Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to thank the Minister and his staff for being here this evening with us to go over the main estimates for ITI. I've got a few general comments that I'd like to make, Mr. Chairman. The first one I guess I'll try to be a little bit funny. The Minister must have got the memo from the Minister of ENR in regard to not mentioning outfitting or caribou in his opening comments to the committee, so I'd like to just start off with that, Mr. Chairman. I didn't notice the word "outfitting" at all in the opening comments. In fact, his department has been somewhat I don't want to say invisible, but not around, I guess. We've had a number of meetings with outfitters back in December. December 16th, I believe it was, at the Northern Frontier Visitors Centre. We had another meeting on Friday with departmental staff from ENR and a number of outfitters, and a number of MLAs were also in attendance at that meeting as was the chief of Yellowknives, Mr. Fred Sangris, but there wasn't anybody from ITI at the meeting. So I just wanted to make a comment to that effect.

I've got a couple of other things I wanted to mention, the Minister, in his opening comments, talks about making sure that communities and businesses are adequately prepared to meet the demands and maximize benefits that the project will bring, this is the Mackenzie gas project. I couldn't agree with them more. I think we have an obligation to all of our residents in the Northwest Territories to ensure that we are ready and we can meet the demands. There is also going to be a number of socio-economic demands on communities that aren't part of the $500 million socio-economic impact fund that the feds announced last year. This is causing a number of communities and aboriginal groups that aren't part of the funding to stand up and question why it is that the government could stand by and get the funding for the affected communities when, if you go off...Every community in the Northwest Territories is going to be impacted one way or another by a $9 billion pipeline down the valley, whether we want to admit that or not. There will be impacts here in Yellowknife; there will be impacts in Fort Smith and in Hay River, communities who aren't part of this funding. So I'd certainly like to see, and I know the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, the Akaitcho, have written a letter to MLAs questioning why they haven't been included in any consultation, negotiation, you know; and they feel they are going to be impacted, as well, by the Mackenzie gas project.

I think it's important. We should take the message to the federal government that, you know, we're a territory of 43,000 people. Every last person is going to be impacted one way or another by this pipeline development and we need to get funding for each and every community. I think if we don't do that, we're not serving everybody here and we're not taking the opportunity to help our people get ready for this development and the impacts that it is going to bring to our communities. I should also mention the community of Behchoko in that, as well. We need to really seriously sit down with the federal government and iron out if there's another fund that can be set up for maybe communities that, according to the federal government, aren't as impacted as the ones up and down the valley then that's something I believe we should explore.

Let's see. The other thing, while I've got the floor, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to touch on just a little bit is the program review, the BDIC. It's been in the works for a little while now and I'm just wondering -- when we get to that section I can ask questions specific to that - but, you know, it just hasn't grown legs or seem to have developed into much and we still have, and my estimation would be areas of our operation that, you know, is there duplication. Just by looking at it from the outside I would suggest that

there is. Is there a way to do things better? I would suggest there is. What are we doing? I think we can do more in that regard, but, again, I'll have specific questions when we get to that page in the detail, Mr. Chairman.

Again, the department has done some very good things and before I...I know I've mentioned a few things it could work on, but I also wanted to mention the Tourism 2010 Strategy, the much needed funding that's gone into tourism and tourism marketing. The goals in that Tourism 2010 plan are a little bit lofty. Whether we can hit the targets on outside investment I hope we can, but they are quite lofty. We need to spend, as Madam Groenewegen mentioned in the committee's report, there's competition out there in the aurora tourism industry and we certainly need to pay attention to that and come up with ways to get some more money, especially into aurora tourism. We can't afford, if we're looking at diversifying our economy and growing a tourism sector, we can't stand by and watch this industry take a nose dive. We can't do that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Bell.

Mr. Chairman, I'll take your guidance on this. I didn't hear direct questions there. Do you want me to wait for the detail?

