Mr. Chairman, yes, that is true. We base enrolment procedure from the last year. However, if there is a need for adjustment because of unexpected increase then sometimes the board will have to handle that, if it is not too much. Otherwise, we have to go back to the Financial Management Board to get additional funding.

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Koe.

Yes. It does not address the issue of how you estimate, why do we all of a sudden excess amount of students show up in Inuvik? It seems like the department is not prepared for this influx of new students, it does not make sense to me. Maybe he could address that issue.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister what formula they use.

Thank you. Mr. Gerein.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In some cases the enrolments are, indeed, up and in those cases we do need to go for supplementary resources. Most times, there is an opportunity for adjustment and the board is required to make adjustments across the schools within its divisional area because the student populations change from year to year.

There are cases, though, I believe, where the enrolments are unexpected when we end up with recovery of students coming back into high school, or into certain grades which are very difficult to forecast. So, it is a bit of a reactive situation, but in other situations the boards can benefit, in fact, from having monies based on their previous year's enrolment, because we do not go back, usually, and adjust it down.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

So, can I ask then, what steps are being taken to resolve the current crisis in Inuvik?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we will be receiving a recommendation from the board asking for the additional resources required, at which time we will have to go forward to our Financial Management Board to seek them. Thank you.

Thank you. Just for the purposes of addressing the matter of Mr. Koe, on the more specific items with regard to identifiable issues like schools and high schools, the questions could be better probably addressed in the detail. I just wanted to raise that point, because we are under general comments, do you have any general comments, Mr. Koe?

I will take your advice, Mr. Chairman. Under the departmental overview, and the alleged document, I know not by page by page you slapped my wrists again. I note that the department has a northern training and employment register called Enter. I also know that other agencies within the government have programs similar to enter federal and territorial departments. In Inuvik, the C.I.C. has their own computer log of people that they deal with, the native women have their log of people they deal with, advanced education had a system, and I know the territorial government has gone through several types of programs such as Enter. I guess my concern is that in Inuvik, and other regions across the north, where populations are so small, we are dealing with such a specific segment, and yet, everybody has their own log, or computer system, of the same people, and there is no integration. I am wondering if the department, along with other government agencies, are looking at trying to integrate these different systems so that we can go to any one agency, and they will have the same information on the individuals? It just does not make sense for every agency to have their own Enter system.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that is one of our main objectives, to integrate the advanced education management information system that Mr. Koe is talking about, a certain monitory and retracking system called S.M.A.R.T. A northern training and employment history entry apprenticeship and training services management system to improve program analysis compatibility and evaluation. We have that in our objective.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe. Thank you. General comments, Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess maybe I could be accused of being old fashioned, but I am not convinced that the amount of dollars that we have been expanding in the Department of Education, and the fact that we are getting 25 percent turn out is satisfactory.

I am not convinced that we should continue to spend enormous countless sums of money, and the building of schools -- last year I think it was $43 million dollars -- without some second opinions, and some second guessing as it relates to how successful that type of program is going to be.

It is incomprehensible to me, when I look at some of this statistical information as it relates to grade 12, that over a five year period in some of these communities, we have only generated some three or four successful graduates in grade 12.

Something is fundamentally wrong, and we have to ask ourselves that. I am not talking about spending less money. I am talking about, are we spending our money in the right way and the right manner, and is it getting the kind of results that we all want? Whether it is my kids, or your kids, we are all affected by the quality of education. Society as a whole is affected by it.

There are those of different opinion, and I believe on a number of occasions they have expressed it, particularly when I talk about my disappointment with the kind of return, if you want, for the investment. Clearly, in my opinion, anyway, we need to look very closely at what we are doing. The whole future of the north hinges upon an educated society, whether you are here, whether you are in Ontario, whether you are anywhere else in the free world.

Can I continue, with the kind of results we have got, and expect the other policies initiatives of this government to work, whether it is the Business Incentive Policy, or whether it is getting northerners into the jobs? You have got to go back to the basics, and we have to ask ourselves, "are we going to continue to spend $183 million on the one hand, $40 or $50 million on an annual basis for new infrastructure, $30 million for Arctic College?" This initiative affects us all, and all I am asking for is a debate on the issue. I do not want to be accused of being an education basher because I question what is going on, I have got a valid right here to ask a fundamental question. Is the education that our kids are getting, and the cost of this government, having the impact that we expect it to have?

