The next department to deal with is the Housing Corporation. At this time, I would like to ask the Minister responsible if he has any opening comments. Mr. Allen.
Minister's Opening Comments
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In the Legislative Assembly on March 11th, 2003. See this topic in context.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to present the 2003-2004 budget for the NWT Housing Corporation. Mr. Chairman, as this will be the last budget of the 14th Legislative Assembly, I would like to take this opportunity to look at some of our accomplishments as well as the plans to ensure we continue to address the housing needs of our residents.
Mr. Chairman, we have requested a total contribution of $52.971 million, which represents an increase of eight percent over the corporation's 2002-2003 allocation. Including other revenue sources of $47.263 million, the corporation will spend over $100 million on housing in the NWT this year. This figure includes contributions from our federal funding partner, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
The contributions outlined in these estimates will allow the Housing Corporation to work towards fulfilling the affordable housing strategy, which provides for suitable, adequate and affordable housing for all NWT residents. The Housing Corporations' affordable housing strategy aims to create approximately 780 new homes for low to moderate income families across the NWT over the next five years. Mr. Chairman, this year alone the Housing Corporation has completed 652 projects of which 205 were projects that put families into new homes, and 447 repair projects. In addition, we have completed 243 service maintenance calls to low income seniors and disabled families to ensure their homes are operating safely and efficiently. The corporation also provides stronger supports to private market developers to assist with the development of additional market rental and homeownership homes. These steps will provide much needed support to build housing infrastructure to keep pace with the current cycle of economic expansion.
Mr. Chairman, the Housing Corporation has developed specific goals and strategies to assist with the expansion of private housing by working with the private sector to establish an environment that encourages the construction of new private housing. An example of this includes recent changes to our guarantee on interim financing program that now provides guarantees to lending institutions for developers that have a 10 percent equity position for new home construction and 15 percent on new rental unit construction. Mr. Chairman, this is a substantial reduction from the previous 25 percent equity requirement and the corporation has also reduced its fee for this service from 1.5 percent to only half a percent.
Mr. Chairman, the NWT Housing Corporation has taken the lead on the issue of homelessness. The corporation led a GNWT interdepartmental working group to address homelessness and completed a comprehensive strategy, which I am now reviewing with my Cabinet colleagues. It is important to note that the Housing Corporation has set aside $500,000 for the funding to address this serious issue in the upcoming year.
The estimates also include new funding to address disparities amongst what the corporation has identified as the critical six communities. What this means is that six communities have been identified as substantially further behind in their housing development and overall housing need than other NWT communities. They include the communities of Lutselk'e, Hay River Reserve, Fort Providence, Fort Liard, Wha Ti and Fort Good Hope. Mr. Chairman, it is hoped that by focusing the much needed $1.7 million to catch up funding towards these communities, we will be able to make a real difference in addressing housing needs to similar levels as other communities across the NWT.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to report that the NWT Housing Corporation continues to forge new partnerships and joint projects with community and aboriginal development corporations. The Housing Corporation is completing the final stages of its universal partnership agreement that provides for substantially greater decision-making authority at the community level. Mr. Chairman, both the joint ventures and the new universal partnership agreement will go a long way to give our communities and aboriginal groups the tools they need to help solve their housing problems in the community and by the community.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude by saying that funding provided to the NWT Housing Corporation will be well spent, creating solutions to the housing issues that our territory and our residents face in the upcoming year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This concludes my remarks.
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The Chair David Krutko
I would like to ask the committee responsible for reviewing this department if they have any comments. I will call on Mr. Bell.
Standing Committee On Social Programs Comments
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Brendan Bell Yellowknife South
The Standing Committee on Social Programs met on January 16, 2003 to consider the main estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.
Since reviewing the corporation's 2003-2004 proposed budget during the review of the 2003-2006 business plans in September of 2002, the standing committee noted a $747,000 increase in the amortization estimate, as well as a $1.72 million increase relating to the community development action plan which will help address serious housing issues in Lutselk'e, Hay River Reserve, Fort Providence, Fort Liard, Wha Ti and Fort Good Hope.
Accountability And Universal Partnership Agreements
Members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs have many concerns with how the NWT Housing Corporation, NWTHC, will monitor programs and services delivered by local housing authorities, LHAs, under universal partnership agreements, UPA.
While supportive of the concept of empowerment and allowing LHAs to make their own choices in how to deliver housing programs in their communities, there needs to be systems in place to ensure public money is being spent effectively.
Past experiences suggest there needs to be an emphasis placed on the inspection of new construction and renovations. Members are aware of serious deficiencies in the construction and maintenance of social housing units. In some cases the same LHA or development corporation that constructed or renovated the social housing unit was also responsible for signing off on the unit as complete. This is unacceptable to committee members.
The NWTHC spends a significant amount of money per social housing unit because of the high cost of construction and materials in the North. To ensure value for money, it is essential an efficient inspection program be in place.
In discussion with the Minister and his officials, committee members were informed that part of the annual audited financial statements included the auditor verifying work was accomplished by taking a representative sample.
For example, members note an auditor would be qualified to ask a social housing client whether the LHA added a porch to their unit. The auditor would not be qualified to determine whether the porch was properly tied to the rest of the structure, whether sufficient insulation was placed in the floors and walls and whether the porch was adequately blocked or pinned to bedrock.
In response to a question asked during the business plan review, the NWTHC stated that the corporation usually conducts interim and final inspections on construction projects. Committee members were concerned with the use of the word "usually". It seems to imply there is an ad hoc approach to ensuring the terms of construction contracts are fulfilled and that the NWTHC is receiving value for money.
During the business plan review, the Standing Committee on Social Programs questioned the need for the Housing Corporation. If the corporation's focus is on developing community capacity through the development of such mechanisms as universal partnership agreements, it stands to reason there should be an oversight function as part of the process.
Members believe the Housing Corporation is evolving into a funding mechanism for local housing authorities to ensure the orderly flow of funding from Canada Mortgage and Housing and the territorial government to the communities. The committee questioned whether this function could be accomplished through the use of a shell corporation administered through a government department and has asked that the future of the Housing Corporation be examined as part of the transition planning to the 15th Assembly of the Legislative Assembly.
Prior to the adoption of the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, Members of the Legislative Assembly were kept well informed of the activities of the NWT Housing Corporation within their constituencies.
The members of the committee understand the need to protect the privacy of persons accessing social housing, but would point out that the total lack of information now available to members hampers their ability to monitor the activities of the Housing Corporation and represent the interests of their constituents.
There is an unnecessary amount of time being spent on verifying information provided to members by their constituents with officials of the Housing Corporation. Members of the committee also believe the NWTHC is wasting valuable resources on determining the amount or type of information they can release to Members involved in constituency work.
The committee appreciated the commitment of the Minister and his officials to work on a protocol that will allow for the release of information to the Members of the Assembly in a timely manner that respects the privacy of the client and addresses the needs of the Members.
Harmonization Strategy
The Standing Committee on Social Programs notes harmonization of the way income is calculated by the Department of Education, Culture and Employment's income support division and the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation will become effective on April 1, 2003.
Members are pleased this oft-delayed initiative is being implemented and believe the new system provides for the equitable treatment of all residents of social housing. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment and the NWT Housing Corporation are to be commended for their efforts in ensuring the development of an equitable program.
There will be glitches as this program is implemented. The Housing Corporation is encouraged to work with clients to mitigate the effects on their households.
Regional Reorganization And The Housing Corporation
Members note the NWT Housing Corporation reorganized their regional structures from three regions to five districts aligned with land claims two years ago.
The standing committee is not opposed to regional reorganization but are concerned with the apparently ad hoc approach and the lack of coordination, planning and direction provided by Cabinet to the departments.
It is obvious that regional reorganization, whether official or ad hoc, has cost implications to this government. If the purpose is to align the administrative structures of the departments with land claim agreements, the associated costs must be part of self-government negotiations with the federal government and should not be absorbed by the GNWT.
This concern was passed on to the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight and was subsequently relayed to the Minister of Finance for a response.
The Minister's response indicates the government would be analyzing incremental costs and entering into negotiations with the federal government for funding to address these costs.
The committee hopes the government's optimism is justified. Mr. Chairman, at this point, I would like to turn over to my colleague, the Member for Hay River South.
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Jane Groenewegen Hay River South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. During the business plan review, members questioned an apparent focus on the marketing of the Housing Corporation's Maintenance Management Operating System, or MMOS, a proprietary software program.
Members found this focus somewhat disturbing, given the belief the core business of the Housing Corporation should be to provide and help in the development of affordable housing for Northerners.
The information provided by the Housing Corporation indicates they expect to recover all of their software development and marketing costs in the very near future.
Members are willing to give limited support for the marketing of the MMOS program with the understanding that the primary focus of the Housing Corporation should be on building housing and supporting the development of the housing industry.
Collection Strategy On Mortgage Arrears
The lack of a cohesive collection strategy for mortgages in arrears held by the NWT Housing Corporation was the subject of comment by the federal Auditor General in last year's report on other matters.
Past practices did not allow for timely collection or establish a consistent process to deal with mortgages that are in arrears.
Information provided by the corporation, subsequent to our meeting on the draft main estimates, indicates a strategy has been implemented to ensure timely payment of mortgages and which also recognizes that some people's circumstances have changed, meaning they can no longer pay their mortgage.
The committee did have concerns with the communication component of the new collections strategy. The Housing Corporation needs to provide written explanations for the new policies, as well as the individual counselling proposed in the strategy.
The strategy is to concentrate on those clients who have the financial wherewithal to address their mortgage arrears and not on those clients whose circumstances have changed.
Somba K'e Healing Centre
Members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs have expressed concern in the past with the fate of this former Northern Addictions Services facility.
The Housing Corporation has been, in effect, subsidizing the operation of a facility which does not deliver any programming on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories.
