Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi.

I would like to recognize in the gallery today, students of the Arctic College academic studies program, and their instructors, Marvin DeGeorgio and Cindy Cook.

---Applause

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The first year of the Construction Worker Training Program is well under way. This program will increase the number of northerners with the recognized skills required to work on N.W.T. building construction projects. It was developed by the N.W.T. Construction Association, and the Department of Public Works, with funding and technical assistance from D.P.W., M.A.C.A., Education, and the Housing Corporation. The program is administered by the N.W.T. Construction Association. The program has 42 instructional modules covering a range of skills.

From this construction season, the program is being delivered on projects in three communities, the Fort Simpson Student Hostels, the Pangnirtung Community Learning Centre, and two Coppermine projects, the new education centre, and the renovations, and additions to the health centre. There are 11 participants in the program this year.

The trainees must all be local residents. They are paid an hourly wage. The trainees spend about three weeks in the classroom, and about four months on the job, working under the supervision of a qualified instructor. Trainee candidates are identified by advanced education employment counsellors, in consultation with community representatives. The counsellor then meets with the contractor, who selects the most suitable trainees for that project.

Currently all trainees have completed the classroom sessions, and are now working on site. All reports, to date, from the contractors, trainees, and participating communities, have been positive.

Thank you.

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to take the opportunity today to express my disappointment, and the apparent inability of our Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, to answer, what I found, to be the simplest question posed to him.

Mr. Speaker, and honourable Members in this House, you will recall yesterday I posed a simple question to the Minister. All I wanted to know, Mr. Speaker, was when will this document, "Working Towards a Common Future", which has been tabled in this House, be brought before the committee of the whole, for discussions by Members of this House?

The Minister, in my opinion, rambled on and on, for several minutes using up our time allocated in question period, and commenting on everything, except the question I had asked.

I still do not know the answer, Mr. Speaker. I am wondering whether the Minister does? Mr. Speaker, this commission was developed in 1991. Many different constitutional scenarios have been deliberated nationally and within the territories, since the initial preparation of the Commission Report. If it is not the wish of the Minister, and the Cabinet, to deal with this report, then why does the Minister not say so to the public? Why does he tell this House whether he intends to put the Commission Report on the shelf, until these other constitutional initiatives reach a clearer conclusion.

I feel that it is totally unacceptable, and clearly irresponsible of the Minister, to phrase his returns to our questions in a fashion that skirts around the issue in this House. If he has made the mistake about pushing ahead with the commission, at the time he did, knowing that there were other constitutional developments on the horizon, then why can he not just admit it now? By continually rambling and avoiding our questions, the Minister's conduct totally frustrates the Members, takes up valuable time in the House, and accomplishes literally nothing.

Thank you.

---Applause

I would like for all Members to know there is nothing in the rules that dictate, either what a Minister says, or how long a Minister takes to answer a question. I just wanted to make that very clear. Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, I spoke in the House about my concern, about the transitive programs, and services, from the federal government to the G.N.W.T.

Recent decisions of the federal government have made it clear that they are increasing their efforts to axe programs and services in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, this trend, and our government's apparent inability to negotiate adequate fiscal terms, for the delivery of transfer programs, causes me a great deal of concern, in light of the new constitutional package.

I am a strong supporter of the constitutional package. There should be no mistake about that. On October 26, I will vote "yes". However, a great many elements of the package, that are critical to the north, are being left for discussions in future First Ministers' conferences.

This causes me further concern when I see that several things were put in the package, and others were left out. For instance, the constitutional package provides for a decentralization of powers. It identifies sectors such a labour market training, culture, mining, and housing, as matters within exclusive provincial jurisdictions. This provision leads the way for the Northwest Territories to take over these programs, if we are ready. However, frameworks for funding for these programs, are very much up in the air. Federal spending was not protected in areas such as job creation programs.

Mr. Speaker, these are not minor details. Another crucial area still to be finalized, is the development of a so-called Canada common market. However, the proposed accord could clearly destroy our Northern Preference Policy. The Government Leader says she is hopeful that the First Ministers will come around on this issue, but by the time this is discussed October 26 will have passed us all by.

Mr. Speaker, we should not have allowed these outstanding items to be placed on the back burner. These constitutional questions require hard thought, and positive action, on the part of our territorial leadership. We need to see a territorial framework for further discussions and negotiations, and we need to see it brought before this House for discussion. Thank you.

