the 13th Legislative Assembly that there would be mandatory days off during the Christmas period. Mr. Speaker, the employees were told they would have to do with five days less pay. It would happen between Christmas and New Year's and many Members of the Assembly felt it wasn't fair for our employees to go without a pay cheque or half a pay cheque during that critical time of year when expenses are high, especially around Christmas. So we urged the government to make the change necessary and felt that they had come to a reasonable compromise. Mr. Speaker, the government began taking off 1.92 percent from employees' payroll to cover off that one week, so throughout the year they would have an equal amount every two weeks of the year, so that five days of mandatory leave would not be harshly felt.

Mr. Speaker, it has just recently come to my attention that our government has dealt with the employees in a way that seems quite arbitrary and unfair. We know the 1.92 percent is taken off from salary they have earned throughout the year, but what I have heard is if an employee is to resign or step out of this government before they receive that pay cheque in December, that they forfeit that money, that one week's pay, if they have been employed all year.

Now I understand the union has agreed and signed this, but still, Mr. Speaker, it seems arbitrary that as an employee the government would take some of my own money and rebalance my pay cheque so that every two weeks I would have an equal pay cheque. Then if I leave the government, whether I go south or move to another job in my community, I am told, thank you for your money, you can go on and we are going to keep it and use it for something else. It's arbitrary and absolutely unfair. It's the employees' money, it's taken from their pay cheque and it should go to those employees that pay. I will be asking questions of the appropriate Minister during question period. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the NWT Association of Municipalities, now called the NWT Association of Communities, was formed in 1967 and has stayed the course by adapting to the changing political landscape by providing a forum in which member communities can discuss and exchange information on common issues.

Mr. Speaker, over the last several decades, communities in the NWT have had to focus on land claims and what impact it would have, not only on individuals, but also on the communities as a whole. As aboriginal claims are settled, and aboriginal self-government becomes a topic, the same communities must now become informed on the impact that will have on communities. It is stated in the document, Securing Our Future, that the Government of the Northwest Territories must work with the aboriginal and community governments to clarify new roles brought on by aboriginal self-government.

Mr. Speaker, the association wishes to put action to that statement by taking up the challenge to assist each of its member communities in understanding aboriginal self-government and self-government implementation processes at the community level. With encouragement from the Premier, the association submitted a proposal to MACA requesting funds for the purpose of employing a self-government liaison officer whose duties will include providing communities with the information and support required to better understand the impact of self-government and self-government implementation may have at the community level.

This government now has the opportunity to live up to its commitment by supporting the proposal submitted to the Minister of MACA by the NWT Association of Communities. It's an excellent and timely opportunity for this government to develop a partnership with the communities for the delivery and communication of information on self-government. Who better to have as a partner than an organization with member community governments that interact with local residents on a daily basis.

Mr. Speaker, self-government may lead to a change in the way community government is structured and delivered. Therefore, it is important that we provide every resource to the communities in order that they better understand aboriginal self-government. Mr. Speaker, I stand in support of this request from the NWT Association of Communities and I recommend this government show its support by considering this initiative, an initiative that will result in informed communities and individuals. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to highlight a government and industry partnership that kicks off today across town, actually at Northern United Place, with the launch of the apprenticeship support materials. Mr. Speaker, we all know the northern economy is booming and with that boom has come an increased demand for skilled trades people. More and more people and certainly more young people, when we go around to schools that we have had a chance to talk to, are becoming interested in apprenticeships, but there is a major hurdle, Mr. Speaker. That is the trades entrance exam. In some communities, mostly the smaller communities, fewer than 10 percent of those taking the exam get a passing grade on their first attempt. That's not a big surprise, Mr. Speaker, when you consider that until now, there have been no support materials or training available.

