Debates of Aug. 28th, 2023

Members, by the order of the Commissioner of the Legislative Assembly, this sitting outside the capital in Inuvik. I thank mayor Clarence Wood and the town of Inuvik for the use of their chambers.

The Assembly last sat outside of Yellowknife in 1989 in Norman Wells. Under Rule 10.1, this sitting is a hybrid one. Members are here in person and virtually and is due to the state of emergency in the Northwest Territories. All Members are concerned for residents displaced by wildfires. Many Members are displaced themselves. Like you, we fear for the safety of your homes, businesses, and communities. On behalf of the Assembly, thank you to everyone working to keep our communities safe, the firefighters, military personnel, municipal staff and leaders, civil servants, contractors, and volunteers. We see your work and sacrifice.

At this moment, I want to acknowledge Northwest Territories firefighter Adam Yeadon. Adam died fighting wildfires near Fort Liard on July 15th, 2023. Adam was a young man who lost his life protecting others. I ask Members to join me in a moment of silence in his honour.

Thank you, Members.

Members, today's sitting will be different. Under Rule 10.5(2), I have issued special orders of the day to ensure the efficient operation of the Chamber. These orders reflect Members' desire for a business-focused sitting. We are here to deal with the timing of the election. We are also here to authorize additional spending to respond to these wildfires.

This is the largest hybrid sitting we have done. It is on short notice. We are in a community and not in the Chamber. There will be technical difficulties, technical challenges. This includes the live stream. Be patient, stay focused on why we are here. If we do, we will get through this together.

Members, I have received a letter from the Commissioner, the Honourable Margaret Thom. It reads:

Dear Mr. Speaker. I wish to advise that I recommend to the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories the passage of Appropriation Act (Infrastructure Expenditures) 2024-2025; Supplementary Appropriation Act (Operations Expenditures) No. 2, 2023-2024, during the second session of the 19th Assembly.

Members, the Member for Monfwi has provided me with notice that, pursuant to Rule 3.5(1), she wishes to move a motion for emergency debate calling upon the Government of the Northwest Territories to ensure that Indigenous governments are involved in the GNWT's response to end the current wildfire emergency. Under that rule, the Member would move the motion for an emergency debate at the conclusion of oral questions but those are not on the orders today. That means Rule 10.5(2) applies. That rule relates to remote sittings.

It states where the rules in this section are silent on a matter covered elsewhere in the rules, the Speaker may amend any rule or procedure as required to allow for the effective participation of Members appearing remotely. In the efficient operation of the Chamber under Rule 10.5 (2), I direct special orders of the day for today to ensure the efficient operation of the Chamber. This sitting could be characterized as an emergency sitting. The orders were issued to allow for a business-focused sitting, focused on dealing with two pressing matters:

• Changing the date of the election; and,
• Approving additional funding for wildfire response.

The Northwest Territories is under a state of emergency. We must be focused on the pressing matters at hand; however, Members will have their individual privileges. When a motion is made for an emergency debate, if it passes all of the remaining business of the day is set aside. That would mean dealing with the timing of the election and authorizing spending for wildfire response would not be dealt with today.

I am concerned that the Member's motion may not get fair consideration if Members are worried that the matter we were called together would be put aside. As a result, under Rule 10.5(2), I will amend Rule 3.5(1) such that at the end of third reading of bills, the Member may move to set aside the original business of the House to discuss a matter of urgent public importance requiring immediate consideration.

Members, I believe this balances the privileges of the Member and the Assembly and ensures the efficient operation of the Chamber. Thank you.

Tabling of documents. Minister responsible for Finance.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document: Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2023-2024. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister responsible for Finance. Tabling of documents. Government House Leader.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following five documents: Government of the Northwest Territories response to Motion 74-19(2) Reconciliatory Review of Housing NWT's Collection Approach; Government of the Northwest Territories Response to Motion 77-19(2) Review of the Territorial Land Lease Policy and Procedures; Government of the Northwest Territories Response to Committee Report 40-19(2) Report on the Review of Bill 61, An Act to Amend the Ombud Act; Government of the Northwest Territories Response to Committee Report 50-19(2) Strengthening Community Supports, Lifting Youth Voices Recommendations for Suicide Prevention; and, Government of the Northwest Territories Response to Committee Report 51-19(2) Report on Indigenous Representation in the Northwest Territories Public Service. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Government House Leader. Tabling of documents. Colleagues, before we get into consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters, I would just like to recognize in our small public gallery, our mayor, the mayor of Inuvik Clarence Wood. Thank you for allowing us to be in your Chamber today. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and other matters, Bill 23, Bill 29, Bill 77, Bill 82, Committee Report 52-19(2), Minister's Statement 264-19(2), Tabled Document 681-19(2), Tabled Document 967-19(2), with Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes in the chair.

Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 967-19(2) Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures) No. 2, 2023-2024. Does the Minister of Finance have any opening remarks?

Thank you, Madam Chair, I do. Madam Chair, I am here to present Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2023-2024. These supplementary estimates propose a total increase of $75 million to fund the shortfall within the fire suppression budget for the Department of Environment and Climate Change.

I recognize that this request is substantial, and it will have an impact on the GNWT's forecasted operating surplus. I want to assure committee that the Department of Finance is taking steps to ensure that the government remains in compliance with the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, as well as considering how best to mitigate the financial impacts of the wildfire season. Given the challenges faced over the last six months, it is likely that GNWT departments will need to prioritize operations and assess activities that are key to government operations and support the residents of the Northwest Territories. As a government, we continue to seek opportunities to recover costs associated with these natural disasters from the federal government.

That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. I would be happy to answer any questions that the Members may have.

Thank you, Minister. Minister, do you wish to bring your witnesses forward?

Yes, please, Madam Chair.

Does committee agree?

Thank you. Would the Minister please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Madam Chair, I believe on the line, also remotely, should be the deputy minister of Finance Bill MacKay, as well as Terence Courtoreille, the assistant deputy minister or deputy secretary to the financial management board. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. I will now open the floor for general comments, and if the Members, just give me time to make sure that I don't miss anybody. All right. MLA Johnson.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just wondering if the Minister can provide us an update of the initial fire suppression budget and what this initial -- or this additional $75 million brings us up to as a total and then perhaps try to answer the question whether we think this is the grand total or whether another supplementary appropriation may be coming. Thank you.

I'm just going to leave this as general comments until we get into the detail. So if you have general comments on this, state your general comments, and then if you want to get into detail with question and answer, we'll when we get into the line by line item. So do you want to continue, Mr. Johnson.

No general comments. I'll ask questions when it comes to detail. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. MLA for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. My questions are going to be detailed as well. So thank you.

All right. MLA for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I do have some general comments, and I'm going to start just by saying that I was quite surprised to see that this supplemental appropriation was specific to ECE and did not include Finance and ITI. Just from -- I'm currently sitting here in session today from the city of Edmonton, which has gone above and beyond to try to support residents, and I have to say a huge shout out to city councillors as well that have been working closely with MLAs, to try and help out people as best they can. But right now where I sit, a lot of residents have paid out of pocket for commercial airfare to get here and some of those dollars that they paid for to get here were from their mortgage and rent dollars. Some people car shared and with the current subsidies that are being provided by the GNWT, only the driver is eligible to get the dollars, and so that means that some people car shared, paid out of pocket for gas and aren't eligible to get any kind of subsidies from the GNWT. Some people ended up paying for hotels for days here down in Alberta because they were unable to get through the lineups with the Red Cross to access hotels or didn't have a means of leaving the city where it was longer for people to get hotels. And I spoke with one mother who had four young kids and was sleeping in a vehicle instead of an evacuation centre because she just didn't feel that that was a good option for her for sleeping with her children and that she would get more sleep in her vehicle. Some people are having to take taxis to the Expo Centre here in Edmonton to get food for their families because they're not comfortable in a big city using public transportation, even though the city of Edmonton has graciously made that complementary. Some people have never left the Northwest Territories before, and so it's really quite intimidating to use such a large public infrastructure to try and get around. Some people are travelling for most of the day just back and forth to the Expo Centre to try and get food and have had to kind of use out-of-pocket dollars to access some of that and are really feeling the pinch.

So from there I also just wanted to kind -- and I'm using this time, Madam Chair, to talk about this because there isn't a space in this supplementary appropriation for Finance or ITI, and so I'm unable to kind of talk about it outside of this, this space right here. But my other concern is that I have a lot of constituents who have not seen a disruption to their income but given all of these additional costs that are out-of-pocket and given that a lot of people in our territory live paycheque to paycheque, the additional costs of this evacuation are really stretching them beyond their limits and they're not sure how they're going to really put themselves back together. And I know that one of the things that we often hear said is that people need to plan for a rainy day, but a lot of people have just started to recover post-COVID. And when I think of, like, our neighbours to the south of us over in Hay River, they've been hit with rainy day after rainy day after rainy day, and there's not been an opportunity between any of their evacuations to kind of save for that rainy day. And especially when you're living paycheque to paycheque, there's no money to put away for a rainy day; the North is an expensive place to live. And so I am very concerned about, especially the residents from Hay River, who are -- I don't know how they've even begun to catch their breath. I'm concerned for the residents that I serve as to how they're going to weather this, especially where we do not know what the timeline on this is, and so I have questions too at a later date about whether or not there is room to extend these subsidies and be a lot more simple and flexible and provide them to every resident; as to whether or not if this evacuation continues, if we're going to look at additional subsidies; and that doesn't even touch on our entrepreneurs and our business owners that we very much seem we rely on in the territory with all of the work that they have done to fire smart the territory.

