I call committee back to order. Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 654-19(2), 2021-2022 Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission Final Report. I will go to the deputy chair of Caucus for any opening comments. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am pleased to provide opening comments on this matter as deputy chair of the Caucus.

As required by legislation, the House appointed an Electoral Boundaries Commission in 2021. The Commission published an interim report in December of 2021 to generate public input and discussion. Public consultations were hampered by COVID-19 but three virtual public hearings were held from February 14th to the 18th, 2022. Three residents appeared at these public hearings, and 12 others provided written submissions to the Commission. The commission's final report was tabled in the Legislative Assembly on May 27th, 2022, and included five recommendations.

Our debate this afternoon will publicly review and consider each of these recommendations. The recommendations adopted by the House today will be considered by the Board of Management who will use them to draft and introduce legislation. Hopefully later this sitting, any changes resulting from these recommendations will take effect at the start of the 20th Legislative Assembly.

This concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. Once other Members have offered general observations, I am prepared to introduce motions to accept the Commission's recommendations. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Are there any further opening comment from Members? Thank you, Members. We will now proceed to the consideration of the report's recommendation. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Member for Hay River. The motion is in order. To the motion. Member for Hay River South.

Madam Chair, I recommend that this motion be accepted. I know that even minor adjustments to the electoral boundaries can be problematic for both Members, candidates, and most importantly residents. But some of the ridings in Yellowknife have grown much more rapidly than others and rebalancing is required. The same is true to a lesser extent in Inuvik. We strike independent Commissions to do this work for us to try and keep politics out of these important decisions. Madam Chair, I support the recommendations. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. To the motion. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I too understand the reason for this work, and I thank the commission for doing so and especially during a difficult time when engagement is next to impossible.

I have to say and express my disappointment on the changes to my riding -- or district that will coming in the sense of I have really connected with a lot of my constituents in areas that I'm now no longer, or if I am successful in my reelection, I would no longer be their MLA. While that is unfortunate, I do understand that the evening out of the ridings is very important. So while that is a personal disappointment, it is something that I will be supporting in this. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. To the motion. Member for Inuvik Boot Lake.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm in favour of this motion as well which, it just means for Inuvik, it's equal representation, which means based on the new motion, it would be one extra block that will be given to Inuvik Twin Lakes MLA. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, and thank you again, Member. To the motion. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you. If maybe you could help just clarify for me in regards to the minor amendment for the Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh riding. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. I think, according to the information in the document, is that the residents living on the Dettah Road will now be part of the Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh -- I think they always have been, but I think it's just now documented, the people that are living on that road are a part of the Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh riding. Did you have any further questions, comments? Thank you. To the motion. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Committee, please indulge me, I plan to speak for a while here.

I think when we gave this to the Electoral Boundaries Commission, many of us expected to see the addition of Yellowknife seats, which have long been underrepresented and have moved well past the 25 percent threshold established by both the Supreme Court of Canada and Justice Charbonneau in the last judicial review where Yellowknife was ordered to be given more seats, as well as an additional seat for the Monwfi riding, which now under this new formula is also well beyond that threshold and is the most underrepresented riding in the Northwest Territories.

I do not support this drawing of the boundaries. I believe they should have dealt with the question.

What they did here was creative; I'll give them credit for doing that work. They essentially created two types of ridings - urban, which include Hay River, Inuvik, Yellowknife, Fort Smith, and then the remaining seven are all special ridings. I don't think any of us in this House have issue with special ridings. There are ridings that are small in population, and I think always should warrant one MLA, and we can live with that. But when you look at the map, and it is a creative map they have done, Yellowknife's going to have to get to about 26,000 people, which is, you know, an increase of -- well, I don't know, about 20 percent or so, to get another seat. So it basically we've locked in under this new formula, the underrepresentation of Yellowknifers for the coming decades, assuming we accept this formula. As well as Monfwi, being a special designated riding, will never get another seat. They can gain another thousand people and it just doesn't matter. They're special, and that means they get one MLA under this formula. I don't think that's fair.

The commission should have done their job and presented an option that is in compliance with the current law. I recognize that this committee, it was chaired by a former judge, a Supreme Court judge, and if this is judicially reviewed, there's probably a pretty strong deference to recommendations made by former judges and passed by Legislative Assemblies, so I don't know whether this will survive judicial review. But I think perhaps we should have had the fight that was meant to be had about what to do about this fundamental question of as the population of Yellowknife increases, it gets underrepresented by MLAs.

