Thank you, Madam Chair. The committee wishes to continue with Tabled Document 9-17(4), NWT Main Estimates, 2013-2014, with Environment and Natural Resources.

Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Does committee agree?

Agreed. We will proceed after a brief recess. Thank you.

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I’ll call the committee back to order. We are continuing on with our review of the main estimates and the department we have up next is Department of Environment and Natural Resources. I’d like to ask Minister Miltenberger if he’d like to provide opening comments to his department.

Yes, I would, Madam Chair.

I am pleased to speak to the 2013-2014 main estimates for the Department of Environment and Natural Resources. The plan proposes total operational expenses of $71.5 million for the upcoming year. This represents an 8.9 percent, or $5.8 million, increase from last year’s budget.

The bulk of this increase is attributed to forced growth adjustments of $5.3 million to cover increased costs for forest fire operations and suppression, preparing for increased oil and gas exploration and development in the Sahtu and completing negotiations on a transboundary water agreement with Alberta and $1.6 million in energy initiatives. This increase was offset by a $1 million reduction due to funding sunsets and other adjustments.

As Members are aware, the mandate of the Department of Environment and Natural Resources is to promote and support the sustainable use and development of our natural resources and to protect, conserve and enhance the environment for the social and economic benefit of all residents.

The department also supports and promotes the priorities of the 17th Legislative Assembly as

outlined in Believing in People and Building on the Strength of Northerners.

A range of activities are proposed to uphold this mandate and this Assembly’s priorities. I would like to highlight a few key investments planned for the next fiscal year.

We are investing an additional $2.5 million to the fire suppression base funding to allow the department to adequately plan and respond to forest fire activity without the recurring risk of exceeding its appropriated amount. An increase to the suppression budget was requested by the Standing Committee on Economic Development and Infrastructure.

The fire suppression budget has remained static for the past five years and has proven to be insufficient to meet demands in four out of five of those years. The department is also receiving additional funds to cover cost increases for 11 contract forest fire management crews, to provide training for firefighters and to cover increases in the volume and price of aviation fuel for aircraft including helicopters and CL-215 and L-188 Electra aircraft.

As Members requested, we have identified an additional $1.6 million for our energy initiatives. This will result in increased funding for alternative energy technology, commercial energy conservation and efficiency, and energy efficiency incentive programs. Other key activities include ongoing delivery of the Greenhouse Gas Strategy, funding of regional energy advisors in Inuvik, Norman Wells, Behchoko and Fort Simpson, a community scale wind demonstration project in an Arctic Coast community, and installation of remote

smart grids to help improve the efficiency, reliability and sustainability of the production and distribution of electricity.

The department will also continue implementing the NWT Biomass and Solar Energy strategies.

Increased oil and gas activity in the Sahtu region may result in significant environmental impacts. A coordinated approach to collecting baseline information will allow us to monitor these impacts and ensure we have the appropriate information to make informed decisions related to development in the Sahtu. Additional resources have been allocated for a new environmental protection officer position in the Sahtu region and for gathering environmental baseline data.

We continue to make good progress in our negotiations on a bilateral transboundary water resources management agreement with Alberta. Additional funding has been identified to continue this important work which includes Section 35 consultation with Aboriginal governments and regional workshops on the development of Northwest Territories positions for the bilateral agreement negotiations.

The department continues its work on a range of activities which address the priorities of building a strong and sustainable future for our territory, and strengthening and diversifying our economy.

Key activities for the 2013-2014 fiscal year include protecting territorial waters, mitigating and adapting to climate change impacts, improving environmental stewardship and working collaboratively with Aboriginal governments, communities, industry and the public, to conserve our environment and ensure the wise and sustainable use of our resources.

This will be accomplished through the introduction of a new Wildlife Act during this session, the expansion of community-based water monitoring programs, the implementation of a number of wildlife management strategies and action plans including those for barren-ground caribou, boreal caribou and wood bison, the development of sustainable forest economies in our communities, the coordination of the government’s participation in the environmental assessment process, and the development and implementation of an electronic waste program.

ENR staff also continue to work with the devolution office to review, assess and analyze waste management sites identified for transfer to our government and plan for an orderly transfer of organizational records from the federal government.

Thank you for the opportunity to provide an overview of the department’s 2013-2014 main estimates. I look forward to discussing them in more detail. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. I’d like to ask the Minister if he would like to bring witnesses into the Chamber.

Yes, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Does committee agree?

Agreed. Thank you. I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witnesses to the table.

For the record, Mr. Miltenberger, would you introduce your witnesses, please.

Madam Chair, I have with me Ernie Campbell, deputy minister of Environment and Natural Resources, and Ms. Nancy Magrum, director of shared services for ENR and ITI. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. We’ll now move on to general comments. Just by way of process here, folks, I believe the wish of the committee is Members will make general comments, not including questions that they expect the Minister to answer. We will save the questions for the detail and we will ask the Minister to hold his response to the general comments until the end until everyone has provided general comments. Agreed?

Agreed. Thank you. General comments. Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks to the Minister for his opening comments. I’d like to start, as he essentially did here, with the energy programs. I’m very disappointed, obviously, in the decrease. We established $1.7 million last year. What this government wants, and I think it’s spoken clearly on, is increasing spending in energy initiatives. I suppose I have to make it clear that I’m not talking about subsidies on fossil fuel, which is where we seem to be putting literally hundreds of millions of dollars. When I add it all up, it’s that sort of number. It’s pretty startling. So I’m very disappointed on that front and, again, I know we will get into some details on that.

I want to note the challenge, recognize the challenge, for preparing for funding for fires. It’s totally unpredictable. We do know, though, that with climate change, the fire characteristics are changing and the costs are changing. Here, we didn’t have so much as big or numerous fires as very expensive fires. That’s the sort of characteristic that is predicted to become more and more problematic. As our land dries out, we’re already sort of a remnant of glaciation, and our land is drying out in geological time. But now with

climate change, that is being accelerated and will be expressed most prominently in the area of forest fires. So I recognize that’s a real challenge. I know that there has been a lot of thinking that has taken into consideration climate change in the forestry strategy. So it will be interesting hearing how that is impacting our programs.

I am wondering if there’s a budget for implementing solar energy. I haven’t seen it. It must be there somewhere, but we have a new Solar Strategy. I think it’s a good one, a very progressive one and will be challenging to implement, but it will certainly take a dedicated budget.

I’d be very interested in the Minister’s thoughts in terms of protecting territorial waters, improving environmental stewardship and this sort of thing, given the present climate that we’ve got and the decimation of our environmental protection regime. I know the hope is we’re going to complete devolution and get resources to do that. I guess it’s not too early to start thinking about how. What is our strategy in putting together a recovery program and planning for the budget that it will, very obviously, take.

The recent conversation, I think we need to start recognizing that MVRMA, for example, if and when we take it over, it’s well known that it’s been underfunded from the start. I know the Minister is aware of that and many reviews have pointed to that. I would say, people in the Northwest Territories want that addressed. So what are we doing right now to get ready for that eventuality?

I have some concerns about the expansion of community-based water monitoring programs; not the community-based aspect of that, obviously. But we have aggressively expanded our water dollars. We’ve created a land and water department, I believe, division. I believe the last time I asked, something like 85 percent was being spent on the water, and here we are increasing it again and these are federal responsibilities. They’re not being carried out by the federal government, so I’m very happy to see us participating in this.

But I do, at the same time, hear the Minister talking about austerity and living within our means and so on. I am frequently faced with the impression that it’s within the Minister’s means rather than our means. So I would appreciate some detail there on what’s going on with that.

