This is page numbers 4103 - 4182 of the Hansard for the 18th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was going.

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Louis Sebert

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. To my right is Mark Aitken, assistant deputy minister, Attorney General branch of Justice. To his right is Mike Reddy, director, Legislation Division, Justice, and to my left is Sandy Kalgutkar, deputy secretary to the Financial Management Board, Finance. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Daniel McNeely

Thank you. I will now open the floor to general comments on Bill 6, Cannabis Legislation and Regulation Implement Act. First on the list, we have Mr. Vanthuyne.

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Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, yesterday, I spoke about my support for the seven substantive policy recommendations designed by the joint standing committee to improve the government's planning and program development related to the legalization of cannabis. Today, I would like to speak more specifically about the content of Bill 6.

First, I want to start by recognizing that the short and demanding time frame for development of this bill was set by the federal government and was not ideal. I appreciate the work that my Cabinet colleagues have done to get legislation before us prior to the federal legalization date, to ensure that we do not get stuck with the default federal framework.

With that said, however, as I suggested yesterday, I feel that the GNWT could have done more to develop a bill that meets the needs of Northerners, while also preparing for legalization.

In my Member's statement at the beginning of this sitting, I voiced my concern that this government is not doing enough to assist Northerners by supporting employment initiatives and economic development opportunities and those designed to lower the cost of living. As I mentioned, we have seen: power rate increases equating to near 40 per cent over the last seven years, the latest increase coming tomorrow, by the way; new airport taxes which increased the cost of everything through airport transport; increased land lease fees up to 300 per cent; increased medical service fees; increased Deh Cho Bridge tolls; and coming soon, a land transfer tax and an NWT carbon tax, which will be on top of Alberta's carbon tax that we already pay on goods and services from the south.

In this context, and recognizing that the GNWT loses approximately $30,000 in federal transfer payments for every resident that leaves the Northwest Territories in search of employment elsewhere, you would think that the GNWT would welcome legalization of cannabis for the employment and economic development potential it brings to the NWT. Instead, we have, in Bill 6, a proposal that would see the GNWT retain a large portion of the revenues that will flow from the sale of cannabis, except for those that go to a select group of business people currently already selling alcohol on commission from the GNWT through seven liquor stores in six communities.

I am deeply disappointed that Bill 6 does little to acknowledge or capitalize on the job creation and economic development opportunities that cannabis legalization brings. The liquor store model, which the government has made a policy decision to implement, shuts out those who want to be a part of this business opportunity at the outset.

As well, Bill 6 does not consider the regulation of establishments allowing for the consumption of cannabis, sometimes referred to as "cannabis cafes." For this reason, the standing committees could not even contemplate amending the bill to allow for such establishments.

I can only hope that economic development will be given much higher priority when the Legislative Assembly reviews this legislation during the 19th Assembly, a requirement, I might add, that was included in Bill 6 as an amendment put forward by the joint committee and supported by the Minister during Monday's public clause-by-clause review.

Speaking of the clause-by-clause review, I want to point out, for the benefit of members of the public who might be listening, that the committees moved 22 motions to amend the bill at the meeting. Of those, nine were motions developed by government to address deficiencies in the bill.

While government may occasionally ask standing committees to put forward a motion to correct an oversight or drafting error in a bill, it is not common to see so many changes, or ones as substantive as some of these. For example, the motion to amend the bill to give the GNWT regulation-making authority over cultivation, or the motions to create new sections addressing transitional rules for cannabis cultivation and smoking in rental properties and condominium corporations.

These are significant changes to the bill that the public did not have the opportunity to be consulted on, because the GNWT failed to conceive of their need when Bill 6 was developed. The fact that even the government found it necessary to make significant changes to the original bill suggests to me that the joint committee has all the more reason to make further important amendments to improve Bill 6, which brings me to my final point as I conclude my general comments, Mr. Chair.

