Has the community been approached with regard to the new method that you are referring to?

Mr. Minister.

I do not know, we would have to check that.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Ningark.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am concerned the regional employees are not travelling into the smaller communities because of the budget cutback.

I think the communities should be assisted by M.A.C.A., as much as possible, to ensure that the hamlets, and the municipalities, are operational. The hamlets can get into a lot of problems if they are not assisted by the regional offices of M.A.C.A.

In regard to the recreational budget, I think the maintenance budget also has been cut for the recreational facilities in the communities. Yes, I am in agreement with the reasons for the reduction, and because hamlets do not have adequate funding as of now, also because they have to have water services and sewage services. I believe that when a hamlet does not have adequate operational money, the services would be cut down in the water and sewage services area.

I am aware of the fact that when they do not have adequate funding or operational money, even though they have had services four days a week for water and sewage, then when they do not have enough funding, they would have to cut the services down. I just wanted to bring this up. I do not have a question at this time. Afterward, when we start seeing the subdivisions in the book, then I will probably have a question.

Thank you. General Comments. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think, looking at the Main Estimates for 1992-93, looking at the departmental overview, and the mandate goals and objectives, I must say that I do not think this department is fulfilling these mandates and these goals and objectives in the communities of Jean Marie River, Trout Lake, Nahanni Butte and Wrigley. I think it does in Fort Simpson, and to an extent, in Fort Liard. As far as I am concerned, the goals are not being met, according to the way it is written in this book. I want to qualify that by saying, according to your goals the mandate is such that the department is responsible for the development of local governments, responsive and responsible to residents, with

sufficient legal authority and resources to carry out municipal responsibilities, to provide for public programs and services essential to a good community life.

I think there is an attempt by the department to do this, but there is a lot of room for improvement. I say this because, if you go into these communities, such as we did on the Standing Committee on Finance, we went to Nahanni Butte, we were told that there is a lot of room for improvement in that community. I know that you wrote me a letter, but I would like to see those things take place immediately. Why have these conditions existed this long? You have a big budget, you have the manpower, and your department should do it. Why are these communities left in the back, and left to struggle on their own?

I have been to communities in the north. It is not fair if you compare these communities to other communities in the north, it is not fair at all to these people. You are responsible for these people, and you should carry out these goals and objectives that are written down here.

According to your objectives your department is supposed to complete and implement a departmental indication and training strategy, directed at municipal councils, administration, departmental staff, education, sport and municipal governments. I would like to see this happen.

I know these four little communities are unincorporated, according to M.A.C.A. guiding principles, but they are still communities, and there are still people living there. The chief and band councils are the ones in authority there, but there is no education, and very little training strategies directed at them today. I would like to see that improved. What we need in these communities is to train the leaders, and to be aware of a lot of different issues that are coming around, so that they can deal with, and improve the communities effectively. They need their resources there, to help them out. You should see some of the, I know this is not capital, but you should see some of the equipment that they have there. They have been promised over and over again, and are repairing old run down equipment. If you send the old equipment to other communities, that are used to having new equipment, they will never accept these conditions. I would like to see a lot of improvement in this department to these four communities that I mentioned.

It may very well be because of the staff that you have in the region, that are running the show there. I think you should take a real close look at the superintendent of M.A.C.A. that you have in Fort Simpson. I know that whenever I raise a concern, and I ask for briefing notes, he sends me briefing notes, but that does not help. It may sound very well to you, but to us in the communities, it is the same thing over, and over again.

What I am requesting is that you take a real serious look at the way the personnel and the department work in my area, and I really want to see improvement in these communities. They need that. It is long overdue, and I think that it is about time that you take a real meaningful look at the way these things have been carried out in these communities, and take serious action for providing the programs and services that are outlined in your departmental mandate, goals, and objectives, then apply it right down to the letter, because it is what these communities are entitled to.

There are a lot of those specific areas that I probably would like to address, but I will wait and address them as they come up in the different activity summaries, and different tasks. That is all I have to say for my general comments for now. Mahsi.

General comments? Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to make a few comments on M.A.C.A., as it relates to local and community governments. I have always believed that self-government starts at home. I know the change in direction from the government started way back in the late 1960s, early 1970s, when even the department names were changing, when we moved from the federal government responsibilities, to territorial, from Department of Local Government to what it is today.

I was one of the first settlement secretaries hired in Fort McPherson, when we changed from the old area administrators to settlement secretary, and settlement managers. Communities have developed very rapidly, from settlement councils, to hamlets, to towns, and we have one city. Sometimes this development is too fast.

One that I am very familiar with, a town which continues to struggle through various boom and bust cycles, and when things are good, there is a lot of money available, and developments take place very rapidly, but people are still left with the bills to sort out after a major development. We wonder what happens, and how it happens? The point here, is that assistance is needed for communities like this to guide them through these times, and more emphasis is needed, not to take away from communities that need basic infrastructure, and basic development, but existing and larger communities also need that help.

You cannot have self-government without people, and you need to continue, as Mr. Zoe has put it, with people development. You have to have people that are going to manage the affairs of the communities, and they need to be trained in finances, decision-making, land management, recreation, and all the components in running communities. People have to be trained, and we have to continue putting resources into the types of programs that are being offered by Arctic College, and other training institutions.

One of my colleagues has been very vocal in supporting M.A.C.A., as a lead agent for the development of self-government. I would like to state, and we mentioned in a motion earlier, in the west, especially in my area, that we put a strong emphasis on the communities to do a lot of this self-government work. Our situations are quite different than the east, in that we have band and the tribal councils, and in two situations, we have land claim agreements, which have specific conditions and terms for self-government.

On page 13-3 of the budget, there is a reference in there, on the environment, that we are working on, and the department is working under. One statement, I would like to focus on, is the one that says these local governments, clients of the department, are being challenged by aboriginal land claims, and demands for new form of political and constitutional development.

I hope those statements are made in a positive mode, and not a negative mode. I think it is a sign of the times. There has been rapid developments in our lifetime, mine especially, and we have seen great changes, and as changes go, I think it is not necessarily bad.

In terms of sport and recreation, again, I get very concerned about the quality of life of our residents, in terms of what they do with their leisure time. On one hand, government is increasing the social and health funding, and decreasing the sport and recreation funding, and there seems to be an anomaly here that maybe if the trend were reversed, we would not have social and health problems if people were kept busy.

I would just like to make those comments, and I, too, will have some specific questions and concerns when we get to the various activities. Mahsi.

Thank you. General comments. Does this committee wish to go page by page? Page 13-12, directorate, total O and M $4,225,000. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Member could clarify his question. We did not get his question.

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Minister.

Yes, we are. 13-12. I thought the Member said 15-12.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I am not sure what the Member is asking.

On page 13-12, directorate. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will get our Finance Director to answer that question.

Thank you. Mr. France.