With barren ground caribou, we’re still way behind on that front. Well before I got into politics I was working in the area of environment and wildlife, and I saw a request for proposals – it crossed my desk – to design a Bathurst Caribou Management Plan. I don’t know how many years ago that was, but that was a long time ago and we still don’t have one. So we’re really behind the eight ball on that. We’ve got to get going on that. There are obvious problems. So I’m looking for the Minister to show where there

are obviously and clearly surpluses, that we will be providing all users with access to caribou now. I think it was very irresponsible that…(inaudible)…so I’d like some expression of how that’s going to be done in the near future.

Participation in the environmental assessment process, again that’s going to be challenging since there’s not a lot of processes left to be participating in. So we need to be considering that in our long-term planning.

We’ve talked about electronic waste programs implementation and so on. I’m looking forward to that, and I wouldn’t mind some details on that, or we can leave that to the detail. I’ll leave that to the Minister’s discretion.

That’s it for general comments. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Next I have Mr. Moses.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess the big focus for me, as most Members will probably know, is the situation we’re going through in Inuvik in the energy initiatives with finding a gas solution. Earlier today I had questions for the Minister of ENR here, talking about the $100,000 that he mentioned in his budget address to advance the LNG solution. Currently with our gas shortage, our community relying on synthetic gas, the synthetic gas storage in the community, which only lasts five days, and all the other concerns such as transportation on the highway. At times when the highway does shut down for possibly a week or so, and we don’t have the proper storage right now for that propane or mixture gas and it would affect a lot of residents and businesses. So I’m glad to see that there’s work being done in that area. I would like to get a little more information as we move forward, and keep apprised of the developments with what’s being in the discussions here.

Obviously, if we do find some energy initiatives that would lower the cost for residents in Inuvik, it would also offset possibly other costs in other departments: income support, possibly getting more human resources, jobs, things like that. So there’s a rippling effect into finding this solution for the gas shortage in Inuvik.

Also, continuing to look at biomass initiatives in the community and other communities, as well, in the Beaufort-Delta region. Something that has come by our desk is some of the work that the Arctic Energy Alliance has done specific to diesel communities, and some possible solutions since 15 percent of our residents in Inuvik also rely on diesel fuel, and also the government switching over. Finding solutions that would cut down the costs for residents, but also for the government in the long run, and looking at some of those studies that have

been done and possibly putting those into the works.

I’m going to keep my general comments short today, just to get into detail. Also, in terms of what happened last summer with the fire suppression and the big fires that happened in Inuvik, I’m glad to see that there are investments into the fire suppress. There’s $2.5 million that I think will prepare our suppression crews and our fire departments within ENR to adjust the issue and be ready.

The other big one here is the Wildlife Act. There’s a lot of hard work that’s been going into this. My discussions around the table with the working group members, with the beneficiaries, with Aboriginal groups that they see that the work that’s being done there, the consultations back and forth is something that they want to see become reality and get this bill passed.

Other than that, my main focus in ENR is finding some good energy initiatives not only for Inuvik but for the high-cost communities that rely on diesel and the coastal communities of the Beaufort-Delta region, and as we move forward, looking at some other solutions. Also the key activities that the Minister mentioned here, such as protecting territorial waters, mitigating and adapting to the climate change impacts, improving environmental stewardship, and collaborative work with the Aboriginal Governments. The work that’s being done in that area, I look forward to seeing, and listening to discussions, and hearing the updates and where we move from there.

Just a few general comments, Madam Chair. I look forward to this department continuing to work and looking to find solutions for Inuvik, as well as the community of Norman Wells that is kind of in the same solution that we’re in at the same time. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Moses. General comments. Mr. Bouchard.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have a couple of opening remarks and I think most of my questions will be in the detail. One of the first comments I have would be towards all the biomass initiatives that are currently in the budget. I’m pleased to see that.

I will have some questions later on about the forestry resource inventories and how much money we’re spending to do a baseline in the South Slave if we have a strong potential of a company setting up…(inaudible)…operation in the area. I’m just wondering if we’re continuing to reinvest in that to make sure that we know what the inventories in the South Slave are to feed that type of operation.

One of the other areas that I wanted to discuss today was that the Standing Committee on Economic Development and Infrastructure had

reviewed the hydraulic fracturing. Some of the things involved with that, and I think are involved with this department, are some baseline study work in the Sahtu area where there’s lots of oil and gas going on right now, and what the department is committing for some sort of baseline study to see what the current landscape is before all the development. If any kind of major oil and gas play happens in that area, we need to have some baseline studying, especially in the area of hydraulic fracturing, where I know some people are concerned.

Along the lines of hydraulic fracturing, I would like to know what the department is doing in conjunction with the NEB, National Energy Board, and how we as a committee have made some recommendations that there should be some regulations put in place before some hydraulic fracturing is happening. I’m just wondering. I would like to get some information on where the department is going with that and what kind of dollars they are committed to maybe giving to the concerns in the Sahtu towards hydraulic fracturing.

My last point is some of the dollars that the department is going to be spending. We’ve been informed that the department will be implementing the Wildlife Act later this year. I was just wondering what kind of dollars they are committing to this process, the second go around. Is it as heavy as the years before or are we kind of e expecting the water to be a little calmer and have we worked out some of the solutions? Those are my opening comments and I’ll have more questions in the detail. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. General comments. Next I have Mr. Nadli.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just reserved some of my questions for later on in the detail. For the most part, I am kind of encouraged by the movement to engage communities in terms of trying to at least advance the whole biomass initiative. I think it is a very good initiative that complements the realities of community life, especially small communities where jobs are very few and industry is not very actively present in the communities to provide businesses plus job opportunities. I think right now I understand it that there are discussions ongoing with several communities. Perhaps some of them are more advanced than other communities. I think it’s a very significant undertaking and I am very interested in terms of the progress and the success of the initiative. I’d like to ensure that the communities that I represent are fairly involved with that.

Other matters I feel strongly about are in terms of how we are trying to advance the transboundary water agreement with other jurisdictions in terms of the effect on the fish population or the aquatic

species or aquatic life. As you know, we live along the Mackenzie. We are fairly dependent on the river for travel, but also at the same time, a diet of fish is very prominent in terms of trying to supplement people’s diet in small communities.

In terms of wildlife, I have stated my points in terms of concerns about the woodland caribou populations: whether we have been closely monitoring them, the status of the population in terms of their rank of whether there are a species at risk. I am also interested in terms of the moose population. Of course, living again from Fort Providence, we try to supplement our diet with food from the land, and the moose is fairly prominent in Dene culture. We need to ensure that we have mitigative measures in place to ensure that we properly manage and ensure the success of the moose population.

I am, of course, curious in terms of the bison recovery plan for Fort Providence. As you know, last summer was a fairly traumatic event for the bison population, and I would like to know, in terms of the bison recovery plan, in terms of some of the steps that have been taken to try to put some measures in place to ensure that the bison population does recover. I’d like to, maybe later on, ask some questions.

Of course, energy initiatives, I think, in some respects with small communities there is optimism that things are complementing at least the communities plus the environment around them that we value is workable. It is hoped for at least the immediate future for business opportunities, at the same time for at least trying to be advanced, a collaborative effort that I have seen thus far with governments and communities. I would like to know in terms of just how it is that the Land Use Framework is helping out in terms of trying to at least get a semblance of various initiatives in terms of whether it be conservation, whether it be environmental management, regulatory regime, and all the land claims that are happening, helping whether this framework is supposed to at least put things in a logical sense so that at least strategic decisions on the environment are made. Those are just a few of my comments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Nadli. General comments. Next I have Mr. Dolynny.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I welcome the Minister and his delegation here. It is always a pleasure to have you back.