Members also note the facility has been underutilized by the present operator and, given the fact they recently lost a service contract with Corrections Canada, there is no reasonable hope of meeting ongoing operating costs.
The standing committee believes the NWT Housing Corporation has been more than accommodating in their attempts to help the operators of the Somba K'e Healing Centre maintain a viable operation.
The reality is this facility is secured through a mortgage to the NWT Housing Corporation. The mortgage was originally provided because the facility would have some benefit to the residents of the Northwest Territories. There is no reason the Housing Corporation should continue subsidizing in the absence of any tangible benefit to residents of the NWT.
The Standing Committee on Social Programs is pleased with the Minister's commitment to work with the Department of Health and Social Services to determine the best utilization for the Somba K'e Healing Centre, including the possibility of using it as a new Territorial Treatment Centre for Youth.
Transitional Housing, Residency And Program Eligibility
Members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs note there are policy gaps that need to be addressed on a pan-territorial basis to ensure that all residents have equitable access to social housing.
The Transitional Housing Program in Yellowknife is designed to help people without accommodation make the transition from outright homelessness into adequate and appropriate housing.
The paradox is that, because these people in transitional housing are deemed to be in adequate housing, they do not qualify for social housing under the point system used to determine program eligibility. The present low vacancy rate in Yellowknife and the resultant slowdown in turnover of social housing units further compound this situation.
It is obvious there needs to be minor tweaking of the transitional housing program and the program eligibility point system to actually let people make the transition into public housing where appropriate.
In discussing this situation with the Minister, Members were concerned to hear there was no overall territorial policy on eligibility for social housing, particularly as it relates to residency requirements and that each local housing authority establishes its own residency requirements. In some communities, you have to wait two years to be eligible for social housing. In Yellowknife, you are eligible in six months if you are from the Territories and nine months if you are not.
Residents of a community should not be penalized for leaving their home communities for education or economic opportunities by being denied access to social housing on their return.
Members of the standing committee believe there needs to be a consistent policy on residency requirements across the Territories that assures residents of equitable access to social housing while respecting the mobility rights guaranteed under the Charter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you. At this time, I would like to ask the Minister if he would be bringing in any witnesses. Mr. Allen.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the witnesses in?
Mr. Minister, could you introduce your witnesses?
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to introduce Mr. Tom Beaulieu, president of the NWT Housing Corporation to my left; and, Mr. Jeff Anderson, chief financial officer of the NWT Housing Corporation to my right.
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The Chair David Krutko
Welcome, witnesses. We will take a short 15-minute break and then continue.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair David Krutko
I'd like to call Committee of the Whole back to order. General comments regarding the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Some Hon. Members
Detail.
Detail
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The Chair David Krutko
Detail, page 8-9, budget summary, NWT Housing Corporation, operations expense, total operations expense, $52.971.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 8-18, information item, finance and administration, grants and contributions. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Mr. Miltenberger, do you have something to say or do you have a question? Page 8-23, information item, human resources. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 8-26, information item, operations, grants and contributions? Mr. Nitah.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in a Member's statement in questions directed to the government, I asked about government housing for teachers, nurses and other professionals. Has the Housing Corporation looked at the possibility of getting back into government housing so that they address these shortages in our communities? Thank you.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The answer basically is no, however, we do work with the community organizations in terms of private rental markets, and some of our programs were redesigned to address some of those critical questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in Fort Resolution, we are anticipating that there's going to be a shortage of housing available for the upcoming school year. Is the Housing Corporation working with the community organization in that community to address that problem that's on the radar screen? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Currently, staff housing or any type of professional housing is not under the mandate of the NWT Housing Corporation, although I think our funding mechanisms will assist those communities that want to look at introducing rental market accommodations. And, yes, we are prepared to discuss some financing options with the local corporation, per se. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, who has the mandate for that particular area of housing? Is it the department responsible for the delivery of that program and service?
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the conversations have evolved, there is no staff housing policy in the Government of the Northwest Territories, it is non-existent. Again, our emphasis then would be under our economic instrument to work with the local corporations to see if they would undertake that initiative. I believe if we do speak to supporting professional housing, that is done through a financing option. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what kind of financing option is available to local corporations so that they can provide the necessary housing for teachers in our communities; affordable housing, Mr. Chairman. Affordable housing is the key here. We know that teachers come and go on a very consistent basis, contributing to irregular delivery of education programs and services in our communities. The cost of housing is a major issue for the teachers. So the financing options that the Minister is referring to that's available to local corporations in communities, is the end result providing affordable housing to our teachers? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for the record, we don't have a mandate to provide professional housing, per se. What we are saying is that we can and we have increased the loan guarantee program from $10 million to $30 million. That would allow private developers to enter into the commercial rental market at 15 percent equity, and that's what we're advocating at this point to try to stimulate that sort of professional housing development. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that may very well work for a place like Yellowknife where if you build a building it's consumed right away. But if you're asking a development corporation or a private business entity to get into similar arrangements with the government to provide housing needs in the community for teachers, there's going to be two months a year that that house is not going to be occupied. Is that being recognized in this new financing option? I'd like to ask the Minister, who is responsible for providing housing to our professional people in the communities? Thank you.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll only speak in the context of the NWT Housing Corporation's mandate. Under the social housing agreement, we are responsible for public housing, providing home ownership programs, and I think we're on record as listing 16 different program deliveries. But we do not have a mandate to provide for professional housing. We have introduced a funding mechanism where we would provide loan guarantees. So it's really the initiative of the local development corporations or some other community entity to provide that to professionals. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, again one of the problems that I see on a consistent basis on this side of the House where I'm responsible for the programs and service delivery of this government in the communities I represent and a lot of the communities in the Northwest Territories, is that when departments and corporations come to us and in this sitting they have a tunnel vision. It's not part of our responsibilities, so we can't help you.
So I'll ask a simple question. Has the Minister communicated, or is he in contact with the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment to identify the possibility of working in collaboration to provide affordable housing for professional people in the communities, whether it's the Minister of Health and Social Services in his responsibility to deliver health and social service programs and services, or the Department of Education, Culture and Employment and the Minister and his responsibility in delivering his departments responsibilities? Now I think the government has to start working together, especially in the area of housing, so we can have quality educators in our community and that they can stay.
So I ask, has the Minister communicated with the other Ministers to see if they can help address their needs, the needs of the communities if you're not going to be able to provide a decent deal for corporations, the same kind of deal that's available in market communities? That deal is great for Yellowknife and for Hay River where there's a housing market, but there is no market... A teacher is not going to buy a house in Fort Resolution. They'll rent for a few years. That's what we're trying to make them do: stay for a few years. But we can't expect them to buy a house and expect them to sell it at the same price, because there is no market in our communities. So the Housing Corporation being the only entity of this government that provides housing, have they talked to the other departments to see if they could help with their needs? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair David Krutko
Just with regard to your question, the Minister responsible for staff housing is the Chair of FMBS. So does the Minister want to refer the question to his counterpart on staff housing, because this is where the question is going but it is not really the responsibility of this Minister. So if the Minister wants to refer it to the Minister of Finance?
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think perhaps it would be helpful if we could address it this way. Under the NWT Housing Corporation Act and under its mandate we have our obligations under the social housing agreement. We provide for public housing, social housing and a broad number of other housing funding mechanisms. Yes, we do administer the staff housing portfolio for FMB, but I think it is the government policy that they will not enter into staff housing.
What we're trying to emphasize here is that we do have a mechanism, and I think it's a fair process, that would allow each community to access. If the Minister responsible for the FMB would be prepared to address the other component of the Member's question, then I would ask the Chair to permit that. Thank you.
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The Chair David Krutko
Minister responsible for the FMBS, Minister Handley, in regards to staff housing.
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Joe Handley Weledeh
Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I got all of the question, but the question is why don't we get back into staff housing. Let me put it this way, a number of years ago we got out of staff housing and we only have a few units left that we're ready to turn over to communities. It's our view that housing is very much a community issue, that it's best if a lot of this is handled at the community level.
With regard to staff; the problem we have and the reason why we got out of it in the first place is the cost of it. When we got out of it, it was costing us about $25 million a year just to manage and own housing for staff. To get back into it is going to cost us at least that much money, and the operating costs of doing it. Because we can't do it for some public servants and not do it for others, under the collective agreement we would have to do it for everybody, everywhere if we did it. The cost is horrendous. We would instead prefer to encourage people in the community as businesses to build and provide rental housing. We might even consider getting into long-term leases as a government on those kinds of things if private businesspeople in the communities want to do it.
The other one is if teachers, professional people, want to get into mortgages and own a house in a community which is a natural way to do it, then we'd look at creative ways of doing that. But we don't want to get into owning houses as a government. It's too expensive. Thank you.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thanks again, Mr. Chairman. There was one question in the member's statement, and that was with regard to communicating with other departments. Yes, we have. We've been working with ECE and H&SS on a policy base, and also a directive to looking at housing to look at various aspects of whether we can work with local community developers. Again, I think we made reference to the fact that we are prepared to work with community organizations and community groups on a number of fronts to address that key question. Thank you.
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Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you. Under operations, the operations division says they supply design and contracting. I'd like to ask the department, for the people out there who want to build their own homes, if they were interested in some of the designs that the department had would they be able to access those designs? Thank you.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We certainly encourage design build, sub-build. I don't think we're really tied directly into trying to negate that self-initiative. I'll ask Mr. Beaulieu to respond more from a technical side to clarify my statement. Thank you.
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Beaulieu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the Housing Corporation can make designs available to individuals who wish to build that design. We also make the material package available.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to go back to page 8-28.
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The Chair David Krutko
The Member is asking to go back to pages 8-28 and 8-29. Does the committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is an area where the district office works delivering programs and services. I know sometimes we have other departments that deal with departments and things like that. I would like to ask them if they have the technical skills to do assessments on structure, multiple structures, multiple dwellings; if they have the technical people there who could help other departments, like DPW does? Thank you.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Recognizing that's a staffing issue, I'd ask the president of the corporation to respond to that directly. Thank you.
