Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

1. How were the maximum annual fuel amounts for the various types of fuel arrived at and how do they compare to the actual amounts needed to heat homes, in particular older homes which are not as heat efficient as the newer homes?
2. How were the income thresholds for the subsidy arrived at, have they been updated to keep up with the cost of living, and how do they compare with the seniors' actual incomes?
3. With respect to the income thresholds, what is the rationale for taking away 25 percent of this subsidy for approximately each additional $250 worth of income; is $250 typically enough to cover the cost of 25 percent of the maximum fuel amounts?

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Written questions. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Ms. Lee.

---Applause

Written questions. Returns to written questions. Replies to opening address. Petitions. Reports of standing and special committees. Reports of committees on the review of bills. Tabling of documents. Notices of motion. Notices of motion for first reading of bills. Motions. First reading of bills. Second reading of bills. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 6, Bill 7, Bill 11, Bill 14, with Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

Committee, I'd like to call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of the committee today? Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. The committee wishes to consider Bill 14, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly Executive Council Act, No. 2.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Is the committee agreed?

Agreed. Thank you. We'll proceed with that after a short break.

---SHORT BREAK

Okay, committee, I'd like to call us back to order, please. We have before us now in Committee of the Whole Bill 14, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, No. 2. I would like to call on Mr. Pokiak, who is the Member sponsoring this bill, to proceed with opening comments, please. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am pleased to provide opening comments for Bill 14 on behalf of the Legislative Assembly Board of Management. Bill 14 will amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council to revise the electoral districts of the Northwest Territories. The bill proposes changes to the electoral boundaries in the communities of Hay River, Inuvik and Yellowknife, while maintain the status quo in the remaining eight constituencies. Bill 14 does not propose any increase to the number of MLAs in the Legislative Assembly.

Madam Chair, on May 30th, 2006, the report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, 2006, was tabled in this House. On behalf of the Board of Management and, indeed, all Members, I would like to thank the commission, consisting of the Hon. Justice John Vertes, Mr. Eddie Erasmus of Behchoko, and Mr. Rod O'Brien of Hay River, for its hard work and thoughtful recommendations.

Once the commission's report was tabled, the Legislative Assembly Board of Management and all Members individually spent considerable time analyzing its recommendations. The board consulted with MLAs individually and the Caucus and came away with one dominate message, that now is not the time to expand the size of our Legislature.

In a time when spending on programs and infrastructure is under significant restraint, Members were of the view that increasing the size of the Legislature by two Members, at an annual cost of up to $900,000 per year, was not the responsible thing to do.

Bill 14 implements the commission's recommendations with respect to the rebalancing of the electoral boundaries in Inuvik and Hay River. These recommendations make good sense and do not result in the addition of any seats in the Legislative Assembly.

Madam Chair, Bill 14 does not create an additional seat in the Assembly for Yellowknife, as recommended by the commission, nor does it create a stand-alone seat for the community of Behchoko. The changes recommended for Yellowknife strike a more appropriate balance in the size of the existing seven Yellowknife constituencies such that if none is greater than 25 percent of the average constituency size in the Northwest Territories. The constituency of Monfwi would maintain its current boundaries, make it one of the largest constituencies, although still below the 25 percent guideline established by the Northwest Territories Supreme Court.

Madam Chair, Bill 14 strikes an important balance. It addresses the important and sensitive issue of voter parity without increasing the size of the Legislature. The time is surely coming when additional seats will have to be added to ensure relative equality of representation of electoral boundaries. Bill 14 offers an effective and balanced interim measure. Thank you, Madam Chair. That concludes my opening comments.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. At this time, Mr. Pokiak, I would ask you if you would like to take the witness table.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. I understand you don't have any witnesses so, with that then, I will ask Members if there are any general comments. Okay, to the detail then. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, would like to thank Justice John Vertes, Mr. Eddie Erasmus and Mr. Rod O'Brien for their work on this report. We can see, from reading it, that they travelled across the Northwest Territories to give voters a chance to have their say in the structure of this, the Legislative Assembly, this political institution. I agree that it's necessary for the commission to give the public an opportunity to be heard. I know it's challenging to come up with unanimous recommendations, given the competing positions advanced by members of the public, so I think it's important to note that the members of this commission were unanimous in their recommendations.