I have to commend the Minister here. A lot of change, I think, within the last year, and a lot of good doing. We are hearing a Wildlife Act is going to be going back on the road here. I think the general population is looking forward to commenting on that and, I think, hopefully finally putting to bed something that has been in the works

for many years. I applaud the stewardship behind that.

I don’t want to reinvent the wheel here with respect to what has been said. I just want to earmark a couple of areas that I noticed in the opening comments of the Minister and another couple that aren’t on here that aren’t somewhat reflected in the budget.

First and foremost, in no particular order of importance, is the CL-215s. There are aging fire suppression fleet. The Minister is very much aware that I have asked many questions in the House before regarding the age of our fleet, the viability of our fleet, and the future outlook in terms of what we are going to do when these planes become no longer of value, more or less along the lines of questioning the end of life. We have yet to see a plan of action. There is significant infrastructure investment. I think the people of the Northwest Territories, including Members of this House, would like to see the long-term strategy behind that.

I have to give credit where credit is due again. I think our Minister has made incredible progress, not only territorially but nationally – I think we can use the word internationally – in terms of his ideology behind transboundary water agreements and the stewardship behind that. Even in certain books now has the Minister’s name been mentioned in it. I applaud the Minister for his bigger vision, and sometimes, again, we don’t give credit where credit is due and I think that is very critical.

However, with that accolade of accomplishment, I do put some regressive caution that these negotiations have cost taxpayers a substantial amount of money over the years. It would be nice to see an end in sight. Where is that end? Yet, we don’t really see this in the budget; we see a continuance here. I think that the people of the Northwest Territories, although pleased with the direction and stewardship, I think need to see some closure moving forward.

Other areas where I didn’t see much mention in the budget is the gathering of baseline information, whether we are dealing with species at risk or looking at all of the effects of our wildlife and the monitoring, especially migration and adaptive behaviour. I’m hoping and encouraging the department to make the investments in creating good baselines in our future.

Not necessarily last on my list is how we deal with our energy use. As we heard from committee, and as you heard from some of the Members, reducing our use of fossil fuels needs to be more than just a slogan. It needs to be more than just a flavour of the day. We are hoping that the department leads in this capacity to provide meaningful and thought-provoking means to get people off fossil fuels. We have to look at those viable options. We have to make sure we put those necessary dollars so that,

whatever we are putting in, the return on our investment is extremely tangible and not, I guess, fictional.

The last thing I want to talk about is our environmental watching or stewardship or watchdog behaviour. We have a lot of ongoing projects in terms of waste management. We have a lot of change on the horizon with the transfer of powers through the devolution portfolio. I think a lot of people, as it was very plain and obvious through the public hearings with the recent Giant Mine Remediation Team, that people are concerned. The people around Yellowknife are gravely concerned, but the people of the Northwest Territories should be equally concerned. Water moves upstream or goes downstream, I should say, from the Yellowknife basin all the way down the Mackenzie all the way to the ocean. This is a big issue. I am hoping that the ongoing dialogue with the people in working with the remediation teams is one in which we’re going to see, again, more of a closure, more of a long-term thinking than the current cryogenic, I guess, solutions that have been proposed before us.

So last is, we’ve got a lot of activity in the Sahtu with the central Mackenzie oil and gas. We want to make sure that we are stewards, we want to make sure that during this transfer of devolution, we know ENR is going to be busy more than they probably ever have in the next couple of years. We need to make sure that we provide those levels of comfort for all residents in that area because, again, we do not want to have another Giant Mine issue.

So those are my opening comments, but there will be a couple of specifics. But again, some of these were covered in the opening address. Some of them may be new. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Any further general comments? Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Department of ENR is going to be challenged with some significant changes in the Northwest Territories if some of the proven resources in the Sahtu come to fruition. As indicated in his opening statement, they’re preparing for the increased oil and gas exploration development in the Sahtu, and one of our greatest resources that sustains us today is the water. The Minister indicated they are completing a transboundary negotiation water agreement with Alberta and, of course, Alberta is also ramping up and they’re looking at using water for hydroelectric energy, and the Alberta tar sands is also involved in their operations with the water. It all flows up to the Slave River and to the Great Slave Lake and down the Mackenzie River. We have the Norman Wells oilfields that have been in operation for some time. I wanted to ask the Minister about a hearing to the Sahtu land claim in

regard to keeping the quality of water as a priority in our government and that there’s not to be any alteration of the quality of water in our area of our settled land claims. There could be other areas or land claims that have that type of specific agreement that was negotiated.

So I’m going to ask the Minister about those areas where there is a high interest in the oil and gas, especially with the new technology in the North of fracking, and ensuring our people that our water is of the utmost, and the integrity of our water is kept in place. That we’re going to do everything within the means of this legislation so that the oil companies are kept on notice when they begin, and if they begin a fracking operation, that we’re going to be okay. In 50 years we’re still going to be okay, or even 75 years.

So I’m very interested in that type of work and that the government will be looking at to provide some comfort to the people of the significant environmental impacts that are going to happen with development, which could certainly change the Northwest Territories economic powerhouse in the North and how things will be looked at in the Northwest Territories in regard to the new interests of the oil and gas developments in the Sahtu region.

I’m very happy to see the Wildlife Act being put back on our tables, to have some discussion and look at how this Wildlife Act can be discussed where we would see a new Wildlife Act by the end of this session. We certainly came close to it in the 16th Assembly and I was heartbroken at not having

it passed at that time. This Wildlife Act is coming into play and it is very important to the people in the communities, people in the North and, specifically, people in the regions where they have Aboriginal and treaty rights. This Wildlife Act hasn’t been changed since I think I was in Grade 11 or 12 when they had the Wildlife Act, so there are lots of changes that have taken place since that time. I’m not that old, but I think that’s a significant amount of appreciation to the Minister for his patience and people who have made contributions all over the North to this Wildlife Act.

It’s very sensitive because how do we work together on it. People use the animals to feed themselves and look after themselves. So we had to be very patient and sometimes I’m not. Sometimes I just want to get these things done and we have to learn to work together and live together and educate each other. I think there’s enough will here, I hope there’s enough will that this Wildlife Act will come to the floor and we’ll vote on it so the department can get to work and modernize our Wildlife Act. I want to thank the Minister and staff for the due diligence that it had to do to get this piece of legislation through the discussions. It will

certainly be coming to our table for further discussion so we can see this being implemented.

The last point I want to make is with the energy initiatives. Certainly we saw a worst-case scenario happen in Norman Wells this past winter and I thank the governments for responding in a very professional and speedy way in the turn of events that happened. The situation of having their gas shut off and resources had to be put in place to ensure people and all safety mechanisms were going to be taken care of, such as evacuating if they had to and looking at other issues that the government was facing, especially with MACA and the Town of Norman Wells. I bring that up because the importance of an energy initiative in the Sahtu, especially for the town of Norman Wells, they had people go through some of that experience of the last 24 hours when they were going through that. So I look forward to some initiatives that could be out of this world, can be maybe thought of as thinking outside the box that we had some good discussions on. How can we reduce the carbon emissions?

Looking at ways that we can help our communities reduce the cost of living, and I think we’re going to have some discussion in that area. We talked about one far-out idea as to put woodstoves in people’s houses. That would do so much good. That’s such a unique concept that we could really help our people on many fronts. I hope the government is open to that type of suggestion. Our people in the Sahtu live off the land and I think a lot of people in the North like to go out and have that opportunity to take their children – it’s educational, the fresh air, get active – and if they had an opportunity to have a woodstove that would cut down on their diesel or their natural gas or whatever, they would use it. It would help a lot. So I look forward to those types of energy initiatives that ENR can look at in the future and have some discussion on that.

Those are all my comments for the Minister. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Any further general comments? Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It’s a great pleasure to provide a few opening comments to the Minister. I guess I would start off with this, although it’s been mentioned. I will be brief.