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Beaulieu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Depending on the size of the building, the Housing Corporation does have some expertise in assessing buildings. Depending on the size of the building, we have three individuals who do design, we have three individuals who are at headquarters positions that help with the projects, and we have project advisors in the field. Usually when there is a larger building, I think that the corporation would look to a private engineering company to do the design and also specifically because of the complexity of the foundation on larger structures.
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Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know we use DPW to do a lot of our assessments, they have some technical people. I'm just wondering, because DPW charges so much money to other departments, I thought maybe the Housing Corporation would, at no cost, do our assessments on multiple dwellings like six-plexes or even 12-plexes if they have the technical skills to do that. Thank you.
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Beaulieu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe we have the technical skills to be able to assess units that are four-plexes, six-plexes and so on. I'm not familiar with the chargeback from another department or what position we'd be in to work for a local organization.
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the area of capital acquisition, where does the Housing Corporation get their materials -- the raw lumber -- to build and repair houses in the Northwest Territories under its mandate?
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Beaulieu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The normal process is that we tender to the various building suppliers across the territory. We sometimes get into an arrangement with a local corporation that can provide with us dimensional lumber.
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, some of us in this House have constituents and constituencies that have a larger renewable resource in the forest industry. Has the Housing Corporation ever considered using northern products to build for Northerners? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly, when we talk about our economic instruments we have a bit of a record of working with local producers. Again, most recently we met with the Fort Smith Metis who are sponsoring a small sawmill operation in Salt River. We met with the Fort Liard band last October, and also a year ago last spring we met with Jean Marie River to look at doing some log work. We, as a corporation, are mainly into the marketing of that product and also, if we can, we wanted to develop some log home kits to use as demonstration projects. Yes, we have attempted to work with three of the major communities in the South. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Fort Resolution community, through the NWT Development Corporation, had a sawmill for the longest time. That sawmill was badly managed and they shut it down, leaving an economic void in that community. There is still a great desire in that community to get back into the sawmill business. I'm wondering if there is room within the capital acquisition or the purchase of the materials that the Housing Corporation could make a commitment to a sawmill of that nature to buy raw materials from that sawmill so that they have an economic base, and that raw material be used in the construction and repair of housing projects for NWT residents. Thank you.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to just address this question by saying that we are attempting to work jointly with RWED on a number of issues with regard to rough lumber. I believe the volume requirement of the NWT Housing Corporation based on certain standards would make a small, portable sawmill operation in Fort Resolution very viable. Although I want to just speak briefly to this, we can somehow deal within the context of the current political situation so that, yes, if we were able to support it from a marketing perspective, it's certainly, in our opinion, viable to work with a community that has a certain allotment of harvestable timber. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it's certainly refreshing to hear a Minister responding in that nature. It's going to be this kind of collaborative work that's going to ensure that we can maximize the economic potential of the Northwest Territories and its resources, including the non-renewable resources. I'd like to ask the Minister if he could commit his corporation to determine what materials, all materials required by the Housing Corporation to see what market areas a portable sawmill or a larger sawmill with finished products possibilities are not only in Fort Resolution, but in other communities in the Northwest Territories. I think it's about time that the money that we spent in building homes for our people in the Northwest Territories is spent here in the Northwest Territories supporting our local economies. I believe that the political environment today is conducive now to this type of economic development, and I would strongly encourage the department to look deep and hard to see what kinds of materials could come out in the Northwest Territories and could be used by the Housing Corporation so we don't send our money south. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly we're more than willing to undertake economic measures and try to assist the communities. Certainly on a volume basis, we can't procure enough rough lumber because of the demands throughout the territory and the large projects we are beginning to fund. I'd certainly like to take this a step further and work more closely with RWED to determine what kind of investment they could offer as well, and we could be the buyers of that product. So I'm certainly willing to take that first step.
As well, we're working with ECE on developing some vocational trades training. So there are a number of interesting and very possible projects. Also set out long-term strategies to enhance those economic initiatives, so it's all part of the territorial...(inaudible). Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have another session coming up in June. I wonder if the Minister could come back to us with some kind of plan or a draft discussion paper, some kind of position so that we could start looking at this seriously. I don't want to just leave it in the discussion form. I'd like to see what kind of commitment I could get from the Minister to return to us with a draft direction or whatever it's going to take, with collaboration from the Minister of RWED and the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
NWT Housing Corporation
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly we'd be interested in sitting down with my colleagues to try to draft up something that's equitable for the South Slave, and also perhaps for other southern communities as well. I think from an economic perspective, this is certainly most feasible and viable in terms of rough sawn lumber. Thank you.
NWT Housing Corporation
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation being the end market for lumber in the Northwest Territories, would the Minister and his staff also hold discussions with the current suppliers, the people who sell these materials in the stores in the Northwest Territories, to see if they could also be a market for these sawmills so that we don't cut off any businesses midway? Thank you.
NWT Housing Corporation
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At this point, from what our volumes are or the volumes that can be presently met in the Northwest Territories, we can purchase internally and that will help us sustain some local economies. Thank you.
NWT Housing Corporation
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The Chair David Krutko
I would just like to remind Members again, I don't take this lightly, I have warned people about chewing gum in this House, I notice that Mr. Steen is chewing gum in this House and I would like to ask Mr. Steen to remove his gum. We should show some respect in this House. There are certain rules that we follow and one of them is we are not allowed to have any food or anything to chew. All we are allowed to consume is water so I would like to request Mr. Steen to remove your gum, please.
Capital acquisitions plan.
NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 8-35 contributions to local housing authorities, information item. Mr. Nitah.
NWT Housing Corporation
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, contributions to local housing organizations is a very important area of responsibility of this government. The housing corporation is currently discussing with some communities the universal partnership agreement, Lutselk'e being one of the communities that is interested in taking on that responsibility. I know for a fact that it takes five or six people to deliver housing programs to Lutselk'e but, when we asked to negotiate this, we asked for those positions to be moved to the communities but the housing corporation does not want to do that.
Now, the question I have to ask the housing corporation is how seriously are you negotiating these universal partnership agreements? How seriously do you want these communities to succeed in taking on more responsibility? If you deliver housing programs and services in the community, if you are not going to devolve the positions or the financial resources to hire those positions, then as far as I'm concerned, the housing corporation is not serious to do so. So I ask, is it a common practice to devolve responsibility to communities without proper resources? Does the housing corporation like to see the communities fail? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From a political prospective, our mandate again is to help the communities develop capacity. We are trying to do that through a number of forums. The intent here is to provide advice, guidance, financial assistance, technical assistance and to make sure that they are not doomed to fail. From a financing perspective, I ask the president to speak to that specifically. Thank you.
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Beaulieu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The NWT Housing Corporation is attempting to negotiate universal partnership agreements with five communities with the plan to negotiate partnership agreements in all the communities that are interested in negotiating partnership agreements. The resources that are needed to deliver these programs to the various communities is something that is being worked out between the housing corporation and the community governments. We feel that it is difficult for us to respond on the amount of full time positions that it would take to deliver programs to one community, however, we know that we have a staff of around 100 and we are delivering in 33 communities across the Territories. Some communities are bigger than others and require more resources but we are attempting to do a fair allocation to the communities that we are negotiating with at this time.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, from a political perspective the Northwest Territories needs major faster building in the communities. From a political perspective, Mr. Chairman, if we devolve responsibility to communities and don't devolve human or financial resources to deliver those programs and services as best as they can to the current level of delivery of those programs and services, Mr. Chairman, we are setting them up to fail. So if it takes five people to deliver all housing programs and services in the community of Lutselk'e, why does the Minister feel that it would take that community less human or financial resources to deliver the same programs or services?
With the last department I came up with the same thing, when we do the work in there, we'll subsidize ourselves but when a private entrepreneur takes on the responsibility, you don't need subsidies. That's not a philosophy that I'd like to have of our politics or corporations. It doesn't work that way. We've set them up to fail and if we continuously do that, we will never develop capacity in the communities and we will always administer a welfare state. That is exactly what we are doing.
I know I've been through that already. Health and social services boards in the communities were set up to fail, now there is no capacity in that community to deliver those programs and services. Now the government has a perfect excuse not to deliver or negotiate any further devolution of the responsibilities of this government. So I ask the Minister again, would he consider devolving the resources necessary to deliver these programs and services to the same level that this corporation currently has when it negotiates these agreements with the communities? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are some interesting points that I would like to raise here and one is that the LHOs, the local housing authorities, have their own set of bylaws and they have their set of governance afforded them under the NWT Housing Corporation Act so they do have some autonomy in how they govern themselves. They have been in existence since the '70s and they have developed a certain level of capacity. What we are talking about here is now taking a set of programs and transferring them over into their governorship and that will allow them first and foremost to make decisions, take some responsibility, be accountable for the delivery of those programs and services.
What we are saying is that once we can work with them under a partnership agreement, we will be able to lend them the expertise so they do not fail. That is part of the overall concept of the UPAs, so they can provide us with adequate resources to carry through that mandate. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I see is a political downloading of programs and services that is causing a headache for the Minister and his staff of not wanting to follow suit with the financial or human resources. There are three people in the local housing authority in Tu Nedhe, one manager and one administrative staff and one maintenance guy. That doesn't cover all the housing needs in the community. It doesn't nearly come close to what is required to deliver proper programs and services in that area. Now they are operating on a shoestring budget. They are operating in crisis management mode in all these communities. No doubt about that.