De Beers Canada Mining has recognized this, Mr. Speaker. They knew it would be a problem to achieve the goal of having a northern workforce able to participate in meaningful occupations, but these materials, Mr. Speaker, should address that shortcoming. The focus will be in the areas of math, science and reading comprehension, all of the components required to be successful in the trades entrance exam. If you are wondering about the format, it will be available in the traditional paper-based format, but also in CD and web-based and that will allow it to be easily expandable and adaptable.

I know many of the Members will be wondering if you have to come to Yellowknife to access these materials and the answer is no, Mr. Speaker. Training is going to take place across the Northwest Territories. Training will be offered, I understand, at apprenticeship offices, career development centres, community learning centres, at college campuses and in high schools right across the NWT. I should highlight the partners, Mr. Speaker. De Beers Canada obviously have been very influential, but ECE and the federal government, various departments, Aurora College, Skills Canada, the NWT and Nunavut branches, and also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize the Genesis Group, a local firm who are very influential and were behind the development of these specific materials.

So, Mr. Speaker, I think we all look forward to good things that I believe will come from this partnership. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was with a sense of regret and surprise, Mr. Speaker, that Yellowknifers heard this morning that the Caribou Carnival won't happen this year. There have been hundreds of volunteers over the years who have put thousands of hours into making this truly unique northern event happen. We've watched the event flow from good years to bad, from stone to flood, from one quirky controversy to another, but this year it seems it was the final straw as the support the volunteers needed to build a strong committee, raise the money and carry through failed to materialize. This is not a time to point fingers. Indeed, it is the time to salute those who came forward this year and did their best to carry off the carnival. I also salute them, Mr. Speaker, for making a brave decision to cut the event loose and declare it lost for this year. They have accepted the reality that I believe, will result in this community taking a good long look at what we really value, what our identity is and what we do to celebrate it. I'm confident that what comes out of this will be the renewal of the NWT's biggest winter festival into something that reflects a new Yellowknife, new NWT or hopefully we will keep the values and traditions that we call ours. One of the values that have to change, Mr. Speaker, is how this community supports its volunteers. In the early 90's, I was carnival president for three years and I know what it is like to scramble together an event that takes months to organize, upwards of $200,000 dollars to stage with a skeleton crew and a cap in hand approach to generating support and finding people ready to roll up their sleeves. I also note the personal satisfaction, Mr. Speaker, that comes in seeing something that really works well and seeing smiles on faces and the relief we all got by having some fun after a long cold winter. With the weather we are getting these days, we are really going to miss it this year. I believe the business community, this city of Yellowknife and this government should all rethink the value of this event, the value we put in our volunteers and what this means to the pride and spirit of this community. Political and financial support are essential. Mr. Speaker, next year would have been the 50th year of this remarkable event, let's let it go. I appeal to the people of Yellowknife to resolve to start new, start fresh and create the first year of a winter festival that we can again be proud of. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like today to draw the attention to, in particular the Minister of Justice, a deficiency that we seem to have in the labour standards process, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a constituent who took an issue to the Labour Standards Board because he was short changed on his wages and while it took him a long time in getting there, he did eventually succeed in getting a favourable decision to have his wage paid. This decision of the board was made back in 1998 and five years later, he still hasn't seen a cent of his judgment. I don't think that we should take lightly the possibility that someone could be out of their wages and then have to go through a process like this to win a decision and then not be able to collect it. I do believe the very purpose and the reason why we have a law that governs the labour standards process is for people like that to go to and to avoid the expensive court system. Something that is happening is not meeting this obligation, Mr. Speaker. I have been in touch with the Minister on this and what I see as the problem of not being able to collect is that the employer keeps appealing the decision, and the more the employer delays it, he doesn't have to meet the obligation of the standards board. What I have been suggesting to the Minister of Justice is to sit up, change the law, make the law whereby the employer, or whoever loses the decision, is forced to put a deposit of the money that they are supposed to pay to the employees. In other words, Mr. Speaker, if someone has been short changed in wages of $5,000 dollars, the employer should be obligated or to pay that money and put it on deposit so that we avoid situations where the employer keeps appealing the decision as a way to avoid payment. I have urged the Minister to look into this. I have been told that this will probably not make it to the legislative agenda because of the crowded situation. But, I do believe that this is a very important issue and one that should be looked at by the Minister as well as the Cabinet. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you Ms. Lee. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to present the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight's Report on the Review of the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Commissioner's Annual Report for 2001-2002.