I'm very appreciative that the SEED funding was opened up, but I have businesses who have paid out-of-pocket without billable hours. They have paid salaries to their workers to keep them going, and they're not getting any billable hours. They're sitting down here, they are bankrupting their businesses in order to keep food on the tables and in the mouths of the workers that they have because at the end of the day, the longevity of their business, like, there's -- they're good people, which is why they're doing it, but the longevity of their business also relies on them affording their workers to come home and to stay in the territory and to keep building the territory with them. And so I just wanted to point those out there that I really would have liked to have seen some Finance and ITI dollars in this supplementary appropriation so we could discuss some of those items as well. And I'll have more specific questions for ECE when we get to the appropriate time in the budget. But I have a lot of concerns right now about our residents wearing this evacuation and weathering this very big storm. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Are there any other Members for general comments? Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I also would like to add on to my colleague Caitlin Cleveland's comments as well. The majority of my calls are coming in from -- to me as the MLA for the Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh riding is that we have a lot of members that are in Edmonton and Calgary that are displaced. Right now as it is, you know, I understand that there's supplementary funding that's been made available up to $750 for people that drove out and back. But right now as it is, people that are living on social assistance, you know, they can make application to get money and get direct deposit, but right now as you and I, we all sit here today, I have people that are -- can't afford to take a taxi to do laundry let alone to eat. You know, the monies that they have just basically, when they left Yellowknife, was basically they had no money. And now, you know, they're -- each First Nation are doing the best to help their members but as we speak right now, we got people that are asking, begging hotel managers and front desk for food and, you know, they can't even take a taxi down to the centre to get food for their children. So, you know, it just -- it's really disheartening right now as it is to -- you know, to hear these kinds of stories coming from my constituents that are down south. And not only from them but from other constituents as well, from Yellowknife and Behchoko and so on. So I'm hoping that, you know, when I read, you know, the Red Cross in Alberta, you know, who's south from us, and the food and everything else is cheaper -- are cheaper down there. But yet, you know, they are -- the Red Cross will fund them $1,250 per adult and $500 for each dependent. And, you know, that's in Alberta, but here in the Northwest Territories we need to step up as a government to help our people out too as well that are part of this evacuees down in Alberta. I know there's people on the streets in Edmonton, Calgary, people being kicked out of the hotel rooms, and so on. So I'm not really sure, like, at this point -- my phone's been ringing day and night and dealing with all kind of issues. So I'm hoping that, you know, maybe this government should maybe reach out to the Red Cross as an idea and get them to -- because right now I don't know if we have the means to help all the evacuees here in the Northwest Territories right now, but we do need to help. So Red Cross has the capacity. Maybe -- I'm just throwing this out there for discussion but right now as it is, we need to do something. You know, this bill that we're talking about from the Finance Minister, I understand that and the urgency behind it, but we also need to really, really figure a way out because this is something that this -- this here incident or, what do you want to call it, disaster, doesn't happen, like this is the first one in a long time that I can remember that's hitting home. And -- but I get calls. I got mothers crying to me. I got fathers crying to me and so on. So I'm not sure what to do. But I'm just -- I just want to put it out there and maybe we could have a discussion on that too as well. But anyway, I think the Red Cross is out there. They have the means and capacity to pay these guys, our evacuees as much as they can, but Alberta, that's what they do in Alberta. Here in the Northwest Territories, our cost of living is much higher. So, anyway, I just want to put it out there and maybe have some discussion on it. But we do -- we need to do something, and we need to help the evacuees out. And it's already been over, what, a week or ten days now, and a lot of the people are, again, have no money, and they're struggling, and I'm really -- I just want to bring that to your attention. Thank you very much. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Members, I just want to remind you that this supplementary appropriation estimates is to provide funding for the shortfall in fire suppression activities for this season. That's what we are discussing here in Committee of the Whole. And so if you can keep your questions focused on that because the Minister is not -- that's what we're prepared for here today. We don't have a bill for -- or any other information on the recovery. So I'll just put it back to Members, are there general comments on this Supplementary Estimates No. 2? Thank you.

Seeing none -- oh, MLA Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I just want to, I guess, a couple comments and, you know -- you know, the Minister's now asking and this government's asking for another $75 million to continue with the fires, you know, the firefighting efforts going on, and rightfully so. There's a lot of work going on to -- you know, to support the -- you know, the firefighters, you know, there's probably cost of equipment and the support to those at the front lines as well. And I think this is just a start of what the ask will be. But, again, you know, I understand as well is that, you know, there's no asking here for additional funds for evacuees, which we're hearing a lot of.

In Hay River, we've been hit three times with evacuations and basically people are financially exhausted. We need to force -- you know, this government has to force the federal government to step up and provide -- for me, it would be no less than $3,000 per adult and $1,500 per youth as a start to support them while evacuated.