While we have bureaucracy sitting top heavy in our regional capital center, we are having a hard time. We want to devolve this problematic area but we don't want to devolve any financial or human resources to do the job. Now, the Minister just again hid behind the local housing authority. Not my responsibility. These guys have a 25-year history, Mr. Chairman, of continuously being in crisis mode for the housing required in our communities... continuously. It's a recent phenomenon here in Yellowknife, a recent phenomenon in Inuvik but in Lutselk'e it is a 25-year history of need. In Fort Good Hope it is a 25-year history of need.
That is what we have to address. If we are going to provide them with the mandate to do that, the responsibility that this corporation currently has and is getting millions of dollars for, then let's provide some of that millions of dollars down, streamline it down to the communities. If we are going to mandate it and do it, let's give them the resources to do it. That's all I am saying, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
NWT Housing Corporation
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we proceed through this budget session, we did address some of the key questions. Lutselk'e was one of the six communities identified as being in critical need. We provide additional money to catch up to their housing needs. The Member of Tu Nedhe is expressing the fact of where we are stepping in terms of the administration. I feel that each community is being treated fairly, although there may be other areas we can identify that we could tweak a bit in terms of the UPA concept. Again, we want to work with the communities and we have in some previous consultations with the specific community and try to identify some of those areas we can improve upon. Recognizing we are a small corporation, we have limited resources and it's co-funded with the federal government. We have developed a fairly strong strategy to deal with the conflicts of affordability and also from the administrative perspective provide that level of administrative support in trying to encourage those communities to take the responsibility of delivering those housing programs and services. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
NWT Housing Corporation
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we have to take that word "fair" out of his context and examine it. Maybe it's fair from the Housing Corporation perspective, but if you look at it from the community's perspective, it's not too fair. It's not fair to ask the local body that the Minister appoints to manage this. It's not fair to the manager of the housing authority that he or she is not entirely resourced to do so. I would like to ask the Minister, maybe you should get up from behind your desk and go to the community, send some of your staff to the community, maybe live there for a little while to understand the challenges. I know what you are trying to say, we are trying to devolve and make it work but you don't make it work by devolving responsibility without the resources to make it happen. Let's revisit the resources you are allocating under the universal partnership agreement, so it can work. It's not very difficult. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if you don't provide proper resources, nine times out of ten, every effort will fail. That's all I am saying. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Roger Allen Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will take the comments to heart and we will review it. Thank you.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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NWT Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Go back to page 8-7, department summary, Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, department summary, operation expense, total operation expense, $52.971 million.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Does the committee agree that the NWT Housing Corporation has been concluded?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
At this time, I would like to thank the Minister and his witnesses. I would like to ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witnesses out.
Legislative Assembly Of The Northwest Territories
The next department on the list to deal with is the Legislative Assembly. At this time, I would like to ask the Speaker if he has any opening comments with regard to department estimates. Mr. Speaker.
Speaker's Opening Comments
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, colleagues. I am pleased to present the Legislative Assembly's 2003-2004 main estimates.
The Legislative Assembly is proposing a total operation expense of $14.432 million for the coming fiscal year.
Mr. Chairman, I think it's important to indicate that the Board of Management, in preparing the business plan and main estimates, is guided by the input of Members and I hope it's representative of your needs. Ultimately your direction, either by legislation, regulations or policy determines the level of financial and human resources necessary to provide services to Members and for the day-to-day administration of the Legislative Assembly offices. The board and the Clerk's office are always looking for ways improve the quality and level of services and we remain committed to providing those services in a cost-effective, open, transparent and accountable manner which is what the people of this territory deserve and expect of its elected Assembly.
I would like to remind Members that the appropriations of the Legislative Assembly provide funding for the statutory officers of the Assembly. Funding is provided to the offices of the languages commissioner, the conflict of interest commissioner, information and privacy commissioner and the chief electoral officer.
During the 2003-2004 fiscal year the implementation of the new Human Rights Act will take shape. There is no funding currently identified to fully implement the new act but I can assure Members that we will be coming forward for supplementary funding early in the new year to begin the implementation phase of the new Human Rights Act.
Mr. Chairman, I am sure I do not have to remind you that the proposed main estimates before you today cover the dissolution of the 14th Assembly and the transition to the 15th Legislative Assembly. In an election year, there are increased costs for the conduct of the general election, which will not be required in subsequent fiscal years. There are also some reductions in costs as, traditionally, committees' activities taper off and Members' budgets and allowances are prorated in an election year. However, it would appear that the government has a number of legislative initiatives that may negate the historical reductions we can make in an election year. I can assure Members that there will be sufficient funding for committees as they carry out their responsibilities in the months leading up to this general election. The main estimates before you today, Mr. Chairman, contain a number of forced growth items including:
- • $434,000 for the office of the chief electoral officer to continue preparations for the conduct of the November general election;
- • $160,500 transition allowance for retiring or non-returning Members;
- • $21,000 for orientation for the Members of the 15th Legislative Assembly;
- • $34,600 overall increase to Members' constituency budgets, which is now tied to the consumer price index;
- • $40,000 for furniture and equipment for the new Members of the 15th Assembly.
Mr. Chairman and colleagues, heading into the transition to a new Assembly, always makes for a hectic period of time for MLAs and for our staff as well as the numerous government officials that support our work. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the dedicated work of the staff of the Legislative Assembly and the Government of the Northwest Territories. It takes a dedicated staff and civil service to provide the work we do as a Legislature and government.
I would like to advise Members that we have had a productive last year with an increase in the number of events in the Great Hall and our Caucus Room. These events bring in people from all walks of life, from across the territory, Canada and internationally which serves to enhance our exposure and to promote the NWT.
Mr. Chairman, the Speaker's office will continue to take steps to enhance the cultural diversity of our Legislature and you will see the results of our efforts when we sit later this year, when our Pages will be wearing new uniforms. The uniforms are the result of the work of a number of northern artists, Susan Marie, Darcy Moses and Karen Wright-Fraser. The Speaker's office has also been working on the development of a cultural enhancement program for the Legislative Assembly building. We hope Members will see these two initiatives as enhancements to the appearance of this wonderful facility.
Again, Mr. Chairman, and colleagues, the Board of Management has made every effort to address the needs of the Legislative Assembly and has endeavoured to secure the level of financial and human resources necessary to meet these demands. However, the board and my office, like Members, are ultimately responsible for the decisions we make collectively, as elected representatives of the people of the NWT.
I look forward to the Members' comments and questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With your permission, I would like to introduce my witnesses. On my left side here is Mr. David Hamilton, clerk of the Assembly; and, on my right hand side is Myles Moreside, director of corporate services for the Legislative Assembly.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't think I have ever asked questions on the Legislative Assembly but, since this is the last budget, I do have some questions that have been brought to my attention. I just want to keep it short. The first one is the Great Hall. I think the Speaker mentioned in his speech about how well used this facility is. I have two questions on that. Whenever we have special functions, and we do have a number of them, and I am glad to see that the facility gets used very well, but how about the security people who move furniture around, is that part of their service? Do we pay them to do that or is that just something they do as part of their work?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's part of the contract. There are a number of different things included in there and that's one of them. That's part of the contract.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
These aren't really life changing questions here. The Speaker mentioned different changes he's going to make to the office, cultural enhancement and so on. I noticed lately that the drapes we used to have in the Great Hall aren't there anymore. Is this part of the cultural enhancement project?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Member is referring to those tapestries that were so elegantly hanging in the gallery. They are out for cleaning at the moment. We are having some work done on the overall image of the building. We want to see whether or not they will be replaced in that same position. They could be returned in a short time. There is going to be an overall plan and the Members will be involved in the overall review of the cultural vision of the building. That may be included in it.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
I don't know if this is something that the Board of Management has been discussing or anything. People have asked me about what happened to those tapestries, I shouldn't call them drapes. They were important and people appreciated seeing them there. I wasn't aware they were gone for cleaning. I am hoping they will come back. I am not sure if you could replace them in an economical way and I don't want to see a whole lot of money spent to replace those when the ones that were there were doing a good job. It was pictures of landscapes of the North, so I would like to see them come back unless there are other suggestions for cultural enhancement in the works. If that's the case, then I would like to state that I wouldn't want to see something that's going to cost us a lot of money.
I have another question, and this is something that someone brought to me who works at night. She dropped by the Legislative Assembly building, and she asked me why the building is lit up so brightly at night. I don't know the answer to that and I want to put it on public record. Have there been recent enhancements done to the building that makes the dome light up so bright and is there extra cost, bills? These are some serious questions. I want to know if it's costing us any extra money.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I think the Members will probably recall it in last year's budget that was brought forward and was approved by the House. The honourable Member is correct, we've gone ahead with lighting up the outside of the building. It isn't on all night. It's on for parts of the evening and certain events. Certainly we don't light it up in the summertime. When we don't need to, we save money. In the wintertime, it is one of the tourist attractions, and we've received a tremendous number of compliments on the way the building is now visible from the town due to the lighting. It's still not quite finished.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
For the benefit of the public, are there extra lights that make it light up so much or is it something different we did?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Yes, they are low sodium lights that are energy efficient and you will see more lights this year than in the past years because it is a new project that is going to be a part of the capital site enhancement, but they are energy efficient lights, as energy efficient as we can get them.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
I don't think I heard about the extra expenditures that we have allotted for that extra lighting in the building. I would like an answer to that and I have a question on the security system because I noticed a camera outside my window.
---Laughter
There is this round camera. I just noticed it, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair David Krutko
Could I have some order in the House, please. Ms. Lee, continue your question.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know it is public money we are spending for various security measures. I did notice a camera that is a round ball and I just want to know...
