I appreciate those comments and that update. My last question here is we seem to be getting pretty wet seasons and certainly our falls have become quite wet compared to what they used to be with a lot of freeze/thaw cycles to it. We’ve had a good amount of work going with the Ingraham Trail, some work on the Dettah road and the Highway No. 3 and so on. Are there any observations or insights being collected on what this means to the cost of our capital projects and transportation in the Yellowknife region? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. Next on my list is Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is more in regard to the bridges in the Northwest Territories. It seems we’ve put a lot of focus on the bridges in the Mackenzie Valley. I mean the issue on that one was mostly around environmental liability issues in regard to Fisheries and Oceans and also extending the seasons for those roads. I know I’ve mentioned it in this House before. Have we looked at the possibility of replacing our ferry operations with permanent bridges so that we can get that 12 month a year access?

Also, looking at the studies, I know using the Peel River there were studies back in the ‘60s where they did some studies with Public Works Canada and again back in the mid-‘80s again with Public Works Canada. I think as a department we seem to be not really looking at the long-term costs of replacing the ferries versus the cost at some point of putting permanent bridges in place like we’ve done in the Sahtu. I think that we have enough expertise now over the years of looking at bridges. Like you say with regards to Blackwater, it’s a $50 million bridge. I think we have to start looking at that aspect of it.

From the research I’ve done, a lot of the engineering and design work was done back in the ‘60s where a lot of the information available today on even the locations that they had for crossings where they did for studies is not ideal for a bridge.

So I’d like to ask the department in regard to planning dollars and money that you have, is there any possibility of any investment research funds looking at core sampling or looking at locations such as the Peel River to see where the ideal location will be and trying to find out if it’s economically viable to do those studies to see exactly where the best economy crossing would be if you ever had to put a bridge in place knowing that the site that’s there right now is not ideal for a bridge?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Neudorf.

I also got some research done in that area. Number one, the location where the Peel Crossing is and where they were talking about the crossing, that one side alone, you have to go down 180 feet in order to hit bedrock. That is the reason that it is so costly. That’s why I am saying that in order to make it economically viable, you have to have an ideal location where you can cross the river. There is a location upstream from the existing site and all we are asking the department to do is to do a bunch of core sampling to see if that is a more ideal position than what you are looking at. That one peer alone, where I mentioned, is 180 feet down. It’s going to cost $7 million. Just by that alone, the economics are not there. You have to look at a different location from where the existing ferry crossing is now in order to make the bridge economically viable. They have been looking at the numbers. You talk $70 million. The number I got from the private sector is $48 million. So there is a little difference between 70 and 48. I think like with anything with government, if government builds it, it’s going to cost a lot more.

Again, we talked about P3 money, there is a $50 million potential out there looking at a P3 project, replacement cost for ferry operations. You look at the cost for ice roads. You look at the cost in association with infrastructure, traffic, future pipelines and whatnot. The volumes are going to go up and the economics could be there.

Without these tests, I would like to ask would the department consider looking at $100,000 or a $75,000 investment to do some of the core sampling so we can identify the possibility of another ideal site or location which will make the economics more viable? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister Michael McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think all the Members in the House recognize the cost of building bridges are very extreme and it certainly would be a fiscal challenge for our government to actually finance and provide the

resources to build one bridge in the typical fashion required for building a bridge.

We have considered, as part of what would be a Mackenzie Valley Highway, that the bridges along that route would be covered and part of the road, if there was ever federal resources to build that road. We do have, as the Member has indicated, expertise on a lot of the aspects of building bridges. We just don’t have the dollars to do so.

There has been a lot of work that has been done, as the Member has referenced, in the ‘60s and ‘70s on all the major crossings. We have that information. There has also been other work on ice floes and ice patterns and breakup that has been studied and that information is available.

The Mackenzie Valley winter road has seen a lot of investment over the last while. That was as a result over federal programs that were available that targeted resource development areas and it allowed us to build quite a few bridges; 34 I think the last count was. As the Member has again indicated, some bridges along our highway transportation systems such as the Liard, the Ndulee, the Peel and the Tsiigehtchic crossing that don’t have a mechanism to finance, we, of course, would be happy if there was some way to do it, but at this point fiscally it will be a challenge. We don’t have the resources in our own coffers. Even if we do look at the P3 program, the P3 program would require some significant capital. It would only pay for the direct costs. So anything leading up to the actual construction would have to be covered by the proponent or a partner. We haven’t been able to identify that partner or the resources as of yet to take advantage of that program for any of the bridges that have been identified. Thank you.