In my opinion, it is not doing exactly that. Out of the 25 percent of kids that graduate out of grade 12, I would be interested to know how many are aboriginal, for example. How many come from the west, and how many come from the east? If we are going such a damn good job, excuse me, can somebody tell me how come all the outsiders in the government in my community keep getting the jobs? If we are doing such a good job, then how come we have not got the carpenters, the butchers, the bakers, and the candlestick makers? We are running out of time, Mr. Allooloo, and we are spending a lot of money trying to get results? We are simply running out of time. We need a review. We need to take a look at what is going on, and we need to ask, are we getting value for our money. It is not a question of reducing the budget. It is a question of looking at how we are spending it, and is it the acquisition of assets? Is it building buildings, or is it the building people, in my opinion, we should look into building people. We need to take a complete review of what is going on, and I believe that is being undertaken. We have already said to the new Minister, that we are prepared to give him that time, but it cannot go on forever. We have to find some ways and means to improve what we are doing out there in terms of the students, and our children, not just for today, but for tomorrow, and for the next day.

Just for the record, I have got to express, my kids were educated in Cambridge Bay, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit, Pond Inlet, and Yellowknife. I have no objections to the school system in terms of teachers or infrastructure, but something is fundamentally wrong. I do not know what it is, but I am prepared to work hard to try to identify what it is. I tell you, as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance, I cannot continue to support large expenditures of money if we are not going to get a better return for our investment. Thank you.

Thank you. While I did not deal with the matter of language, I just asked the Members to be vigilant about their remarks and the words that they use in the Committee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is in the report. We agree 100 percent with Mr. Todd that the review was done in 1982, which I talked about in my opening remarks. This is 1992, ten years later. We are proposing that, in fact, we have asked S.C.O.F. to make a presentation on this and to debate the strategic plan that we are developing on this very issue that Mr. Todd is talking about. We completely welcome this debate that we can develop, not just here in the House, but also in the communities as to what would be the best way to fulfill these objectives that every one of us, I think, agree to.

General comments. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make a few general comments on education. I too, feel the same way as my colleague here, Mr. Todd, in regards to the education in the north, and also welcome the Minister's comment that there is going to be a review. I just want to say that the review should include everybody in the community that is concerned. Not only the education councils and the board members, I think everybody that has children and everybody who is interested in education should have an opportunity to participate in the review because there is major concern.

I have got some specific concerns about education. The grade extension that has happened in my constituency, in the community of Fort Simpson is welcome, and it has been what we have wanted to do for many years. As a result of that great extension, for your information, I have been told that in the high school, there are 95 students total. I think 17 of them are in grade 12. So, you know, it is 17 students that originally would have gone away from the community. These students are not all from Simpson, they come from the surrounding smaller communities.

What happens out of Simpson is that, formerly, in the past, students from the smaller communities, for example like Wrigley, would go to school in Simpson, and then when they were ready to go to high school they would move on to Yellowknife. So, they would do a double move before they had even finished their grade 12. As a result, a lot of students drop out in the meantime. It is one of the reasons, I feel, that this has happened. With the grade extension in Simpson, it provides, at least for the smaller communities, just one move away from the community, so it is an improvement on what has happened in the past.

I just want to also say that the school in Fort Simpson, there are more students enrolled this year than anticipated because they have got a higher number of grade 11s also enrolled from the surrounding communities. So, the funding that was allocated to them is not sufficient enough, and they have run into growing pains, growing problems. I certainly hope the Department would help them out and help them in paying for the education of the students there.

The other thing I want to mention, specifically in Fort Simpson, is quality of education. For years, I have been concerned about the quality of education that is provided to the students in the communities. The quality seems to be higher in Yellowknife than in the smaller communities. I do not know for what reason, the only reason I could think of is that the smaller communities are, again, ignored for the bigger centres.

It still exists today. Those kinds of concerns should not be left until a review is done because the reviews take a long time. Some concerns are very immediate in the smaller communities, and those should be addressed. I am talking about some of the people that fall through the cracks in the education system. There is quite a high number of dropouts from the smaller communities and some people are grown and have families now, they want to return to school, but they do not have the grade eight or whatever is required for adult education programs.