The department I think needs, from a forward thinking point of view, to develop a fracking strategy from the Environment and Natural Resources perspective. I know that as a Member on the Economic Development and Infrastructure committee, the environment issues are constantly brought up. We have to find ways to steward ourselves that balance the needs of infrastructure and development in the context of appreciation and respect for the environment. I would hope that this

would be on the agenda of the Department of Environment and Natural Resources.

Quite often we hear from our constituents about caribou and how important they are, the caribou survey and where it needs to be further developed by this department. I would hope the department would have something to say.

Madam Chair, you yourself, as well as I, have talked for a number of years from time to time about the tire shredder and how the department has some good initiatives on waste reduction. I think a tire shredder, we are certainly due for one in our infrastructure. We could send it up and down the Mackenzie into our communities. It doesn’t necessarily need to make the whole trip in one year, but it could make its way up and down the valley every couple of years. I bet we could even send it over to Nunavut and make a bit of money that way. It would help redirect some of the waste that could be sorted out.

I have said over the years, and I’m going to use this occasion to remind the Minister, we need a good strategy for e-waste in the Northwest Territories and I would certainly like some feedback on that. As well, I’ve often brought up the issue on batteries, whether they are car batteries or just general household batteries. It’s something that gets parked in the community dump, whether it’s Yellowknife, Hay River, Tsiigehtchic or wherever it is. What happens to these things? I don’t think we have a philosophy as to how we plan to deal with this. On a small program, we could talk about how we want to do something. I think here is a real initiative we can talk about and do something with.

The Minister has made more than a polemic argument as to why we should continue biomass. It’s very important. I am absolutely a supporter of biomass. I think it makes a lot of sense. Without sounding like a critic, it seems to be one of the things we do fantastic. It’s not to say we don’t do other things well, but it’s one of the things we do very, very well. It helps our energy. It’s a good type of stewardship.

But by the same token, I have concerns about solar energy. Without it being significantly subsidized, it just doesn’t make sense. Our solar energy does not deliver the same type of bang for the buck that we could get from biomass. That said, although I do appreciate the initiatives that have been done, if they had not been heavily subsidized, they would not be economic. So it’s funny when you say you super-subsidize something to make it economic, it kind of makes you wonder where the money is coming from and what it’s actually doing.

I will say the notation here in his opening remarks about baseline study in the Sahtu area, I think with the addition of an environmental protection officer, we need that type of work done. We can certainly see the tsunami of work that’s coming our way in

that region and I have no doubt that everyone in the Sahtu, from an economic point of view, are on the edge of their seats, saying we cannot wait to get to work. I’m sure they need the work. This will help further develop the region, but by the same token, as I said earlier, in the context of fracking, in that message that is, we also have to ensure we are good quality stewards of our resources. At that point, I should also give credit to Minister Ramsay who brought the Economic Development committee to Calgary. His department was very helpful in our study tour. I would say he may be tough in some perspectives, but Minister Ramsay does deserve credit for leading that initiative. Without that type of information, we wouldn’t help appreciate the stewardship we need to take in consideration going forward.

Madam Chair, today I tabled a couple of articles from the Northern Journal. By coincidence they were on the same page, and certainly they were talking about northern water and the quality of it. The present quality is good. Having said that, a relentless and robust program here to develop, monitor and manage our water is very important because once it’s bad, in my view, as a non-expert, it’s almost impossible to fix. It is the lifeblood of everything we need, so it’s got to be primary in our concerns. By the same token, I should remind everyone in this House and not just the public, Minister Miltenberger has led that crusade for many years. He needs to be patted on the back for his accomplishments

I happened to go down to the Alberta Legislature when he presented them with a motion in this House and talked about how important this relationship is. Getting along in the messaging, programming and developing policy with Alberta to ensure NWT waters are clean and safe for generations to come is critically important.

I didn’t necessarily want to spend too much time on the opening comments, but I did want to provide a little bit of feedback from my perspective. I’d say, overall, I am quite pleased with the department in the way they respond to my concerns as an individual MLA. I can’t speak for all MLAs in that regard, but I get a sense that the department does do good work. At times we may disagree with them, but they certainly do a yeoman’s job on perspectives that need to be raised and sometimes, at the end of the day, they’re different. I respect that.

Madam Chair, that’s all my comments at this particular time. I look forward to the detail as we proceed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. General comments. Next I have Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a few brief comments to make. First I will start with

biomass. I would like to thank the department, on behalf of Fort McPherson, for working with the community for the last year to start a new initiative in the community.

Also, hopefully we can build on that partnership over the next few years. As you know, the Gwich’in Settlement Area is the only area in the Northwest Territories that actually has a forest management plan. I’m really looking forward over the next few years to create that partnership and move forward.

The Arctic Energy Alliance, a lot of homeowners last year were very happy with the initiatives that were taken installing woodstoves. I know there is a huge interest of homeowners that would like to see that continue.

Under traditional knowledge, you have some funding set aside for communities to carry out some specific wildlife and forestry research. I am really happy with that and I hope we can carry that on over the next few years.

For now, those are the only comments I have. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Blake. General comments. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I guess a lot of area has been covered already by my colleagues. I guess one specific thing that impacts my constituents and the Dehcho First Nation is the recent approach to the Protected Areas Strategy. …(inaudible)…even stopping the process right now, so that raises some concerns. As well, Grand Chief Herb Norwegian was asking about Edehzhie, the Protected Areas Strategy and getting that process continued. I think that was one of the ones that have to be considered, Madam Chair.

Those are my particular comments right now, Madam Chair, with regard to the Protected Areas Strategy being slowed down or even stopped. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Any further general comments? No further general comments. I will ask the Minister if he would like to summarize a response to the Member’s general comments.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to thank my colleagues for their thoughtful comments and feedback. I would like to start by just trying to bring a number of pieces together here. There were questions and concerns raised about what’s happening to the environmental landscape around us with the changes at the federal level and what that means to us. What are we doing to fill in? How are we going to manage our affairs in spite of that?

At the same time, we are working on devolution to take over land, water and resource development.

Then there is the concern raised about transboundary waters, water in general and why we are spending money or that amount of money when we don’t have legal responsibility, which is a bit of a contradiction to the early concern. I would just like to say this: We are very close to devolution, looking at taking over land, water and resource development.

The 15th Assembly, when it comes to water, made a

decision and passed a unanimous motion in this House, saying that water was a fundamental human right. That motion was the basis for the 16th and 17th Assemblies to go forward and build the

Water Strategy, look at internal implementation of that climate in the territory and, at the same time, move towards negotiating the transboundary water agreements which were required to be done back in 1997, when we signed on to the Mackenzie River Basin Transboundary Master Agreement, and was never followed up on.

So what are we doing now to protect our interests and why are we spending so much money on water are two linked questions. We made a decision in the 15th Assembly, going on six, seven years ago

now, that has led to a significant investment in the development of the Water Strategy. It has led to our ability to develop a transboundary negotiating team that is at the table with Alberta. It has allowed us to build an exemplary community-based water monitoring system in the Northwest Territories that folks have told us they wanted to see so that they could have assurances that the water they were drinking was safe, and as the Member for Sahtu asked about the substantially unaltered language in the land claims.

So why did we do this if we had no legal responsibility? It has been clear for the last seven years that we are moving towards devolution, and we were operating on the political and moral authority of this Assembly and of the North to prepare itself and take over its responsibilities. And water, we were told by everybody in the Northwest Territories, was a fundamental issue that they wanted us to take care of.