Of the 22 motions moved by the joint committee at the clause-by-clause review, there were two that were carried by the committees, but which the Minister declined to concur with. I understand that these motions will be moved during today's proceedings, and I will have further comments at that time.

Those are my comments. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Daniel McNeely

Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Would the Minister like to respond?

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Louis Sebert

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Like much of our legislation, what we have before us is a compromise worked out with Members in this Chamber.

It is quite right that we were put under pressure by the federal government when they announced that they were going to move ahead on their promise made during the election to change the criminalization of cannabis. It was an election promise, but I think we were a little surprised when it came forward as early as it did.

This did put pressures on this jurisdiction, and in fact, all jurisdictions, to respond and bring forth legislation that dealt with the areas that we would be concerned with. I believe what we have brought forward is suitable to the Northwest Territories. We looked at many things. We looked at other legislation. We certainly listened to the observations and concerns expressed by committees. Our officials went out. There was public engagement, and I believe there were over a thousand online submissions, so there were many opinions out there, including some that felt that cannabis should not be legalized in the first place, but, of course, that was a federal government decision.

So, yes, this bill, Bill 6, is a compromise, but we feel it's a reasonable compromise in the circumstances. Again, we were under a time pressure. We have responded. We have consulted with the public and the Members in this Chamber. Again, I believe that Bill 6 is the appropriate legislation. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Next on the list, we have Mr. Beaulieu.

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Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just speaking in general terms about the bill, I found it interesting that, when we went around and did our tour, in general, we heard some mixed opinions on whether or not cannabis should be introduced, legal cannabis should be introduced, into the small communities. Essentially, all of the larger communities will have liquor stores, and there will be cannabis, legal cannabis, sold in the stores, in the liquor stores. In general, my feeling is that the government is introducing legal pot into some communities and is refusing to introduce legal pot into other communities, therefore keeping the door open for illegal pot or illegal cannabis in small communities.

What I feel that we are asking by making a motion, I guess which we are going to discuss today, was to ask the government to open it up to everyone equally. At this point, the government has essentially set up a two-tiered system, one for larger communities that already have liquor stores, and then, for smaller communities, they are left to their own devices to how they are going to bring legal pot into their communities. That's one alternative. The other alternative would be continue with the consumption of illegal pot.

I can't understand why the government would want to paint themselves into that corner, and I don't know why.

It seemed like, when we went out, when we were asked to take the bill on the road, for the most part, people felt that they should be treated equally. All people in the territories felt that they should be treated equally, that opportunities to go down a couple of blocks and purchase legal pot should be available to everyone. I can't believe that people would be so ignorant as to believe that by preventing a marijuana store in a community will prevent people from smoking marijuana. That is unbelievable to me.

Marijuana has been in the Northwest Territories, I think, since the 1960s, a long, long time, and many people smoke marijuana in the territories and across this country. That is why it's becoming legal. We have heard from the experts that there is no one in prison because of smoking marijuana; there is no one dying from smoking marijuana.

When the government introduced alcohol to the Northwest Territories, when the government allowed people, Dene people, to drink alcohol, it was just done because the government was making a lot of money off it. Initially, the bootleggers were making a lot of money off it, so the government introduced alcohol, and I am not glad there's not alcohol in all of the communities, mind you, but marijuana is a different kind of drug.

People don't smoke marijuana and then go out and commit heinous crimes, and that's a fact, and I don't think anybody could dispute that, not in here or anywhere, so I find it very unusual that the government takes a position to introduce marijuana to certain communities only, and so, if you're in a fly-in community, maybe it's going to cost you five, six, seven, or eight hundred dollars to get to a marijuana store if you want to purchase legal pot, in addition to the cost of the pot.