I believe we do have some perfect avenues to take. We have the Deh Cho Bridge Act to fall onto or whatever it is. It is in the process and legislation has passed in this House to take a look at that concept of building a bridge. We have the P3 policy that we are considering looking at with federal investment partnerships. I think that sometimes we have to think of unique ways of achieving these results. At the end of the day, in closing, I would just like to ask the Department of Transportation...This summer alone the ferry crossing on the Peel, because of flash floods or basically major rainstorms in the mountains, caused the ferry to shut down and there is a lot of concern by the residents of Fort McPherson and the people about the fish in that area. That the amount of gravel that is put into that river year after year after year, and having to replace that gravel every time you have a major flood, those materials, what effect is it having on the fish habitat? What effect is it having in regards to navigable waters?

I think that we, at the end of the day, have to realize that there is a liability associated with continuing to

run ferry operations, and realizing that we are having more severe flooding, that we are seeing more severe situations by way of having to close the ferry down because of simple high water, driftwood and everything else. We have to look at the possibility that at some point facing the piper in regards to having to realize that there is a liability associated with running ferry operations and what is the cost of that liability versus the environmental costs and the political and social costs to the communities that are seeing these implications. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, it is very hard to challenge the Member’s comments. There is a liability issue on any of our crossings. It has to be recognized that there is a contribution to the effects of greenhouse gases. Operating these vessels consume a lot of fuel. We have looked at and considered all the bridges within our road system and have looked at trying to be creative and find ways to construct bridges or replace the ferry systems with bridges.

The Deh Cho Bridge Project is a project that was viable because of the traffic volumes and, more specifically, the traffic volumes to the mines. We don’t have that in other areas of the Territory. That may change in the future. We are always looking for opportunity and looking for federal investment and we continue to raise those issues. We will continue to push those forward.

The Peel River, as the Member has indicated, had concerns raised by the community, by a lot of his constituents that do use that area for traditional harvesting of fish and we have had some discussion with the Member and the leadership of his communities to see if we can find a way to offset the amount of gravel that is used to firm up the approaches. We agreed to do that. We are going to be applying to the water board for a new water licence this year, so I don’t think...We have already been put on notice that we need to do a better job. We have already agreed. We have engaged the assistance of an engineer to design something that would work on the Peel that would allow the vehicles to have a firm approach so that we don’t have to use as much gravel or we don’t have to use any gravel in terms of firming up the approach. It is my understanding that we are getting there.

My department has already looked at some sketches that would have a design of some combination of steel and concrete that could be moved as the water levels fluctuate, and I am quite confident that we will have something that we can bring to the community and share that information with them so that we will remove at least that part of the concern. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you Minister McLeod. We are on to page 10, Transportation, activity summary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I want to ask the Minister in terms of safety on the winter roads. There is 800 kilometres of winter roads between Wrigley and Colville Lake and the Minister, in the past, has indicated that safety measures were being done on the winter road by placing safety signage posts along the road. I witnessed this last winter, the contractors being out. Still there continues to need to be more signage on the roads, grade improvements on the roads, widening and realignment of the roads and I would ask the Minister that this work continue on for several more years in terms of improvements in safety until we get a Mackenzie Valley Highway built and to continue improving the safety as more and more vehicles are being used on the roads and younger and younger generations of people are using these roads. I think because the contractors have done such a good job on building these roads, that they drive pretty fast. That is the curse of having good contractors working on the winter roads, so I hope they continue working on the great improvements and safety of the winter roads.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

This is an issue that I think the Member has raised every year from the time he was elected in this position. It is certainly an area that we have worked towards improving. I think that we have spent more than $5 million in a number of key improvements and along the Mackenzie Valley winter road. We have, at his request, looked at putting a number of signs along the winter road so that the traffic could be informed of corners and hills and we also overall wanted to have a stronger presence with our highway enforcement officers and highway patrols and changed our permitting system and have replaced a lot of our highway patrol officers that were issuing permits at the weigh scales, to clerks and admin staff, so that our people could be out there and have a stronger presence. I think that is going to be reflected in the increased number of patrols along the Mackenzie Valley winter road system starting from now on.

The Minister is correct that the department has shifted some of its focus onto the safety of the passengers in the Sahtu region on the winter road and they certainly appreciate the winter road improvements. I would ask the Minister if he would be open to having his staff talk to some of the local contractors in terms of some of the areas that they could certainly improve on, realignment, grade improvement, there are certainly discussions. We have driven the road, we know the road and certainly the department has some of the expertise

to put to use, so I wonder if we could work in collaboration as to which areas we feel needs to be improved by widening, realigning, cutting down some of the grades and use some of our expertise, traditional knowledge as to what part of the season is the best to do this work. Sometimes it is best to do it in the winter and sometimes it is more advantageous to do this in the summertime, so if we could have that kind of open discussion. Thank you.