The investment in water, we should be clear, is not going to stop. Once we negotiate agreements, there’s going to be a requirement to do ongoing monitoring. We’re going to have to be vigilant. We’re going to have to commit and invest the same way Mr. Bromley asked us how we’re going to offset the cuts and the changes and the downsizing the federal government is going through. Well, we are making investments that we think, as an Assembly and as a territory, are critical to the well-being of the Northwest Territories.

When we concluded transboundary negotiations with Alberta, we have to go then to BC and

Saskatchewan. Thirdly, we have to go back to the Yukon and renegotiate that one, because that one was done in 1997, and if you look at that agreement compared to the awareness of water now, and the complexities that people now recognize, it is a feel good bureaucratic agreement that has no substance. We have to redo that so we can, in fact, talk about the Peel Watershed as well.

We have to be prepared to continue to invest in those critical issues. I’m not here to defend the federal government whatsoever. We recognize that they’re making decisions that they think are in their best interests. As the Premier indicated, they didn’t consult with us, they didn’t ask us. We have to be prepared to live with that reality and protect our own interests. It’s those type of investments that are going to allow us to protect those interests.

As we approach devolution, I would suggest to you that if we hadn’t invested six or seven years of work in getting ready on water, people would be justifiably concerned if we were not ready, that our thinking wasn’t clear. If we hadn’t done all the work we’ve done on the Wildlife Act and all the other related issues with the species at risk, I would suggest to you, people would be saying, my goodness, our thinking is not really clear here and are we ready. I’m here to tell you that we’ve made those investments and we are ready.

We are going to continue to invest in those areas. There is money in the budget for solar. I’m just going to pick through some of the concerns. Within that context, I’d like to address some of these specific issues.

There was a concern raised about the Land Use and Sustainability Framework. What does that do and how will that help us? The Land Use and Sustainability Framework is a framing document that outlines our thinking as it pertains to land use in the Northwest Territories and what do we mean by sustainability. It captures the principles that are in the existing sustainability framework and it’s going to lay out, on a go-forward basis, what our thoughts are about land use planning, so that we can go now to the table and finalize the agreements with the Dehcho, for example. That framing document, that Land Use and Sustainability Framework captures and has within it some other subsidiary strategies: the Water Strategy, the Economic Development Strategy, the Mineral Resource Strategy and the Energy Strategy. All those are critical linked strategies guided by the principles of the Land Use and Sustainability Framework.

We need, as a government, to have our thinking clear. That is why we’re investing time and effort in all these different areas. It’s going to help us make the right decisions with the Dehcho. There are bilateral arrangements that have been set up with the Dehcho. The Protected Areas Strategy is not in

jeopardy. What we are doing is consolidating the work on the five candidate areas, on Edehzhie we are going to come to the table, or we are at the table with the Dehcho and we will reach an agreement. That is clear. We want to reach an agreement, as well, on the broader Land Use Plan. That commitment by the government is clear. So that work is underway.

As it pertains to the environmental assessment process and involvement and how we’re going to do that, we’re going to commit resources as we have them and as it is required. In the Sahtu, if it proves up, we know there will be greater impacts and we will collectively, as a Legislature and as a government, have to put our heads together to see how we manage those.

The budget for implementing solar comes through the Ministerial Energy Coordinating Committee. The Power Corporation is moving ahead with a commitment, for example, and we’re focusing on Colville. A small community where we’re going to look at solar, batteries and diesel, and how much penetration can we make with solar. We’re going to do one other community on top of that.

As it pertains to some of the other energy issues, the Member for Inuvik Boot Lake raised the concern about the gas situation. As a government, we’ve been looking seriously at liquid natural gas as an alternative. It has a small carbon footprint, a cheaper alternative, a better alternative than diesel. We’re looking not only at its application in Inuvik, but we believe there’s going to be a significant opportunity and application in other thermal communities like Liard and Simpson and Wrigley; all the ones that are accessible as we work our way north on the road system. We expect to be able to stand up in this House in the next couple weeks or so, as I mentioned to the Member today, to hopefully make some specific announcements about where that LNG work is taking us next.

We are also going to be standing up as we talk about energy in the other communities. We’ve talked about solar, there’s a commitment to biomass. With all due respect to Member Hawkins, solar does make sense. It’s been proven around the world. If you do it right, and I would suggest to you, if you looked at all the fixed costs tied to diesel, at the end of the day they are going to be very, very close and growing in favour of solar. The good thing about solar is the energy itself is free, and the technology is getting cheaper every day. Our ability to blend it with, like they do in Colville Lake, batteries and diesel, will allow us to increase our reliance on alternative energy, still have a backup, smooth out the relationship between solar and diesel, getting us to the smart group technology that would be applicable in every community in the Northwest Territories.

Madam Chair, our commitment to biomass is significant as a government. We have one of the best biomass strategies in the country, I believe, and we’re implementing it. Is there enough inventory to sustain the work? Yes, there is. We have to manage it properly. We have to work with the Aboriginal governments and the communities. We’re investing money in inventory work, forest management agreements in the South and North Slave, so that we can proceed with biomass. A pellet plant is being proposed. Our plan as a Legislature was always clear: Build the market and then you can build an industry. We have built the market and are continuing to build the market. Now we are working hard and we have a private investor, with all his own money, looking at building an industry that we believe will have, as Mr. Nadli pointed out, significant economic benefits to the communities that are going to be involved as equity partners, return on investment, employment opportunities. All those good things are going to be there. So we are very committed to that.

The issue of fracking, there are guidelines. We anticipate we are going to have guidelines by this coming fall. We have been working with the committees, the Minister of ITI and myself, the appropriate deputies committee. Cabinet has put out instructions. There is work being done and there are guidelines. Our job is to make sure, as has been pointed out around this table, that we have this balance between protecting the environment and economic development; in this case, hydraulic fracturing. That work, committee has been briefed on and they will continue to be briefed on as we move forward. We anticipate that we will be able to come to an agreement on a way to manage this one.

Energy use, replace fossil fuels is more than just a slogan. I made a note of that; that was Mr. Dolynny. I think, from the amount of money we spend and actual work on the ground, we can demonstrate that we are leading the country in some areas in terms of replacing fossil fuels and we are continuing to do that in increasingly progressive ways.

The baseline information that we need to gather, we are focusing in the Sahtu. We have $200,000 in the budget. We are going to leverage that, working with this environmental study and research fund that is funded by industry that is going to allow us to put hundreds more or thousands of dollars to work in the Sahtu to focus on a baseline information on groundwater, surface water and wildlife concerns raised by the people of the Sahtu through their Sahtu Land and Water Board. We have committed to working with the federal government, National Energy Board and all the appropriate groups and governments in the Sahtu to get that work done.

The Wildlife Act is a culmination of nearly a decade of work that is coming up. It will come into this

House probably in early March for us to give first and second reading to, so that committee can then decide the extent of their consultation that they think is necessary and be able to report that bill back to this House if not in the May-June session, then in the fall session. Then we can have the very great pleasure, I am hoping, of voting on third reading that will put in place, once again I think, a very progressive piece of legislation that has set the bar not only for content but how that legislation was drafted in partnership with multiple hands on the pen with the Aboriginal governments and the territorial government, same as we did with the Species at Risk Act.

If you give me one second, I want to make sure I cover as much of this as I can.

The issue about caribou, we have about $1 million in the budget. There is another $400,000 that they are using for biophysical work. We put that money into the base a number of years ago, when we realized very clearly that we can’t just be doing surveys on an ad hoc basis, that we needed to commit, especially when we had the Bathurst crash and all the other herds in distress. So that money is in the budget and it is there for that very reason, that we can monitor that. What we are working towards over time is a system – with all credit being given to the Porcupine Caribou Management Board – that they have come to that sets predetermined triggers in terms of herd numbers and if the numbers, hit a certain level, certain actions are taken. There is no surprise. There is no debate. There is no politics. It is just based on the Aboriginal governments and all of the territorial government and all the folks on the board coming up with a good, smart, knowledge-based decision. I think that is what we have to work for across the territory.

