Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate getting the breakdown provided to all the Members.

My next question has to do with the travel budget. The point I need to make is the fact that there is quite a fluctuation in the travel budget under other expenses. First of all, the other expenses constitutes $232,000 out of $618,000, and that's for three people. Last year the travel budget was budgeted for $36,000, but they actually spent $98,000. That's $62,000 more than what was budgeted last year. I guess there's a lot of reward to overspending, because this year's main estimate is exactly what they overspent; the final number of what they spent, regardless of the previous year's budget. That's just one interpretation, and I'm hoping that the Minister has a better interpretation.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, like I stated, one of the requests that we received from a lot of Members was to go into the communities to deal with housing issues. We went to the

majority of the communities over the last summer months. I, as the Minister, have taken the Members with me into the ridings so we could have meetings with the public on the housing issues. We also hear about housing concerns here in the House, and I think it's just as loud in our communities. I think because of that, we've made an extra emphasis on making sure we get into as many communities as we can so that we can deal with these housing issues with the people in the communities to try to resolve some of these issues. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

I have to tell you it's easy enough, I guess, for us to say the people want to see us and we need to travel. I think there is an argument to be made there. But at the same time, this is almost $100,000, and $100,000 will almost get you a mobile home in one of these communities. If you do that kind of travel for many, many years, I don't know if people would rather see you or have five more mobile homes in their communities. We can sit here and approve $60,000 or a $100,000 travel budget; $100,000 is a lot of money. Most people don't see that kind of money in their bank account in their lifetime. I don't think I'm ever going to see that kind of money in my bank account.

I think there is a huge concern on the part of the Members about the travel budget and accounting for it. It's a three-member executive. Further to the Minister's question, could I ask what portion of that was spent by the Minister and accompanying MLAs and what portion was the staff?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, about 30 percent covers the cost of myself and other Members of the Legislature for travelling on business on behalf of the Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Could I get a breakdown of that in the same communication that the Minister had committed to earlier? I also have a question about the contract services. Last year contract services were budgeted for $11,000. The actual expenditure was $125,000. Once again, the Housing Corporation, I understand, has a different way of accounting, because out of all the other departments it's a very strange kind of accounting system, I must tell you. They really go by main estimates and they spend as they need it and then they account for it at the end of the year. Obviously this has been budgeted for what they spent last year instead of what was budgeted last year and there's a difference of $114,000. I think the Minister of Finance should revisit that and we make a reference to that in Social Programs committee's book. I'm not saying there's anybody doing anything untoward. It's just that it's a really difficult way for the Members to be approving a budget that almost means nothing because we vote to approve one number and then the corporation has the right to spend as they need it and come back and account for it. I think there has to be a better way to keep accounting. Having said that, I'd like to ask the Minister what is contained in that contract services for $125,000. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned, Arctic Energy Alliance $50,000; GNWT corporate review transitional services, $70,000; and social envelope to cover a salary to one of the non-government organizations here in Yellowknife for $14,000; and, the Homeless Coalition for $5,000.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have further questions other than to reiterate that I would like to get correspondence from the Minister on the breakdown of the compensation for the three PYs, as well as a breakdown of the travel budget for last year. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to point out that the actual costs of the 2003-04 were higher than what we're budgeting for this year. The expenditure was $109,000; we're asking for $98,000, so it has gone down. Also, with regard to the audited statement that we do, we do have to basically do two audits. Right now we must, for this government, have an audit by the Auditor General as well as to do an audit of the dollars we get from CMHC. So that's why the auditing system is different than other organizations, because we have to audit to two organizations; once to the GNWT, and to the CMHC for the program dollars we get from them. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was going to make that last statement my last statement, but I have to tell you I don't think going from $109,000...but then, why, if the actual expenditure for travel for 2003-04 was $109,000, why in the world would they budget it for $36,000 next year? What is the meaning of that if they were going to spend $98,000 anyway? The Minister is asking me to give him a pat on the back because they went from $109,000 to $98,000? I just wanted a commitment. I thought I was being nice. I wasn't even asking to put this on the record. I could ask for that right now. I was giving him a break. Give us a letter and we'll go ahead with that. He's trying to argue with me that going from $109,000 to $98,000 was a good move? I wasn't asking about...and to say that because they're being audited by two parties that this is how they...So it's almost meaningless what you put down as an estimate as opposed to what you spend? Is this what the officials are telling him in his ear and he's just repeating what the officials are saying and not listening to what he's saying himself? I think he and the officials should check the Hansard tomorrow and really think about what they're saying because, I tell you, in terms of accounting for public funds, this makes absolutely no sense and I'm putting the Minister of Finance on notice that he better go and look at the budget of the Housing Corporation. Because I'm telling you, as the Social Programs committee I'm sure there is an explanation for this, I'm not saying anybody's doing anything wrong, but whatever they're doing is not making any sense.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko, did you care to comment on that?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess everybody here knows that an annual report is reported to this House every year, which is done by the Auditor General in regard to the expenses of this corporation. That's all I was trying to say. I mean, if you want, the report is tabled in this House. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I have Mr. Yakeleya next.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, last year the people in my region complained quite loudly to me in terms of not seeing enough of the Ministers in our region. I know I'm going to be different from my colleague here, but one of the biggest complaints was in not seeing enough Ministers, especially the Housing Corporation Minister, Health and Social Services Minister and other Ministers in our region. They see you once every four years and that's it, they said. They want to see you more often. I know travel is expensive up in the Northwest Territories and the Sahtu region, but they want to see the representatives in face-to-face discussions. The chief from Deline said no more letter writing. Let's have face-to-face discussions to talk about the issues.

---Applause

He doesn't have much faith in the letter-writing process. They want that and they get results. So I think the budget should be as it is here. You have to come to the region to see the people. Up in the Sahtu region, where there are no highways, you can't drive there every weekend, except for three months -- Mr. Handley knows that -- and there are no goats on the roads today because all the oil and gas activity scared them off.

Mr. Chairman, these Ministers need to come into our communities in our regions and see our people. They have to talk to them face to face about the housing issues and other issues. So, if anything, I think this budget should go up.

That's what the people want. Maybe it's different in other regions, but that's what we want in our region. So I want to say that to include social housing in there. I think it's about high time that the Ministers started coming to our communities and to our people in the regions. Get out of Yellowknife and go into those regions and see the people. The cost is high. You know what kind of living conditions we're in. Instead of just reading reports, go talk face to face with people in 43 below and their houses are broken up and frozen and that. Talk to them. See how they like living in those kinds of conditions.

For me, this is what needs to happen. That's what good government is about. You have to look at the other side of the equation, Mr. Chairman. I'm passionate just because I've seen enough houses in Fort Good Hope, Colville Lake, Tulita, Deline and we need housing in there. Social housing, repairs maintenance program. We hear it day after day when we go in those communities. Those old people come and talk to you. How did they survive over the winter in cold weather with frozen pipes? Welcome to the program.

They want to see the officials there; the top dogs in the Housing Corporation. The top dogs. It's a crying shame you don't come often enough to the region. Make sure they don't cut the budget for travelling to come to the region. It may be different elsewhere, but for us, gee whiz. That's just a comment that I wanted to make, Mr. Chairman, that I think enough is enough here.

---Applause

Thank you. Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. It was a comment. That's good. I have Ms. Lee next. Ms. Lee.