I believe that the actions of this government are going to only increase the sale of illegal pot. There is no way that individuals -- and, as I have said many times in the House, there is no employment in small communities, and people will have the legal right to smoke marijuana, but it's going to be very expensive if you don't have a store in your community, very expensive. You're going to have to fly somewhere or drive somewhere. Even the drive, I have two communities that will be quite a distance from the nearest liquor store. One community, it will cost $450 to buy a plane ticket to come to Yellowknife. In another community, you have to drive 330 kilometres round trip in order to purchase legal marijuana. In people's right minds, they're not going to do that, and the government's got to know that.

It's ridiculous that the government could say, "We're just going to open in certain places because it'll govern that we don't want to put it in small communities." That's a right. It's a legal right for individuals to have marijuana, and that's going to happen on July 1st right across this country, yet we, as a government, make a decision that we are going to restrict it to certain communities. You know, it was good that they had allowed plebiscites in communities that don't have liquor stores. That's fine. If the majority of the communities say they don't want to have marijuana present in their community, legal marijuana present in their community, that it's illegal to possess marijuana in your community, even though it's legal in every other community, then that's their right to do so, but they should be given that option. Why would they remove the option? Why is the government presupposing that that's what should happen and remove that ability or that right for individuals to have marijuana in their communities?

I find that -- like, I can't explain it. I can't explain the rationale. People have come in small communities and said, "If we put a store in a community, it's going to, you know, it's mad. It's like alcohol." Well, it's not like alcohol, at all. You've got to quit advising people that this is an enhancement of alcohol. It's two different drugs. Two different drugs have two different types of effects on a person's body.

There are a lot of people that do not do either. Many people in the territories don't smoke marijuana. Many people don't drink alcohol. That's a personal choice. They have the right to do it, but they don't. However, if we pass this bill as is and we don't look at changing it and we don't look at opening it up to smaller communities, then that right is removed from individuals. The government must be flexible. It must be flexible to be able to positively allow people their rights.

Everyone in the Northwest Territories should have the right to be able to purchase marijuana where they wish to do so if they wish to smoke marijuana. The government has to be prudent enough to let the market decide how drugs or marijuana should be sold in the communities or cannabis should be sold in the communities. The government's going to go into liquor stores. They are going to set the price. Drug dealers are going to come in and lower the price. It's gonna happen, guys. You got to open it up. This is not a prudent thing to do, restricting it to only some communities and everybody else can fend for themselves. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you Mr. Beaulieu. Would the Minister like to respond?

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Louis Sebert

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, yes, our initial plan is that it will be sold through the current liquor stores, but it's important to remember also that there will be in the future, online or mail-order schemes so that those outside of those communities that have a liquor store will have the ability to obtain marijuana. The bill doesn't limit the designation to the current liquor stores; in the future there may be other vendors that are designated. As I say, our thinking has evolved in this, thanks in part, because of the submissions that have been made by committees, and, yes, there may not be a vendor in every community, but as I said, there may be other ways to obtain cannabis.

In comparing ourselves to some of the other jurisdictions, I note that, in Ontario, there are only going to be 40 retail outlets, so one outlet for every 300 000 people. We're going to have more per capita than that. Now obviously there are geographic challenges, but as I say, hopefully online or mail-order will solve some of those problems.

Certainly, we do want to end the black market in marijuana, and that is one of the purposes of the federal bill. These issues have been around for a long time. Mr. Beaulieu pointed out that marijuana has been here, I think he mentioned from the 1960s, probably even longer than that. There have been many changes suggested over the years, as long ago as the Le Dain Commission, which I think was in the early 1970s, which looked at the marijuana legislation. Who would have thought it would have taken 45 more years to come to where we are now?

So, yes, it may be that people in the larger communities will have easier access to cannabis, but there are ways that people in other communities, should they wish, will be able to obtain either by online or mail-order. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Next on the list, we have Ms. Green.