As it pertains to the resident harvest in the North and South Slave, there is, and I have indicated this previously, we are doing the work, both as it relates to the Bluenose-East and Ahiak Beverly, to work through the appropriate processes so that we will hopefully be in a situation of reinstating resident harvest by the time the fall season rolls around in 2013, so that we can all benefit from the sacrifices we have collectively made to try to rebuild the herd numbers. That will be addressed as well.

I apologize if I missed anybody’s specific concerns, but I do thank you for the comments. I look forward to the detailed discussion.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. What is the wish of the committee?

Thank you. I would like to turn the committee’s attention to page 13-7. We will defer that after consideration of the activity summaries. We will move on to page 13-8,

Environment and Natural Resources, information item, infrastructure investment summary. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do apologize to the Member. It was raised by at least two or three Members, both the tire shredder and the electronic waste.

What I will tell you is that our next priority on our recycling list is the electronic waste. That arrangement will be with Alberta. We have to sort out the particulars, but basically we are going to make arrangements to collect our electronic waste and hopefully be able to negotiate an agreement to use the fairly large facilities that they have in Alberta to have that waste recycled. That’s the next priority.

There has been some work done on tire shredders. It is not because they are not all equally important, but we have a list and we have capacity issues. Paper waste and tire shredders are probably next on our list, along with the issue with drums now that the oil companies are not taking them back. We know that there are probably tens of thousands of them scattered across the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am actually appreciative that the Minister mentioned drums. I think at one time I suggested putting a finder’s fee on that. I’m sure I’m not the only one that has mentioned that over the years about a finder’s fee on those drums, whether they are worth $50 or $100. When people travel out on the land, they can throw them in whatever. They can take a boat, whether it is a truck or a plane, they can throw a few in and certainly they can supplement some of the gas they need to get out there.

That said, the Minister had mentioned next on the list, as always, when do we think that this will be a priority that we’ll be seeing and the investment required in a timing sense. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, we are concluding the front-end work on the electronic waste piece and we are going to be moving to

implementation. I would suggest in 2014-15, we probably would be making reference to that where there would be some initial preliminary work at the planning level, but the focus for the next year or year and a half is going to be to get the work done on the electronic waste off from paper into reality. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I don’t really have any more questions on this page, but I did want to make it clear that it is not that I am against solar energy. It is just that I think it is the least practical of them considering the infrastructure costs. That said, I do also agree with the Minister’s point, which is that technology is getting cheaper all the time, but my view is, and I still maintain let’s do the things we do very well and biomass is certainly a hallmark of quality work with good benefits at a great price. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. We will treat that as a comment.

Committee, I will direct your attention back to page 13-8, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, infrastructure investment summary. Any questions?

Thank you. Page 13-9, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, revenue summary. Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I see a drop there of a couple hundred thousand dollars in the Environment Fund net revenue. Perhaps the money has been put into the e-waste program or something. Could I get an explanation why the drop in revenue there?

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That number is a projection based on a three-year average. It may potentially change, but it’s just based on a three-year average. Thank you.

I didn’t excel in math, but two years are reported here and both years are about $450,000. So I’m not totally clear on where the Minister is coming from here. Thank you.

That average is based on actuals. On this page, the only actuals we see are 2011-2012. So there are two other years of actuals but the actual number isn’t listed. All we’ve listed here are the mains and revised estimates. Thank you.

I’m still not sure I see the numbers there, but it looks like we’ve got quite a reduction in revenue from the last year that we had an actual, which was the year before the current fiscal year. We are just about at the end of this fiscal year and a revised estimate of $450,000… I

will leave it at that so we can move on. It seems curious. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Page 13-9, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, revenue summary. Any questions?

Thank you, committee. Moving on to 13-10, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, active position summary. Any questions? Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just under the Beaufort-Delta indeterminate part-time positions, over the next couple of months we’re going to have a facility in Tsiigehtchic. I was going to ask the Minister if he could make that a full-time position. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Blake. Mr. Campbell.

Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Page 13-10, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, active position summary. Any questions?

Page 13-13, which also would encompass 13-12, Environment and Natural Resources, activity summary, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, $11.492 million. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just in terms of details of travel, there’s an extra $100,000 in other expenses. Can I get clarification of that?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. For that we will go to Ms. Magrum.

So it’s in anticipation of planned extra travel in the new fiscal year, then, is it?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, plus the Sahtu travel budget

was almost nonexistent and it was always funded from taking from other pots. So the folks there didn’t have a lot of ability to do the work they needed to do. So between that and anticipated increased demand because of the oil play is the answer. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Menicoche.

No, thank you very much. That clarifies my question.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Committee, we are on page 13-13, Environment and Natural Resources, activity summary, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, $11.492 million. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. Page 13-14, Environment and Natural Resources, activity summary, corporate management, grants and contributions, contributions, $370,000. Committee agree?

Thank you, committee. Page 13-15, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, corporate management, active positions. Any questions?

Page 13-16 including 13-17, Environment and Natural Resources, activity summary, environment, operations expenditure summary, $6.968 million. Committee agree? Ms. Bisaro.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I was really pleased to hear that e-waste is next on the recycling list. I am glad that’s what the department is looking at next. I hope it’s sooner rather than later.

I wanted to ask a question with regard to waste sites in the NWT. I know it’s being dealt with through devolution negotiations, but I’d like to know from the Minister whether or not he feels comfortable, his department feels comfortable, that we are cataloguing all the waste sites we have in our territory in advance of devolution. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are confident that we have quite a comprehensive list. We have built into all our discussion the recognition that there’s always a possibility that something has been missed, but we have, over the years, catalogued quite extensively across the North, the many hundreds of various waste sites. Thank you.

To the Minister, if there are sites following devolution that have not been catalogued, what’s the recourse for us as a government? If it’s a site that was on federal land when it was developed and it’s been left behind and remediation is required, do we have any recourse with the federal government for funding or do we have to eat that ourselves? Thank you.

In that particular chapter, there is a recognition and an opportunity that should there be heretofore undiscovered waste sites, there’s an opportunity for the parties to get back to the table to discuss the fate of that particular waste site. Thank you.

Thanks to the Minister for that. It’s an area that is fraught with possible large dollars having to be spent, so I’m really glad to hear that there is an opportunity for us to go back and talk to the feds again if we discover some sites.

I apologize if I missed it, but I do have a concern with fracturing and it’s been talked about, not necessarily today but other times. I didn’t hear the Minister talk about it in his reply so I apologize if it’s been dealt with already. From the perspective of ENR and looking after the environment, what steps is this department taking to ensure that if we do get into fracturing, we are well versed in what we are taking on and we minimize the risks to our environment? Thank you

As a government, we are cognitively working with all the appropriate departments, including ENR and ITI, the National Energy Board, industry and the folks in the Sahtu, to work on guidelines. We’ve briefed committee and Minister Ramsay has taken the Members around to see sites down south. We’ve been working on guidelines and there is work underway. We anticipate them by this fall. We will be able to put guidelines on the table for discussion that would lay out what we think is the most appropriate way forward as it pertains to hydraulic fracturing. Thank you.

Thanks to the Minister for that; it gives me some comfort. I have read some articles over the last year or so that reference oil companies not wanting to disclose the elements, the contents of the fluid that they’re using. In terms of the guidelines that the Minister is referencing, two things: Will they be public so that people can see what it is we’re considering and provide some input into it? Secondly, will the guidelines reference the contents of the fracturing fluid and minimize the cost to our environment? I gather some fluids are really toxic. Thank you.