The other issue too that's come up and, again, it doesn't relate to the $75 million, but is the need to address and support businesses. A lot of them are hurting right now. In Hay River, again, it's the third time that they've --

MLA -- Mr. Simpson?

What?

I'd just like you to keep the comments focused on the $75 million for the wildfire suppression in general comments, and then -- thank you.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And that's all.

Thank you. Are there any other general comments? All right. So seeing no further general comments. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contain understand the tabled document?

Thank you. Committee, we'll begin on page 3 with the Department of Environment and Climate Change, Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2023-2024, Department of Environment and Climate Change, wildlife and forest management, not previously authorized, $75 million. Does committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.

Yes, thanks, Madam Chair. Just quickly, I'm in Edmonton; I want to thank the firefighters, volunteers, contractors, and our Alberta hosts.

I'd like to know, though, from the Minister whether we actually have a total estimate of what the firefighting costs are to date and what it's likely to be by the end of the season and whether this supplementary appropriation is going to be enough? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, ECC's base budget for fire suppression is around $21.8 million, and our current estimate is that the supplementary estimate we're proposing should get to the end of the fire season, but you'll detect in my language some uncertainty. Our estimates as of right now, which led to the request for $75 million, is based on where we were at already now about ten days ago -- if I had my date correctly -- and, of course, things have continued to change significantly. It was actually as of August 22nd; this is where we were at in estimating where we were, which would be a projection that would -- you know, bringing us to a total requirement of just under $100 million. And so with that, the shortfall is around $75 million, thereabouts. Again, a bit of an added contingency there. Yeah, can I say where we're at? Again, typical fire season would end sort of by the -- somewhere in October. Nothing about this year has been typical thus far. So, you know, hopefully this will be adequate to get through to the end of that period. If not, it should at least be adequate to get through to the point that there'd be another opportunity for an Assembly sitting later in the fall. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. MLA for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. So in my quick review of the disaster finance assistance arrangements that the federal government has to help provincial/territorial governments, it doesn't look like any firefighting costs are eligible for reimbursement, at least under the policy, and that seems to be across the country. Can the Minister confirm that and what we're doing about it as a government? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, that is my understanding as well, that, indeed, the emergency response elements, so namely this is where some of the evacuation costs may be covered if they are within the parameters currently existing under the DFAA but, indeed, firefighting response/wildfire response, would not be. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. So this is going to leave us in a huge hole, obviously. Clearly, we cannot possibly be in compliance with the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, probably even after a couple years. But can the Minister just tell me what the supplementary -- or the reserve is at this point and how much over we're going to be as a result of this sup and -- yes, we'll start with that. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, you might recall there was $35 million as part of the supplementary reserve. That is -- you know, that will be more than depleted, quite correctly, at this point, that not involving the wildfires but there's, you know, certainly been other events that have occurred. So, yeah, we'll be well out of that.

As for the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, Madam Chair, what we do also have going for us is that it's not only the cash of the costs for expenses that drive the operation surplus from the perspective of its compliance with the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, there's amortization of assets and that also does factor in it. And so with that, we are hopeful that we will still have sufficient amount to be in compliance with the Fiscal Responsibility Policy for the purposes of capital. That is not to say that we will be in a typically positive position overall in terms of where our operations expenses are. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, okay. Thanks, yeah, now I'm really worried. So does Cabinet anticipate anything to bring forward a special warrant or that sort of instrument during the sort of caretaker period between the end of this Assembly and the election of the next Cabinet to help cover firefighting and/or other costs? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so, of course, a special warrant would be where it would be on the lead of Department of Finance Cabinet to issue an appropriation without going through the Assembly process. That is never a first choice. Madam Chair, that's my hope where -- even as I was giving you the estimates of where we're at in terms of our firefighting and the estimated shortfall as of about a week ago, you know, it would put us around $69.5 million shortfall, we are asking for $75 million here today. If this is passed, it is our anticipation, Madam Chair, that this should be sufficient to get us through to the end of the fire season and therefore well into the next Assembly and certainly there should be, you know, enough flexibility with that that a special warrant would therefore not be required. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Can we anticipate seeing another supplementary appropriation, then, for the last sitting of this Assembly, scheduled for late September, that would perhaps deal with the firefighting issue but also support -- financial support for evacuation, you know, other costs associated with the emergency that's, you know, presently throughout the Northwest Territories. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, Madam Chair, I think at this point, ECC would be getting, you know, the benefit of this supplementary appropriation that we're proposing here today, and that would be for the fire suppression budget. MACA's responsible for evacuation/emergency costs, and certainly those have now been quite significant. There's quite a lot that does go into that, whether it's the evacuation of flights that have now been opened up, or whether it's the -- you know, just the coordination efforts that now span many communities. That is something they do budget for. Now, that said, the additional support funds that have been announced through the Department of Finance and through ITI are not necessarily something budgeted for and are also into the millions already. So I do expect that we would see that come forward in a sup if there is a late September sitting. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I would certainly strongly encourage Cabinet to do that. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to see a special warrant issued in that just in the interest of accountability and transparency, there is obviously financial need for these areas and I think that the appropriate way to deal with it is through supplementary appropriation and not a special warrant, so -- and I think I saw the Minister shaking her head yes.