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Julie Green

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I am just going to take a step back. I want to reiterate a point that another of my colleagues made, which is that we didn't ask for this legislation. Ottawa decided within its own power that it was a good idea to legalize cannabis, and what we were left with as the NWT, along with the other territories and provinces, is how to implement the legalization of cannabis. In undertaking this job, a really huge job, we are breaking new ground about how to make that happen. As my colleague the Member for Hay River North says often, and it's worth repeating again, there's never been an end to prohibition before in our lifetime. We don't know what this looks like and we don't have a map for it.

So that left us in the position of reviewing legislation created by the territorial government that was supposed to, or theoretically addresses three areas; harm reduction, the security of the supply chain, and public safety. The result is this huge bill, 60 pages and three schedules. What we know is that people are very leery of this legalization because of the devastation they've witnessed of alcohol in their communities, in their families, and perhaps even in their own lives. Alcohol is a huge problem in the NWT. I noted yesterday that one of the measures of the problems that alcohol causes, which is hospitalizations resulting primarily from alcohol, has again gone up, and it is higher in the NWT than in most other places.

That was a message that I certainly paid attention to when we were travelling around, and we heard more of it in the small communities than we did in the regional centres, I think because the effects are really magnified in those small populations, and because people care deeply for one another, because most often they are related, directly or indirectly.

So the public engagement was very thorough, and the southern committee chaired by my colleague Mr. Thompson, we certainly made every effort to hear what people had to say with open hearts, without prejudging the results. We came back here and we tried to work on ways to improve the legislation that we'd received, and to make it more reflective of what we had heard, and the result was, as my colleague from Yellowknife North said, 20-plus motions to adjust the bill. The government agreed with many, but not all of those adjustments. We are left with two very substantial areas of disagreement; the first, as the member for Yellowknife Centre said, is about vendorship. It's about how new vendors are going to be brought into this process outside the Liquor Commission, and also, as my colleague from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh described very well, how to make this into a system that is fair to everyone and not into a two-tier system, where people with liquor stores have access to cannabis, and people without liquor stores don't.

Today we are going to try again to address that issue, and another issue that is very important to me, which is the issue of co-location. There is no question in my mind, and I will speak about this at length, that co-location is a bad idea. It takes the problems of alcohol and compounds them with cannabis. In the current vendorship situation of having sales only in communities that have commercial market rental, there is no reason to have co-location. That's something that we'll be talking about.

Mr. Chair, people often ask me, not always in a joking way, what we do when we're not sitting here. The answer is that we do this kind of work. We take government bills, we make every effort to understand them, and then we take them out to the public and ask them what they think of the legislation. We do our best to reflect what they've said to us and to improve the legislation that we've been given. That is a big part of what we do, and the Order Paper reflects that we are going to be doing much more of this in the time remaining in the 18th Assembly.

Finally, I just want to reflect on how unfortunate it is that the Regular Members have split between the northern MLAs and the other MLAs in support of the amendments. Last week the Members supported the amendments, but I realize that that may not be the case today. It turns out that solidarity is fleeting, and I think that's very unfortunate; but at the same time I also recognize that it's an issue that I don't have any influence over. My hope today is for a thorough and respectful debate of the remaining amendments, and that we will be able to continue improving the act before it's made law. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Ms. Green. Would the Minister like to respond.

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Louis Sebert

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There are an awful lot of opinions out there as to how we should proceed. I know that when our officials went out, and I'm looking at the report on what we heard, there were quite a few different suggestions about how to proceed. I do see, at page 20 of the report, there seemed to be, when asked the question, "Do you favour sales controlled by a GNWT agency or a more open system," there was a slight majority in favour of a GNWT agency, such as the Liquor Commission, but when we got to other questions, such as retail model suggestions, there were many, many different suggestions.

One that received the most support seemed to be the Liquor Commission one. There's one that suggested a tobacco model, a pharmacy health centre model, online mail order model, GNWT-operated dispensaries, private retailers, entrepreneurs. Raising taxes, I see, is one, and nowhere -- I guess those were opposed -- and others. I'm not sure what they wanted. It's not surprising that there were an awful lot of opinions on the other side of the House, if I can put it that way, because there are a lot of differences of opinion within Cabinet. However, we felt in the end that this was the way to proceed. So there were active discussions on our side, also.

