This is page numbers 185 - 206 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was capital.

Topics

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 202

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Prior to going line by line through the budget, the standing committee on finance Members have a few general comments they would like to make. My comments are, perhaps, somewhat redundant because we made them in our open speech yesterday. However, for the record, we would like to take this opportunity to reiterate our position.

As everybody knows from the speech made yesterday, education certainly was the most contentious issue in this budget. I want to repeat, again, that the real concern with the Department of Education is to find success in terms of enrolment and the fact that there is little or no reflection of achievement. It was our observation that there is a serious overcrowding problem in Yellowknife high schools that simply needs urgent fixing. Originally, six million dollars was budgeted for an addition and renovation of Sir John Franklin Territorial High School for this Legislative Assembly to vote on. We have been told the department will transfer these funds to build four regional high schools instead. Yet, at the time of discussion with the Department of Education, we were told there was no regional high school policy in place. Frankly, we doubt if there is any long-term policy in place to reflect their education. We intend to be vigilant and bring this to the Minister's attention.

We also know that Members of the Legislative Assembly have not been consulted on the major change in policy. We suspect, at this time, the communities have not blessed it. Our experience and research indicates that high schools in the communities appear not to be working, particularly in the Eastern Arctic.

The Minister of Finance indicates that this budget lives up to prior commitments, and yet previously planned major renovations to kindergarten to grade 12 schools have been dropped completely by the Department of Education from this new budget and new initiatives have been introduced. In addition, while kindergarten to grade 12 schools have not been attended to as they should, the original budget commences a series of construction to the Arctic College building which cost a total of $7.4 million. While the whole future of Arctic College is in some dispute, this committee believes that the first priority should be given to the kindergarten to grade 12 schools that need renovation. This committee is concerned about the state of education, as is the Minister. The statistics demonstrate that the Northwest Territories is not meeting its human resource needs which will affect our capability to implement the "northern hire, northern buy" policy.

With respect to the department's budget, we have recommended that cabinet re-examine educational priorities in light of the evidence of graduation results provided by the department and comparative testing. The department has not presented a convincing solution to the current problem of quality of education in the Northwest Territories as described by committee Members. The committee will focus on the department's action plan and regional high school policy, particularly, when the main estimates come forward.

Yellowknife High School Overcrowding

The Yellowknife high school overcrowding situation should be resolved on an immediate basis. Available funding should focus on kindergarten to grade 12 facilities where needed to satisfy the needs of the students.

The mission of the Department of Education should be focused on producing quality graduates at the grade 12 level first and foremost. This is critical to the success factor that the government will closely monitor. Everybody in the government must work together toward this outcome.

It has been suggested that grades be extended to communities in need while planning for needs in Yellowknife, on the basis that funding saved from other committee recommendations will address Yellowknife's present requirements. Grades should be extended only where it satisfies and is justified by the needs of the students. Construction of the planned new Yellowknife high school for $7.5 million be should fast-tracked, as we suggested in our recommendation for 1993-94. Serious consideration should be given to putting the proposals forward by the local school board.

Cabinet must live up to prior commitments in education before proposing new initiatives. An example of this is renovations to the Hay River high school and the Fort Smith elementary school before enhancements and new renovations take place. The department must develop a credible five-year capital plan and provide it to this committee. Priority in education needs must be placed at the kindergarten to grade 12 level, and Arctic College must develop a strategy that avoids the duplication of services currently delivered at six campuses. Further, the committee recommends that all capital related to Arctic College other than adult education centres be deferred until a plan and strategy has been approved by this Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 202

The Chair James Arvaluk

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Allooloo, please introduce your witnesses.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 202

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my left is my deputy minister, Hal Gerein. To my right is Mr. Jim Moffat, manager of facilities for capital planning.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 202

The Chair James Arvaluk

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. General comments on the capital estimates for the Department of Education. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 203

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to point out some comments with respect to the department's budget. As I indicated in standing committee on finance, I was extremely disappointed with the focus that education was taking. I, along with my colleagues, feel that priority for any department of education should be the focus on kindergarten to grade 12. I totally agree with that. However, at the same time, I recognize that the department has placed an Arctic college system into our Territories. I do not believe they are properly developing it by reflecting the needs of the Territories.