Background

The Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories enacted its first Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, ATIPP, on December 31, 1996. The stated intention of the act is to "promote, uphold and protect access to the information that government creates and receives and to protect the privacy rights of individuals".

The Information and Privacy Commissioner is an independent officer of the Legislative Assembly, but is required under section 68 of the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act to prepare and submit an annual report on the commissioner's activities to the Legislative Assembly. Ms. Elaine Keenan-Bengts was re-appointed as the Northwest Territories' Information and Privacy Commissioner on July 1st, 2000 and will serve a five-year term.

The Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act provides the public with a means of accessing the information that government collects through its departments and various regulatory bodies. The legislation was also designed to place restrictions on the disbursal of certain information in order to protect the privacy rights of individuals. The Act also gives individuals the right to see and make corrections to the information about themselves.

General Comments

Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight met with the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Commissioner, Elaine Keenan-Bengts, on December 4, 2002, to review the Commissioner's annual report for the year 2001-2002.

The standing committee noted the ATIPP commissioner's increasing frustration with the lack of progress to date on recommendations made in her previous reports to the government. The committee agreed that the government's lack of action could be considered a "deemed refusal" of both the commissioner's recommendations and the committee's own recommendations made in their annual review of the ATIPP report.

The committee notes the government agreed with many of the recommendations made by both the commissioner and the standing committee after the review of the ATIPP Commissioner's 1999/2000, annual report. In its response to the standing committee's report the government committed to the implementation of several amendments to the act. However, as of the end of 2002 the standing committee has yet to receive a legislative proposal for the amendments, let alone a draft of the amendments to consider. The committee feels that the government has had considerable time in which these amendments could have been prepared.

The committee does not believe that the government is deliberately attempting to halt the implementation of the proposed amendments to the ATIPP Act. However the committee does suggest the drafting of said amendments has been put on the back burner while the government addresses other issues it considers more vital to the public interest. The committee maintains that the proposed amendments, especially the amendment that would protect citizens from the distribution of personal medical information held by private companies, is vital to the public interest and should be placed higher on the government's list of current priorities. The committee would like to see these amendments passed before the end of the 14th Assembly: The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight recommends that the government table the agreed-upon draft amendments to the ATIPP Act as soon as possible, preferably in the February/March session.

Recommendations From The ATIPP Commissioner's 2001-2002 Report

The Inclusion Of Municipalities As Public Bodies Under The Current Act

As the commissioner has pointed out in the past three annual reports, municipalities currently have no legislation regulating the release of names, addresses or other private information on web pages or in other public documents. Municipal officials from both Yellowknife and Hay River have identified this as a serious concern.

During the review of the commissioner's 1999-2000 report, the government committed to providing information and consulting with communities about the possibility of including municipalities under the current NWT ATIPP Act. Recent letters to the committee updating us on the status of this amendment show that there has been little action taken to address this issue.

The standing committee fully supports the commissioner's recommendation that municipalities be included under the territorial ATIPP law or new legislation be drafted to deal with municipalities' use of public information.

Canadian Territories Considered "Federal Works"

The commissioner has also repeatedly pointed out that new federal legislation entitled Personal Information and Electronic Documents Act, PIPEDA, regulating the collection, storage and use of personal information in the private sector will come into full force on January 1st, 2004. As of January 1st, 2001 this legislation came into effect for "federal works" and for companies who transfer information over provincial/territorial borders.

The federal privacy commissioner considers the Northwest Territories, Yukon and Nunavut as being "federal works" under the act and therefore the federal commissioner has now taken on the responsibility of investigating all complaints made in this area.