Members' statements, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am proud today to be able to rise and inform the House about exciting developments, and the development of the arts industry in my constituency. The 1992 Pangnirtung print collection will be opening September 25. That is tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, for the first time in four years.

Five years ago our print shop had to close due to the lack of funds. People were worried that perhaps we had seen the death of commercial print making in Central Baffin. The commitment of our artists, and the unique and exciting approach to market development and distribution has now lead to the rebirth of this important economic and cultural activity.

In 1991, the Uqqurmiut Artists' Association was able to purchase Pangnirtung print shop equipment and inventory, and reopen its print making facility in the former workshop building. Artists were so committed to seeing the return of this industry, that they produced the 1992 collection on their own time, without wages. The collection has come together perfectly, Mr. Speaker. Tomorrow it will open at 22 galleries from Lunenberg, Nova Scotia, to San Francisco. This year's collection features 35 images by some of the community's best known artists. Their work is simply wonderful.

Honourable Members, and art lovers throughout the north, will be able to view these limited editions prints at Northern Images store in Yellowknife, Whitehorse and Inuvik, where they are on sale.

Later today, I will table a listing of dealers who are showing our 1992 collection all across North America, and artists who have contributed. Mr. Speaker, credit for this successful venture must go first, and foremost to the talented artists and hard working board of the Uqqurmiut Artists' Association. Also, and to be honest Mr. Speaker, I never thought I would hear myself say this, I want to give the big compliments to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, for the manner in which his department has contributed to the success of Uqqurmiut.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays, please proceed, Ms. Mike.

Also, I believe that with the kind of funding, assistance, and support received from E.D. & T., it is possible for aboriginally managed businesses to succeed, with minimal interference from the funding agencies.

I hope that Uqqurmiut success will continue to be an example for many locally operated business ventures in small communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Members' statements. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, like all Members in this House, I am very concerned about the current fiscal crunch facing the Northwest Territories. Last week, we received the news that the federal government has rejected all requests for the reinstatement of funding for social housing, and essential programs in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, I am concerned because every year we have less, and less money to spend on essential programs such as housing, social and health programs, or legal aid, yet the demand for these programs is increasing at breakneck speed. Sooner or later, demands have to outstrip supply.

It is not enough to say that we will do more with less. We have to look at how our resources are spent, and look at ways to better distribute them to those most in need. This means that everyone must make sacrifices. One area that I have spoken about before in this House, is the benefits package available to public servants. As we all are aware, pay and benefits for public servants represent almost one third of our annual budget. I believe that some of these benefits no longer accurately portray the realities of the north.

As the Standing Committee on Finance notes, the current package is a remnant of the days when the north was considered an outpost by southern Canada.

Mr. Speaker, some of the benefits that I speak of include the northern housing allowance, vacation/travel assistance, and the payment for moving expenses for public servants who quit, and are leaving the Northwest Territories.

Today, of course, things are different. The larger centres are developing housing markets, direct air connections, and with the rest of Canada, the most modern of convenience. Just recently Yellowknife saw the opening of the new McDonalds. Surely, a sign of a modern city. I believe it is time to revisit some of the benefits available to public servants with an eye to redesign them to meet the times, and the fiscal situation of this government.

Mr. Speaker, I would hope, and believe that this can be done in concert, with the appropriate units to reach a fair and equitable agreement.

I am sorry, Mr. Gargan. Your time has expired. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent to continue my statement.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please continue, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, honourable Members. For the record, Mr. Speaker, I would hope, and believe that this can be done in concert with the appropriate units to reach a fair and equitable agreement for all the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Members' statements, Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to note, Mr. Speaker, that a very much loved priest, Father Duchausscois, will be buried today and that a service will begin in a few minutes, at St. Patrick's Church. My children and my wife, who are all Catholics, would want me to note that this was a man who was much-loved.

(Translation) I am going to speak in French, Mr. Chairman, for a few moments. He was a man who was very gentle, sympathetic and compassionate, and it is important today that all of the M.L.A.s think of him. Our constituents are at St. Patrick's Church for the funeral of Father Duchausscois. Thank you.

Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Pudluk on September 17, in regard to vaccinations for dogs. Canine distemper vaccinations are currently available in all outlying communities in the Northwest Territories.

