This is page numbers 4411 - 4462 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was project.

Topics

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

I appreciate the Member’s comments. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Ramsay.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few more questions on the $15 million. As I understand it, the lenders issued real-return bonds which are adjusted for inflation. I guess they’re slated to be interest only until December 1st of

2011, at which time we’d make the first payment on the principal. I’m just wondering, what portion of the $15 million that is in this supp is going to pay interest costs, and can the Minister provide us a breakdown of where that $15 million is being allocated to the project. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Neudorf.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Member is correct that the $15 million is added and it will bring the total project budget to $181.4 million. The breakdown of that $181.4 million is provided in one of the tables titled Deh Cho Bridge Project Estimates Summary. So in the final column it breaks down how the $181.4 million will be spent and that includes the $15 million that is being requested today.

In terms of specific interest payments, actually, the one-year delay in the project will cost additional interest of about $5.5 million. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

I thank Mr. Neudorf for that. On the breakdown of the $15 million, though, if you look at the projected estimate, February 2010, if $5.5 million is going toward interest, where’s the other $9.5 million going? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

The other $9.5 million is going to the various items that are noted. If you want to break it down a little bit further, the actual construction has gone up a little bit, but stays more or less the same. There’s about $7.5 million of claims to deal with from the first two years of construction, so a portion would go to that. Then, with the Bridge Corporation and their uncertainty in equity around the changing of the general contractor, then we require an additional $2.5 million to replace that money. So $5 million interest, $7.5 million in claims and $2.5 million lost equity would equal $15 million. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

I’m just wondering, too, if we’re just paying interest only up until December 1, 2011, are the total project costs building up on themselves over that period of time, because we’re not actually making payments. Are we going to expect an inflated project cost on December 1, 2011, than what we’re talking about today? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

The total project cost noted here is what we expect the total cost to be to get us to a completed bridge in November 2011. With the financing on the project, all of the money was given upfront to the project. So $165.5 million from the lenders was given to the project. It’s sitting in construction accounts, and as expenditures are incurred, the project draws upon that funding. So some of the expenses would include the interest cost on that borrowed money, as well, which is included in the estimates. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

On a construction infrastructure project like the Deh Cho Bridge, I’m just wondering, in terms of management, construction management, corporate management, things like that, typically what would a project like that encounter in terms of a percentage of cost. If we’re looking at close to $30 million on construction management, construction overhead, to me that number seems a little bit inflated and it’s close to 15 percent of the total project costs. I’m just wondering, is that industry norm or standard or how do we explain that. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

Typical project management related costs for a GNWT-managed project would be 10 to 15 percent, maybe 8 to 15 percent. So this is obviously on the high end of that. I’d attribute it to the structure of the project. It is a P3 project; it took us a long time to get it to where we were ready to sign the Concession Agreement. It’s got a lot of oversight on it because of the magnitude of the funding associated with it. So it’s at the high end of what you would expect. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Mr. Chairman, I’m just wondering if there is any legal recourse for the Government of the Northwest Territories to pursue the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation for their inability to deliver the project on budget. The design, like I said, the issues with the design, the issues with the subcontractors, the issue with the general contractor. They’ve been removed. I mean, can we go back after the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation to recoup some of the costs that they’ve forced the government to incur? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Minister Miltenberger.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a number of options like those available for a number of different facets of this project. They key for us now, though, is to get the project stabilized, get the funding sorted out and flowing so that we can, in fact, conclude this project, and do as Minister McLeod indicated, a review, and see where that information and review would take us in terms of next steps, once we’re past the immediate challenge and imperative, which is to get this project stabilized. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

I understand and appreciate the fact that we need to stabilize the funding and move

this thing along, but like I said, at the end of the day, I think those who didn’t deliver what they were supposed to deliver, whatever recourse the government has to ensure that happens, I think we should pursue it with vigour, Mr. Chairman.