The last question, perhaps, Madam Chair, is -- or maybe one more comment after that very quickly -- what is Cabinet doing to try to secure any federal support to try to deal with this huge shortfall? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, typically leave for that does, of course, fall to the Premier's Office, and I think it was made public, and it certainly was shared with Members that the Premier's Office did meet with the Prime Minister so, you know, in that sense has taken the message about as high up as it can go. And, you know, obviously as we move forward, if there are some individual areas of interest, you know, different Ministers are meeting with their counterparts. For example, the Minister responsible for emergency Preparedness would be meeting with his counterpart in the federal government or myself with CanNor if there's some specific issues but it is led by the Premier's Office, and that has already begun. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake, you have about a minute left.

Yes, no, thanks, Madam Chair. I guess lastly, I will have a number of comments that I'm going to make about the adequacy of the evacuation transport financial assistance program, whatever it's called, and the fairness and adequacy of that as well as some other supports that I think are needed as some of the other Members alluded to, but I thought that it was best to make those sorts of comments at second reading of the supplementary appropriation bill that should happen later today.

But I do want to thank my Cabinet colleagues for the work because I know that they are working very hard on all of this, so. And the public needs to recognize this, I think, as well, and we are going to need to work all together to get through this. So thanks to my Cabinet colleagues and my Regular Member colleagues as well. I will support this supplementary appropriation when it comes forward. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I'll just have a couple kind of technical questions. I'm wondering if the Minister has any ability to put this kind of into how much we are spending per day or per week? I get you're asking -- well, it's $100 million total but, you know, if I had to wager a guess we've probably spent the vast majority of that in the last week or two. I'm just trying to get a sense of, you know, the pace at which we are spending. Is there any of that detail that could be provided? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I have a vague recollection, in fact, that -- well, I can certainly, firstly, confirm that, yes, a large proportion of the spending on fire suppression has, indeed, happened over the last, say, month, and in particular in the last couple of weeks. I had a number in my head, and I'm just trying to see if I can find where in my notes that was before throwing it out inappropriately. I think I will not do that since I can't seem to find it quickly. I'll turn it back to the Member but, Madam Chair, if I find it, I will -- I'll share it. It is -- it has been a significant amount. Perhaps, I'll put it this way: We were preparing for there to be a supplementary appropriation going into the -- what was to be the August session. The number in terms of what we were looking for is -- has just -- it has astronomically grown in the space of the couple of weeks before what would have been our August session to now. So I don't necessarily know if it was -- I was estimating it was at around $10 million a week, Madam Chair, and I'm getting some confirmation that my recollection might be accurate. There you go. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize this is an emergency sitting, and I am in support of this money. I don't think we're likely to vote down what is necessary fire suppression money but I think, you know, perhaps if we could get some details out to the public about, you know, how we're spending $10 million a week, and if that is the number, and if that's going to be the number for the next couple weeks as we forecasted, and I guess in terms of a question there, I'm just wondering if we have a high level breakdown of what exactly this is being spent on? Is the majority of this helicopters and aircraft, or is this a massive thing of overtime and labour? I mean, I know it's a combination of both but if we have any of those details of what our fire suppression budget looks like as a breakdown. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, Madam Chair, I don't have a detailed breakdown in a way that I think what I'm hearing is being asked for here. There are the costs, of course, for air tanker support, then there's the cost for the helicopter support, and then there's the cost for moving crews around. There are the fires that folks are watching that are impacting Fort Smith, Hay River, Kakisa, Jean Marie River, obviously Yellowknife, but there was also fires that were impacting all the way up the entire valley. This -- there's been an estimated 70 percent of the residents of the Northwest Territories who have had to evacuate their communities and, Madam Chair, there's been more than that who are under threat of evacuation. So it's been, you know, the fires that were being dealt with are all over. And just one last note on that, Madam Chair, I want to make a point, too, that it's not because we're necessarily actioning more fires. As of the end of July, only 32 percent of the fires had actually been actioned. The focus has been on trying to ensure, of course, areas where there are populations or residences or are other areas of infrastructure. So just to get a sense that there's been a real targeted effort to focus where the spending was taking place and, you know, then keeping in mind how many other fires are actually burning and what that is doing right now. Thank you.