Following an territorial-wide distemper outbreak in 1987/88, Renewable Resources coordinated an emergency Distemper Vaccination Program in order to protect working sled dogs. A combined rabies/distemper vaccine was subsequently re-introduced in Agriculture Canada's Northern Rabies Control Program. This annual vaccination program is administered in the communities by the R.C.M.P., and Renewable Resources staff continue to assist with these efforts. The vaccine is completely safe, and program personnel are aware of proper vaccination guidelines. Vaccination is not recommended during pregnancy, and when administered correctly, the vaccine has no negative effects on young dogs, or nursing mothers. Thank you.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Todd.

My question is to the Minister responsible for Health. Can the Minister tell me, or tell this House, when we could expect the comprehensive audit of Health to be tabled?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, my department has concluded its consultations with the Auditor General on the comprehensive audit, so it is now between the Auditor General, and the Legislature. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Todd.

I do not believe that answered the question. Can the Minister tell me when he intends to table, or when we can get access to the comprehensive audit on Health?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, I just wanted the honourable Member to know that, although there have been discussions with the Department of Health about the draft comprehensive audit, those discussions are concluded. So it is not my department that is preventing the conclusion of this audit, and its presentation to this Assembly.

To answer the Member's question, I am not responsible for the Auditor General of Canada, and therefore I do not know when he is going to complete that work. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Housing. Last week, the Minister tabled a report in this House entitled Housing Needs Survey, 1992. I read the report, and looked at the many pages of graphs in that report, and I guess I want to know from the Minister what it cost to have this survey done and this report published?

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The cost of the 1992 Housing Survey was $914,000.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe, supplementary.

I thank the Minister for having the answer so readily available. I guess the thing that perturbs me in that report, there is a section called Key Survey Findings, and there are two parts to this. I cannot put my finger on any key recommendations, other than I feel that we have spent $914,000 for surveyors to tell us that there is a shortage of houses, and some of the houses in the north need repair and are inadequate.

My question is why we spend all this money? Are there more reports, are the more details forthcoming, from all the data that was collected from the surveys that were done?

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are all aware of the need for housing, and there are some houses that need repair. This survey is the most comprehensive survey, carried out by any jurisdiction in Canada, and it could not be at a more opportune time.

We now have our housing needs documented. We know how many houses we need, and how many people are inadequately housed. This is the type of information we need to take to the government of Canada, to show our unique situation in the territories.

The survey document, as you may not know, is now going to go into phase four. What I have always said from day one, in this Assembly, before starting this process is, it is very important to include the community in any decisions that we make, and to give some credibility to any survey we make as well.

Out of the $914,000 the Housing Corporation spent, $700,000 of that money was spend on surveyors, the 450 individuals that were hired, in the communities, to conduct the survey. Phase four, the survey document itself, goes back to the community for community consultation, so that we can get some direction from the community leaders, and recommendations on how to solve their housing problems in their community. That is the whole idea of the survey, to document the need, as well as give a document for discussion purposes in the community.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister saying then, that the results of the survey, are the actual surveys themselves? Are these documents tabulated, and when are they going back to the various community associations for their review, and to do further analysis of these?

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The next phase of this process, is to go back to the community consultation process, take this document and present it back to the communities to get their input on how they would see their need being met, and what mixture of housing programs would meet their needs.

Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for Minister of Health. My question is in regard to the decision making process of the department, relating to the board of inquiry under the Medical Profession Act. I would like to indicate, Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to refer to the substance of any matter before that board.

Mr. Speaker, on September 9, I asked a question to the Minister, in regard to the process, and the Minister assured this House that the board of inquiry, under the Medical Profession Act, was an independent procedure, and I am quoting a part of Hansard, which I would describe as peer review, the same way that doctors, pharmacists, and other professionals, discipline themselves. It is not something that is steered by the government, the Minister, or the department.

Mr. Speaker, documents have recently been served, upon individuals, by legal counsel for the Department of Justice, requiring that they attend this board of inquiry. I checked to see if Dr. Covert was in fact in Hay River, and I was advised that he is presently unavailable on holidays until September 28.

Can the Minister advise the House, who directed legal counsel to serve these documents?

Thank you.

I have a problem with the question. I understand the honourable Member is not referring to the substance, but if the board is now duly constituted, then the question that you are asking, I would think, would fall under the sub-judice rule. I will not be able to accept that question, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I may have put forth my question under that context, and it could be indicated as sub-judice, but I believe that I have made my point publicly. Thank you.