Mr. Chairman, first of all, I want to express my extreme disappointment with the Minister on totally dropping -- in comparison to last year's capital budget which this Legislative Assembly approved at that time -- $100,000 to start renovations on J. B. Tyrrell Elementary School and did not even expend the $100,000 that was approved by this Legislative Assembly. I do not know if we can ask the department what happened to these funds that were approved last year in the budget, but it has not yet been spent according to the document presented.

The other comment I want to make, Mr. Chairman, is that in last year's capital budget there was $2.2 million to be considered for future years for renovations to J. B. Tyrrell Elementary School. Last year's plan has all of a sudden dropped right out of the capital plan. I want to indicate to the Members that, as I said last year, J.B.T. Elementary School is a school I believe is 34 years old, one of the first schools built in the Territories. I believe it is structurally sound. However, I do not believe there is proper air exchange in there, and I do not think that my children and other children in the community have to be taught in an unhealthy environment. And particularly, Mr. Chairman, when this department is looking at placing new schools to replace schools that have been built long after our school was built. I think that is totally unfair, but it also reflects the incapability of proper planning by the Department of Education. I cannot express how dismayed I am with the Department of Education for blatantly dropping the renovations to J.B.T. Elementary School without justification.

Strategy For Arctic College

Mr. Chairman, my other comment that I want to make generally is in regard to Arctic College. I think this is the fourth year, or the fifth year, that this government has decided to postpone planning the academic building in Fort Smith, and I believe the community of Fort Smith is used to this postponement as the government's way of addressing capital plans. So we would not be surprised if it is postponed another year, and I am sure that we can live with it. But I do want to tell you that I am extremely concerned with the way that Arctic College is being developed. I do not believe, as I said yesterday, that this government can afford six campuses that they are planning to place all across the Territories. I do not believe we can afford six vice-presidents, and I think they are diluting the services to the people, and they are doing more of a disservice to the people of the Territories than a service.

I believe that a focus and a strategy have to be developed, and they have to be developed quickly, for Arctic College. I believe that when the strategy is developed, it basically has to reflect the reality that we are living in, in the North, in respect to the financial reality. I do not believe the college strategy should be developed with six campuses.

I said yesterday, and I will say it again today, that there should only be two campuses in the Northwest Territories -- the original one that started off in Fort Smith, and one that has been created in Iqaluit. I would not support any other campuses in the Territories. The infrastructure to be able to try to address six campuses -- financially we cannot afford it, and when it gets to the point where we are going to be diluting services to the people, I think we should wake up and come to reality and only allow ourselves to get back to the two campuses that should be addressing the needs of the Territories.

Mr. Chairman, I did want to indicate that I am disappointed at the fact that the Arctic College applied arts building has been postponed another year; however, I do recognize the need for a strategy to be developed and I am willing to make that sacrifice in getting assurance that this Department of Education is going to develop a strategy to address Arctic College which reflects the financial and the fiscal reality that we are in today.