Yes. I think that's what we all agreed to previously, that we'll hear general comments and then when we go to detail we'll ask questions. Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I want to say also to the Minister in terms of his opening comments and in terms of the economic climate in the Northwest Territories and preparing our people for the various economic infusion, I guess I could say, in terms of how we're going to be impacted in our region and different areas that are being looked at and where we are working with the various groups. I guess, for myself, Mr. Chair, the smaller regions such as the Sahtu you have a very different playing field in terms of the users of the land. You have the mineral and mining people, you have the harvesters and you have the traditional trappers and hunters that use it, you have oil and gas and you have tourism. So it's very complex. How do you put together almost a season, because of the complexity of the people who use our land in our area and the department's working hard to, on the one hand, promote economic self-sufficiency but also being responsible land users, responsible land owners. Diversity...the diversification program that says...It's true what the Minister says; we can't always rely on one economic base here. It's a tough challenge for the Minister because we don't have the economic opportunities as other regions because of our situation. So during our winter road season we have a lot of activity going on and not so much in the summertime because of the situation we're in where we have to haul equipment on the barges and they only stage them in certain areas, so that poses a lot of issues for us. However, that's the lay of the land there and that's the way it is, but I think the process of getting to how do you, I don't know if you could stabilize or just to look at what is it that we need to do to look at other areas that could enhance our economy in the Northwest Territories, especially in our area at least.

One of the things that I'd really like to look at, and I'll ask the Minister more questions about the traditional economy aspect of it, of the beads, the sewing. There are some pretty good sewers up there and I know the arts and crafts, like any region, is we all have our unique and valuable sense of the work that we do in our region, especially by our older people. You know the wage economy has really taken over our lifestyle and I want to ask the Minister later on in terms of percentage of harvesters that we have in our region and how we will support them. It's a way of life and I know it's sometimes hard to categorize that as a business, but that's something that I want to ask him later on.

I just wanted to say that in terms of what we're doing in terms of ITI is, it seems to me, and just taking this from looking from this point of view into industry and tourism investment is that it seems to me that this department here is certainly -- I want to commend the Minister on this -- giving a lot of this stuff back to the region in terms of giving them some direction in terms of how we go about carving out our own economic areas. I think it's working in that sense. I wanted to say that. I hadn't seen this before in my three years so it seems to me that we have a lot of strong staff members working in our region, working for our communities, and I know there are areas we would certainly like to see improved but it seems that we're moving in the right direction. I wanted to say that on behalf of our region, Mr. Chair, that there are some areas that we certainly can work on and some areas that are going to require more of the department's, more of the government's support.

One point, I guess, I really want to follow up is on the Member from Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen, mentioned about the wood pellet initiative. I think that's a really good idea for our region. I'd like to know how this wood pellet initiative is being used within other areas of the government on a larger scale. I think it will be a really good area, because in our region it is isolated and we seem to have more difficulty with some of the programs. Again, it's no fault of anybody's, it's just because we're in that situation. Sometimes we lose out on the opportunities. I really like the idea that Mrs. Groenewegen proposed sometime in terms of wood pellet stoves and put wood pellets in some of our bigger departments within our government in the Sahtu region and also in some of our private business operations. I think that's a good enough issue to create our own wood pellet industry here in the Northwest Territories. I'm not too sure; I haven't seen any type of report in front of me that says this is what it costs for an industry or this is what it costs to have it. I don't know. I think it's a good idea but, again, I haven't seen enough reports, I haven't read enough in terms of if it's a viable and stable industry. I'm just thinking right here in terms of how to cut costs down in my communities in terms of the isolated situation we're in by having diesel fuel for our costs. Just some of these points I want to raise, Mr. Chair, and want to say that before we start on the budgets here, on the details. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Next I have Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just picking up on the Minister's opening comments, there's been numerous references in there to the importance and the significance of ensuring that we have a diversified economy in the Northwest Territories and, admittedly, a lot of the attention has turned towards the non-renewable

resource sector. They're kind of nice ones to deal with because pretty much someone else is driving the agenda; someone else has got a big incentive to make sure it works and make sure there's a profitable bottom line that they can report to their shareholders. Some of the ones that I want to focus on when we talk about a diversified economy are the renewable resource sectors. I think it's difficult...I don't think there's any easy magic answers to the support that needs to be provided to some of these industries, but they still are potentially viable sectors and there are sectors that, I think, have had a lot more play and have produced a lot more towards our economy in the past than what they are now. I think that in some of the renewable resource areas we've actually gone backwards rather than gone forwards and I think that that's unfortunate but they do require more support, and not just financial support, but just more support in general from this government. So I want to talk about the support that's needed for what could be a viable commercial timber harvest in the Northwest Territories. It seems like we've run into lots of roadblocks. I speak of that only because it's particularly relevant in the South Slave and in the area that I represent. It is a land-based activity and it is something that does have its political aspects to it, but in the past this is a particular activity which created a lot of jobs -- not relatively speaking to some of the big industry -- but it created jobs, it created economy, and it is part of that diversified economy we're talking about.