This is always a difficult area of interpretation. Just how far does the limitation on questions or discussion, about subjects in front of judicial or quasi-judicial bodies, go? It is one that there is not a distinct dividing line, between what is acceptable, and what is not?

Could I ask Members to try to be as prudent as possible when something is in front of a judicial or quasi-judicial board? Thank you.

Point of privilege, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Point Of Privilege

Mr. Speaker, I do not, by any means, intend to challenge your ruling, and I totally respect that. Maybe you can give me some direction, or assistance, in respect to putting forth my concern in this House. I asked the question back on September 9, in regard to whether the department has bothered to develop standards for this process, in regard to the board of inquiry? At the time, the Minister stated that it was totally independent, away from government. Now actions are being shown otherwise. It seems that I cannot find a process is this House, to determine what is independent, or what can we ask regarding the process of procedures that have been adopted, and decided upon. Thank you.

I think this particular subject is very important, it is one that caused difficulty before, I will allow some debate on this particular subject, and I would like to hear opposing views, on this particular matter. Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable Member is asking a question, I do not think it is easy to determine right now, but I think we are all concerned. Perhaps you as Speaker, or the House, can guide us on what is permissible. Perhaps tomorrow you can let us know what parameters we can operate under. I think that is the only

question that is being asked. I do not think that I can answer that question, either, but I believe it should be given some deliberation so at least we have a guideline. Thank you.

Any other Members who would like to comment on this? I think it is an important issue, and the rules allow the Speaker to listen to arguments from Members. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I understand the honourable Member's question, she is asking about the first step that has been taken under the Medical Profession Act's Board of Inquiry process.

I believe she is asking about the service of notice within two weeks before the inquiry begins, which is really, as I understand it, the first step in the board of inquiry process itself.

Therefore, I would only wish to comment that I think your ruling on the appropriateness of this question, and the application of the sub-judice rule, will be an important precedent. The inquiry has begun with this process, and if questions are allowed about the first step of the process of the actual inquiry in this House, then you may be permitting, by precedent, questions to continue on a daily basis about the inquiry itself.

So I do not wish to argue, but I am sure all Members would agree that this House should not be seen to be a prejudice thing; an independent process that has been set up by an act of this Legislature. So I think it is an important question, and one which may not be urgent, but that it be answered today. Perhaps I might recommend, that it is something that could be considered, and I wish a ruling could be given on due reflection. Thank you.

Would the honourable Member like to comment on this? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, I am trying to approach this request as clearly as possible, so if I could ask for your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I am just trying to get an answer to my question. I do know the House needs accurate information

I would like to quote from September 9 unedited transcript, in reference to my question, in which I asked the Minister of Health about the procedures used by the Medical Board of Inquiries, established under the Medical Profession Act. I would respectfully draw your attention to the fact that my question would not be referring to the substance of the matter before such a body, and I asked him a question which certainly would be within the realm of his knowledge, since he had set up the board of inquiry.

Mr. Speaker, section 26 of the Act provided that a Board of Inquiry under the Medical Profession Act, must with all due dispatch, conduct a hearing to investigate matters referred to it. Can the Minister advise this House whether his department has bothered to develop standards for this process?

At the time, Mr. Speaker, the Minister responded that the board of inquiry was an independent procedure which would prescribe review the same way that doctors and other professionals discipline themselves. It is not something that is geared by the government, the Minister of the department, and Mr. Speaker, the answer the Minister gave to the Member's question is no, the department has not provided direction or standards about the time frame of the board of inquiry, that will be up to the President of the board of inquiry, Doctor Earle Covert, so I was told on September 9.

I found out yesterday that, contrary to what the Minister told me, has happened. I would like to ask the Minister, where is his department's role; why is his department's role being involved in this matter, when he indicated to this House that it is to be totally independent, not steered by government, the Minister of the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Jewell. Any other comments? If not, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I apologize for being out of the House for a moment. I think, Mr. Speaker, the question that was put forward was based on the matter of who was actually issuing, in particular, a summons, and who was responsible for that particular matter.

I want to say, Mr. Speaker, I can agree with you that the matter of the sub-judice convention is a matter that is strictly applied when the matter is dealing with criminal issues. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that this particular matter, this is a civil proceeding, and it has not yet been forwarded for criminal investigation, and criminal proceeding.