Thank you. MLA for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I guess at this time I'm wondering if perhaps we could get a commitment of a detailed costing breakdown to be provided. I know, I believe in our capital infrastructure the GNWT is asking for 10s of million dollars for some new planes we were buying. There was some other -- I think there's about 50 million -- or there's 10s of millions for a fire centre. There's a lot of big other ticket items. Obviously going forward, we will probably adjust the fire suppression budget and perhaps have a date about -- or a debate about more, you know, prevention and more prescribed burning in communities. So I don't know if now is the time necessarily to get into all those details but this kind of $100-million season definitely cascades into some very large decisions that have to be made by this Assembly. So if we could get a detailed breakdown provided at a later date? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the timing is certainly rather challenging in that I don't know how much more this Assembly will necessarily have in terms of time or opportunity but certainly will commit that we will get a detailed breakdown. I know there is that information around; it's just that it's coming in from sources and it's changing as the costs go up and as the fires continue to be uncontrolled and therefore difficult to predict. But we'll get that to Members as quickly as we possibly can, and certainly if there is to be another sitting before this Assembly dissolves, I am conscious that we'll have that information available in advance so it's useful. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

No further questions on the appropriation. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And, Madam Chair, I know that the Member for Yellowknife North kind of alluded to some review of kind of this fire season and even the evacuation, and I know that that's something that will probably be discussed in detail in our September sitting, but can the Minister kind of indicate if that is an intent of the GNWT following this very huge fire season? Thank you. Both from the evacuation standpoint and also the fire suppression standpoint. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I missed literally the first few words of the Member from Kam Lake's question. If she could just repeat the beginning, I wasn't sure what -- if I could, please, just so I can answer more specifically. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake, can you repeat your question.

Absolutely, thank you. No, the Member for Yellowknife North alluded to doing a review of both this fire suppression season and also the evacuation, and I know that that's going to be a heavy topic probably in September if we do end up sitting in September but I'm wondering if there is any kind of commitment that could be made here today that that is work that will be done. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm never in a good position to make commitments that involve other departments. I'm fairly confident in saying that we can provide the information about the costing, both of the fire suppression this year as well as the evacuation response, including supports that have been put together very quickly over the last few days. What that will look like and whether, you know -- in terms of a sort of, quote/unquote, "review", that's where I'm hesitant in that there's typically some form of after-action review that does take place and there's certainly the processes of the Assembly that exist. So, you know, in that sense I want to say yes. I just, again -- not entirely -- I'm wanting to ensure that what the Member envisions -- sees happening and what I'm able to commit to sort of here align. But, again, there's always reviews that take place of these processes. So thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake. I think we've lost MLA for Kam Lake. We'll keep her time, and then we'll move on until she can reconnect.

Member for Thebacha. Are you there, Member for Thebacha? Member for Hay River South?

Hello?

Thank you.

Oh, sorry. Sorry, we'll just -- just one moment, Mr. Simpson. Ms. Martselos?

Yes, Madam Chair.

Go ahead.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I too will be supporting this supplementary estimate of $75 million. First of all, I want to acknowledge that, you know, Fort Smith evacuees have been away now for two weeks from the community and, you know, being the first community that was evacuated, it was a lot of -- it was very much a learning experience on behalf of myself and a big bearing on the evacuees from Fort Smith because, you know, there was a lot of loopholes. And I just want to thank all the Cabinet and all the ordinary MLAs and all the bureaucrats that helped me navigate to ensure that the Fort Smith residents were looked after properly. It was -- it was a big experience and an experience that I will never forget.

I want to thank the first responders and everybody who helped and who are helping with the fire and all those that are in evacuation centres, you know, it's -- it's a big experience for not only our Indigenous but all residents of Fort Smith and the NWT with this kind of disaster.

My question is for Minister Wawzonek, and I just want to ask the question about the operational budget. $75 million from the operations budget, I would like to know how that's going to affect all the departments and how we're going to ensure that we are not going -- the ordinary Members and residents of the NWT and all residents of the NWT are not going to have a situation where they have to do without in some other area in order for us to ensure that things continue as usual, because the cost of living in the North is very high, and the residents of the NWT have been very patient even during this evacuation. And, you know, and we have to ensure that we continue the services as we know it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, MLA Martselos. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, we -- we've worked hard over the last four years, notwithstanding multiple forms of crisis and emergency, to go from starting off with a deficit situation to being at a point where we were announcing $178 million surplus, what feels like a very long time ago now, back in February. That surplus is all but wiped out right now. There might be some smidgy bit left of that. That's my technical term, Madam Chair. At this point, we're, you know, at $178 million while we're taking $75 million out, better part of, right now. There was the $35 million, you know, supplementary appropriations reserved that was mentioned earlier but that is largely eaten up right now. The low water season is causing serious cost pressures on NTPC. It is causing serious problems for MTS. We had a litany of problems before us, Madam Chair. So when we have to take that -- when we run out of the supplementary surplus that -- or the projected surplus that we have, then we need to start looking at taking on additional debt, which then comes with high costs of interest that I think everyone is familiar with. Government pays them too. And we have a significant growing deficit, and this will only add to that.