---Laughter
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While it does lend a little bit of humour to the conversation, it is a very serious question Ms. Lee asks. I would like to assuage her fears. These are not roving cameras. They are fixed in certain positions that are pre-assigned. This was part of the security package that was put before the House some time ago. Yes, it did cost us $225,000 to do all of the work, including the light, that has included the camera for security reasons. The safety and security of the staff and the Members are foremost in the mind of the Speaker. The Speaker had put forward a much larger plan prior to that, but the House gave us direction which we followed. There are several new cameras that have been put up and they are monitored by the security. They are in positions that are not as easily watchable by the staff and that's the reason they are there. They are not mobile. They are only fixed to a certain area. It's there to enhance the safety and the security of the building and the honourable Members.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
I realize there was a budget approved for this sort of expenditure last year, but I might have missed this but was there some kind of directive or some rules we are supposed to follow as a Legislature in Canada that served as some kind of impetus to upgrade our security system? What was the cause of us having to take these steps to install cameras and lights and things for security?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a number of different factors that come to play in this. The Speaker had been into the various assemblies across the country, Ontario being one, Alberta being another. We got some ideas from them as to what we could do for security in our building. Perhaps it's not as well-known to Members, but there has been some concern by the Speaker's office and security here for the safety of the Members. There have been some threats in the past and these are just precautions. We have increased the security by using a camera system. We have increased security by using a lighting system that is not quite finished yet and will be as soon as the temperatures warm up a bit and a couple of extra staff during the sitting times. We are very aware that we live in an age now where if we didn't do anything, we could become irresponsible. Our insurance rates are always a factor and that is probably the cheapest way we can reduce a threat to a Member and also reduce insurance rates.
The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is buildings like assemblies, they necessitate special consideration to be given to the physical movement of elected people within the building, employees, visitors, that is the reason we have the pass system that we have. There are perhaps even more elaborate systems that we could put in, but we've come up with a very effective and moderately priced system using the cameras, lights and additional security people.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Legislative Assembly being a territorial institution represents the territorial tourism the best. I don't see too many tourists in my neck of the woods, Mr. Chairman, I would like to talk a bit about the Pages that provide us services in the Legislature. They do a great job. They make our lives a lot easier and the lives of our clerks a lot easier. I would like to ask when a Member brings in Pages from their communities, what is the responsibility of the Member? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the past, the Pages would be selected from the schools here in Yellowknife. There was very little cost associated with it except for the wages we would pay the Pages and the uniforms they would wear and getting them to and from their school to here. At the request of the Members, over the years the board has agreed to allow Members to bring in students from their ridings up to so many a year to match with those that are here already. In the past, it was the total responsibility of the Member for transportation, for food and lodging and the care of the students while they were here. The policy was that the schools would do the selecting and not the Members and that the Member would be responsible for the student to page us while they were here. In response to the Members' requests, the board agreed to pay the transportation costs, and part of that transportation cost would come out of the Member's constituency budget. The board agreed to pay for two students a year for each of the ridings that chose to bring students in here. However, the responsibility for the page when they were in town, in the city here, would be that of the Member. The Legislative Assembly could not and should not get involved in the keeping and maintaining of students. It takes on a very serious responsibility and that is why the Members are asked to be responsible for their Pages coming from their communities.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, from the Speaker's answer, I would assume that I would be assuming the liability if I decide to bring in Pages from my communities. I don't have a choice in the selection, so I can't bring in my family. Whoever's kid I bring in, I'm going to have to assume the responsibility. I would like to ask the Speaker then, Mr. Chairman, what is the responsibility of a Yellowknife Member when Pages come from Yellowknife?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In answer to the Member's concerns, that there is no responsibility for students that come here. The school assigns the student, picks the student based on the selection criteria of the school. They must be good students, able to be away from school for that period of time because it does take in half of each day. The parents must complete and sign the appropriate forms. They must give that release, a medical release must also be assigned and the Legislative Assembly must be aware of any medical condition of the student and social insurance numbers and stuff, like technical data. But the Yellowknife Members, each of the ridings in Yellowknife, are not responsible for that, it is strictly a school selection and recommendations.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, you and my colleagues would probably agree with me that there is some inequity here. We're a territorial institution, this is the house of the people. What happens in here affects everybody and why shouldn't the students in my communities or from Holman Island, Fort Smith, Wrigley, Jean Marie River, Fort Good Hope, Tu Nedhe have the same opportunity as a student that is living in Yellowknife to come here and experience how their government provides program and services to them. This house should be an example, not a restriction, to these students. Those kinds of programs make a world of difference to a little girl or a little boy. These kind of little things would motivate a student to work hard all year to achieve the grades they need so that they could qualify to come here for a week. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that the Speaker direct his staff to remedy the inequity on this issue here. I would like to have the same opportunity for my students to come here and serve us in this House, the same opportunity as a student has in Yellowknife, and why don't I have the same responsibility as a Member from Yellowknife when the students from my schools come here? I shouldn't have to take responsibility for my student, who is a Northwest Territories resident, to serve his Member here in the House. It should be the responsibility of the Legislature. They should take on that responsibility and any liability that goes along with it. That's the right thing to do, Mr. Speaker or Mr. Chairman, I mean. I apologize.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is correct in some parts of his comments here. The students that are serving as Pages here from across the Territories are examples to the rest of Canada. They are the youngest Pages, probably, in the Commonwealth if I dare go far so far as to say that. They are truly an example, a good example and truly they do aspire to other things. I think that the Member would be very, very proud of his students if he were to take responsibility and bring them in. Already, we have had five different Members bringing in students under the criteria that we've used. The board has gone a long way already to meet Members requirements for Pages and it is a system that I am very proud to support, but I don't think that the Members would want this Legislative Assembly to become ultimately responsible for babysitting students. The Members themselves, should take on that responsibility and be proud of getting their kids in here, and I think the community would applaud the Member for taking that kind of responsibility, and parents would feel secure in letting them stay with the Member, rather than in a hotel somewhere under the supervision of the Speaker or his staff.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if the Yellowknife Members want to help babysit my constituents who provide the same services that their constituents do, then maybe I will agree to that but this is just another example of the blatant inequality of how this government provides services to the communities. Why should I be responsible for babysitting my constituents so that they could provide a service in this House when five other young students are here at no expense to their Members? Not a dime, not time, no responsibility. Again, how do you justify an institution that is territorial to benefit only a select few? I'm a busy man, Mr. Chairman. I have a meeting after this. I have a person waiting for me to finish here so I can go meet with him tonight. I have meetings first thing in the morning. A Minister who's got a responsibility to a department and the entire Cabinet is very busy. Do you think they have time to babysit? Should they be responsible to take care of people that are students that provide us services? Can we expect them and ask them to do so? It's restricting me; it's restricting an opportunity for my constituents to participate in this House and the procedures of this House. I do believe that it is the Legislative Assembly's responsibility. If they are going to make that opportunity available to students in Yellowknife, then it is only right, if not a human right, if not a legislative right but it is the right thing to do to make those same opportunities for my constituent and every other constituency in Northwest Territories, not just Yellowknife.
It should have to depend on the participation of their Members. The Members are here to represent their constituents in matters of politics and all areas. We shouldn't have to take on the added responsibility that other Members get for free. I represent two communities and by extension I represent three, four political bodies. That's a lot of responsibility. Some Members represent four, five and six communities. That's a lot of responsibility. Well we have seven Members here that represent one community and they get this for free. Where is the equity in this? Where is the fairness in this? No, I don't agree with the Speaker. It should not be the responsibility of their MLAs, it should be the responsibility of the Legislative Assembly and if they intend to go along with this, then I have to assist...
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am afraid I can't comment too much on the honourable Member's concerns. If he wishes, he may take those concerns to the Board of Management and thee board will review the suggestions. The board and the Speaker certainly feel that we have a good program, and we'd like to continue this. If there are ways of improving it, we'd be glad to do that. But there are certain liabilities, there are certain responsibilities I'm sure that the honourable Members will agree that we cannot take on and should not take on. I'll leave it to the honourable Members to make that decision.
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I just have two short questions on the opening comments, particularly on page 3 where it references, "we will see a reflection of our cultural diversity through the uniform the Pages will be wearing." Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the Speaker and his staff are well aware of the cultural diversity in the Northwest Territories, and I would like to ask if all the cultures will be reflected in these uniforms.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think over the years we've seen various changes in the uniforms from the Pages. We've tried at different times to reflect what is now two territories -- Nunavut and the Northwest Territories -- and some of the uniforms the honourable Member will remember, there were sealskins with beads, and there were vests. We've tasked a group of northern artists to come up with ideas, and come up with a design for reflecting the northern cultures. Ms. Marie is well-known, as is Darcy Moses and Ms. Fraser, and the Members will, I think, be pleased when they do see them. I'm not able to show you at the moment or describe what they are at the moment, but I think that the selection will meet with the approval of the members.
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that. I know that the three artists who are mentioned are extremely proficient in their profession. However, I'm wondering if there was any effort made to obtain artists with an Inuvialuit background, so that the uniforms reflecting Inuvialuit culture would be designed by Inuvialuit artists.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The uniforms are part of what we would like to see the Legislative Assembly reflect eventually. There was a request for proposals sent out, and the three people involved here were the ones who submitted to the team the best proposal, and those are the ones who they selected. A lot of people had an opportunity to put forward proposals, and those were the ones we thought were the best and we went with. I'm hoping that when we do see the end result that they will reflect the Inuvialuit culture, as they would the Sahtu or the Metis or the Dogrib or the Gwich'in, and we could go on. I don't know if we can cover everything, but we certainly will give it a try.
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that the Assembly Board of Management probably took into consideration the fact that the best reflection of culture is through the artists, to actually have an artist who has a background in that particular culture. I'm not suggesting that the three here are not familiar with the Inuvialuit culture, but at the same time I would have liked some assurance that the Inuvialuit artists were given opportunity to respond request for proposals, or tenders, whatever the Assembly put out.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again I'm not sure how we could guarantee each member equality in reflection of the particular culture. But when we did put the request for proposals out, people of the North, from Thebacha to Nunakput, had an opportunity to submit proposals. I don't recall whether or not we got any from that area. We had to move on and we did, and I'm sure that the artists will endeavour to reflect the true North in their work. We also have, and will have in the next little while here, people speaking to Members about what they would like to see in the Assembly. I, for one, would like to see some plan come up that will capture the whole of the North in a very few square feet within this building, of different areas or different regions and different traditions, and capture the spirit of the North. I think we've done a magnificent job already -- we try hard -- and I think that each member should be looking forward to speaking to that group that are tasked to come up with a plan for the cultural enhancement of the building.