Funding Priorities Questioned

Mr. Chairman, with that I did want to point out a couple of my concerns, particularly with the Department of Education, particularly in respect to the schools. When I get back to the primary grades again, I find it somewhat surprising that all of a sudden, in comparison to last year's budget -- and I keep looking to last year's budget because I just cannot seem to find it -- that there are newly created renovations for a school requirement in Pond Inlet and there was no planning for any school in Pond Inlet according to last year's budget. There was only planning for a student hostel in last year's budget in Pond Inlet, but nothing for a school. But all of a sudden this year in our budget we are asked to propose planning funding for a school in Pond Inlet. This is the reason for passing motions such as long-term capital planning, that they do not only reflect the needs of the Ministers that the departments are run by, and this happens to be the case. Therefore, I would strongly urge the Minister to reconsider what their previous plan was, to follow it through according to need and not according to political wishes of the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate some comments in response to my request, on some of the comments that I made. However, I do have one specific question for the Minister with respect to Arctic College. It appears that last year there was some $700,000, I believe, that was designated for Arctic College for the applied arts building. It is obvious that all of that funding was not expended and we are going to carry it over to this year. I would like to ask the Minister how much he has spent with respect to the applied arts building that his department has been planning for the past six years? According to last year's budget, Mr. Chairman, it was $400,000. In years prior to last year he spent $260,000 on this arts and library building, and this year he spent an additional $135,000. So we have spent $395,000 on this anticipated applied arts and library building, and I would like to know, after expending this amount, according to last year's capital documents and this year's capital documents, why was his plan to defer the applied arts and library building placed in once again, even before the committee pointed out the need to focus on kindergarten to 12? Thank you

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 203

The Chair James Arvaluk

Are there any other general comments in the details of capital? Mr. Minister, would you like to respond to Mrs. Marie-Jewell's question?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 203

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Mr. Chairman, as you heard in my opening remarks, in consultation with the standing committee on finance, on their advice with respect to the applied arts building, we will be deferring the expenditure for Arctic College in order to address the desire for -- to put priorities on the kindergarten to grade 12 educational system throughout the Northwest Territories. In 1991-92 we carried over $285,000 to 1992-93 for the applied arts building in Fort Smith.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair James Arvaluk

Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, it is obvious that the Minister has not been listening and he has not received my point. Mr. Chairman, in the 1991-92 capital estimates it has been shown that the Department of Education had already spent $260,000 on the applied arts and library building. In 1991-92 they proposed to this House, requesting approval, which they received, of $400,000 for this applied arts and library building. The Minister just indicated that he carried over $285,000; therefore, he did spend about $115,000. His intention to defer this project, then, came in before the standing committee on finance's recommendation, and I would like to know why.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Mr. Chairman, mainly because the department did not have enough money to complete the project. Thank you.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Member for Thebacha.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How can the Minister indicate that they did not have enough money to complete the project when he had $400,000 approved by this Legislative Assembly for his department to address the project and he only spent $115,000? Thank you.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Minister.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We only had $285,000 left to complete the project. We knew at that point we would not have enough money to complete the project, and the tender documents would have been quite a bit higher than what we carried over, so we deferred the project until such time that we were into the new year. Thank you.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, is the Minister indicating to this House that it was his intention to defer that project prior to SCOF's recommending that it be deferred?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

No, Mr. Chairman.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to disagree with what the Minister is indicating to me. I want to explain it once again to the Minister. In 1990-91 the Department of Education expended $260,000 toward the applied arts and library building. In 1991-92 they got approval from this House to expend an additional $400,000 on the arts and library building. Then, Mr. Chairman, out of that $400,000 that was approved by this House they only expended $115,000, so therefore they had a surplus in that particular area of $285,000, and his intention was to carry over this surplus and work on the applied arts building, so therefore he was actually deferring the project in comparison to last year's capital budget. So this deferral for this arts and library building was taking place before SCOF recommended to the Minister that it be done, and I would like to know why.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would have to check into the records of how the moneys were spent and plans for the applied arts building for Fort Smith, and I would like to take the question and get back to the Member as soon as I can on those figures that she is alluding to. The time that she is talking about is before my time, and the department would have to go back into their figures for prior years as well as what actually happened when we had to carry over some of the funds. Thank you.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Are there any further general comments? Member for Thebacha.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 204

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask if we can take a break until I can get an answer from the Minister, so I move that we request a break until we can get the information provided to this House, until we proceed further with the Department of Education.