We would be pleased to continue our consultations with the communities and also the contractors. We plan to continue with our grade improvements, working on the alignment and also with the signs. We have done a lot of work in the area with erosion controls at some of the crossings. We have also looked at doing additional clearing and other improvement work at some of the tighter corners and some of the areas that we need more visibility in terms of sight distances, and places that would allow for vehicles to pull over. We would be more than happy to talk to the contractors as we engage with the communities for our consultation. Thank you.

The one concern, that I know the department has been in discussions with the leadership in Deline is the realignment of the road from the mouth of Great Bear Lake and Bennett Field, specifically at the mouth of Great Bear Lake where there is a burial site and the department has been talking with the community in terms of moving the road off the area where the burial site is. I know the Minister has had his staff go to Deline and are going to do work.

My understanding is there was some discussion as to how soon this can get done. My previous discussion with some of the officials is that they were waiting for Nahanni access road construction to be completed before they get into the Deline road construction, so I just want to make sure that this isn’t the case and that they will continue to work with Deline and they will work on a time schedule that the Deline winter road realignment project will proceed and not wait until the Nahanni access road program is done to move equipment into the Sahtu from the Nahendeh in terms of the Department of Transportations’ aspect. We certainly want to see mostly our equipment being used, rather than having the Department of Transportation equipment. It makes sense to have our own equipment there.

Mr. Chairman, we plan to move ahead with the realignment as planned. We have had consultation with the communities. We have talked about the areas of concern for a number of years. Two issues were raised. There is the burial grounds at the mouth of the Great Bear Lake where the ice takes a long time to form. We have planned and designed a route so that we can

have the road avoid the burial grounds and so that it crosses a location where the ice is thicker and freezes sooner, so I think we have dealt with all the concerns and our plan is to go ahead as we had discussed with the community.

I am certainly pleased to hear from the Minister in terms of their plan to go ahead with the Deline realignment of the road project and certainly the people from Deline will be happy to hear that.

Another issue that I want to just touch on which Mr. Krutko, the MLA from the Delta, talked about is the bridging programs. Certainly one that we in the Sahtu are looking forward to, specifically in Norman Wells and the hamlet of Tulita was looking at the Bear River bridge. This somehow has become a challenge for this government and this department as to how you put together a package to make a project go of this size.

Certainly Mr. Krutko has given some discussion as to the bridge that he would like to see in the Mackenzie Delta. There are similar wishes of the people of the Sahtu to see a bridge at Bear River also happen. At the same time, you look at the challenges of Great Bear Lake where there is climate change and thinning of the ice, and I know that in future there is going to be discussion as to a bridge up on the Bear River further up to the mouth of Bear Lake in terms of that situation; to go back to the Bear River bridge in terms of seeing if there is any type of further funding to make this bridge a reality.

I want to ask the Minister the department’s plans in terms of constructing bridges along the Mackenzie River. He talked about 30 bridges. We certainly see the benefits of having these bridges now in the Mackenzie Valley and we certainly want to see the Bear River bridge be one that can be constructed or one that could be at least funded in the life of this government.

Mr. Chairman, this bridge is a project that has been in the works for some time. At one point it was up for consideration for investment, however, the project costs came back with a dollar figure that was more than double what the budget was set at and in 2008 that budget was estimated to be $60 million. It is a project that would probably eliminate one of the bigger obstacles of the opening of the Mackenzie Valley winter road. We have looked at pots of money that we thought we could tap into. We raised it a number of times in meetings with Canada and the reason for raising it, of course, is because it is a project that is already packaged and ready to go. The design is done. The calculation, all the technical aspects are completed. The federal government has indicated they are currently unwilling to fund this project, this bridge. It certainly is beyond the means of our department to find $60

million from within. The project would have to stay and be considered as we move forward with the construction whenever there is a construction plan for the Mackenzie Valley Highway. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. We are on page 9-10, Transportation, activity summary, highways. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just on the Bear River bridge, has the department given any consideration to ask the federal government, the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation or the Minister of Finance within the federal government if there was a project somewhere in Canada that somehow didn’t make it or had some cancellation, can this bridge be considered as a possibility for funding, seeing if this bridge could get some support from the feds?