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, thank you. This will be my last comment here, but I'm sure that the Legislative Assembly is not going to close down in the next year or two, so I would suggest that over time I would like to see some uniforms made by Inuvialuit artists; the same as our Mace reflects all of our communities and our cultures. I think there were some Inuvialuit artists involved in making the Mace, so I'm sure that we could find some Inuvialuit artists who would be pleased to take part in designing uniforms on a small scale, on a small percentage of the overall number of uniforms, that would reflect our culture.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure that we will, in the future, meet even more of the honourable Member's expectations. I think that from where I'm sitting, I'm looking at an Inuvialuit carving sitting over the top of the Speaker's chair. There's the reflection of the talent and work that is in our Mace here. If you look out at the back of the hall here, you'll see an enormous sculpture that was created by Inuvialuit carvers. I think that his concerns are probably very well represented in this building as it is, and we hope to work to achieve even more in the future, with his input.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Three points; first I'd like to reflect on Mr. Nitah's discussion about Pages, and Pages coming in to serve here in the Assembly from the communities. I learned something tonight, that we have perhaps in the Commonwealth the youngest Pages of potentially any Parliament, and I think that's something we should be proud of and we should enhance. The discussion is one that I would like the Board of Management to pursue -- and I would only like to recommend tonight, Mr. Chairman, that perhaps through the course of our discussion, Mr. Whitford as the chair of the board, and the Members have heard enough and I hope that this can be carried to Board of Management at its next meeting or a meeting in the near future -- that it could consider revisiting the policy on how Pages are brought in from the communities. I think it is an issue that deserves some further consideration. But I would like to at least recommend that we leave it to the Board of Management to consider.
A question that I would like to pose, Mr. Chairman, regards public access to the Great Hall. There was a request that came in last year at some point. A territorial group wanted to use the Great Hall for a workshop. Because of some considerations that were in our policies at the time, their request was declined or denied. That's fine. It was done by the rules or the ideas that were on the books at the time. But I do recall that the Board of Management, in response to a request from me, said they would reconsider the policy of access to the Great Hall. I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, if that policy has indeed be reconsidered, and do we have a new set of criteria for access by public groups to the Great Hall? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I am aware of the concerns of the member. Part of the decision to make the decision that we did was based on concerns by committee chair. At the time, the committee was reviewing a particular bill and it was too close to the meetings of the committee and the group that was going to be meeting. Board of Management is always concerned with the non-partisan use of the Great Hall. We have certain restrictions as far as picket signs and protests, where there are concerns, so we enforce that. We're also concerned when groups want to deal with certain issues that are perhaps to be confused with committee meetings that are taking place at approximately the same time on the same subject, and this was part of it. The policy hasn't been developed yet that will totally address all of the concerns of the public. I think there has to be some latitude for the board to make certain decisions on particular use. So that's where it stands.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Braden.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So just for clarification, has the policy of access to the Great Hall been considered and has it been decided to leave it as is, and that is the decision of the board? Just for clarification. Thank you.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, we haven't yet finalized the decision. We're having some difficulty in determining the interpretation of non-partisan, which is causing the most concern. We're trying to come up with a proper interpretation of that term.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Braden.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the answer and I'll continue to monitor the meetings and the agendas of the board and see if we can work toward a revision of that policy. I don't have it before me tonight so I don't want to pursue it anymore in this context.
The third and final item I would like to ask about, Mr. Speaker, and it concerns potentially -- let's call it part of the d‚cor -- and the symbol and the identity here in the Legislative Assembly. I would direct members' attention to the polar bear hide that's on the floor in front of us, colleagues. This is obviously an important symbol and I think a popular one and a well-respected one among Northerners, and obviously among visitors. Our bear is sort of showing signs of use and fondness, as the hair on his poor snout is getting kind of threadbare. Some of the taxidermy around his great jaws is a little shabby. Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the restoration and the care of this bear is something that is under the responsibility of the Legislative Assembly. To restore his dignity, could the Chair look into some restoration? Thank you.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's indeed a very good comment, good question on the honourable bear that is here. This bear has a long, long history for this Assembly. This bear was donated by one of the honourable Members -- I think Mr. Pudluk -- some time ago. He used to be Deputy Speaker and a long-serving Member, the Dean of the House for a while. Indeed it has seen an awful lot, and it's felt an awful lot as well. It's an attraction for young people. Indeed it is losing its hair, like some of the honourable Members.
---Laughter
As soon as the Assembly is over, Mr. Chairman, this bear is going to be taken by a taxidermist company here in town and properly stabilized and restored to its dignity. Mr. Speaker would also welcome any other suggestions for a display of some of our history, some of our historical connection to the land. A suggestion has been for the honourable Member for Nunakput to donate to this House a muskox carpet, perhaps, or a bison from Thebacha or the Deh Cho that would symbolize the connection to the land. But I can assure the honourable Members that when they return in the June session not only will they see new uniforms on the Pages, but a rejuvenated bear.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Braden.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Okay, great, thank you. If the board would be so kind as to share any information it can find out about hair restoration, some Members, I'm sure, would appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. General comments. Mr. McLeod.
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Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to take too much time; it's getting fairly late, but I do have a couple questions. Mr. Nitah raised the issue of Pages, and it's been a very good program and I've tried on an annual basis to try to get a couple Pages in here and it's been working out fairly well. However, I'm quite concerned when Mr. Nitah brought up the issue about liability. It was always something I thought was covered under this House, and I'm not so certain anymore. Could the Speaker tell me when we have Pages travelling en route and when they're here, who assumes the liability? Do I assume it as an MLA when I bring Pages down? Is it my liability? Do I have to assume the liability on that? Could the Speaker answer that?
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, indeed, the Member is quite correct in his concerns. There are two different types of liability, I assume. When the Pages are travelling with the honourable Member, they're covered to the same extent, I've been informed, as duty travel if they're assigned to be here for that particular purpose. If they're on their own, they're on their own. That's a different matter, if they come on their own. But if they're coming with a Member and they're the responsibility of the Member, they would be covered under duty travel.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. McLeod.
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Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, I also asked about when the Pages are here in the city of Yellowknife, does the liability fall under my responsibility?
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Mr. Chairman, thank you. The honourable Member is correct. In the past -- and I'm going only on historical data here -- the Member would assume that responsibility. They would be happy to chaperone the students, to put them up in their own accommodations and to look after them, or in a hotel with a chaperone. I believe some of the honourable Members have had their constituency assistants travel with them, stay in a hotel with them, and they took on that responsibility. The honourable Members in the past have always enjoyed that kind of rapport with their young people. You know, this Legislative Assembly has made a lot of effort to involve youth in its programs, and we take great pride that we're going into our fourth year for Youth Parliament, which is recognized throughout the Commonwealth as being one of the forerunners in Youth Parliaments. It takes place in here every year. It is very well represented by students from across the North representing the honourable Members.
But for the Page program, historically, Members took on that responsibility, chaperoned the students or had their assistants do that, and the program seemed to have worked well.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. McLeod.
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Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, I do take pride in bringing Pages to this House, however, I was never aware that I would be personally liable. I think that's something that has never been spelled out up to now. We, as out-of-town representatives, are certainly at a disadvantage then. I mean, it's bad enough we have to come to Yellowknife to hire our staff here because that's the only way we can be fairly efficient at being involved as things happen around here, and if we don't utilize some of the services in the Great Hall and other things; but now the Pages, I have to be personally responsible. Isn't there some kind of an insurance program we could access that would cover this?
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think maybe the direction that we're going in is probably not quite correct. We're talking a lot of insurance as far as financial and this type of coverage. I don't think that's what I meant. I'm referring to the responsibilities that the member would assume, and assure the parents that they're going to supervise the young people who come here. They're going to take them under their wings, so to speak, and be more responsible for the moral part of it, for lack of a better term. They're going to get to bed on time, they're going to get up in the morning on time, they're not going to be rowdy or doing things that they normally wouldn't do.
I think that's what I was probably referring to, more than the sense of an accident happening. Youth who do come here as Pages are generally quite responsible. In the past, the supervision given by the honourable Members has never been that onerous. They've never had... Very, very few, in my recollection have ever been a problem. Perhaps getting them down to eat on time and getting them up in the morning to have their breakfast on time and to get down to the Assembly on time; those kinds of things are really incidental and they're minor inconveniences at best.
I think the direction that this is taking seems to be that is a tremendous load on the Member. I assure you it isn't. It could be seen by the community as being a very important part of young people's upbringing, and a very valuable contribution to the community by the honourable Members by doing something like this. I see the direction going in an area here where we're talking about insurance and stuff like that. That's not what I had in mind. It's the parental guidance that the parent has tasked over to the honourable Members, that they should be more than happy... I would be more than happy to take it on.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. McLeod.
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Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, as Mr. Nitah pointed out, there's a double standard here. None of the Yellowknife MLAs have to look after... They don't take any responsibility over their Pages. We, on the other hand, have to assume liability over them, and we have to pay for it out of our budgets. A lot of times, I have to consider whether I should bring in Pages or take a trip to my riding. This is a completely different set of responsibilities, and it's not about getting them out of bed on time or putting them to bed. Those things are fairly easy to take care of, and I'm sure every out-of-town MLA here does that. But how can this House expect us to be liable, personally liable, for our Pages when they come from the community? That is a real... That's a complete, two-tiered system when we start dealing with other MLAs versus the local MLAs. So I'd like to know if the Speaker would look at this whole situation, and see if we could at least try to balance it out. I don't think everybody was aware that we would be personally responsible for our Pages. That could be a huge liability if something happened.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I'm getting a bit concerned with the vision that some of the members are getting with what their responsibilities are, and talk of personal liabilities. I don't think that that was the intention of my comments. When I refer to liability as a responsibility of parental responsibility, you're bringing someone here and you're going to look after them. You're assuring the parents that you're doing that. I don't think it's a matter of them getting hurt and that you're going to be personally responsible. That's not the issue.