So all of this is to say, Madam Chair, I am very live to trying to balance the needs of fire suppression, the needs for an evacuation that maintains all of our essential needs for people - accommodations, shelter, and the ability to return home - and the fact that we are not in a position as we're still recovering to then be adding a burden of high costs on people. This is a complicated and difficult and unhappy topic. I share the Member's concern. The cost of living is high in the North and, at the same time, the needs in the North are very high. I don't know that this is the time for me to try to answer or unpack all of that. I simply want to acknowledge the complexities of it, the challenges of it, and that that's -- these are conversations that have been keeping a lot of people up at night for the last -- well, I was going to say the last week, but probably before that too. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The other question I want to ask also is about the capital budget. Is this going to affect the capital budget items that we are going to be discussing in September? I'm concerned, now that we have such a bad fire season, I want to make sure that, you know, the -- the new fire centre is still on the books because, you know, this is what happens, and if we ever lose that data that's in that -- in that old building in my community, we are in big trouble. And, you know, I'm saying this because it affects not only the community of Fort Smith, it affects the whole Northwest Territories, and I don't want to see an adjustment in the capital budget at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this is where the split between our operations and capital does get a bit -- not always very intuitive. So this supplementary appropriation is attached to the 2023-2024 year. That capital budget was already passed last fall. So that's this Fiscal Responsibility Policy and our efforts to maintain to be within that impact the capital budget that we're -- that, you know, we would have been acting upon this last construction season. What will come forward to the Assembly this coming fall will be the capital budget for 2024-2025. So these operational expenditures don't impact on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Martselos.

So I'm happy that the Premier had some commitments made from the Prime Minister regarding costs. I don't know what those commitments are in detail yet and the criteria that is required. But maybe, you know, I'm hoping she covers all the travel, the evacuation costs, hotels, financial assistance to residents. And you know what, and some of the suppression, because we don't have the infrastructure, like she said, and I'm very happy that she did that and made it very clear the lack of infrastructure in the Northwest Territories.

You know, many times we are forgotten because, you know, we're a small population, does that mean we're -- we should be less than any other jurisdiction in Canada? I don't think so. And so I would like to get more details, and I'm sure we'll get that when we have sittings in September. And with that, I just want to -- I'm not going to ask any questions -- any more questions but I want to thank everybody who helped in the evacuation of the residents of Fort Smith and the NWT because it was -- it was scary.

I've never gone through anything like that, and I can imagine what happens with Hay River. Three times evacuations is unprecedented. And, you know -- and we have to realize that climate change is an issue, and it's going to continue to be an issue.

And with that, I want to thank all the Cabinet, and I want to thank each and every person that helps with all the evacuation efforts. And I especially want to thank one personnel person from Fort Smith, a MACA person, and that's Bobby Bourque. He helped me through navigating all these little issues with hotels even though, you know, it was -- it was horrendous when we first came here. And everybody else. I want to thank the leaders of the community of Fort Smith, the Aboriginal leaders, both chiefs, and the Fort Smith Metis President Allan Heron, Chief Laviolette, and Chief Paulette, for their coordinated effect on making sure that everybody came out safe and looking after the people. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Thebacha. I'll return now to MLA for Kam Lake since we have her back.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My apologies for being cut off. My computer is hanging on by a thread these days. And I appreciate all of the questions that my colleagues have asked. I've had a lot of my questions answered, and I really appreciate the responses we've received as well.

One of the questions that I really want to focus in on is whether or not the efforts that have happened within municipalities are included in this $75 million as far as fire suppression is concerned. I mean, we saw in multiple communities, private industry really showing up for all of our communities and, you know, doing sprinkler systems, doing firebreaks, and stuff like that. And so I'm wondering if those are dollars that are being charged to municipalities, if they're included in this, if those are dollars that will eventually make it up to the GNWT level because those are dollars as well that our municipalities will not have been prepared for and will far exceed municipal budgets. So I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to how private industry is being paid for their part in this. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I have to say I'm not certain that will actually be within -- again, that breakdown, I realize more detailed line by line breakdown of what ECC has spent and where they need it to go. I do apologize, Madam Chair, but I will say it's been an unusual sort of ten days, particularly in and around the capital region, where fairly significant work was being undertaken around obviously a very significant geographic size of a community. So I have, you know, made some efforts here as I'm sitting here to try to gather that information remotely. If I can get it, I will try to convey that back to the Members. I can suggest, Madam Chair, that, you know, some will be. I just -- how much, I can't say for sure. If you suggest or prefer, Madam Chair, I could defer this to the Member -- or the Minister for Municipal and Community Affairs. I don't know that he's prepared detailed budgets, but he may at least be able to speak somewhat to the relationship. Thank you.

Minister Thompson. No, we can't hear you.

Can you hear me now?