As they outlined in the report, they heard about the unique nature of the Northwest Territories with its diversity, its different cultures and its regional interests. They also took note of the various criteria set out in the act that they have to keep in mind, which includes things like geographic factors, including the accessibility size or shape of any area, community boundaries, facilities for and patterns of transportation. So it wasn't just the population that they looked at.

But, Madam Chair, the report also points out that equality of voting power is still the most important factor to be considered in setting electoral boundaries for public government. I think it's important that we remember that the commission is independent of the Legislative Assembly and government, and is consultative only. The commission notes in their report that it's up to this Assembly to decide which, if any, of the recommendations that should be accepted.

But having done that, they remind us of section 3 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which says that everybody has a right to vote, and they talk about what that means and how that's been clearly established in various court decisions across Canada. Madam Chair, I accept that it's impossible to achieve absolute voter parity in the Northwest Territories, given all the factors that must be considered, and I also accept that Yellowknife voters have much easier access to their MLAs than do most voters in the Northwest Territories.

The other point that the commission report makes is that the weight of Yellowknife voters right now is likely adequate, given the availability of Yellowknife MLAs to their constituents. I have to say that most of the advice that I've received at my constituency meetings, in conversation or by e-mail agree with what the commission heard from the majority of presenters in Yellowknife, and that is that we don't need more than 19 seats in the NWT Legislative Assembly. I know that I certainly heard from constituents who said that they also were not prepared to see any reduction in voting weight. So if a new constituency is to be added outside of Yellowknife, then there must be one within Yellowknife.

Madam Chair, we also heard that the commission had its strongest presentation for an additional riding in Monfwi, and my colleague Mr. Lafferty has very eloquently pressed the case for an additional seat with me. I understand that he's under some pressure from his constituents and the leadership in that region to push for another seat. I think what this had done in part, Madam Chair, because I recognize, as do my constituents, the

cost of adding seats in the Legislative Assembly is that in hindsight I think we should have given the commission one more guideline. I think we should have asked the commission to make recommendations for us that would keep the seats at 19, while perhaps taking into account those requests like we're hearing from areas like Monfwi, and looking at areas where we have overrepresentation right now in our constituencies. I would certainly suggest that a guideline like that be considered for the next commission and, if not, we'll soon be well over 24 Members in the not-too-distant future.

Madam Chair, since we didn't do that and in order to accommodate the very strong wishes of the residents of Monfwi, personally, I support the recommendations of the commission, and I would say that we tasked the commission to listen to people across the Northwest Territories. I point out that the majority of the members on that commission come from outside Yellowknife, and again say that their recommendations are unanimous. So because of that, I am prepared to support the recommendations of the commission for adding two seats.

I must say, though, that one thing I can't support from the recommendation is the name that they proposed for the new constituency of Pud Lake. I think that may be, or may have been in the past, a tailings pond and I'm not certain that it would be appropriate to name a constituency that. So if we are considering amendments that would see another constituency in Yellowknife, I will be proposing a different name than Pud Lake for it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments. Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The issue of recommendations by the Electoral Boundaries Commission brought me back to if we had two extra seats added to the Assembly it was going to be a dominoes affect down the Mackenzie Valley. I strongly support the status quo of 19 Members. The amount of money that's going to be taken out of certain programs within this government is going to have an affect on our programs in the smaller communities. Adding more seats to the House will add more costs. It has an effect on the Cabinet and on the Assembly as a whole.

Madam Chair, the people in the Northwest Territories, especially over the last couple of weeks, think adding a couple more Members to the House would be somewhat questionable. The funding that's going to be required to increase the size of this House is astronomical, especially in light of the programs. The requests that we're asking Cabinet to provide for our communities is going to very, very short listed and limited. I cannot support that and I will not support that. We need to rethink this and think this for the next Assembly maybe.

Madam Chair, I like providing equal representation of some of the boundaries in some of the larger centres. I spoke to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. When you look at my region, you're looking at about a little over 280,000 square kilometres of territory that I cover. For me to fly into each of those communities, meet with each of the leaders -- and there's about three to six or seven leaders that I meet with on different issues -- the Metis, the band, the land corps, education, the chiefs, the mayors and other regional groups, and that's for almost for each community in my region. Usually it takes about $8,000 to do a two-day tour in my region.

So when we look at electoral boundaries and we look at the work, I think our communities are somewhat left out in terms of how we represent our people in the smaller communities. We have different jurisdictions every time we meet in a different community, as opposed to meeting in the larger centres like Yellowknife, Hay River and Inuvik or in Fort Smith. The chief maybe, mayor; that's it. But we in the small communities meet with different leaders, different cultures, different dialects. Even in Deline last year I was told that there were 33 different agencies in just the community of Deline. So when we look at equal representation and representing our people, in the small communities I represent we are truly left out. But I think we all do a good job in representing our people and I'd like to stay with the status quo of 19 and not add another budget item and increase our budget to have two more Members come, otherwise I would have to consider adding a Member to the Sahtu and I do not want to do that right now.

So, Madam Chair, I'd like to stay with the 19, re-jig the boundaries. As it said in here, as Mr. Pokiak has said, it makes good, common sense for this legislation to stay where we are and we thankful for the Electoral Boundaries Commission for the hard work they have done. We listen to people and the Sahtu region will not support two additional Members for the House. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. For general comments I have Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I, as well, support the bill as brought forward with the boundaries of existing jurisdictions, constituencies, in Yellowknife, Hay River, Inuvik adjusted which keeps every constituency under the 25 percent as required by the court ruling.

Madam Chair, the issue comes up repeatedly and the political discussion, as Minister Dent indicated, that we have to have, that we chose not to have when we started this process because I recollect it was raised by myself and maybe one other, is it's going to be up to us politically as a Legislature to set the ceiling of what we consider adequate government and have a boundaries commission operate within that basic parameter. Otherwise, I, as well, have the same concern and we have seen it ratchet up since division. But the easiest way out is you just keep adding more and more seats, you have MLAs tripping over themselves. We are the most over-governed jurisdiction, when you look at all the levels of government that we have; federal, territorial, municipal and all the other organizations that are there. There is a significant cost and I believe that we are well suited to do the business of this House with the membership that we currently have. I agree, as well, that this can be seen as an interim measure and the Legislature of the 16th Assembly will hopefully look at the debate and put it on this table and recognize that one of the challenges they have to do when they set out the terms of reference is have the political discussion ahead of time about the future of the Northwest Territories, and what do we need to provide good government when it comes to MLAs. I know there is a concern that large centres, some communities have the numbers but a small geographic area. Some regions or constituencies have a large

geographic area and relatively small numbers comparatively speaking. Our focus is, and has been, mainly on the numbers, not on the effect of the geography, which is a challenge in itself when you look at the federal constituencies where I believe Nunavut and the Northwest Territories are the two largest jurisdictions in the country with over one million and a half or so square kilometres each and one MLA to cover that whole vast territory, but a relatively small number of people. It's an issue that we have to look at as well next time.

But for this particular exercise, I fully support keeping it the same, adjusted within the 19. For my constituents, it is very clear that we don't need any more government. But if we have an extra half million dollars a seat or whatever it is, then let's put that half million dollars into the base somewhere to do fuel rebates, to do wood stove programs, promote energy efficiency, more nurses, more doctors, more teachers, language programs, and the list could go on; chipsealing Highway No. 5.