They do not have numbers in the smaller communities to warrant an adult educator in some of these communities. I was wondering if the Department of Education could become innovative, and look at different ways of approaching these problems by, let us say, having a roving adult educator using the modern technology of computer, or fax type of education. We are in this day of age where this could be accomplished, and that is another reason why I have been pursuing more telephone lines into Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake, and Jean Marie, because they do not have the technology to provide this type of distance education.

That is a twofold kind of approach why I have been pursuing more communication lines going into the smaller communities. The people who fall through the cracks there, I am really concerned about them. I think that if some sort of a plan would be developed to take care of them for, let us say it might take just a few years to scoop them up and upgrade enough so they could go into the regular system. Again, if the department could be innovative and look at different ways of trying to deal with these specific problems, I would really appreciate that.

A final specific problem that I have is that, it is kind of personal too in a way, in Simpson even though it is kind of a regional high school the grade eight and nine have been combined. There are students who have grade eight and grade nine are in the same room, and they take some courses that are the same, and some that are not the same. I went through the system and I know that grade nine and grade 10 are totally different. I am concerned that these students might not have the quality of education that they are entitled to by combining the grades.

They say that they do not have enough numbers, but I know that the total number is about 25, and if it has to do with policy, policies could be changed. If it is a designated regional high school at least each grade should have a teacher, irregardless of the numbers. There are all kinds of supporting arguments about why there should be two grades rather than a combination. Education is improving in my constituency ever since I have become aware of the communities. Back in 1972, I toured the communities in my region, in different capacities in my work, in community development, and I know that most of these communities have come a long way.

They still have to go quite a long way, yet. The present form of education is not adequate enough. Even though it has improved, I think there is a lot more room for improvement. We have very good teachers, very good staff in some areas, but still I think there is something wrong with the outcome. There are a lot of students going into the school system into kindergarten and grade one but very few graduating at the end. I am very concerned about that, and I think that is a priority for the department to look at how we could have more students graduating at the end with quality education. That, I think, should be the goal. That is all I have to say for now. Mahsi.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, do you have any remarks?

Mr. Chairman, just a short one. In respect to qualitative education, that is completely debatable. We could debate from region to region, from divisional board to divisional board, because some people will consider qualitative education on the basis that we will, very smoothly, enter into post-secondary education from high school.

Other divisional boards and societies feel that qualitative education should include cultural programs and knowledges. That sometimes may not prepare them without additional lessons or credits to be taken in order to place them in the post-secondary. This is very much debatable.

Although we are using the standard that has been adopted, like, improve the quality of the education in the N.W.T., the quality of the education depends upon highly skilled teachers, quality curriculum, etc. This is, of course, the Department of Education's objectives. I am not here to judge what the quality of education is that Mr. Antoine is talking about because he has a very good case, whatever the quality of education is best suited for that particular region.

I would like to have that talked about more, especially in committee meetings and the public at home. In terms of distance education, I am very encouraged by Mr. Morin's statement this morning, that he has spoken to NorthwesTel to try to determine how the small communities Mr. Antoine is talking about, can be serviced with the telephone system. If that becomes a reality, then we probably, with the technology that we have now, can introduce distance education. Especially those who are in the higher grades, or who have dropped out of school, or wish to attend the adult education programs.

In terms of combining the grade eight and nine, or seven and eight, we fund the divisional boards on the per capita basis, per student basis. For example, $218 per student in O & M, and $78 for culture inclusion program, I am using this as a very small example. If there is eight grade eights and eight grade nines, then it is up to the divisional board how they would like to place those students because we place them only on the per capita basis, per student basis.

Again, how do we make the students successful in the area of completing high school from those who have enrolled in kindergarten or grade one to get them into grade 12. I think that I said during the S.C.O.F. meetings, that in order to have successful students, you cannot just drive the Department of Education to get successful programs, we agree that we should but it takes other concerned citizens, the parents, the society, of course the teachers, the leaders, and businesses. It takes everybody to have a successful education program, especially at the community level.

I cannot ask for more, other than it takes everybody, the department can finance it, the divisional board can administer it, but it takes society to make it successful. I cannot stress it any further than that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.