As far as the fairness is concerned; well, if the honourable Members don't think this is fair, then they should bring some recommendations to the Board of Management. We'll take that under advisement and see if we can come up with something. Currently we pay for the transportation of two students per year per member. We've gone that far. If the honourable Members wish to have this changed, then approach the Board of Management, make the recommendations to the Board of Management. The Board of Management, in its wisdom, will make its decision based on that and perhaps come forward with more money to do it.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. McLeod.
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Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I'll take the direction from the Speaker and bring the issue to the Board of Management. It's certainly a big issue and it just can't be overlooked anymore. It's something that has to be balanced out. We should not be put in a position to be liable, in terms of getting sued or anything if something happens to the Pages. Everybody should be on the same playing field at this point.
I also just want to ask the Speaker about affirmative action. I see in his opening comments he's trying to get the House to reflect the traditions and the culture. I'd like to know about the affirmative action content in his staff. People tune into this House every day and we don't see a lot of aboriginal staff in this building, at least not up front.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I heard the comments and the concerns of the honourable Member. I can assure him that we've given it our best shot over the past little while. We do have a good number of aboriginal people working within the building. The honourable Members have their choice of who they hire, as well, for their assistants, and I think they set the trend as well. But we follow the normal hiring practices here, and be assured that affirmative action is one of the things that we apply as is required. I'm not sure where we can go with that at the moment but, as positions come available, aboriginal people should be encouraged to apply. Then certainly the Affirmative Action Policy will be enforced and applied wherever it's necessary.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. General comments. Ms. Lee.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you. Just a couple of points. On the Page program I've been listening, and I'd like to also recommend that the Speaker, as the chair of the Board of Management, take this issue to the Board of Management to look into it further. I acknowledge that and I appreciate that I think the Page program has improved over the last two or three years, because prior to that we didn't have a system where the out-of-town members could bring Pages here. But I think it is a fair point that the Yellowknife Members take it for granted that our school children come here and they get to see the workings of the Assembly and have the benefit of it, and that similar services and programs should be available to the other Members and their young constituents.
This is such an honourable place, and I know that Youth Parliament, for example, has given an opportunity for the young to come here and see what their Members do. I know that the Paging program in Ottawa is one that is very prestigious and that attracts students from all over Canada to serve as a Page in Parliament, except that I guess in Ottawa, they have older Pages and some of them are in college and university, so you don't have to worry about looking after them and lots of other things that come to play here. So there are a lot more cost implications, I appreciate that, because we have Pages who are much younger.
Maybe to accommodate the out-of-town MLAs, maybe we could raise the age of Pages who come from out of town. Maybe they could be teenagers. Well, maybe they need more care, I don't know. But there are lots of other things to consider. I know that for Youth Parliament, lots of staff actually volunteer and give up their personal time to supervise them for 24 hours a day. So just to have them for a week is the thing. But if Board of Management could put their brains into it and address the matter in detail and in a thorough manner, maybe all of these issues could be looked at and addressed. I think that if we could come up with $250,000 to put a camera outside of my window, I think that we could address our minds to come up with a program to address this issue and to really give a fair chance. This is not about the Members, it's about the kids who could have that opportunity to see what happens here and I think that's very important. So that's one issue.
The second issue that I want to ask the Speaker to bring to the Board of Management, and it's something that came to me when I received correspondence from the Speaker's office in February... I don't know how much of it is public so I don't want to divulge too much, but I think that we're aware that there is some sort of succession planning in the offing and I'm sure that appropriate and well-deserved recognition will be given in due course. So I know that the Board of Management is considering this, and I'm wondering if the Speaker would consider looking into some sort of affirmative action for the management of the Assembly? I say this because this is such a symbolic place and we are looked upon as a public example to do good and to follow the policies of the government wherever possible. For me, the House officers and Clerk's office is the management of the Legislative Assembly. I really believe that wherever possible that it should reflect the affirmative action that we espouse.
So I'd like to know if the Speaker would address with the Board of Management to set up a program to train and hire aboriginal House officers and women House officers, as well as everyone else. I mean that for future planning. I don't mean that for any of the incumbents here, because I know we are certainly given very good service and advice and I appreciate that very much. But I think that whenever an institution like this is going through succession planning that only comes once in a while, it might be a good time to look at that. So I'd like to know if the Speaker would be willing to bring that to Board of Management.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, those are good comments, and be assured that the board has already looked at succession planning and it will consider all of the things that the honourable Member has raised. It's already begun and we're just waiting for some feedback, and we certainly will take into consideration what the Member has put forward.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Ms. Lee.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Further to that, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Deh Cho brought up statistics on affirmative action. I think that the stats would show that the Legislative Assembly as a whole could do better in terms of affirmative action stats. I think probably I could say that about most of the departments.
Another thing I want to add to that is the Clerk's office encompasses a whole array of services. Most of the work done in the Assembly is under the auspices of the Clerk's office, and House officers, to me, are the management. They are the top of this Assembly, and that should be where the affirmative action should be most applied and reflected. In your discussion with the Board of Management, I wonder if you would make sure that there is an internal mobility focused in that as well, because in every department we want to make sure that affirmative candidates are brought in, then moved up, trained and given opportunities to be promoted and grow in those jobs. The guiding principle of affirmative action is that there are no barriers put in place that would discriminate against one group or another.
So in your discussions with Board of Management about this, I want to make sure that you will address your mind to making sure that you look within the government to see who may be able to be placed in a position to be trained to be a House officer, along with everyone else who are in place so that it properly reflects the population that we serve. I think that there's a lot of work being done by the Speaker's office to make sure our cultures are reflected in our surroundings, as well as the manpower that's used here; man and woman power.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments the honourable Member has made and I believe the Board of Management will take those considerations and deal with them. One of the elements in the succession plan is to recruit or actively seek out and recruit affirmative action people and put the training in place that will see them achieve what the honourable Member is suggesting. I think if you look at the workforce, it does reflect to a greater degree than probably is visible the affirmative action guidelines, the length of time people are here, born and raised in the Territories. We would certainly welcome more suggestions on how to improve this from the honourable Members as time goes by.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
General comments. Mr. Krutko.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as we all know, we are going into an election year and there is going to be a transition between this Assembly and the 15th Assembly. In most cases, coming from the 13th Assembly and then going into the 14th, I really notice a difference with regard to accountability, protocol and what you are accountable for and what you are not accountable for.
One thing I see is there is more paperwork than ever before. I think that there is a point of accountability, but there is also a point of overkill. I would like to ask the Board of Management have they considered, knowing there is going to be a transitional document of some sort for the new government, have they looked at the Members' Handbook or our rules and procedures that we have to operate under with regard to the problems we have run into with accountability or expenses, for travel, for the problems we run into in trying to do our job as a Member, what you can do and what you can't do?
I feel that this 14th Assembly is more restricted than we were in the 13th Assembly. To do your job, you have to keep looking through a microscope to see if it's okay to do it or it's not okay. You have to get permission to do this and you have to pack the handbook around with you. Are there any efforts going to be made to have a review of existing policies and guidelines that we have in place for Members to carry out their responsibilities as elected Members to this Legislature? And is there going to be input from Members of this Assembly to have a say on areas that are controversial and the possibility of looking at recommendations to the 15th Assembly, so they can have a chance to rework some of these rules to make them more workable?
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The honourable Member's comments are appreciated and heard. I personally don't know of any review of the handbook that's taking place because I have always assumed and have been assured that it does follow the Legislative Assembly's policies. This is just a guideline to meet those particular policies. There are things that are perhaps difficult to deal with, but a simple phone call or a meeting of the administrative staff will certainly clear that. I don't think that we can operate without rules and guidelines. Those guidelines are there and have been modified since I first started in the Assembly and it makes it quite clear and oftentimes too clear.
If the Member has some particular suggestions that we could use to enhance that book or the transition to the next Assembly, we would certainly appreciate them and it would help us and the next Assembly make things more streamlined. But be assured that the policies and acts that have been set out by this House and the government are being applied and I don't wish to see that changed, smoothed out, yes. If there are some suggestions the honourable Member can make to help us, we certainly would entertain that.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, that's exactly what I am asking for. Will there be input from the 14th Assembly to look at the policies and guidelines we follow and make recommendations to the Board of Management or the Speaker that these things should be changed or considered through the transitional document for the 15th Assembly, that these are things maybe you should look at through amendments of the Legislative Assembly Act or look at the acts and regulations they have in place. I will use an example, this just happened lately with regard to a funeral. I got a request from a constituent to go to a funeral. So you get the request, I got a letter from the band council in McPherson to attend a funeral. Then I am told you can't go because it's outside your constituency.
The North is a small place. Everybody knows each other. Regardless of where you are from either through marriage or relationships or whatever, we are spread out throughout the whole NWT. A constituent moves from one riding to another person's riding. In the North, these are day-to-day things. That's what makes us unique. Everybody has a connection to someone else. Yet, we don't draw lines on a map and say sorry, if you die on that side of the line, you are out of luck. That's what it's coming down to. My view is in things like that, common sense should apply. Common sense should state that there is a direct association between yourself and a constituent and a family member, that if that's what the community is requesting that you do, so be it. But because the way the rules are, you can't be seen in another constituent's riding or be seen in another geographical area because it's outside of your geographical constituency. Common sense things.