---Laughter

So if there's any concern about finding the money, then I think we could all find ways to put that money to better use than adding more MLAs just because the court says and we want to see if there's a Legislature, just keep ratcheting up the number of MLAs in shrinking constituencies. Our job is to make the tough decision. We didn't do it at the front end. We have a chance to hold the line here and hopefully set it up to do it the next time. But I would suggest to you it would not be responsible for us to add to the cost of government that is already very, very high, so I fully support this Bill 14 as it's laid out. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next on the list I have Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Along with myself, I think there were five MLAs altogether who made presentations to Justice Vertes and the other two members of the Electoral Boundaries Commission earlier this year. Madam Chair, there were two points that I put to the commission at the time. The first one was that, indeed, there was no need to grow the size of the Assembly. The 19 Members provided for in the NWT Assembly were enough to do the work, perform the tasks that we're required to do, and so that maintaining the 19 was, at least from the point of view of the capacity and the number of MLAs required was adequate.

The other request was to look at within the existing ridings to shave the peaks, if you will, and fill the valleys where we could do some adjustments with our ridings, especially in Yellowknife and then, of course, in Hay River and Inuvik, Madam Chair, to bring some more consistency to all our ridings and in effect do some housekeeping in that respect. I think that through the bill as presented, the second part of my request was indeed fulfilled, Madam Chair.

But to the first part of it, the size, the growth of the Legislative Assembly, this is where I put considerable weight, a considerable emphasis, Madam Chair, in the assignment that we gave to the boundaries commission to go out there and listen to the constituencies, listen to our people, and come back with their best recommendations on how our territory is changing, how our demographics are changing, where the populations are potentially shifting to, where they are going to shift. This is what the commission did. They came back with a recommendation for the expansion of two ridings. Given the report they came back with, Madam Chair, and in the process of that, the signals that we received from the community of Behchoko that they strongly felt they deserved and, indeed, were sort of at the threshold of warranting a new riding, that this made sense. I also know, Madam Chair, that from the point of view of my community of Yellowknife, that there would be an offsetting desire to create some parity here and look for an additional seat in Yellowknife.

Madam Chair, a reality is that Yellowknife now has I believe somewhere in the neighbourhood of 47 or 48 percent of the population in the Northwest Territories, but here in the Legislative Assembly about 37 or 38 percent of the voting weight. That is, I believe, an allowable discrepancy, but I know that there are people in the community, and I will say I'm one of them, that I do not want to see that level of representation, comparative representation, eroded, Madam Chair. I think on that basis that establishing another seat for Yellowknife is a way of maintaining the parity, or at least the perception of parity, in our relative populations.

So in that respect then, Madam Chair, as I did in my newsletter in June, I have endorsed the recommendation of the boundaries commission and I favour that position on the floor of the Assembly today.

Madam Chair, I think it's important to consider that in making this kind of decision, one of the MLAs, of course through the Electoral Boundaries Act, have taken the work of the boundaries commission as a recommendation. We have the final say, at least in terms of the act and our own decision-making capacity. But, Madam Chair, I do want to keep in mind that we aren't the only ones who have a say in how representation should be determined. Regular citizens, Madam Chair, quite rightly have the opportunity if they feel that their representation is not fair and balanced with those of others in the Northwest Territories, they can take their grievance to a court and have it heard.

Madam Chair, eight years ago that is indeed what happened to this Assembly, and there was quite an unexpected outcome I think to what the legislators-of-the-day thought would be the case when they decided to ignore or decline the recommendation of the boundaries commission in 1999, or was it 1998, Madam Chair. This is especially an area of concern to me, Madam Chair, that I think in seeking the support of the recommendations of the boundaries commission, we are supporting the people of Behchoko, we are supporting the people of Yellowknife, we are avoiding, I believe, the potential for this issue going yet again into the courts, and potentially for the Legislative Assembly to let go something that we should indeed have responsibility for and take the steps, indeed, to represent our citizens as equitably and fairly as we can. So in that respect, Madam Chair, it's perhaps fitting that the voter, the constituent in this case can and does and may have the last word in this issue, and that is why I support the boundaries commission and the creation of two more ridings, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Next on the list I have Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair...(English not provided)

Madam Chair, I'd just like to highlight what I've said in my own language, that with the report that came out in May and also just with the recent report from Mr. Pokiak, that there was a statement there that came away with one dominant message. Madam Chair, not all Members agreed at that time in the Lutselk'e meeting that there was one voice. Some Members disagreed with what took part there. So I would just like to highlight that as a clarification and the number of change from the recommendation itself as well. There was $600,000 and now it's $900,000.

Anyways, I'd like to touch on the Monfwi and Behchoko riding that we've been highlighting for quite some time now. This past spring, Madam Chair, the Electoral Boundaries Commission recommended that the current riding of Monfwi be divided in two ridings, Behchoko and Monfwi, which include Edzo, Whati, Gameti and Wekweeti. Behchoko will be a standalone. This commission made the recommendation based on the list of 12 criteria stipulated by the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act and I will touch on some of them.

Madam Chair, the community boundaries established on the lands, resources, self-government agreements, including land claims and treaty land entitlement agreements. Two, demographic factors, including the scarcity, density or related growth of population of any area. Three, patterns of transportation, the communication within and between the different areas. Four, language, cultural and other special community and diversity of interests of the residents of Northwest Territories. Madam Chair, the population of Monfwi puts it at plus 25 percent of average variation, a recommendation that came out of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, meaning that it is significantly under-represented. Behchoko has steadily increased in population over the past 10 years, Madam Chair. It is the largest aboriginal community in the Northwest Territories.

Madam Chair, Hay River, Inuvik and Dehcho all have two seats. Monfwi has the same or greater population. This precedent has already been set in this House. It only makes sense for Monfwi to have two seats as well. Madam Chair, it makes sense to divide Monfwi riding as recommended. Behchoko is on the highway system and has reasonable access to goods and services offered in Yellowknife. The outlying communities are accessible only by air or ice roads and, therefore, have limited access to these services. The concerns of each type of communities are different from each region. To ensure a fair and equitable representation to outlying communities, again it only makes sense to have our own riding, recognizing their uniqueness, demographic factors and the needs arising from these, Madam Chair.

The creation of the Tlicho Government has meant increased demands upon the MLA as a conduit between that level of government and territorial government demands another MLA in this region or NWT has yet to be faced. Because of the uniqueness in governance, Tlicho members living in Yellowknife who are recognized as a member of Tlicho by birthright, not because of where they chose to live, often call upon myself for assistance, Madam Chair. These Tlicho members often have concerns tied to their original communities. They should be considered part of the decision, but they are not, Madam Chair. The Tlicho people pride themselves on the fact that we are the largest aboriginal group in the Northwest Territories. We have worked hard to maintain our language and cultural traditions. This makes us unique from Yellowknife or other larger centres.

Some would recommend that we should keep the status quo. Madam Chair, if status quo means my region is significantly under-represented, status quo means outlying communities remain unrepresented and neglected. If I would argue with a stronger voice, smaller communities would have voted out, as an example, the $40 million courthouse for YK or other major projects in larger centres that I've encountered in the past. Instead, that money would have gone to the region as where our priority lies. How often do we have to be outvoted before we figure out that status quo only serves to keep our smaller communities marginalized and silenced, Madam Chair?

Dividing Monfwi into two ridings does not only benefit the Tlicho, it would serve the betterment of all small communities in the Northwest Territories. Madam Chair, if it takes my support for the Electoral Boundaries Commission's recommendation, then I will support it in order to get a seat for the Monfwi riding.

Madam Chair, I've had a teleconference today with my leadership just prior to noon and they're watching us and they're waiting patiently of the outcome of this session. Mahsi Cho.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Next I have Mr. Bell.