The NWT ATIPP Commissioner recommends the establishment of territorial legislation in order to avoid having local issues handled by a federal body.

The standing committee noted that despite a letter from all territorial justice Ministers questioning the federal commissioner's interpretation of "federal works" he has refused to alter his opinion.

The committee also noted the GNWT continues to maintain that it will review the federal legislation and its effect on the NWT in 2006, two years after the federal PIPED Act goes into full force for all of Canada. However, Members note that the act has actually been "in force" for all of Canada's territories since its inception in 2001, at least in the view of the federal commissioner. Therefore the standing committee has two recommendations to make on this issue: Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight once again recommends that the Government of the Northwest Territories establish privacy legislation dealing with private sector businesses in order to avoid federal jurisdiction in this area of law; and, the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight also recommends that the Government of the Northwest Territories review the effect of the federal Personal Information and Electronic Documents Act on the NWT as soon as possible rather than in 2006.

Regulation Of Private Health Industries

The commissioner is concerned that while publicly run health bodies are subject to the ATIPP Act, other private health companies such as pharmacists, dentists, chiropractors, et cetera, are not. Given concerns about the practice of companies selling health information to drug manufacturers and potential invasion of privacy issues, the commissioner would like to see legislation such as the Health Information Act of Alberta. This legislation regulates the practices of all public and private health organizations and companies in respect to the release of information, among other issues.

In response to concerns raised by the standing committee, the government stated that private health care information will be covered by the federal PIPED Act as of January 2004. The government therefore does not deem it necessary to pass an amendment of this nature to the current NWT ATIPP Act.

The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight agrees with the commissioner that there is a need to protect the public from disclosure of health information by private health care companies. The federal government's PIPED Act was designed to be implemented in stages to allow territories and provinces the time necessary to establish their own privacy legislation. This legislated protection should either be included under the current Northwest Territories ATIPP legislation or should be a part of a new territorial law designed to protect NWT citizens. The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight once again recommends that the government either expands the current NWT Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act or establishes new legislation to protect NWT citizens from the disclosure of personal information by private health care companies.

Mr. Speaker, I would now like to request, with your consent, to have the deputy chair of the committee, the honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, continue with the report.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The NWT ATIPP commissioner referred to her 1999/2000 annual report suggesting that an amendment be added to the ATIPP Act specifying that the head of a public body would be deemed to have accepted the commissioner's recommendation if that public body had not responded within 30 days.

In the review of the commissioner's 1999/2000 annual report, the committee noted that no other ATIPP or Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Acts in other Canadian jurisdictions currently contain a "deemed acceptance clause". In fact the committee noted most other jurisdictions use a "deemed refusal" clause. The AOC did not agree with the commissioner's recommendation at that time and instead suggested an amendment stating that the head of a public body would be deemed to have refused the commissioner's recommendation if that public body has not responded within 30 days.

The government agreed with the committee and stated it would implement a "deemed refusal" amendment to the act. The committee notes however, that as of the end of 2002 the committee has yet to see a proposed amendment to the NWT ATIPP Act.

As the standing committee reviewed the privacy commissioner's 2001-2002 report, it reconsidered the commissioner's concerns regarding the use of the "deemed refusal" clause and the concern she had that it would be used to, in effect, reverse the recommendation of the commissioner.

The standing committee consulted with other Canadian jurisdictions and found that, in practice, the "deemed refusal" clause is considered a refusal to release the records in question. Given the commissioner's concerns about the possible misinterpretation of a "deemed refusal of the commissioner's recommendation" clause the standing committee would like to suggest alternative wording. The committee suggests that the government adopt a "deemed refusal to release the documents" clause. This amendment would address both the commissioner's concerns about clarity within the act and would protect the public from the inadvertent release of private documents.