The other question I have: this contract, and it hasn’t been signed as of yet with this company, and I suppose now that you’re going to make this document public it’s probably public knowledge that you’re close to signing or have signed a construction contract with one company. What is the amount of that contract and what is the contingency built into that price, as well, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Neudorf.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The amount of the contract that has been negotiated with Ruskin Construction and their team as laid out in the package is, for the phase 2 work, $68.1 million. That is the amount that is noted in the table that we provided. There is still some work that Ruskin needs to do to complete the phase 1, the construction from the first season. There is about $4 million worth of work that will be carried over to next summer, mostly around abutments and finishing that work. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

I know the deputy minister said $4 million, but on the chart it says there is about $22 million of outstanding work by Ruskin on phase 1, so maybe, is it four or 22, because that is a big difference.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

The amount shown on the chart, $22 million, is the amount that is required to complete the four piers on the north side plus the abutments, so the four piers will be essentially done in a couple of weeks. There will be $4 million worth of the $22 million that will be carried over to next year and completed.

The Member had also asked a question about contingency, the second last line item reports a contingency that is built into that $15 million estimate, or our $15 million supplementary request. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

One of the other areas of concern was the fact that the design has always been something that hasn’t been... We haven’t really arrived at a finalized design. I know the Minister just last week was talking about there being some components to that design that still are outstanding. The question I would have is: how can the government sign a contract with this construction company with those issues outstanding? Because in my experience, Mr. Chairman, going back to my days as a city councillor, when you start, design changes on the fly, it costs you nothing but money and it gets very expensive. So, Mr. Chairman, how can the Minister assure us that this number of

$68.1 million is going to be a legitimate number? Because when you add those moving parts out there, with design issues, I think we are going to be in for some surprises, Mr. Chairman. Thanks.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

We do have a final approved design on the bridge. We have been working since last August to get that. It has been very detailed, very involved. It has gone through two separate independent reviews and we are now very comfortable with the design that we have going forward and it is complete and finalized.

There are three aspects of that design that still remain to be finalized and there is a plan for doing that over the next couple of months. Those are relatively minor items representing about 2 percent of the value, that is why there is a line item there titled Miscellaneous Construction for $2.2 million that would be used to address the three minor items that are not yet finalized. Those three items are for lighting electrical, to finalize that and we are still waiting a little bit because we want to do some work on the toll collection system and see how that relates, and the design of a catwalk underneath the bridge to facilitate operations and maintenance inspections and then the final paving on top of the bridge, the design for that. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

February 22nd, 2010

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. Committee, we seem to be still on page 6 here. Any further questions? Sorry; I have Mr. Menicoche.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In my opening comments I indicated the frustration of the people in my constituency about the increasing costs and they actually asked the question, why are we paying over here in Nahendeh when we will hardly be using the bridge. They actually brought up the fact that many other large infrastructure projects in other jurisdictions it is a full toll system for everybody, and one of the fellows brought up the Coquilhalla Highway and it actually pays for itself.

In this case, we are talking about a toll for only 18-wheel trucks or a certain amount of axels, but in other jurisdictions everybody pays and my experience travelling out east was that, yes, you are paying $5 or $10 to travel on a highway or travel across a bridge, but at least you are seeing that piece of infrastructure. So with that being said, is there any provision in our Concession Agreement to expand on a full toll system for another source of revenue, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Deputy Minister Neudorf.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Russ Neudorf

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just in terms of the frustration in increasing costs, I think it has been noted, but it is worth repeating, but the project is 50 percent done, so we are comfortable with that. The new design is compete and approved

so there won’t be significant changes going forward. We do have a contractor in place and the contract for that work has been initialled. We just initialled this last Friday so we have got that signed up, and we have got a new and improved project management in place, so we think that we have much more oversight on the project that we will be able to control and ensure that we don’t get into the same type of situation that we have right now.

In terms of the tolls and paying for costs and potentially adjusting it for tolls, we have always, in the benefit costs, the economic analysis that we did, we wanted to keep the toll so that the actual cost of the toll was slightly less than the benefits that would be incurred by the public, by consumers as a result of that toll. So we had provided that information previously to the Members. The benefits of the Deh Cho Bridge were about $7 a tonne. Our toll was set at about $6 per tonne, so slightly less than. Of course the government had to make up the difference to have the project go ahead. The previous government agreed to an additional subsidy of $2 million to address the higher costs and we are here requesting another $15 million again to address some of the cost increases.

I would note that that $15 million is being funded as per the Concession Agreement, so the Concession Agreement speaks to the Government of the Northwest Territories providing upfront the additional costs that were required for the project, but we would get paid back over the life of the project from the revenues for the project. Thank you.