Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My comment will be very short. Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in favour of this motion to defer. Mr. Speaker, I may be the only MLA - I don't know for sure - who does not have any social housing in her riding. As far as I am aware, we don't have social housing in my riding, so I am not speaking in response to any direct communication from my constituents. It may change after my statement today. Mr. Speaker, my position here is as a Member of this Legislature keeping in mind some other principles I would like to follow.

One is that it's not hard to be in favour of something that would streamline and improve a government policy. At the first look at this policy, it seemed reasonable to me. I was provided with information to show how this was going to improve. But one thing I am having problems with is the fact that a lot of Members who are asking legitimate questions with respect to this policy are not able to get this information. I, for one, value good information I get as a Member here and I have to support Members and I want to support Members who are searching for that information. I am astounded at the fact that half of questions that are being asked about this program have either been taken as notice or as something that would be replied to later on.

That is my second point. There is not a lot of "later ons" for the government to sort this out. This is supposed to come into effect on April 1st. We are going to be adjourning the session next week, and we will be going off in whatever direction, and this policy will come into effect, and I don't think it's fair if the Members aren't getting the kind of legitimate and detailed answers they want to get.

The other principle that supports my decision in this area is the fact that I don't agree that some seniors who are in public housing right now will be grandfathered, whereas those who get in on April 1st will not be. As much as I would like to see a program that is streamlined and improved, I don't agree with a system where there are different treatments for the same categories of people. That is the point I have been raising throughout the session the last three weeks, so this is a logical step for me to follow.

I have also been privy to communications that are coming from other people in Yellowknife who may not be in my riding but cases of single mothers or people with disabilities or students getting student financial assistance, there are just too many details that have to be worked out. It's prudent on the part of the government to work the details out and be in a position to answer some of these legitimate questions. So for two or three principles, as a Member of this Assembly who has the responsibility of looking after her own constituency, but to look at what's in the interests of the Territories, I will be supporting this motion so we can work out the gaps. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this harmonization initiative I believe was undertaken with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, it began to encompass a lot of other different issues and got a little broader and it has became much more complicated now. As a regular Member, I found myself in a difficult situation. This will positively impact many of my constituents, it will negatively impact others. I think the harmonization initiative does need some more work. We did see some movement on the part of the government this week with the agreement to grandfather the seniors. So when you take the seniors out of the mix in Hay River, I still have a split between the people that it will help and those it will be difficult for. I think that the detail I am concerned about is more in how it's implemented. I believe in the philosophy. I believe in the concept, but how it's going to be implemented is still a concern to me.

I don't think it's right for us to absolve ourselves of responsibility by deferring it for an entire year. We just basically look like we are washing our hands of it for political reasons and I don't think that that shows very much leadership. So, Mr. Speaker, I am going to vote on this today to... I am not voting in favour of the motion to defer the harmonization initiative and I am going to hope that there is still an opportunity to look at some of these areas that are causing difficulty and to modify them, whether it's phase-ins or just cleaning it up, make it less onerous for certain individuals and for certain communities. I am hopeful that the government will look at some of those changes prior to implementation, but to defer it by a year and just wash our hands of it as a government I cannot support. Thank you.

To the motion. Mr. Kakfwi.

To the motion. Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say that I do respect the opinions of all colleagues across the hall because they are the ones who put me in this position to guide the significant changes over the last four years in reference to Housing.

I have tabled the document in the year 2000 called...(inaudible)...Profile. It also has a very large segment of the population in public housing. However, that did not stop me as a Member in this House to look at a number of educational approaches to help them make a transition away from public housing to private home ownership that would give them the freedom, the liberty to decide how they want to live. Harmonization has been a contentious issue. I am still of the belief that we have developed a fair process and, if I may, Mr. Speaker, speak as to some of the legal instruments we have developed here.

Certainly in the context of how we assess rents, how we have treated the clients and also how we have done rent calculations under the authority of the NWT Housing Act, we have been fair. We still need to look at how we have moved away from the social system. If I may speak to the economic instruments as well, I want to indicate to this House we have, on a pro forma basis, reduced the rent recoveries from $3.7 million to roughly $2.9 million. That indicates that we have made a concerted effort in that short time period to move people away, out of public housing into private home ownership. I believe our statistics indicate that strongly.

Mr. Speaker, in all fairness, we have given every community an allocation to deal with their housing situations. It's based on a needs analysis. We also have appropriated additional monies and developed an affordable housing strategy that addresses all housing issues, not just harmonization. Also, I have heard comments that concern me about the economics of each community and where we are going. Outside of Northern Stores, outside of co-ops, the NWT Housing Corporation through the local housing organizations, is a major employer in the small communities.

We have expended over $35 million on local housing organizations across the NWT. Yes, that shows that we have a social obligation. We have been meeting those social obligations. In reference to communication, Mr. Speaker, we have done our homework. I must say we have taken an educated approach, much like my colleagues across the floor. We have communicated wisely and extensively with the communities, the leadership and with the standing committees who endorsed our initiative in January 2001. We began in February 2002 and as recently as January we have also complied with the recommendations of the Financial Management Board that we complete the impact analysis and also a requirement of a transfer of funds.

So, Mr. Speaker, it's difficult as a Minister to continue to defend a process that my colleagues say is marred, and to hear innuendoes as well saying we haven't been doing our homework. Also, our social commitment has been wide. We understand there is a social housing agreement. That social housing agreement will have funding starting to decline in the year 2004 with a completion date of 2038. So we need to look at other options.