Ms. Green has raised the issue of co-location, which is a complicated issue, and I am well aware that the McLellan Report stated that that might not be the best way to go, but that same report acknowledged that smaller and remote communities may not have the flexibility to accommodate a dedicated separate retail location. So it's a very, very tough issue. We are alive to it. As I say, I think all of us had different opinions going into this situation. We're now having to respond to the federal government's initiative, and I think we've come forward with a compromise bill that probably doesn't make everybody happy, but I think it is most appropriate in the circumstances. Thank you, Mr. Chair

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The Chair

The Chair Daniel McNeely

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Committee will now take a short recess. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, committee. I will now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Next on our list, we have Mr. O'Reilly.

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Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. That dinner was a tough act to follow.

I made some remarks when we were discussing the committee report a couple of days ago where I thanked committee and the public, and I don't really want to go over that ground again, but I want to say that I do personally agree with legalization. I wish that we had more time, though, and that much of our efforts, and I think most of the efforts have been very well-intentioned, have been really fraught with poor communications. We have had to deal with a whole set of very complex, difficult issues, and it has been very divisive. I think we are going to see more of that, unfortunately, today.

I am a bit resentful of the amount of time that this has taken up, and I wish that we could have probably devoted this time to a number of other issues. I recognize that this is largely brought on by the federal government, and it is probably going to be the most significant legislation that this Assembly deals with. It could lead to some very profound changes that we probably can't anticipate right now.

I also feel that this is being rushed and that we are basically in a big pressure cooker. There are a number of residual issues that we are going to talk about here this evening. They really boil down to things like the retail model, whether cannabis and liquor should be sold out of the same location. I have some issues around the age limit, which I am going to try to address in one way, and I will be bringing forward another motion to try to improve the toolbox that communities have once a cannabis store is located in their community.

Also, there are a number of underlying issues here that I think are really fundamental. The most important is ministerial authority. That is what this is really about, and much of the debate that we are going to be talking about in the motions to come is really about ministerial authority. That's what it's all about, and unfortunately, it has boiled down to Cabinet versus the Regular MLAs and some issues of trust, as well.

I have said that we're not going to get this right. No matter what we do, whatever kind of comprises people are going to make, we're not going to get this right, and we're going to make mistakes. The one, I think, important feature of the bill that is now before us is that there will be a review within two or three years, the next Assembly will conduct that, on the implementation of the bill. It will be up to those that come after us to review this and try to make it better.

I think, Mr. Chair, that is all I want to say for now. Like my colleague from Yellowknife Centre, I do hope for a respectful debate. I know everybody is trying to do their best to represent their ridings and their citizens and do the best thing for the Northwest Territories, even if we disagree. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Would the Minister like to respond?

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Louis Sebert

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Not really. I know that this has been a divisive issue, and hopefully, at the end of this, we can come together with the best kind of bill possible. Sometimes it is said that the perfect is the enemy of the good. This is not a perfect bill, I don't think anybody would say this, but I think it is a good bill. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Next on the list, we have Mr. Nadli.

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Michael Nadli

Michael Nadli Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to take the opportunity just to briefly outline, in my language, the nature of the significance of this moment here, so if you could bear with me.

[English translation not provided.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just explained that the matter that is before us is Bill 6, the legalization of marijuana, and for some time, its use has been underground for a long time for our people. So, you know, the discussion at this point is historical. It's symbolic, and that even for me, I would never have imagined in my lifetime to see the legalization of marijuana.

Sentimental reflection aside, the reality is, Bill 6 was in response to the federal legislation to legalize marijuana. In fact, it placed us in a process that was already predetermined for us. It was inevitable for us to support the legalization of marijuana, especially up here in the Northwest Territories.

From an Indigenous perspective, another layer has been put upon our communities. As we travelled throughout the communities, and I was a member of the joint committee that travelled in the southern communities, part of our communications in the communities was to almost, perhaps, assure communities, yes, legalization is coming, but there is a trigger that you could use, and that is through a plebiscite. A lot of our people, because of their experience with alcohol and the many tragic things that come along with it through our history, especially the leaders who have experienced it firsthand, did not support the idea of legalization.

What we told them was, they could say no to marijuana; that you could ban it; and that you could prohibit the use of marijuana in your communities through a plebiscite. In a sense, what we heard through our communities is that you could have a level of control. What Bill 6 proposes to do is to have the government control the sales and distribution of marijuana or cannabis versus the free market retail system where we let the market decide. I understand that.

Now, being part of this committee, we are giving the draft Bill 6 as it was, an opportunity to review it, and then to consult. Therefore, we travelled into our communities. When we went into communities, we listened. We listened to what people had to say.

When we did that report, those recommendations reflected what we believe people were telling us in the communities. From my understanding, there was a lot of social concerns, a lot of fears about the legalization of marijuana. Here we are talking about Bill 6, and it's rather interesting that, on one hand, we are given a sense of control to our communities. Yes, you could have a plebiscite. Bill 6 is inevitable, and marijuana will become legalized. At the same time, we are trying to at least look at the idea of a free market economy system. It is rather interesting that we have two parallels or two extremes, but my sense from communities is that it gives them a sense of control, and I believe this legislation proposes to do.

I'm in a position to say, as I've said, I could never imagine in my lifetime that I would ever say these words, that I support the legalization of cannabis or marijuana. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Would the Minister like to respond?

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Louis Sebert

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes, thank you. I thank Mr. Nadli for his comments and concerns, which we've carefully noted. We realize that legalization and what comes with it is of great concern throughout the Northwest Territories. He mentioned early on that he was surprised to see its legalization. I'm surprised to see that it took so long. As I mentioned, the Le Dain Commission was some 45 years ago, and we've been talking about it ever since.

There is a discussion about free market and controlled market. I see our proposal is somewhat in the middle, government controlled to some degree. Those who own the liquor stores, I understand, are private entrepreneurs, so there is kind of a mixed system in here that we are contemplating. I feel that as we start out on this journey, this is a reasonable system that we proposed. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Next on our list, we have Mr. McNeely.

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Daniel McNeely

Daniel McNeely Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to share and take not too much time on what's in front of us today. I recall decades ago in some job sites where joking manners were made to legalizing marijuana. As my colleagues Mr. Nadli and Mr. O'Reilly said, I couldn't imagine I would be in a position to say that I support legalization; however, it's a bill that is pretty much forced upon us. We are complying with somebody else's direction. I know all the colleagues in the House are passionate of their decision-making process to do what is right for the people they serve, and for the people of the Northwest Territories.

Given the work of committee, the staff, the research, puts us here today at the moment of voting on Bill 6. It is in today's society where it makes us so much different compared to years ago. Some items or issues can be said that we are really modernizing society, and by comparison, the cannabis drug is really weak in comparison to what is already out there. I was very surprised in going to some of the communities that I never thought I would ever go during our northern consultation, only to find out that cannabis is all over our Northwest Territories in our 33 communities, and in far more greater volumes than I ever could imagine.

Moving forward, I'm hoping our government would reserve the necessary resources that we were denied. The limitations of the resources we received only allowed us to go to 16 communities in a short period of time, on a piece of legislation that we were learning as we went along on engagements of what we heard, and that was the intent of the trip, on what we heard. What we heard helped us develop the report.

Moving forward, all of the communities, including the young students, were recommending to us that we do come back in a forum of education, public consultation and give them the materials to help educate society on what's being legally imposed on them and also take into account the difficulties that we are going to have with policing and enforcing Bill 6. So those are my few words on this issue. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair

The Chair Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Mr. McNeely. Would the Minister like to respond?