Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to dive a little further into this question, is there a chargeback function; for example, if Aurora College wants a new facility in whatever community, it doesn't really matter, but if they want a new facility is there a chargeback function, for example, the design, some of the planning, maybe even the management is pointed out earlier? If there is a chargeback function, how does it work? Do we charge it as a market rate function, et cetera? On the last part, is there any obligation of the departments to use Public Works in that regard, in regard to chargeback for services or can they just pick whom they wish? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The only two areas we would have a chargeback are accounted for in our budget, and that would be the petroleum products revolving fund as well as the systems and communications. The project management end, we don't charge departments for that service. That is a cost that the department eats. So we don't have a setup or an arrangement of that nature. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I can appreciate the generosity of Public Works not having a chargeback function, but I find it strange that other departments don't have to account for that in any way. Is there any reason why we don't have a chargeback function, citing my example earlier if Aurora College wanted a new facility or project done? Is the Minister able to enlighten us either if he happens to be wearing his FMBS cap at this moment along with his Public Works cap? I am searching for a little information on why we

don't do that, if the Minister can enlighten me on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. At one time we were much more involved in a lot of the areas with other departments. Again, as stated, user pay/user saves. There were a lot of areas that were returned to departments and they could choose how to do it. This is one area where there is a fair bit of technical expertise developed, and it was felt that it would remain in house in one department instead of splitting it up, and departments not having the ability and the resources to go to sort of a multi-faceted team that has experience in a number of different kinds of facilities. So the technical expertise was kept in one department and that is the way we have continued to operate on that end. If we looked at going down the other road, the potential is that there could be some higher costs in those areas, as we have seen with some of the other initiatives where each department goes to try to hire its own technical expertise or develop its own systems as well in that area.

I guess one of the other areas I should point out is as the department is involved in helping this process along, there are charges that departments would pay, but that is when the actual contracts are for actual design of a facility. There are those dollars that go to the architects that we would contract with and they would supply actual final drawings. Then contractors that would build a facility could take the drawings and do estimates on providing the level of work it would take, if it be electrical people and plumbers, concrete people or steel people, that would all come from those drawings. So they would end up paying and part of the project would pay for some of those costs. But Public Works and Services is in the front end of planning and preparation, getting the rough estimates, I believe it is close to a class C estimate, and then it goes on from there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will further vouch for the simplicity rather than paying from one treasury into another treasury door. So I can recognize the simplicity of not charging back. The last area that I want to probe and get a little more clarification, I had mentioned earlier and it probably got lost in my questions, which is the role and the obligation of other departments. Is there an obligation, for example, that any other department must consult with the Department of Public Works, recognizing the expertise and the role that the Department of Public Works plays? Is there any role, function, mandate, policy that basically says check box A, must go to Department of Public Works, and if busy then we proceed at our own choice? Is there a policy, because if we have amalgamated all of this technical expertise, which I could probably speak for personally, but is there a role, policy, obligation, anything in that nature thereof? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess it depends on what level you want to go down to because you get down to the level of contract regulations where there is some direction for the involvement of Public Works and Services, but departments, through the changes in systems they have had the opportunity and can go to their own sources if they want to. For projects themselves in the capital area they've been consistent in coming back to us, because, again, we have that expertise level within the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

No further questions at this time.

Thank you. Any further general comments? If not, we will proceed with the detail and the estimates. If I could have you please turn to page 5-9 in your main estimates books please. Operations expense, total operations expense, $44.639 million. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a breakdown for other expenses.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get detail as to what page we are working from? Is it from the actual full department, or is it from the directorate that you are looking for that detail? Thank you.

Oh, good point, Mr. Roland. We should be on page 5-9. I called page 5-7, which was wrong, so we are going to stand down that page 5-7, and go to page 5-9, directorate, operations expense, total operations expense, $7.763 million. Now, Mr. Menicoche, would you like to question the other expenses under that amount?

Madam Chair, yes.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The other expenses for the directorate, travel and transportation, $142,000; materials and supplies, $201,000; purchased services, $217,000; contract services, $256,000; fees and payments, $36,000; other expenses, $1.034 million; computer hardware and software, $37,000; totalling $1.923 million. I should note that the other expenses category is for the systems communications and TSC chargeback agreements. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Operations expense, total operations expense, $7.763 million.

Agreed. Thank you. Asset management, operations expense, total operations expense, $35.316 million.