The commercial fishery is another one. Commercial fishing was, at one time, hugely significant to the economy of Hay River. Now, I think we're down to a closed fish plant in Hay River, and maybe two or three fishermen out on the lake this winter, probably the lowest the fishery has ever been on Great Slave Lake for commercial fishing. Fishermen are basically fishing for domestic use and the little bit that they can sell. They are faced with all kinds of challenges to do with the cost of operating and making sure that their equipment is adequate and efficient. But there is a sector that was very vibrant at one time and no longer is. I think that our government has not done enough in terms of trying to figure out what we need to do. There is a resource under that water; it's sustainable to harvest it; there's a quota; the fish can be taken; it is readily marketable; it is a quality product; it has the potential of creating jobs and economy for people in the Northwest Territories and we just can't figure it out, either because of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and that monopoly that's federally imposed or...Anyway, I won't go on about some of the challenges, but that is another viable sector that requires some intervention on the part of this government, but it's one that's just going to waste right now.

Then there is the issue of agriculture and the opportunity for this sector, again, has a lot of potential. The weather patterns and zones for growing crops is moving north. What used to be viable to produce in the U.S. mid-west has moved up into Canada and is now moving up into central Alberta and many things could be done in terms of livestock, in terms of crops, that could be done in our area but we lack a framework, we lack an agricultural policy and again we just seem to lack the will as a government to address things like the Property Assessment and Taxation Act, which would allow people to own enough land of significant enough quantity to actually do something in the agricultural sector. Again, an untapped economic sector with relatively little support.

Mr. Yakeleya mentioned the arts and craft area. We've seen good examples of where this does provide jobs and economy in communities. I would say that the model that we saw in Fort Liard was a good one and I think the key to that model was the cooperation, the cooperative... It's hard for people to do these activities on a stand-alone basis. They need a central agency where they can get materials, through which they can market their products, and where they can just get the kind of encouragement that they need to continue at it and create some economy for themselves in doing it. Again, I think that most times when you go into our communities, with a few exceptions, if you can come across the artisans, if you can come across the products, it's like finding a needle in a haystack and it's a happy, lucky day when you find somebody that has something that's for sale, because it's a very disorganized particular sector of our economy in the Northwest Territories. I know that, through the Dev Corp, efforts were made to try and organize things and the art of trading company, but sometimes we need to just provide the support at the community level and let the folks there figure out the best way to work together cooperatively.

Things like the muskox harvest have contributed to our economy in the past. When we talk about the caribou, somebody needs to just be more creative. I think there are a lot of caribou hunted in the Northwest Territories, but maybe somebody needs to think about how we could maximize the benefit from that particular harvest, whether it be aboriginal harvesters or whomever. You can buy commercially tanned deer hide. Why can't you buy commercially tanned caribou hide? Why is it just better to leave the hide sitting at the place where you shot the animal after you've skinned it, than it is to bring it to someplace where it could potentially be processed, which would create a job or two and could be sold which would create more money for the person that's actually investing and going out there hunting the caribou? Everybody seems to want antlers that's in the outfitters business. Maybe we should be selling the antlers, too. I don't know; there just has to be a way of being more creative and responding to how we might be taking a more businesslike approach to some of these things.

On the area of tourism, I just want to say another very important sector, potentially very little environmental impact. It's just quite an industry when people will come here by the thousands to use all our services and do aurora viewing and things like that. But I think there's also a huge potential for cultural tourism. Again it's a matter of getting people organized and realizing that there's money to be made in doing it. I think studies in southern Canada have shown there's a tremendous interest in cultural tourism. Again, it's very low impact but it could employ a lot of people and create a lot of economy.

One of the other things that has been talked about in the past and I don't know if it's ever been explored very far, but all kinds of different people have different interests. Some people might not be so interested in the aurora viewing; they might be interested in...Diamond tourism is one thing that was considered at one time. There are people who have hobbies and interests in geology, that have all kinds of different interests that are perhaps reflected in some of the things we have to offer here in the Northwest Territories. So I think we need to not get in a rut in the way we think about what visitors would like to do here and how we can attract visitors to the Northwest Territories through tourism, and we need to continue to

listen to people's ideas, to encourage people to brainstorm, and continue to provide support to some of these renewable resource sectors because they have contributed to our economy and hopefully will continue to do so. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. General comments. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a few aspects of the department that some of my colleagues have highlighted. I'd like to endorse a couple things and maybe bring a couple other things to the floor.