The committee asked the commissioner if this new wording would satisfy the commissioner's concerns about a "deemed refusal" clause. The commissioner stated that while it does provide more clarity it still leaves the complainant with no further option than a costly appeal to the NWT courts.

The committee considered the commissioner's concerns, however, ultimately decided that the deemed refusal of release of documents clause was a more appropriate action for the government to take: The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight once again recommends that the Government adopt a "deemed refusal" amendment to the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act. The committee further recommends the wording be such that should the head of a public body not respond within the required 30 days to the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act Commissioner's recommendation(s) the head is deemed to have refused access to the records in question.

Privacy Complaints

The commissioner reiterated her need for an amendment to the ATIPP Act clarifying her authority to investigate and make recommendations in the event of a breach of privacy provisions in the act. The commissioner states that although she currently lacks the official authority to do so, she has been reviewing, investigating and making recommendations with respect to breaches of provisions of the act dealing with personal privacy. In the absence of such a review and recommendations, the only other option would be for a government employee to be prosecuted under the act. As the commissioner points out in her report, most of the offences are accidental and therefore should not proceed to the courts.

The standing committee agreed with the commissioner's initial recommendation in her 1999-2000 report and recommended to the government that the act be amended to give the commissioner authority to investigate and make recommendations in the event of a breach of privacy provisions in the act. The government stated that it also agreed and committed to an amendment of the act. Again, however the standing committee has yet to see the proposed change to the act.

Use Of Public Registries On-line

The commissioner informed the committee in her report that ATIPP officers across Canada are increasingly concerned about the use of public registries, such as personal property registry information, on-line. While this type of information has always been publicly available it has enjoyed what some have described as "practical obscurity", due to the relative difficulty in accessing a specific file. Now that such databases are becoming available on-line, new software can sort and sift through vast amounts of information in a short period of time. This could allow for the substantial violations of privacy provisions and could allow stalkers to obtain victims' addresses or criminals to commit identity fraud. The commissioner recommends that the government investigate the possibility of limiting access to such databases on-line in order to protect the public.

Records Data And Directory

The commissioner spoke of the need for government departmental ATIPP personnel to keep accurate records of all contacts and requests made in relation to their department. While the commissioner has records for her own investigations she feels that data about the number of information requests received and filled by the department would be of value as well.

The committee agreed that any future need for training of staff in government departments could only be identified through the use of such data on information requests. The committee would like to encourage departmental ATIPP coordinators to maintain records on information requests, filled or denied, and supply them to the commissioner on an annual basis.

The commissioner would also like to see an up to date directory listing each departmental ATIPP coordinator with current contact numbers. The commissioner feels that, by publicly listing the personnel, access to information will be more easily obtained.

Conclusion

In conclusion the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight would like to thank the commissioner, Ms. Elaine Keenan-Bengts and her staff for appearing before the committee to present the 2001-2002 annual report. The committee looks forward to reviewing a bill shortly bringing forward many of the recommendations the commissioner has provided over the years: The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight requests the Executive Council table a comprehensive response to this report within 120 days in accordance with Rule 93(5) of the Rules of the Legislative Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, that concludes the report of the Accountability and Oversight committee on the review of the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Commissioner's 2001-2002 annual report.

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Frame Lake, that Committee Report 6-14(6) be moved into Committee of the Whole for further consideration. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Committee Report 6-14(6) will be moved to Committee of the Whole for further consideration. Item 4, reports of standing and special committees. Item 5, returns to oral questions. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Nitah.

I would like to remind Members what recognition of visitors in the gallery is for. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's with a great deal of pleasure that I wish to recognize 16 students from the teacher education program, first year, at the Yellowknife Campus, Aurora College, here in Yellowknife and their instructor Rai Brown who teaches them history. So please help me welcome our future teachers.

