Thank you. Mr. Minister, did you have any remarks to make.

A very short one. Mr. Gargan is talking about two things. School achievement indicator program and school inclusive program. On the first one he was talking about, perhaps it is not a general comment. It is a rather private and specific one, I would invite Mr. Gargan to step outside.

---Laughter

He should meet with me privately and we could deal with that particular issue, I know what he is talking about and I do not want to respond to it here because it is specific to him.

As far as the inclusive schooling, there are grade three students, or grade five students with grade eight students in the small class, because they are the same age group, going to school with their peers. They are not necessarily being demoted or anything like that. They are in grade three and they will be in grade three for that year until they pass, but it is this all inclusive schooling policy has been developed that the older kids are not going to school in the same grade six students of a much younger students, this is a matter of respecting their age group.

As far as the school achievement indicator program, I think, I should tell you a little background on this one. In the spring of 1989, the Council of Ministers of Education Canada undertook the development of the program designed to collect information that will help jurisdictions determine how effective their education systems are. Two types of indicators of school effectiveness are being developed. These first will show the involvement of young people in the education system as reflected in the participation, retention and graduation rates.

The second group of indicators will provide information about the achievement of the students at the age of 13, and 16, in the areas of reading, writing, and mathematics. So, what it simply means is this, with this indicator program we will find out where our students are, some of the selected students are. That will hopefully show us generally as to what the Department of Education is failing, or not doing enough, and where it can improve itself. Is the curriculum too hard? Is it too easy? Is it not making the student achieving the level of quality of education that is required by government policy, or the education policy? This is to help the department formulate what we can improve on in education.

Thank you, general comments, Mr. Gargan.

I do want to step outside. Mr. Chairman, disregarding my own personal situation, the statistics are numbers, so based on that, what I am saying is that I do not have anything. In order to resolve this, I have to be satisfied that I have testing material of whatever level it is to then say that this is the testing material that was used for the grade six or the grade eight or whatever the case may be, but I do not see that, and that is what my concern is. At the end of each year, students in Fort Providence, or parents in Fort Providence, go to Elizabeth Ward School, and they show them the report card, but they do not show them anything as a result of how they determined how the student did compared to other

students. This is my concern. I could not see anything that says that so, I always question then, how do they do like that? How in could he fail, or how in could he advance?

Just remind the honourable Member to ensure that his words are properly used. Thank you.

Oh, yes, I am sorry about that. My apologies. What is the determining factor, I guess, in determining how the students advance, or do not advance? Now that is where my concern is, because I have got no indicators, and I always question how you fail, and so can the Minister enlighten me on this, because I believe I have a concern that perhaps parents or Members would have. If we do not have a testing system, how do we determine if students advance or do not advance?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think because of the way it is arranged, that I would like to have Mr. Gerein to answer how it is dictated.

Thank you. Mr. Gerein.

Mr. Chairman, the achievement of each student, and we should have prescribed in each set of curriculum documents pertaining to each subject offered at that grade level. We can provide the honourable Member with the information that he is asking for in terms of kindergarten, grade one, and so on, in terms of actual material presented to the students for learning, and what kind of levels they need to achieve in order to progress a year at a time through the system. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan, general comments.

So, Mr. Chairman, in what you are saying, your response, tells me then that we do not really have any type of testing system. We have material, based on a checklist on whether he has completed this book, and if he completed this book good, you can check it off, and it goes to the next book sort of a thing, as opposed to having maybe ten kindergarten students take a similar test on all the skills that they learned through the years, to determine whether they advance or not.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Gargan is right. We have the same materials for everyone, but we have different methods of examining or testing, which have been designed by the teachers. I suppose what you are asking really for is the department to type exams rather than individual school exams. If that is the case, then that is open for discussion with the division of the board, I guess. Mr. Chairman, just before I go on, or conclude with that statement, I believe that you have requested to have my presentation be distributed to Members. If you want, I can do that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you. I would think that perhaps the most important part of entering into the education system is a kindergarten class, the most important class. This is where you determine the future of this child. Anything that happens within the class will not be noticed by the child, and whether you call it advancement, or promotion, it is going to be also observed by the young mind. How do you determine if we do not have any kind of testing methods, the level of achievement, with the special needs of a student. You can fool some people some of the time, but you cannot fool people all of the time. I am just wondering, if a child is to repeat a grade, or repeat it repeatedly, how do you determine whether or not there is something wrong with the child? Do you determine that at the beginning of the year, so that you do not have to run it through a situation where maybe a child has problems and maybe some other learning method would be suitable? How do you determine that?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since this is being developed, maybe before my time I would like Mr. Gerein to answer that one again.

Mr. Gerein.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are prepared to spend as much time as necessary with the honourable Member to explain the details of the education system at the kindergarten level so that he may gain a full understanding of what is going on as he approaches a local education authority to deal with the progress of his child. I think that would be worthwhile in itself.

Mr. Speaker, the teachers use a variety of testing methods. They are professionals, we do not prescribe the tests at the grade one levels. I believe we have some kind of standardized testing at grade three, six, nine and 12, but we do not prescribe the examination of testing methods between those levels. We try to do something more common in order that we can assess progress across the Territories at grades three, six, nine and 12. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Yes. Okay. If, Mr. Chairman, standardized testing is done from grade three, six or nine, or whatever grade, starting from grade three, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know, from K to two then, what are the testing methods or criteria used to determine whether or not a student advances or whether or not there is a learning disability. Or, if he does not advance, whether or not there are some problems that cannot be determined by the teacher.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes. A very quick answer to anything before grade three is that in some schools there are exclusive aboriginal programs so you can not really standardize everything throughout the Northwest Territories. However, in grade three and even before you get into grade three, every day determines anything unusual about that particular student. If there are indications somewhere, then, of course, the parents are called by the teacher and the principal and they discuss if the parents notice, even at home, if there is a possibility of a learning disability.

This is done every day, and is the only test for that. These are done according to how, for example, that student is receptive to the arrangement in comparison to other students. Thank you.