I think, as in most cases, I can agree with you, and apply, at least on my part, the rule of the sub-judice convention to those particular matters. But generally speaking, it has been the practice in most jurisdictions, and in fact, in our own House, that we have been quite liberal about the application of the sub-judice convention when the matters are not being dealt with in the civil proceeding. But it is in comment, always on the part of the Members, to be cognizant of the sub-judice convention, and it is only for the Speaker to, what you might say, be involved in a minimal context, because freedom of speech itself is significant, and it is an important factor in the proceedings of this House.

I would not in any way challenge your ability to arbitrate in the final analysis the decision and the rules and the proceedings of this House, but I would urge you, in your own deliberations, to recognize the liberal interpretation normally given to the sub-judice convention, when applying it to the proceedings of Legislature, or House of Commons, because if you apply it too narrowly, then the freedom of speech, and the ability of Members' to speak on issues, I think, can be subject to severe restraint.

I would ask, Mr. Speaker, in your own deliberations, to view the question in the context that it was put, and that was to ask who was actually responsible for issuing the documentation, to actually insure that the proceedings were to take place.

But again, Mr. Speaker, I wanted you to be aware there are no settled practices that have been developed in relation to civil cases, and the Act should be as the convention has been applied in some cases, but not in others, and I ask you, the convention, generally, in civil cases, does not apply until a matter normally has reached the trial stage. So I just wanted you to be aware of that, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Any other comments from Members? Mrs. Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, I will try once more to restate my question.

I would like to request the Minister to clarify, in this House, the department's role ...

Excuse me, Mrs. Jewell. I do not think this is probably the correct time to do it. I am asking for a debate on

the point of privilege. After I make a ruling, then it may be a more appropriate time. Mrs. Jewell.

Just in regards to the debate on the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I guess in looking at the whole basis for the sub-judice convention, is that what happens in this House, it should not jeopardize a person's right to a fair hearing before the courts, and I fully agree with that, and respect it.

I do not believe that there is any way the question that I posed today can be considered that. I would urge you to consider in your deliberation, that in no point in time did I indicate in the preamble of my question, that it was my intention to refer to the substance of any matter before the board.

My question was to refer to the procedures used, and the process used, whereas I was told last week posing this question, or two weeks ago, that this was an independent process, but documents given to me have told me otherwise. This is the type of context that I would also urge you to look at, as we raise this point in the House.

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Are there any other comments on this? If not I want to thank honourable Members for their comments, and for their views. It is a very important point, and I will take some time to deliberate it, and return to the House with my judgement on the point of privilege at the appropriate time. Thank you, everybody.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Government Leader, if she could indicate if Delury and Associates have been given a contract by the Northwest Territories Power Corporation?

Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, not to my knowledge.

Supplementary, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you. Could I ask the honourable Member, the Government Leader, if she could inquire into whether or not a contract has been issued to DeLury and Associates?

Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, yes.

Item 5, Oral questions. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Justice. Legal aid services and programs, play a very important role in overseeing that justice is served to all the residents of the territories, including those of the people in the small communities.

Mr. Speaker, my question is has the government appointed a lawyer for the Kitikmeot region recently? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ningark.

Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, thank you. My supplementary question is, will the Minister make every effort to ensure that this position is filled, and a person is hired for the Kitikmeot region? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Zoe.

Could I ask Members that when they are posing questions during oral questions, that they try not to be argumentative in the preamble to the question. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Speaker, since I received this responsibility, I have had extensive briefing sessions with senior managers in the Department of Health. I want to assure

the honourable Member, that I raised this issue as a concern, and that I want to do something about it.

I have talked with the department about initiating a process which is going to lead to strategic planning in the Department of Health, including the setting of goals and priorities. One of the goals and priorities is going to be to improve the participation of northern residents in the management of the Department of Health.

So I am proceeding in that fashion, Mr. Speaker. I think that what I have to do first is set the priorities of the department, and that issue is going to be one of the priorities. I have taken no other concrete steps, but I do want to assure the Member that it is an area in which I want to make progress, but I do not think -- and I think the Member will agree -- it is not an area in which one can instantly fix the program, there has to be a strategy, and that is what I am working on now.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Transportation. Yesterday I directed a question to the Minister with regard to the condition of the road, and in his response he did say that he would be looking into the matter to see if they could improve the section of road that I was referring to, as soon as he consults with his department, or the highway people.