As a Legislature, sometimes these rules that were put in place go overboard and the whole aspect of accountability is getting so stringent that every time you want to do anything, you have to get permission. As a Member and an elected official of this government, there should be some leeway given to Members to say you are accountable to your constituency first, but you are also accountable to the expenditures you make as a Member. There has to be a balance there. As a government, we sometimes lose sight of who we are representing here. Are we becoming the bureaucracy within the bureaucracy or are we there as a Legislature to ensure we have the flexibility to carry out our duties as elected Members without being hindered or put into a situation where there are things that you want to do and you don't have the ability to do it. People in our communities that want us to do something, they think we can pick up the phone and do it just like that. If you say sorry, under this rule I can't do that, I am restricted, I can't be seen as fund raising or donating money. Yes, rules are okay but we are in a small geographical area. The way things are done in the North aren't done in Ottawa or wherever else.
My concern is we made amendments to the Legislative Assembly act and we made some changes to the way Members have to abide by certain rules and there are times that we should review those rules to make sure they are workable and are working for the extent that they were put in place for, but not to handcuff the Member from trying to carry out his responsibility. There have been a lot of arguments between staff people in the Legislative Assembly and Members. I think if that's happening, it tells me there is something wrong with the way people are interpreting the rules we have in place. I think we should look at our rules to see what's working and what's not. All I am asking for is that we have the opportunity to do that during the term of what's left of this 14th Assembly, so we consider making some recommendations to the 15th Assembly to consider those changes.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The comments by the honourable Member are welcomed as they always are. The honourable Member will, for personal recollection, know that he's approached the board many times for dispensation on certain rules that affect everything from travel to housing. The board has always taken things into consideration when it's in the best interest of meeting the Member's needs and falling within the policies and guidelines as set up by this House. We aim to please.
The board would more than welcome any contribution the honourable Member would make by way of letter or presentations to the board to deal with specific issues. Accountability is an issue, I guess that's interpretable. We certainly are in the forefront of how we do things here. The public will watch how the Members conduct themselves and what we do for Members. Know that we are looking after the best interest of the people of the Territories. The Board of Management would certainly be happy to hear and read what the honourable Member would put forward to them.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Dent.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I was following the comments made by Mr. Nitah and Mr. McLeod earlier on the issue of Pages. I would certainly welcome the Board of Management taking a look at that issue and ensuring that they consider the points raised by those two Members in terms of bringing Pages in from communities outside of Yellowknife.
I know that the board is always concerned about budgets and living within our means. The fiscal outlook is not perhaps as bright as we would like. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that when the board takes a look at that, they might want to take a look at where the money could come from. I know I would certainly be prepared to support a reduction in the Legislative Assembly's participation in Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I think reducing it to the membership and the Speaker travelling to functions is probably appropriate. I would think we could save a considerable amount of money if we didn't send a raft of Members off to different things around the world with this organization. I, too, would encourage the board to take a look at it and fund it from within. Let's improve the access for Members to bring Pages in from their communities, but let's stay within the budget and stop sending so many Members to different parts of Canada and around the world. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Member for his comments. If that's the direction that this House gives the board, we certainly would be pleased to entertain that kind of a suggestion. It is this House that approves the budgets and it would be this House that would authorize any kind of change such as have been suggested by all of the Members. If there is an increase in the Speaker's budget to bring in more Pages and to look after them by putting in the necessary stuff, if the House approves that kind of money, I am sure that that kind of a policy could probably be arranged. It's just that from past experience, perhaps not always the best teacher, but it seemed to have worked in the past and the Members were quite pleased with what they were doing, but times are changing. The board will take under advisement any suggestions made by the honourable Members to make the representation by Members and their constituencies more known in this House and to enhance cultural opportunities and the educational opportunities of young people in this House. The board will take direction from the House. Thank you.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Mr. Chairman, I certainly appreciate the support from Members on this side of the House on my request for consideration of Pages being brought in from every community in the NWT. I think it's only fair that that's done.
Mr. Chairman, in the last little while we have been arguing quite passionately over harmonization policy. I have asked every department about their employees in the communities. I won't make the Speaker and the Legislative Assembly an exception, so I will ask the Speaker how many employees does this Legislative Assembly have in our communities? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Mr. Chairman, we don't have any programs out in the communities other than the honourable Members and their constituency offices that they may or may not have and the equipment that they have. The business of the Legislative Assembly is in this building. Its investment is within the honourable Members, all 19 of them. That's as far as we can go with it at the moment. Every four years, we increase our staff considerably. We have some 360 people working for a short period of time to get all of the things necessary to conduct a proper and orderly election of the honourable Members every four years, but that's about the extent outside of the capital business.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Nitah.
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Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sometimes I think this government should use the number of hours used as a statistic instead of percentage of employees, especially in the area of affirmative action. However, Mr. Chairman, four of us, including yourself, when we exclude Cabinet, represent 28 communities. Yet, we don't have much more resources than those Members who represent one community or one community having seven Members. It takes a considerable amount of time, energy and resources to represent all those people, all those communities and all those interest groups.
For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I encourage the Speaker as chairman of the Board of Management to look at ways to improve our budget, so we can have people employed in each of our communities that we represent, so we could bring information from those communities and we could send information through the constituency assistants to the Members of our communities. Not only political direction but if RWED has a new program, we could inform our constituents through that office. If Education, Culture and Employment has a new program, we could inform our constituents through that office. Currently it's very difficult to do that. A lot of us at this time of the year have to consider laying off staff members that we have. We usually have one here in Yellowknife. It's not equitable to hire one staff member in Res and not one in Lutselk'e. If a person like yourself Mr. Chairman, represents three communities, you can't hire three people in each community because you don't have the budget. I think it's high time to recognize the workload that each Member has in their representation.
I don't know how many times we have said in this House we are experiencing unprecedented levels of development, political development. I have an Akaitcho Territory negotiating implementation of treaty. It's a government-to-government relationship with this government and the federal government. I represent the Metis Nation of the NWT. They are doing the same thing. I have three diamond mines in my constituency. We have a pipeline going down the Mackenzie Valley. We have all kinds of other developments. That takes our time. We just finished the Special Committee on the Review of the Official Languages Act. That took a lot of time. We had to create a special committee to review the relationship between this government and non-tax-based communities. That takes a lot of time. We just agreed to establish another community to look at harmonization a little closer. That's going to take time. That takes time away from our families and our constituents. I think it's only fair that this government recognizes it. The Members need the resources, so the Members can do the jobs they got hired and elected to do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Speaker.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Member for his comments. The board has always been responsive to the needs of the individual Members as they put their cases forward for not only the work that they do in their constituency, but their own comforts while they are here in the capital city. We have always managed to meet within our budget or seek a few dollars more to be able to accommodate and we greatly appreciate any comments and suggestions that would come forward to make our job easier and representation better across the Territories. That same offer still stands.
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Some Hon. Members
Detail.
Detail
Office Of The Clerk
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The Chair David Krutko
Detail. Page 1-9, Office of the Clerk, operation expense, total operation expense, $7.592 million. Ms. Lee.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, may I get a breakdown under this item? I understand the committee's expenses are under this item as well. Could I get -- if not right now perhaps later on -- a breakdown of expenditures by each committee by reasonable categories of staffing, travel, contract services, what sort of contract services? Perhaps I could be provided with the general numbers, committee by committee, what the expenditures have been.
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was going to suggest we provide that to the honourable Member later, but I do have the budget for 2002-2003 breakdown, if this committee will allow me to read it off. The Board of Management, for example, $100,000; clerk's conference, $5,000; special functions, $15,000; Christmas function, $5,000; CPA, $90,000; youth parliament, $15,000; information and privacy commissioner, $35,000; conflict of interest, $40,000; Accountability and Oversight, $195,500; Governance and Economic Development, $135,000; Social Programs, $85,000; Rules and Procedures, $7,000; and, Caucus, $50,000 for a total of $777,500. We can provide a copy later.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that info. Could I get a more detailed breakdown later on? Not included in there are special committee expenditures. Could I be provided with that, please?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Mr. Chairman, because of the detail of that, would it be possible to provide that to the honourable Member later rather than here?
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Mr. Chairman, I don't believe I have any other option. I can't even ask an oral question on that one. I will be satisfied to get that information later on when it's ready. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair David Krutko
Executive summary, office of the clerk, operation expense, total operation expense, $7.592 million.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Office Of The Speaker
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 1-13, expenditures on behalf of Members, operation expense, total operation expense, $5.32 million. Ms. Lee.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May I get a breakdown of what constitutes Members' pension expenditures?
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is that the yearly expenditure that the Assembly makes to the pension fund?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It does fluctuate from year to year. Some years it goes down, some years it goes up. It depends on a number of factors.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ought to know that, but I can't remember. Can I get clarification on what constitutes this expenditure? Is that money coming out of the government or is it just something we keep an account of?
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Tony Whitford Kam Lake
Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I will ask Mr. Moreside to respond to that. He's got the actual document in front of him.
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Moreside
Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's an accounting entry that's required by the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants public sector accounting concept. The accounting number is PS-3250. It's to recognize a liability for pensions due to interest in the amortization of past service gains and losses.
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The Chair David Krutko
Expenditures on behalf of Members, operation expense, total operation expense, $5.320 million.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Office of the chief electoral officer, operations expense, total operations expense, $876,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Commissioner of official languages, operation expense, total operation expense, $501,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 1-19, work on behalf of others, detail of work performed on behalf of others, total department, $20,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 1-7, Legislative Assembly, department summary, operation expense, total operation expense, $14.432 million.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
Does the committee agree that the Department of the Legislative Assembly has concluded?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair David Krutko
I would like to thank the Speaker and his witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the witnesses out?
At this time, I believe that was the schedule the committee agreed to deal with. I would like to ask what is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, I recommend we continue consideration of Bill 3 and consider it clause by clause.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed