Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Braden.

You know, Mr. Chairman, I think the town of Fort Simpson really deserves better, much, much better from this government in terms of assessing what we know is a vital piece of infrastructure for this community as well as for our government. The Minister has told us some of the history of trying to get a solution and get resolve on a plan that would suit everybody, and he hasn't been able to do so. The issue for me is the amount of time that the future and the issues regarding this building have been in play. I guess that's the question I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, or start asking, is just how many years has the future of the Deh Cho Hall been in question and how is it that now we are faced essentially with an ultimatum that the fire marshal has called on and now we have to look at this situation almost in desperation? How long has this been in play, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This facility has been discussed, plans have been devised and discussed with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment with the community for quite a few years. As I stated earlier, the fire marshal's office became involved in 2002. I can say that the departments have bent over backwards trying to accommodate the community. Public Works has revised a number of options, gone back to the drawing board a number of times trying to satisfy the client departments as well as community requests and concerns. We have now come to a stage where we have run out of options with the fire marshal's office and a minimum code upgrade is required. We have done that estimate. Even if we were to, for example, look at portable units, the timeline of getting those units built from a factory somewhere in Canada, shipped up to the community, built or put in place, even for temporary means, even if it's a year or two until a new facility can be built, we are still looking at a substantive amount of dollars.

So looking at the facility and what options are available, the decision now to replace the facility, we are going to need a minimum of two to four years to get a new facility in place. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

The timeline we are looking at here, $3.5 million to get an extra four years of life...I'm sorry?

---Interjection

Two to four years, thank you. Two to four years' life out of this building and even then we are looking at shutting it down. Mr. Chairman, this pushes the notion of value for money way out there into the stratosphere. It's almost extraordinary that the department would bring such a scenario to the floor of the Assembly and ask for approval of it. If we do the math on this, as the Minister has already advised us on some previous projects, we are looking at an annual increase in the capital construction costs in the Northwest Territories of at least 10 percent per year. So we take something we know would cost us $19 million now, it's going to increase by about $2 million a year for every year that we don't do something about it. So even if we go the four-year window here, we're talking about adding somewhere in the neighbourhood of nine to $10 million by the time you compound it. We're looking at a $30 million building in four years that today would cost 19. I don't want to deny the people in Fort Simpson this kind of facility, but, Mr. Chairman, to ask us to approve this money and then still have nothing on a go-forward basis is astonishing.

Mrs. Groenewegen asked a very good question right upfront: what kind of options has the government looked at? Where are the private sector partners or in fact the aboriginal partners? The Dehcho aboriginal government has, by very skilful negotiating, managed to tap some fairly significant federal dollars. Are they interested, for instance, in making an investment in their own region, in their own infrastructure, just as one example of a potential partnership that's out there to help to do this? What I'm getting at, Mr. Chairman, is thinking outside the box, getting creative and involving the whole community, if not the whole region, into some answers. I cannot support this appropriation based on what we know, Mr. Chairman.

So that's the question that I would give back to the Minister is what other options, or is the Minister ready to go back to the region and back to the communities and give them the same ultimatum that he's presenting to the Assembly here and say what can we do to come up with a good solution that's going to suit everybody's needs and have some long-term use for it and some value for taxpayers' money, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I stated earlier, there have been numerous options looked at and reviewed, presented to the department for decision and working with the community. The community wanted for quite some time to keep the facility and have it renovated. When we looked at those options for renovation and the value for money, it was felt that the best investment is for a new facility. That decision was made. Unfortunately from the timeline the initial discussion started to where we are now, we have been burning the candle at both ends, so to speak, and are now in a position where to proceed we need to have some space so that it'll carry us to the next stage. If we do, which the government will have to look at is, again, as I stated earlier, the capital plan that we have is fully subscribed to. There is little to no room for additional capital programs. So as a government we're going to have to look back to the situation of leasing instead of owning some of our own facilities. The new facility, who would be housed in the new facility would be the Dehcho Divisional Education Council, the Education, Culture and Employment regional office, Aurora College program delivery and administration -- so that's the learning centre as well -- and the Department of Justice. Those would be the occupants of a new facility. The other occupants that now would not be in a facility as we're not mandated to

build those spaces into a government space, the Dehcho First Nation government, if they're interested, could work as we have suggested in other communities if they wanted to put additional space into that space. They could work with us and provide the funds in those areas. But these core areas of service delivery are GNWT areas of mandate, so we have to be doing that at a minimum on our own. That's the decision that's made, is to replace with a new facility for the mandated departments I've just listed off and we're still going to need a minimum of two years to get a new facility on the ground. In the meantime, we're going to have to do minimum code requirements to keep this other facility open. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Braden.

Yes, briefly, Mr. Chairman. What is so disappointing about this discussion is just the inability of the Minister, and I'm assuming the client department here, to broaden their horizons, to look at innovation and new thinking that could really work in the best interests of the whole community for the long term. I just don't get the sense that the government is capable of doing that and it is terribly disappointing and now we have this ultimatum in front of us.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Next on the list I've got Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know this is not an easy decision and it really does impact the community. It's a very important building, it's a community building. I know the building extremely well and I realize the importance of it. I was there in Fort Simpson not that long ago and I got to walk through it again and see the day care and the important infrastructure that it provides to the community and you can definitely realize how critical it is to the community. I shouldn't just say Fort Simpson, I should call it the community at large.

The trouble is, are we giving value to the community? I'm cautious, because if for $3.5 million are we giving the community just a temporary band-aid solution? I'm concerned that the delay on this process that started I don't know how many years, and maybe that's what I should ask the Minister first is, when did this report first come out about these doom and loom, or whatever the phrase goes, as when these problems sort of arisen? So when did this report come out that the fire marshal said that the building needed to be shut down? When did his officials put their stamp on it and say that something needed to be done today? When did that clock start ticking? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I stated earlier, the indication I have, the fire marshal's office became involved in 2002 and looked at a number of things and looked at the occupancy until 2006, as well as other timelines. So it's been a number of years. Quite a number of options were looked at. Other options can be re-reviewed.

If we want to go back to the drawing board and try it again, the fact is there is no dollars identified for the Deh Cho Hall right now in the capital plan. Any work to do any improvements or to even look at portable units to put in the community interim, we need the funds. There are no funds right now in the plan to deal with that facility. Unfortunately, we are in this situation. The work was reviewed quite a number of years ago, but the plan wasn't accepted and, based on that, I can only go on why it never made the cut whenever it came forward for funding either for renovation or replacement in previous years. I know from our involvement at this point we've looked at a number of options, we've worked with the client department, the client department has now come forward with a request for the fact that this needs to be done to continue occupancy of the building. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, I appreciate those answers and it certainly feels as if the decision to do this was made at the last minute, whereas now we're forced with a really tough decision. Do we spend a lot of money to save a community building that truly is the heart of the community, or do we look like bad guys and say that we're not getting good value for money? The fact is, are we doing the community a disservice, because if we spend $3.5 million and if we get who knows how many years, I mean, some are saying two, some are saying four, but even if we get $3.5 million at three years worth of service, I mean, how much more will it cost to go beyond that? I mean, will it cost us another couple million dollars to go a couple more years? And at that time, I mean, how long do we have to sit on our hands before we make the right decision, which is this community deserves a proper building, a proper facility to run their day care, to run their community centre programs, to run the education offices, the library, the Minister knows all this. We don't need to lecture the Minister. But it's a shame that the wisdom, I should say or lack of wisdom, through the FMBS process that it's left us to the last minute to make this cruel decision. I'd like to hear from the Minister on how much it would cost to tear that building down. How much has there been an assessment, an environmental assessment on the extensiveness of what it would cost? You know? I'm sure that this building is inundated with asbestos and lead paint and who knows what else. On top of that, if renovations were to start today, that $3.5 million renovations, how long would it take to do them? Would it take a year to do them? A year and a half? Did the clock start ticking the day one if we approve the renovations? Would we impede on the fact that the three years of life actually turns out to be a year and a half or two years? Are we again getting value for money? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is not a result of the FMB or FMB process. This is a result of a plan that was tried to be worked out with the community and the client department, being Education, Culture and Employment, looking at a number of options. What was presented wasn't satisfactory with the community and a revised plan was worked on, put forward. Unfortunately the situation has gone on that the fire marshal has said this is the minimum requirements that are required at this point. So, Mr. Chairman, I don't know how many times I've got to say and repeat, the fact is there are no dollars identified right now in the capital plan to deal with the Deh Cho Hall. The only way there's

going to be money to deal with this in the temporary or long-term process would be to get approval from this Assembly. That's why the department has now gotten to the stage of doing that. They've looked at options to try and keep the facility open. The fact is a new facility, and this is what I think was of concern to the community as well, partly for the department, is that the new facility would only address the GNWT's need for space. That would be the Dehcho Divisional Education Council, Education, Culture and Employment's regional office, Aurora College program delivery and administration, and that means their learning centre as well, and the Department of Justice. So, Mr. Chairman, the many questions that keep coming out as a result of this, yes, when we look at value for dollars being spent this is not the best way to spend money, but ultimately we've got to have office space to keep these places open at a minimum until we get a new place. The department has identified they're going to go for a new facility and they would have to come in and get into the capital process through the business planning stage to get the dollars approved for a new facility. So, Mr. Chairman, I guess instead of delaying the fact and just continuing to repeat myself over and over here, if the committee's got a motion, then let's have somebody read the committee motion and get on with the day. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for the suggestion, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the stand the Minister has made, but I'd still like to know what the cost would be to tear that building down and has there been a full environmental assessment of that building, recognizing that it's probably full of asbestos and lead paint and who knows what else? To add to that question I'd asked earlier, what class of estimate was this $3.5 million pegged at? Was it a class A, class B, class C, or even a class D? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the demolition of a facility would be taken into the plan for a new facility. Whenever we plan a replacement facility, the demolition costs of an existing facility would be incorporated into that. This estimate is very recent. I can't give you an actual class of estimate, but it is based on the actual code requirements. For example, we would have to inspect the structural integrity, that's the columns right into the basement and crawlspace; deficiencies should be repaired or shall be repaired; required sign and stamp certification by an engineer; architectural fire separations, current code where possible, without tearing out existing; basement mechanical room, fire rating there; sprinkler system. There are a number of different things listed under there, as well as code things, fire system and other things. So there are, it's fairly recent, this is dated January 25, 2006, what we would have to do. Our estimates based on that information, I'll give you a breakdown. An A and E contract would be identified at less than $300,000; administration for $30,000; upgrade estimate is $2.5 million; a contingency is also built into there of 25 percent. So $3.5 million. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.