---Applause

The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize a former resident of Tuktoyaktuk, Mr. Gord Norberg. Mr. Gord Norberg now lives in Hay River and works for NTCL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. I would like to take this opportunity recognize my constituent as well, Mr. Gordon Norbert, who is manager of marketing and traffic coordinator for Western Arctic Northern Transportation Company Limited. Gordon is no stranger to all of us. I think he knows pretty well everyone here. Gordon is here to observe his son Gordon who is a Page here in the Assembly, along with Ms. Ashley Leblanc. I would like to thank those two Pages for coming over.

---Applause

Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, as Cabinet Members will recall, Cabinet direction was that the issue of a one-rate zone would not be revisited during this current application by the Power Corporation for new rates. We would wait until after the energy strategy was finalized to deal with any of the recommendations from the Robertson report and the recommendation for a one-rate zone was part of that recommendation. So for the time being, that is on hold until we have the energy strategy completed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

I can't speak to the detail of the discussions that the staff who are putting together the energy discussion paper are having in their consultations. They don't report to me as Minister responsible for the Power Corporation. They report to the Minister of RWED. Let's not mix up the energy strategy, which is not yet prepared, with the energy discussion paper that's currently being reviewed and discussed in the communities. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I don't direct that group and I don't know the exact details of their discussions. Thank you.

---Interjection

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, the Cabinet is not picking and choosing what they want. We do have the Robertson report that makes a number of recommendations. Certainly those have to be considered. It was Cabinet's decision to wait until after the energy strategy was completed. So that is where we are at. We are waiting until that strategy is completed. We will see what recommendations they come up with. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, we do have a system with the Power Corporation where the power corporation makes rate applications to the Public Utilities Board. They can apply for community-by-community rates, they can apply for a one-rate zone. They could apply for whatever they want, but in this case they were directed to apply for community-rate zones by Cabinet and that is what they have done. Certainly this does not prevent anyone from intervening and saying I don't agree with that approach, I would recommend that we do it this way instead. So people can intervene and there will be public hearings held. I don't know if it's too late to put their name on the list with the Public Utilities Board for interventions, but there is opportunity for all communities, all clients, to make interventions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I am, sure there are a lot of different views on which one is the fairest to individuals in one community or another community. I am sure we could have a lot of debate over one-zone versus community-by-community rate zones. The decision of Cabinet was to not change the present system we have now, which is community-rate zones until after we have this other document, the energy strategy, completed and before Cabinet. Cabinet said stay with the status quo and directed the Power Corporation to apply for community rate zones through the Public Utilities Board until we get that document. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, in the federal budget of a couple of days ago, there were changes announced to the National Child Benefit and I would like to ask the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment some questions related to this. The news from Ottawa tells us that the National Child Benefit supplement will increase $150 per child in July of this year and $185 in July of 2006, if I have my information correct. The question I would like to ask, Mr. Speaker, is will the Government of the Northwest Territories allow recipients to keep this cash directly or are we going to continue to scoop it and put it into other less focused child programs? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it was a good announcement that was made in the budget and it provided money for the NCB with additional money in the NCBS, as Mr. Braden has stated of some $150 additional in the first year and eventually to increase it to a total of $3,243 for the first child. On the matter of the process of funding usage of that money, Mr. Speaker, it will go to the low income and working families. Right in the statement made by Mr. Handley...Manley, pardon me...

---Laughter

I had stated that it's for children to break through the welfare wall and take control of their future. So it says in the statement that it's for working families, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

