Mr. Chairman, the employees affected by this will all say that it was included and understood to be part of the negotiations.
Debates of Dec. 7th, 1992
Topics
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Antoine, to the motion to delete.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I just wanted to hear from the Minister if I was correct when I was saying that the $193,000 here in employee benefits, is to cover the Federal Goods and Services Tax on air fares for members of the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and some senior management employees of the Government of the Northwest Territories. If they take the vacation travel assistance in cash, like the new thing that we have done to benefit northern people more to go out on the land and so forth, if these people take their vacation travel in cash and they want to pay their own air fare down south, then the G.S.T. is added. I correct in saying that? If they use the existing government travel warrant then they are not going to have G.S.T. applied to them. Is it correct?
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Just on a matter of process. It is not normal on a matter of a motion to delete, or any motion, to be asking questions, or having dialogue back and forth. I just want to remind Members of that. I am not going to suggest you do not do it but the matter before us is a matter to delete, so I just want you to be aware of that. Mr. Antoine.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that, but then in order to deliberate over this motion, I need to be clear as to what I am voting on. That is the reason why I am asking these questions.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
No, I am not suggesting for one moment that you not ask questions but I do say that the matter is clear. It is a matter to delete. One has to be convinced of deleting, yes or no, and, Mr. Minister, you may choose to answer in your response to the motion to delete.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 322
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Yes, I would just like to make the point again. Even if they used it for other types of service apart from airfare, they would be obliged to pay G.S.T. In any case, the point still remains that because of the change in terminology in the collective agreement, are we obliged to include the G.S.T. when we pay the V.T.A. to the employees? In previous practices the answer was yes because it meant economy airfare plus taxes. The new agreement talks about economy airfare. That is why the question was referred by us back to Justice to ask whether we are able to not pay the G.S.T. on behalf of the employees when we pay a cash pay out. Our own advice was that no we cannot because we have already been in the practice. Our own interpretation of economy airfare includes the G.S.T. Whether you delete it now or not, I think just delays a fight somewhere down the road where it will be put to the test. Our advice is that we are going to lose so we should include it. It is unfortunate that we did
not get that opinion earlier so that we would not have had to debate it here.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
To the motion. Mr. Patterson.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that some Members are concerned that this is a benefit that certainly is not available to the average constituent. This is something that we would like all our constituents to have. I sense in some of the Members' comments that there is a resentment in the idea of a select group of people getting such a benefit when it is not available to the hunters, students or people who do not have the privilege of being a public servant. That is a fair view, Mr. Chairman. I would caution the Members not to get those feelings of unfairness and injustice mixed up with the narrow question that is before us. That narrow question is having agreed to provide vacation travel assistance to our employees -- I will note that it is a lot less than in previous years because it is based on the excursion airfare, not the full fare -- having agreed to provide that benefit and having negotiated in good faith, is there an obligation on the part of the employer to pay all the costs? I think what Mr. Kakfwi is saying is the government has paid this cost in the past. In the opinion of our legal advisors we would not have a case to avoid paying the G.S.T. We would lose the arbitration. These arbitrations cost quite a bit of money. If only because of the previous practice of paying the G.S.T., we are stuck with it. If we are going to uphold the payment of the benefit, which has been negotiated in good faith, then we are stuck with this cost. Without commenting on whether or not we should be paying these kinds of benefits to civil servants, and not all of our constituents, it is my opinion that we would lose the arbitration. We should respect the opinion of the Department of Justice that there is no way out of this, and we should hold our nose and agree to pay this cost because we have no choice in fairness and in law.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Dent, to the motion to delete.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, in spite of your advice a few minutes ago, in order to understand whether I should vote for or against the motion, I need to better understand the ramifications of a vote either way. With your indulgence I have a question I would like to pose, something which was referred to by the Member for Iqaluit. I was going to ask the Minister what is the cost of going to arbitration?
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
To the motion to delete, Mr. Kakfwi.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, I think it is more a matter of whether you respect our opinion or not. We are actually sitting here in public, and I have already stated that we think we would lose arbitration. In our opinion, to go to it now is almost a foregone conclusion. If the Members want to do that we could. It will look a bit sloppy and all for naught. I think we are going to be back later before this committee, asking for probably another supp to cover the costs of paying out V.T.A. to the Union of Northern Workers. That is going to be a substantial amount. There are even a larger percentage of aboriginal and northern people on the payroll there. I try to understand a little bit about what the reason is, but it is awkward. It would have been included earlier but we asked for an internal opinion because we had the same sense as the Member had; if we did not have to, we should not. We are now of the opinion that we have to. We could do it today or a month or two from now. Our sense is that if we were to go to arbitration it would just be delaying the inevitable. Because we have negotiated rather difficult collective agreements this year, we should show some class and go into it holding our heads high and respect the spirit of the negotiations that were conducted earlier this year.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. To the motion to delete, Mr. Ningark.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
John Ningark Natilikmiot
Mr. Chairman. Now that I understand more about this $193,000 and I am aware that it has gone through arbitration, Mr. Chairman, I think there is imminent danger if this motion is passed. There will be more dispute and turmoil between the Teachers' Association and the G.N.W.T. So I will not be supporting the motion. Mr. Chairman, initially I asked if it was negotiated and now I understand that. Thank you.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
To the motion. Mr. Gargan.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
The G.S.T. which everybody pays does not go to this government. It goes to the federal government. Most tax that we pay also goes to the federal government. By supporting this $193,000 it is just money that we are giving to the federal government. It is an expenditure that we are not getting back in any way, shape or form. Also, the other thing is that if you read the statement is says that it is vacation travel assistance to Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and senior management employees. Not everybody is benefiting from the approval of this amount. It is saying that some senior management people and the Teachers' Association are benefitting. That also means that the other employees of the G.N.W.T. are not benefitting out of this G.S.T. I think there are some inconsistencies on who receives this benefit. There is only a small group of people who are benefitting from this.
Mr. Chairman, the vacation travel assistance, everybody fills out a form and they get money for it. These are added money that goes to the employees, if they decide to choose to go to Edmonton on excursion airfare then the G.S.T. is covered, but it they decide to drive down and just keep the money, then that also means that they keep the G.S.T. that is also included in that assistance. I am glad it was not negotiated by the department because we have caught something here. We should be questioning, as Members, and saying whether or not it is fair that we allow certain employees of the government to be excluded from this G.S.T. and we do not allow that to happen to the rest of the general public. That is my point. I hope you support me.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. To the motion to delete.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
An Hon. Member
Question.
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 323
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is defeated.
---Defeated
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 324
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Personnel, operations and maintenance, employees' benefits, not previously authorized $193,000. Agreed?
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 324
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 324
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $235,500. Agreed?
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 324
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Department Of Health
Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 324
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. We will return back to page 18. Health, operations and maintenance, administration, not previously authorized $95,000. Agreed?