It's not an easy question. I believe there was a political compromise probably to add one more seat to Monfwi and one more seat to Yellowknife and bring us to a 21-Member Legislative Assembly. That's the option I would have favoured. But, you know, that's not even a great option. I don't think any of us are all that excited about more politicians in this territory. So there are no easy options.

But the way I see it the commission did not go out and do the hard question of bringing us something that is in compliance with the previous court cases on this issue, and I am concerned that whether people from the Tlicho region or people from Yellowknife bring a court case that we will lose that, and we will put that all into chaos.

All that being said, I have one more other comment. I find it very odd that the Ingraham Trail is being moved from Yellowknife North to Range Lake. Ridings tend to develop a bit of a culture over time, and Ingraham Trail was part of the Weledeh riding before Yellowknife North riding was created, and I think those residents are better suited to remain in the Yellowknife North riding. I think they have a lot of similarities. I just don't think it makes sense to move that over to Range Lake. It's only a couple hundred people, most of whom are illegally living in recreational leases anyway so they shouldn't even be there.

Yeah, for those reasons I'm just not prepared to accept this motion and the work of the Electoral Boundaries Commission. I thank all of them for their work. It's not an easy job. They were faced with one of the hardest political challenges I think we have, which is what to do about this underrepresentation of Yellowknife issue. It certainly doesn't make anyone happy. But I don't think they faced it head on, and I think they've left us some legal risk. And ultimately, I can't support it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. To the motion. Member for Yellowknife South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I agree with a lot of what the Member for Yellowknife North has had to say. I am looking now also at the results of the proposed changes to the ridings and the results that that leads to which, as noted already, does not resolve the chronic and historic underrepresentation of Yellowknife residents. I understand that there's a number of factors, everything ranging from geography to language to historical connection and that, you know, the right to being represented doesn't mean, you know, that it's a perfect number that you draw down and that everyone has exactly the same amount of representation percentage. And in fact, there's quite a wide variance accepted anywhere in Canada under law and that in addition to that, we add sort of what we say are the special ridings. And I agree, there's a good reason for that. That makes perfect sense in the Northwest Territories; if we're going to do things to best suit the residents of the Northwest Territories and some of the unique circumstances of the Northwest Territories. But much has been said by my colleague here.

I struggle with the fact that we just aren't facing this issue. We just aren't facing the fact that there are some ridings where there are many residents of the Northwest Territories who simply do not have the same level of representative voice in this room as others.

Is this the best solution? You know, Madam Chair, having basically not faced the question, this redrawing of the electoral boundaries, you know, subject to hearing other comments here, I'm not opposed to the redrawing that they've done, but I -- again, I'm simply putting on the record that I do agree that right now, the people that live in Yellowknife South will be having the least amount of representation next only to Monfwi. And that these two ridings will have the most residents in them and pushing 20 percent or more over -- or underrepresentation compared to all the other ridings. So, you know, again, what we're really voting on at this point is just a redrawing of the boundaries. So be it. But it is unfortunate that a better solution that is more representative simply can't seem to be found or that we can't have the better debate about it, so. But there we are. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. To the motion. Member for Range Lake.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I also agree with the Member from Yellowknife North. I do think that for many years I've been hearing about the underrepresentation, and I do think that it should have been addressed. I'm not a hundred percent sure why the committee didn't address that or give it a solid explanation of why not. I think that kind of a disservice was done. But, Madam Chair, so therefore I'm going to vote against this motion.

But Madam Chair, if it does go through, one thing I did hear on the campaign trail is there's a lot of confusion on the Ingraham Trail. People were telling me that they believe they were in my riding of Range Lake, and I knew that they weren't. So if this motion does pass, I think that we need to do a huge advertising campaign so that the residents know who their MLA will be because that's an issue that I've been seeing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. To the motion. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I guess I would like to thank the members of the commission for the work that they undertook. I did review the interim report, and again the final report. I didn't make a submission as I think there's always some risk in sitting MLAs actually participating in these kinds of processes. But, you know, I think, as I've heard some other Members speak, that the difficult decision of the number of MLAs and how the boundaries should be drawn has largely been kind of put off to eight years in the future when the next Electoral Boundaries Commission would sit and consider these matters. And I'm not sure that that's a great idea. I guess I'd hoped that they would -- I understand their reasoning and their creative way of trying to address, you know, the linguistic cultural diversity of the Northwest Territories and the rural/urban dimensions. And I think they really tried to avoid tinkering with some of the balance issues that, you know, even the courts struggle with. So what they have come up with is redrawing of some of the boundaries within Yellowknife and Inuvik. And, you know, I don't know enough about Inuvik to say anything about those boundaries but the Yellowknife boundaries, the way that they've been presented in the report and will -- you know, what we're talking about is actually now adopting the recommendations from the commission which would then have to be put into legislation in time for the next election. So we're kind of up against a time constraint here, and it's kind of like a "take it or leave it" approach right now where if we accept the recommendations from the commission, there is time to get this put into legislation in time for the next election. If we reject these recommendations, I'm not sure that changes can be made in time for the next election. And I'm not even going to go anywhere near a court challenge.

I've looked at the changes that are proposed for the Yellowknife ridings. Frame Lake is not my riding; it's the riding that I represent now, and there may be another MLA here in the future representing that riding. So I don't take any issues or I don't have any concerns about the redrawing of the Frame Lake boundary. I'm here to serve the people wherever they live in the riding. But the one area, as some of my colleagues have mentioned, that does cause me some concern is the Ingraham Trail. Traditionally they've been part of the Yellowknife North riding, and I don't think people on the Ingraham Trail even know this is happening and that by accepting the recommendations here this evening that they are going to be moved into the Range Lake riding. I don't think they know that. And I don't think they've had the ability to express their concerns, if they have any about that, because nobody really knows. So that's the one thing that I'm particularly concerned about. And, you know, I guess the option would be that we don't accept these boundaries or have somebody else look at it and redraw them in some way. But for Yellowknife MLAs to be seen tinkering with the boundaries themselves, gerrymandering; we don't want to go there, that's just not a good thing. So I don't know who, you know, we would even ask. Could we refer this back to the commission, or ask the -- I don't know -- Elections NWT to look at this issue? The bureau of stats? I don't know. But I have been mulling this over for a while, and I'm just not sure that I can support this, the recommendation the way that it's been framed. So I'm just not sure what I'm going to do at this point. But this is a difficult topic and we're under some time constraints, and I'm just not sure what to do. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. To the motion. Member for Monfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know -- well, it is frustrating, you know, because if we get a seat -- if Tlicho get a seat, then Yellowknife automatically get a seat. I mean, that's -- well, it doesn't sit well with us because for a long time we've been asking for an additional seat, you know, in Tlicho region, since 2011 that I can think that -- you know, that I can think of, that we've been asking for an additional seat in Tlicho region because being -- Behchoko being the largest Dene community, second by Tuktoyaktuk, Indigenous community. So it's -- like, oh okay, it's just that it's not right what's happening here.

When Inuvik got their additional seat, when Hay River got their additional seat, Tlicho region should have got their additional seat as well because in Behchoko alone, we have -- it's, like, close to 2,000 population. And we are underrepresented. And people do get frustrated in my region because of underrepresentation. And it just -- yes, it is frustrating because if we get a seat, then Yellowknife gets a seat. We should be separate from that, you know. If we were alone with our population size in the regions, we should be standalone and give the seat that is greatly needed in my region.

And the chiefs -- well, I talk to my community leaders, or I talked to a leader. They said they did get a letter from the Commissioner -- Electoral Commissioner. So they did get the letter but what they wanted was some kind of an engagement with them, to talk to them, to meet with MLAs so that you can hear their view on this important issues, this important issues where it's just that it's -- like, should we go on another, you know -- for another -- for 20th Assembly with only one representation from my region? But we know where it's going. I know what's going to happen. I know this will -- you know, regardless, it's still either -- you know, it's going to go ahead.

So I just -- for that, I will not support this because Tlicho region is very underrepresented, and we do need additional seat. And even my colleagues have said that here too. So I do really -- I will not support this motion at this time. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. To the motion. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This issue here has been brought up while I was doing my door to door last year, and there were issues even then when I was listening to my constituent members. And the Yellowknife North used to include Dettah and N'dilo before. And then their recent -- in the last review of the electoral boundaries changed and they included N'dilo and Dettah in the new riding Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh riding. And so when I was going door to door, some of the members were talking about, you know, they were -- they really didn't want to see that happen mainly because their language and culture. And, but they went ahead. They talked about this. And so now today in the Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh riding we have four communities.

Even though this minor amendment to include Dettah Road in this amendment in this motion, the people that live on that Dettah Road already were voting in the last election. So, you know, I'm also concerned that, you know, we got to talk about consultation accommodation, and I'm not -- I don't see that here because of, you know, what happened in the pandemic. And there's some concerns there. And, you know, if we go ahead with this, I'm going to see -- I could see a judicial review happening because a lot of people were really never consulted when this whole Commission was happening during the pandemic, and I think it's something that may come back and haunt us. So Madam Chair, I cannot support this motion at this time. Thank you.