The twin brother Finance Ministers here. Yes, it seems they have given some good news to Canadians and indeed Northerners. Perhaps I need some clarification, Mr. Speaker. It's my understanding that the program up to now is made available to individuals by the federal government, but the discretion is given to provinces and territories to take that money if they wish and redirect it to other child programs. That's what we do. Will this supplement be gathered up again to go into programs of our choice or will the cash stay with those families? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Mr. Speaker, the budget came out on Tuesday. We didn't know what the conditions of the budget would be and we still have to look at the implications of that particular part of the announcement, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Perhaps on a related aspect then, when this income is directed to income support clients, if they are going to be allowed to keep some of this, is it going to continue to be counted as income and, therefore, perhaps be deflected to other programs? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is what I meant. But to the honourable Member, we still have to analyze that and see how it will impact on us, how it will impact on the territory and how we can treat this particular money. It states right in the federal document, "to help working families," so I need clarification on that from our part as well.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Final supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Fine. There is a lot of detail to this and I am certainly prepared to see some good analysis done. Just given that the increase is scheduled to take effect as of July of this year, that's not very much time. Would

the Minister be able to perhaps give us that information some time during this session? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are somewhat dependent on the federal government supplying the information to us, so I can't guarantee what it will be, but we will certainly do our best to get as much information as we can and to resolve this particular question, Mr. Speaker. However, we are dependent on federal information to be provided to us. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health and Social Services. There's been a lot of back and forth, especially the last couple of days in Committee of the Whole, about supplementary health benefits and specifically the co-payments, which some people have to pay and others don't. First I would like to applaud the Minister for improving the third party insurance for Metis people. I think that's a great idea and a good first step, but I believe that one of the principles we should be looking to is universality. We certainly shouldn't be trying to generate revenue on the backs of an unfortunate few, Mr. Speaker. I think we need to make an informed decision on some realistic costed options. There has been a real shortage of accurate information from the department until now. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see a commitment from this Minister to come back with some costed options, including expanding this third party insurance coverage to everybody the next time we meet, Mr. Speaker. Is that too much to expect? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member is correct. This has been an issue. There has been lots of back and forth over the last few days and as I indicated in Committee of the Whole, we are committed to coming forward and move our timelines up and attempt to honour the commitment and come forward with a package before this coming June of next year, not next year, this June. June 2003. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Bell.

Well, I am glad to hear it will be prior to the election. Mr. Speaker, I guess what we are looking for is a commitment that the Minister is prepared to work with special programs and bring forward these accurately costed options to social programs before the next session so that we can have a discussion on them instead of just dropping them on us as we walk out the door at the end of next session. Will the Minister commit to that?

Thank you, Mr. Bell. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am wounded to the quick by the thought that I would do something like that. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, once again, during the debate of the health and social services budget, I am committed to continuing to work with the Social Programs committee. We will bring forward the information and we will keep closely engaged with the Social Programs committee, so there will be no surprises and by the time the June session rolls around, we should be able to have a very informed debate. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in my Member's statement, I indicated the NWT Association of Communities submitted a proposal to MACA for a position for self-government liaison officer. I am wondering if the Minister of MACA has had the opportunity to review the proposal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That's correct, I have had time to review it. We received the initial proposal over a year ago and we took that to FMBS for funding, but it was one of the initiatives that was put on the back burner for the time being. We received the second proposal again from the NWTAC and we reconsidered the proposal. MACA supports the proposal. What we had to do was take the proposal to our colleagues in Aboriginal Affairs to ensure there were no problems with us funding this initiative. I believe that consultation is over with now and I have signed off on a submission to FMBS for the funding. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for his answer. I am quite happy there is some movement on this issue. I would like to ask the Minister if he would commit to meeting with the NWT Association of Communities to discuss his proposal and explain where it's at. There seems to be quite a bit of confusion as to the response to this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

Mr. Speaker, we have had ongoing discussions with the NWTAM proposal. What was necessary was for the NWTAC to meet with Aboriginal Affairs to ensure there were no problems with us funding that initiative. That has been done. So the submission is now before FMBS for the funding to pass it on to the NWTAC. Once I get that authority, it goes ahead.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Speaker, it's not clear to me from the Minister's response. It seems this request has been rejected once before and I really don't know why. It's on the table for Cabinet to review once again, but I am not clear why it was rejected the first time. Could the Minister provide that information to us? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the initial proposal was never refused by FMBS. We were told we would have to find the funding from within and we didn't have that capacity. So what we are doing now is putting the request in to FMBS for the funding.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Final supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad the Minister has clarified that issue. I would like to ask the Minister if that position is put to him again by FMBS to fund the resources from within, will he commit to do so? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of MACA, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am reluctant to respond to this until I have had a response from FMBS as to whether I am going to be turned down.