We have modified and adopted, reconciled other housing programs that would put people into home ownership. I need to make reference to the small non-taxed-based communities...adapted the mortgage assistance programs to those families who are in most need. Yes, every program we develop for this government is a subsidy program. Our intention is to help those clients who are severely impacted, which numbers only 110, move into alternative programs. I can assure the Members that harmonization is just one small piece of the equation. If we continue to support all the programs through subsidization, then it becomes certainly a very large concern, not only to ourselves as Ministers, but also it should be a concern to this Legislature and future ones.

Mr. Speaker, I certainly want to assure the Members that I, too, am sensitive to the needs of those who will be adversely impacted. I wanted to make a statement that we will work within the abilities of our programs to help those make that transition.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I have heard Members talking about the impacts and that there is a lack of information out there, but we also want to assure the tenants that we are going to give them a three-month transition period effective April 1st. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the motion. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate this opportunity to speak to this extremely important initiative that the government is undertaking. Mr. Speaker, this has been a long time in coming. This dates back to the previous Legislature. Mr. Speaker, a lot of work has been done in this area, a lot of communication work has been done in this area. We had intended to bring this forward a year ago. At the request of the Members we delayed that implementation to April 1st of this year. It gave us the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to refine the programs and to do even more work on it and more work was done. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, we have had consultations with the standing committees on several occasions and a lot of questions were asked during those particular standing committee briefings with the social envelope committee. Mr. Speaker, I have to point out that in February, they issued a report. They reported to us that Members were pleased that this oft-delayed initiative is being implemented and believe the new system provides for the equitable treatment of all residents of social housing. They complement both our departments, Mr. Speaker, for our efforts in ensuring the development of equitable programs.

So, Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of work done in this area. The Housing Corporation has done a lot of work on their part to communicate with LHOs in turn with those people who are affected. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of groups that are affected by this, seniors, students, low income families and income support clients. Income support clients will not be affected adversely by this, Mr. Speaker. Low income families are the ones that benefit. Eighty percent of the low income families will benefit from this, Mr. Speaker, because they will see a reduction in their rent. It is designed for that. Students will see a change, Mr. Speaker, a change for the better. The intent of the program was to create equity and treat everyone in the same manner, Mr. Speaker, and to correct inconsistencies that are there between our department and the Housing Corporation in how we assess people for benefits. That is important. It's extremely important to address that. We've taken the initiative to do that.

There was confusion before. There were inconsistencies and inequities. We wanted to correct that, Mr. Speaker. What is the impact for the people out there? Mr. Speaker, a lot of people are going to benefit from this as well and we cannot afford to delay. We can't afford to delay this, Mr. Speaker, because a lot of people who are going to benefit from this will not see those benefits if we delay the program and that is important too. We are listening to what the Members are saying and we will be sensitive to the needs of other people, but we do believe in what we have designed. We believe it is correct and we believe it is important for us to proceed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the motion. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to thank all my colleagues for making their comments on this issue. This issue has been very hotly disputed behind closed doors. Everyone is taking positions. I am glad everyone has come out to put their positions on the table for everybody to see. We entered this motion onto the floor expecting Cabinet to abstain on this issue. It's really not even worth voting on it now because the numbers are not there anymore. Cabinet has changed their position. It's not surprising, Mr. Speaker. This has been the attitude with this government on small communities. One Member stands up for the larger centre, Cabinet changes their position.

Mr. Speaker, it's not what's good for one riding. Many people are looking at it from that standpoint. People want us to believe what's good for Yellowknife and what's good for Hay River is good for all. That's not true. We have different standards. This document is not complete. We have been asking for information. We are saying fix it before we put it on the table. Some people want to go ahead with a broken down vehicle that's not going to work. That's not going to serve my riding and it's not going to serve a lot of communities in the North.

Mr. Speaker, I think we demonstrated and everybody stated that we lost the intent of this initiative. The intent was to harmonize income support with housing, but we've throw a lot of different things here into the mix. We have to take a look at it again. Many seniors are contacting a number of us here in this House. Was he concerned that this government is changing its attitudes towards how they are treating seniors? They are concerned that next will be the fuel subsidy. Aboriginal people are contacting us and saying what about our rights, what about our treaty rights? We are choosing to ignore that. That really concerns me.

I can't agree that we have to forge ahead regardless. We don't know what the outcomes of this are going to be. We don't know what the fallout of this initiative is going to be. We should know that before we go ahead. We try to do that with every other initiative and that's all we are asking for in this case. Be fair. Let us take the time and defer it for a year, so that housing and income support Ministers can do their due diligence on this and fix it so they can bring it back, not just put it on the table because Cabinet put that position on the table and we can't change our mind. That's not fair. That's not consensus government. We need to have a free vote. If we want to abstain, then we need a free vote. Let every Minister on the other side show to their constituents what their position is. It's not fair to tie their hands, not on this initiative.

Mr. Speaker, all I can do is ask my colleagues to support this initiative. Let's take it back, let's fix it and bring it back to the table. I am going to ask, Mr. Speaker, that we have a recorded vote on this issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Member has requested a recorded vote. All those in favour, please stand.

Recorded Vote

All those opposed, please stand.

All those abstaining? All those for, six; against, 11; abstentions, zero. The motion is defeated.

---Defeated

Item 16, motions. Mr. Lafferty.

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 14, notices of motion. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You have unanimous consent, Mr. Lafferty.

Item 15, notices of motion. Colleagues, at this time, I would like to recognize a visitor in the gallery, Mr. Clayton Gordon in the gallery, who is with APTN. Welcome to the House, Clayton.

---Applause

Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput, that Bill 12, Nursing Profession Act, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The motion is in order. To the motion.