Yes, as we come forward with the guidelines, they will be public. We are looking at best practices across the land, and full disclosure of fracking contents is one of those very critical issues so that there is

awareness and understanding. As we try to manage the balance, between the environment and resource development, we have to know those critical factors. So as the guidelines go forward, that has been identified across the land as one of the best practices that jurisdictions are putting into place, and we are wanting to learn from other jurisdictions in terms of best practices. Thank you.

Thanks to the Minister. I appreciate the information. I have no further questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Moving on with questions on this page I have Mr. Nadli.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one question. Further down the line I’ll probably have more. Before I lose my thought on it, I wanted to ask in terms of the Land Use Framework. I know the Minister had stated that it could be, in some respects, used as a guide for policy guidelines in terms of how the government operates, especially in terms of trying to work cooperatively with the regions that are developing land use plans. I just wanted to understand how it is that this could be helpful in terms of trying to at least…(inaudible)…regions to ensure that there is common ground in trying to be consistent with initiatives on both sides, especially from government and First Nations. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I referenced initially in my comments responding to the opening comments, this Land Use Sustainability Framework is the government’s thinking, and it’s a framework that captures how we want to deal with the broad issue of land use and the sustainability principles that have been a cornerstone and bedrock of this government’s approach to resource development and just in general our relationship to the land, the water and the animals. Within that framework there are other subsidiary frameworks that are being worked on, strategies. Minister Ramsay referenced one today: the Economic Development Strategy. There’s the Mineral Strategy, the Water Strategy, the Energy Strategy. They’re all linked in here to make sure we’re consistent with those fundamental principles and elements of what we see as critical when it comes to land use and that issue of sustainability.

So when we now talk to the Aboriginal governments about their land use plans, for example, the complaint out of the Dehcho has always been the territorial government’s thinking isn’t clear, we just sort of mill around, we follow the federal government, we never make a decision, all these types of things. It wounded us sorely to be characterized that way. We applied ourselves to

getting our thinking clear on this, and this is what that work will give us and it will allow us to, I believe, conclude the Dehcho Land Use Plan and will allow us to be more effective at the table as we deal with all the other regions when it comes to land use planning. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Nadli. Moving on with questions I have Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My thinking is in line with many of the comments that have been brought up. Certainly on the fracking side of things I guess I would like to note that we did learn a lot on the trip that ITI sponsored for committee. Unfortunately, despite being shepherded about by industry, none of this committee, to my knowledge, has ever visited a frack site. So we still have a tremendous amount to learn.

I would say what we do know is that there is some very, very nasty stuff that routinely is both put into the ground and much more very, very nasty stuff is brought up from the ground. The issues happen, of course, when those enter our water or the air we breathe, the food we eat and these sorts of things. Many jurisdictions are just now, after some period of time, employing the fracturing technique – in fact, the very individual who invented fracturing has experienced this – are now recognizing major health costs to their families, to their water, to their livestock, to their municipal water supply and so on. These impacts are sometimes from the water, they’re also from volatile organic compounds that are emitted in gaseous forms, and they’re also from the very highly toxic elements that come out in the process of flaring. These are all, obviously, very rich areas for the department to play a regulatory role, and we want to know that that is happening. In fact, I think we’ve learned so much, but there’s still so much more to learn, both by committee and by Cabinet, I’m sure, and I know you’re on the road there.

I guess I’ll leave that as a comment, noting that certainly many jurisdictions have now decided to disallow fracking, and in fact that number is increasing across the globe in some jurisdictions, right down to community-sized jurisdictions. Obviously, it’s a very serious thing out there. The issue of seismic events, what most of us call earthquakes, being caused by fracking, there’s a report just out for northeastern BC where it’s been demonstrated to cause many, many of their seismic events. Of course, that’s fracturing of rock.

The practice now, a standard price, is to put water down into the ground and trust it’s going to stay there. This is very, very toxic water after it’s been used, and trust it’s going to stay secluded down there. But then when all these earthquakes start happening, that fractures rock and allows that water to migrate away and so on, and cause problems if it

gets into the groundwater and the source of our drinking water.

Another issue on the water that I would appreciate the Minister looking into – and I know he’s into water – is the fact that we are totally, in huge quantities – we’re talking trillions of gallons now – taking water from the surface, from the aqua sphere, if you will, the biosphere, the water cycle, and permanently removing it from that cycle and storing it away so it will never participate in that cycle again within the lifespan of our species. This is pretty serious stuff.

It is particularly serious here for a couple of reasons. First of all, we are sort of at the leading edge of climate change. Climate change is being expressed most severely towards the poles. One of the expressions is, despite higher precipitation relative to our current, we have more evaporation. So we are drying out. That is partly a natural phenomenon as a result of the receding glaciers still, but it is unfortunately being accelerated severely. This is becoming an issue in many parts of the world: desertification related to climate change. We are very vulnerable to that.

This is the second point: our water is fossil water. We don’t have renewable water. The tropics have renewable water because they get deluges there. Even the east and west coasts, they have all kinds of renewable water there. We don’t have that. Ours is fossil water. We use it; it’s gone. It’s not getting replaced. In a region, the scale of activities and removal of water is important. That is proving to be one of the major issues that are just starting to come to the front now. I’m looking forward to seeing the department’s work in that area.

Certainly the Arctic Energy Alliance is an area that I am interested in that we rely on to provide many of our services, particularly in the way of energy expenditures and so on, the energy subsidies and incentives is the word I’m looking for. I am disappointed to see that we are decreasing our Business Support Program when businesses across the Territories… This year, I believe the GNWT is spending close to $1 million in new electricity bills because of the 7 percent increase. This is happening across the Northwest Territories. Our businesses, our residents are experiencing this. We just pull it out of our pocket. No problem, okay, we will put $1 million into that. This is happening every year for the next three or four years of this. Our businesses have to put up with this. How are they going to make it out there? No wonder they are hollering about cost of living.

Here we had a modest $200,000 fund. I don’t believe that we had full uptake on this fund. This was, I think if they had put in $40,000, they got a $10,000 benefit. We have this issue in many places. People are so strapped with the cost of living in our communities, and businesses, that they

don’t have those upfront dollars. Rather than removing the support to businesses, a key part of our Economic Development Strategy, let’s come up with a model to use that money in a way that fits with the challenges our businesses are being faced with.

I guess I do have a few more points, but maybe I can get any response the Minister would care to offer at this moment in time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regard to the fracking and the comments from the Member, the Member is correct. This is a procedure that there are risks. There is no doubt. The work we are undertaking is to see how we can achieve that balance, if we intend to proceed, between the fracking and the protection of the environment. How do we do that? We know that there are chemicals. We are going to come out with the guidelines. We are going to be working with committee. We are going to have to collectively come to grips with this. By the fall, we hope to be able to do that.

In regard to our water being fossil water, absolutely. There is a chunk of the water in the Northwest Territories that is fossil water, but we also get 70 or 80 percent of the flow that comes from the Slave, which is the confluence of the Peace and the Athabasca with the headwaters of both in the Rocky Mountains. The headwaters in Athabasca are in Alberta. The headwaters of the Peace are in BC. In addition, we have the Liard, which has headwaters in the Yukon, and then we have the Hay River and the Chinchaga and all these other ones, minor subsidiary rivers. Up north we have the Peel that comes to us out of the Yukon. We have some areas where fossil water… The Member is correct, but the hydrological cycle is the winter, the freezing, the rain, the evaporation. But we have some very major rivers that are constantly flowing through our territory with water that is part of that hydrological cycle as the snow melts and the glaciers melt in the mountains.

In regard to the decreasing business support, I will ask the deputy minister to show where we moved that money to and it hasn’t been cut. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Campbell.

Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Bromley, your time is up. I am just going to let questions come around the first round and I will come back to you. Mr. Moses.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions are going to continue on with the Inuvik gas situation and $100,000 that will be provided to finding an advancement of this liquid natural gas, LNG. I just want to ask the Minister if he feels that the $100,000 that has been allocated to advancing it, if it will be sufficient enough to have an impact on the gas costs and the advance of the residential business and government side of demand on the fuel source.

Thank you, Mr. Moses. Minister Miltenberger.

Mr. Chair, the intent of the $100,000 is to allow work to be done, options to be explored. It is not money that is there to actually look at… That money is not targeted at this point for any type of implementation. When we are in a position to stand up and announce formal arrangements, should we be able to do that with liquid natural gas, then we will be making different decisions. There is going to be maybe a different process separate from the money that is here. The Power Corporation, for example, is the lead on the liquid natural gas as it pertains to the generation of electricity.

If we can come to the agreements that we believe are possible, then we are of the opinion that we will be able to put liquid natural gas into Inuvik for the provision of electricity and then, at the same time, have those continued discussions with the community for the rest of the system. That will be a separate process. This $100,000 was just there, because when this dollar figure was put in we were still doing the work and had to come to a lot of determination as to what the next steps will be. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, just a quick follow-up question to this one here. To go ahead with the work and the options, should we come up with a viable option or solution within a short time frame, something that would be effective for the residents, the businesses and government side of things, would the department be coming back to the House with possibly some supplementary appropriations? Would that be an option to see that we do have this LNG supplied to Inuvik, should the results be positive? Would he be willing to come back with a supplementary appropriation to deal with this situation in Inuvik? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, let me speak specifically to the Power Corporation and the issue of the electricity. Should we be able to finalize the arrangements for liquid natural gas, that will be an all-in cost per gigajoule that we are of the opinion if things hold constant with what we know so far, it will be significantly cheaper than what is currently available in Inuvik right now. That will be funded through that price per gigajoule that we would sell the product for and we’d capture any capital expenditures that would be required to ready the…mainly dealing with storage. The Power Corporation in Inuvik is gas-ready with the generators that are there. So that would be taken care of that way.

The details surrounding the arrangement with the town for the heat side would have to be further concluded. I’m not in a position to speak to that piece with any certainty yet. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. It appears we’ve exhausted the first round of questioning. We’ll go back to Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I did want to cover a couple more areas here. First of all in the area of electronics implementation, electronics recycling implementation planned for this year, it sounds like we have an agreement with Alberta. How is this going to work and what parts of the territory would that cover? Would we start with sort of the large regional centres? Where are we at with this? Was there a fee to recycle, a plan for recycling electronics, or is this an economic proposition that we’ll actually make dollars from this? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have built a recycling system now that enables us to go to every community in the North. The hope is we can build on that capacity that is there. We want to prevent, as I pointed out in Fort Smith, we have a mountain of computers at the waste site at our dump, they haven’t stuck into the waste site. I’m sure that situation is repeated across the North. So the intent is to work out the details of how we can bring that electronic waste to the regional centres that are now doing the recycling and work out ways from there with trucks to send them back.

We have to work out the costs with Alberta, we haven’t finalized those arrangements yet, and the idea of the surcharge on electronics to help, like we have on tires at $5 a tire cost, I believe is what we have now, that’s another thing being considered. Once we’ve finalized the costs, the revenues and expenditures that are going to be involved in this process, as we sort it out with Alberta and look at the cost to move this out of our territory.

The other figure where we’re working on to capture is one that Mr. Bromley has often brought up, and that’s the full cost accounting where we have to be able to put a dollar figure on it, and if we don’t do anything and we just load all this stuff into the waste sites, how fast will that shorten the life of our waste sites and what cost is there to that. So at the end of the day, I believe we’ll be able to show a full cost accounting that this is an initiative that should go forward. I don’t have a lot of the specific detail the Member would like at this point, but in the coming weeks we’ll be able to provide that to committee. Thank you.

It will be really great to see this get off the ground. We’ve been looking at it for some time. I’m happy that real progress is being made here.

My last one on the recycling aspect is, I still have people coming to me and really saying, you know, why will Cabinet not put down the price that they have to pay for milk containers in relation to what they get back. We do not want to raise the price of milk and this Minister has insisted on doing that. This obviously goes against our greater government goals of helping people and so on. Milk and the equivalent soy products are known to be really, really important to the health of our people and our children growing up. Will the Minister now move to adjust the milk container deposits so that people are getting back the same amount that they pay and there’s no net increase to the cost of milk for our people? Mahsi.

I’ll commit to give it a serious relook. It’s been a number of years and I know the Member has been a passionate advocate of that particular issue. So I’ll take another look, now that we’ve had some time to look at the costs and the money that’s available, and I’ll report back to committee. Thank you.

Much appreciated and I’m sure my passion is a reflection of what I’m hearing.

I’d like to move now to a question that’s come up before and the Minister is aware of this. In terms of the Solar Strategy, NTPC has a standby charge that completely destroys the economic feasibility of solar, unless you own the facility, solar installations that are 10 kilowatts or greater. I know the Minister is aware of this, but are we going to fix that this year? Is that considered to be part of the work plan for this budget? Mahsi.

The Member points to a broad issue of we’re the government and the only shareholder of the Power Corporation. On one hand, as a government, we set up a Solar Strategy, for example; and on the other hand, we have our utility that we own and seem to be working at cross-purposes with the successful implementation of that strategy. So, yes, we are going to fix that.

We’re going to look at net billing and net metering, and we’re going to look at the standby fees, and we’re going to make sure that these bodies that are working on behalf of the government and the people are coordinated and not at cross-purposes. Thank you.

Thank you once again for that commitment from the Minister. I think it has been very frustrating as far away as Sachs Harbour where energy is so costly and people have taken action there and then found out after things were in place that they couldn’t afford to do it, to literally hook it up. So the facility sits there.

I’d like now to turn to our general renewable energy, energy efficiency programs. It’s no surprise to this Minister or this government that committee has wanted to see a major effort and expenditure in the energy area. We see huge opportunities for addressing many, again, of our highest priority government goals, and that’s reducing the cost of living, developing especially our local economies and the environmental aspects that we can get with these sorts of projects. In just about every case, and I’m not aware of any failures where we’ve lost money and not had these sorts of benefits and the Minister is right, we have been one of the jurisdictions leading the way in many ways, but it’s a no-brainer. Why shouldn’t we when we’re getting all these benefits from it?

At the other time, we’re also very much aware of the tens of millions of dollars that we’re spending this year in subsidy of fossil fuels. Again, this just doesn’t make sense and we’ve been talking about this for a long time. So I’ve pushed, and I know many of my colleagues have pushed, let’s get back to cranking up our expenditures in this area and enjoy those benefits. There are some areas out there that can provide very good feedback, and specifically and very quickly I’d like to mention the area of replacing hot water heaters, electric hot water heaters in thermal communities with fuel heaters. These electric hot water heaters are the single most expensive use of electricity of anything. They typically use 450 kilowatts per year. Several programs have tried to encourage homeowners to switch, but with limited success. Again, it’s this frontend expenditure that I’ve talked about. Two main barriers seem to be the high capital cost of an oil-fired hot water heater and the technical challenges of installing one. Just the benefits of a diesel-fired hot water heater, replacing an electrical one in a thermal community would have a net reduction of 780 litres. So 1,000 hot water heaters, 2,000 tons of greenhouse gases. It would save GNWT over half a million dollars and homeowners over a million dollars.

So, Mr. Chair, on the basis of all this I would like to propose the consideration of my colleagues on this motion. May I read the motion?

Yes, Mr. Bromley. If you just want a second, we’ll circulate this motion.