The aspect of outfitting has been mentioned. A tremendous amount of attention has been paid to the recent skirmish involving caribou outfitting in this part of the territory. But something that I don't want to lose sight of, Mr. Chairman, is that outfitting is quite a diverse economic activity in just about all parts of the NWT and takes advantage of many of the species that live here: polar bear, bison, muskox, sheep in the great Sahtu, right?

The mighty Sahtu. Thank you. I stand corrected; the mighty Sahtu. So the comment that I would like to leave with committee, Mr. Chair, is that, as I say while there may be a lot of attention focused on one sector of the outfitting industry right now, and indeed there are major hurdles that the department has accountability for, there are many other regions of the NWT and many other people who have invested in this industry on the strength of our government's mandate and stewardship of wildlife resources. We are saying that these species can be harvested for sports hunting for revenue. We have invested a tremendous amount of money, Mr. Chairman, and human resources in designing the regulatory framework and the monitoring, as well, Mr. Chairman, as the investment that's gone into overall tourism marketing, and I'm including in here the money that is specifically earmarked for outfitters and for the sports hunting industry. So my plea here is to not lose sight of the broader and the bigger and the longer-term context of sports hunting and outfitting as a very genuine and, I advocate very strongly, a sustainable and responsible part of our overall wildlife regime and our economies.

Mr. Chairman, this department shares responsibility with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment in the NWT Arts Strategy. Roughly speaking, the ECE department has a responsibility for what is largely called art for arts sake, while my understanding is that this Department of ITI has more of a commercial, marketing and an economic accent. However, in going over the detail that's provided in the budget, and for that matter in the business plan -- perhaps I've missed it, Mr. Chairman, and we can get to it at the appropriate point in the papers here -- I see no reference, no accent, no highlight whatsoever to this department's mandate for doing its part through the Arts Strategy to enhance the corporate and the commercial and the economic side of the arts.

Mr. Chairman, in the department's business plan documents, and I don't think I'm taking liberty here when I say that our evaluation tonight is indeed on the appropriation from 2007-08, but it is also a three-year business plan that we're looking at for all the departments of the government. It's noted here that the NWT is experiencing an out-migration in population. In other words, fewer people are choosing to stay here in the NWT. It's quite a contrast when we have Canada's sort of biggest GDP by population, the most activity going on of virtually any region in Canada relative to our size, and yet people are leaving. We go over this on a very routine basis, Mr. Chairman. What are the causes of this? Cost of living, isolation, hot economy in our neighbouring provinces that attracts them away. But I think we should really be taking much more of an in-depth look at this, Mr. Chairman. If we are to sustain the growth that we're seeing here, the needs of our population, then this is something that I think we should be ramping up on the radar screen for something that deserves our attention really because, as I've said, Mr. Chairman, sustaining and expecting growth in the areas that we've become used to really won't be possible.

Mr. Chairman, another aspect of planning and taking a look at the landscape, the environment that we're operating is even though resources are key and the reason for the success and the optimism that we have, the major project, the proposed Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline is not a certainty. We are still waiting for the agencies and the decision-makers well outside our jurisdiction to make up their mind about whether or not this is indeed a viable project. While this government has firmly staked its ground as wanting this project to happen, we've invested heavily again in the preparatory actions to get ready for it, in the event, the unfortunate and hopefully unlikely event that it does not happen, or does not happen within the time frame or the scale or the scope that we want it to, what then do we have to come and fill in the gaps and provide some long-term sustainability to our economy and to the communities, especially down the Mackenzie Valley and the delta, who will be probably drastically affected by a decision not to build this pipeline? So if we're going to be strategic about this, I think we have to, as well, cover off the potential that things just may not go as we want.

Mr. Chair, I'll stop there and see if anybody else wants to speak to general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. General comments.

Does committee wish to proceed with the detail?

Can we go to 10-10? Information item, revenue summary.

Page 10-13, activity summary, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, $6.564 million.

Go to page 10-16 and 10-17, activity summary, energy, mines and petroleum resources, operations expenditure summary, $7.221 million. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that future resource development companies sign socio-economic agreements similar to those of the diamond mines. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The motion is being handed out.

The motion is in order.