---Laughter

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board Secretariat, following on my Member's statement regarding the treatment of government employees. It's my understanding that the union has signed off on the agreement, but it still doesn't sit right when you are an employee of this government and what the government does to balance out your pay cheque so you don't do without half a cheque come December, they've taken off the 1.92 percent and then balanced it out, but as a government we inform them, probably afterwards, that if you plan to leave this government prior to December 20th, I think is the date, you forfeit those dollars. So I would like to know from the Minister if he would consider changing that and allowing that money, which is rightly the employees' money to go back to them no matter what time they leave this government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister responsible for the FMB, Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that is an agreement we have with the union, so if we were going to change it, we would have to discuss it with the union. Mr. Speaker, let me explain why this happens. It's very simple. We have employees who leave the government during every month of the year. We have employees who join the government every month of the year. If we were to say to employees that whether or not you got a full pay cheque during those Donnie Days at Christmastime would depend on whether or not you put in a full year first, then it would be an administrative nightmare to try to adjust everybody's pay. Somebody would join in January and they would have a full year. Somebody would join at the end of June, they would have a half a year's salary and so on. We don't give them half their pay if they start halfway through the year, they get full pay as if they worked all year. For those who leave, in order to balance this all out, for those who leave early, it balances. If you leave early, you won't get your cheque. You can't have it one way, it's got to work both ways. So it balances out nicely. The union agrees it's the fairest way of doing it. No, we would not change it without the union's concurrence and I would have real doubts because it would be a real nightmare to try to administer. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the Minister's nickname must be Scrooge, especially come Christmastime if anybody plans to leave the government.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister stated that it can be confusing, that in fact the money that is deducted off an employee's payroll is their money, they've earned it on their salary. So can't he look at some other way of doing it? We've managed to do it prorated for holiday pay. We don't keep that money away from individuals or is that the case, too? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The Minister responsible for the FMB, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, this agreement, as I said, is an agreement with the union. Everybody gets a full pay cheque over the Christmas period. The person who starts in November doesn't only get one-twelfth of their pay cheque during these Donnie Days at Christmastime, they get a full pay cheque. When we negotiated the collective agreement back in '96, in agreement with the union, part of this compensation package for union employees would include this provision. So it's an agreement with the union. I can't change any particular piece of that collective agreement without the union agreeing to it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Mr. Speaker, the recent years have shown that the turnover rate of our government employees can go up as high as 20 percent. So with that amount when you take that deduction off those people, is all the money put back into the upcoming months? We know that once an individual leaves, the government doesn't fill that position the very next day. So what are you doing with that money? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister responsible for the FMB, Mr. Handley.

We use money in government to meet our obligations under the collective agreement as well as other program and services costs. So we meet the obligations as laid out in the collective agreement. We don't take that money and set it aside in a pool someplace to be used by other employees for the Donnie Days they have off at Christmastime. Mr. Speaker, again I just want to repeat this is in the collective agreement. The unions agreed with us that it was the fairest way to treat our public service members as a whole. While some individuals feel they've been wronged by this, I am sure the ones that join the government late in the year appreciate that they get an added benefit. So it's part of a whole compensation package. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Final supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think I will have to pull our Hansard from today to find out because the Minister said when one employee leaves, before that, they take that money and use it for another employee, but he just told me they don't use it for other employees. So what is it? Mr. Speaker, there is up to a 20 percent turnaround. What kind of money would that lead up to and is it all going back to other employees? We know that in all of our communities, jobs lie empty for quite some time, so what is he doing with that money? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister responsible for the FMB, Mr. Handley.