Oh yes, we can hear you now.

Sorry, I feel like that commercial here. So in regards to the question, we know that some of the costs of the communities will be covered but some of the costs that -- if we actually take them, we wouldn't get a hundred percent reimbursement from the federal government. So we will be working with municipalities on certain costs and making sure that we submit that as part of our reimbursement -- submit that as part of our EFA aid application. Hopefully that answers some of the question. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Thompson. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And I appreciate that. And can the Minister then confirm that municipalities will not be on the hook for expenses related to this forest firefighting effort -- or this wildfire fighting effort. My concern is that the cost of living in the territory is already incredibly high and that municipalities bearing the brunt of these costs will, in turn, actually just be passed on to residents through the form of taxes. And so I just want to make sure that we have a common understanding that these are not expenses that will be incurred and expected to be paid for by municipalities. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, I don't think we're going to be in a position to confirm that every last penny is going to be paid by the GNWT. The idea -- and I mean, the cost of living is very high, and the GNWT is the government that provides a lot of the public provisions of services across the Northwest Territories and in all communities and provides funding to all communities. And I know there's a constant tension and a desire to see that funding formula perhaps changed or increased but, fundamentally, I mean, there was a question earlier as to what the GNWT's going to be doing to pay for this in the face of a, you know, $75 million budget now for fire suppression and calls for increases to the amounts we're spending in the evacuation response, which is going to be in the 10s of millions of dollars already. We also don't have that money necessarily sitting anywhere. We are trying very hard to make our evacuation emergency response one that we can see some reimbursement from the federal government. We have no guarantees that we'll get any of it back. I suspect that we'll get some of it back. I don't know how much. And until we get it from the federal government, we cash flow it. And if we don't have it, it means we take on debt to pay for it. So everything impacts residents in the Northwest Territories. That is constantly the balance of trying to ensure that we are doing our best to provide essential services to everybody without seeing any increases of taxes and without seeing any reductions of services. It is a fine balance. I've realized the community governments can't take on debt. That makes it even harder for them. I'm aware of that. But, you know, again, as to how much, if any, they will need to bear in terms of those costs, it is probably too early to say. I don't know that the city necessarily has -- and I'm speaking particularly about Yellowknife where I know there's been a significant undertaking, but other communities too have had some significant undertakings this fire season. So until we get a full accounting of what each community has spent, looking at what we are now then maybe more likely to see come in from the federal government -- and, again, I want to believe, given the conversations that have been had, something will come. It is not -- it's just too difficult for me to say what we might get from the feds, what individual communities have spent, and what the GNWT's then able to necessarily bear. I do want to -- I gave the long answer because I want to assure the Member that all of those things are under consideration. We're aware of them and, again, I know that the communities -- it's been a topic, it has been a priority of this Assembly for four years to ensure that communities are supported. So that priority hasn't gone anywhere. I just don't quite know how it will turn out at the end of this fire season. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Does the Member for Kam Lake have a short last question and a short last answer?

Yes, I'm wondering if the Minister can make a commitment, then, to keep Members on this side aware of what the GNWT will be requesting for reimbursement on when it comes to municipalities and what they're expecting municipalities to bear on their own when it comes to that cost breakdown just so that we have all the information and we're not finding out down the road that there was an expectation that a municipality take on a large chunk of this, so. But that's my last question. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, certainly, I mean, all financial pieces do ultimately go through the Legislative Assembly, whether it's through the supplementary appropriation process, whether it's through the actual budgeting process that does take place annually in terms of understanding where our contribution dollars are going. So certainly those two processes alone, of course, will continue to take place and, you know, beyond that, again, this is where we get into some challenge of the timing where I presume that we'll be getting some of this information perhaps even when this particular Assembly is no longer together. So, you know, look, I've heard the request to get that accounting between what a community's spent, what is the GNWT spending, and what are we able to support. I've heard it, and I know the Minister responsible for emergencies has heard it as well. So I believe that it's always been our effort to try to maintain sharing. I would certainly say that it would be -- I will try to make sure that I'm doing that. I can point to the example of the spending we've done on the floods over the last two years and the reporting we've done to Members in that regard, I believe monthly, if not quarterly, about what has been spent and updates on that. So with that as being a common example, I would say that would be fine. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Member for Yellowknife North had asked for a high-level breakdown of costs. And I'd like to see that include what went out to local, regional, territorial, and businesses outside the NWT as well because this is something -- is this something, I guess, that the Minister can be provided? Because firefighting, really, in -- when we look at it is beneficial to part of our local and regional and territorial economy, and I think that, you know, when we're looking at it as much as, you know, we -- you know, we don't want to see fires because of the destruction they can cause but it does benefit our economy, and I just want to make sure that we have the numbers there to show that we did everything we could to ensure that local businesses and the businesses of Northwest Territories were given first chance at and the first opportunity in providing services. Thank you.