Mr. Speaker, I do not have any plans to go home this weekend, but it would depend on the response that I get from the Minister.

---Laughter

Mr. Whitford.

I hope that helps you make up your mind, Mr. Gargan, if it keeps up like this, it will be better by the week-end.

Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Legislation has reviewed Bill 32, and wishes to report that Bill 32 is now ready for committee of the whole.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Pursuant to Rule 66(3), Bill 32 is ordered into committee of the whole. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters; tabled document 9-12(2), Strength at Two Levels, tabled document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government, tabled document 62-12(2), Report on Northwest Territories Operations at Expo '92 as at May 31, 1992, tabled document 70-12(2), "The Justice House", Report of the Special Advisory on General Equality, Motion 6, Discussion on Sobriety Clause in Contribution Agreements, committee report 10-12(2), Special Committee on Constitutional Reform Report on the Multilateral Conferences on the Constitution, committee report 17-12(2), Report on the Review of the 1992-93 Main Estimates, committee report 18-12(2), Multilateral Meetings on the Constitution and First Ministers' -Aboriginal Leaders' Conference on the Constitution, Bill 9, An Act to Amend the Insurance Act, Bill 31, An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act, Bill 33, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1992-93, Minister's statement 82-2(2), Update on National Constitutional Reform Negotiations, Mr. Pudluk in the Chair.

I would like to call this committee to order. Yesterday we were concluding the Department of Culture and Communications. What is the committee's wish? Mr. Todd.

I think we should proceed with the budget, Mr. Chairman. We should proceed with M.A.C.A., Municipal and Community Affairs.

Is the committee agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you. We will deal with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Mr. Allooloo, do you have opening remarks?

Opening Remarks, Municipal And Community Affairs

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has provided Municipal Capital and Operations and Maintenance Program to community governments for over 20 years. These programs have evolved, and have been generally successful in meeting the basic needs of municipal governments for infrastructure, administration and services, and program delivery.

For the 1992-93 fiscal year, estimates for operations and maintenance of $59.417 million are proposed. An increase of 1.3 percent over 1991-92. There are 148.8 person years proposed in 1992-93. An increase of four person years from 1991-92.

In May of this year, Cabinet approved the municipal operating and capital assistance policies. These policies are directed at providing programs of assistance to community governments, which promote greater autonomy and accountability.

The department recognizes the local way of getting things done, it encourages self-sufficiency, and the development of strong community governments.

To establish equity in allocation of funding, provisions are made in the policies, based upon criteria standardized for all municipal governments. Municipal governments should contribute to the capital costs of their municipal infrastructure, and should be involved in the planning, management, and implementation, of capital infrastructure projects depending on their willingness and ability.

Within this framework, financial assistance should be sensitive to the financial constraints on both the government of the Northwest Territories and municipal governments. Communities, to reduce costs and increase efficiency, must be sought by the department, and the municipal governments working together.

The municipal operating and capital assistance policies provide a framework for financing municipal governments. The policies provide the municipalities with the level of assurance that they will receive an equitable proportion of the overall funding available.

Consultations with the N.W.T. Association of Municipalities, as well as other local government forums, have indicated there is sufficient support at municipal levels for these policy initiatives.

In the coming year, the department proposed budgetary growth of approximately $3 million, is partially offset by program reduction of $2.2 million. Much of the reduction results from the department finding better, and more affordable ways to using the resources available.

Each program in the department has come under close scrutiny, to ensure value for money is obtained. We are seeking to do better, what we now do well.

For this year, the department budgetary goal is largely dictated towards assisting local governments to maintain municipal buildings, and infrastructure provided with the assistance with this government. As well increased assistance is being provided to municipalities for inflationary growth of six percent, due to the electrical rate increases announced by the Public Utilities Board, April 1, 1992.

Additional expenditures are proposed to quicken the ongoing political development of the settlements, and settlement corporations. In total, an additional $1.032 million is proposed for transfer payments to hamlets to assist in their operational costs. These additional resources will assist hamlets to maintain essential services. Despite these increases, the department continues to hear of the growing pressure on municipal coffers, resulting from new roads, new and expanded public buildings, and associated infrastructure growth in municipalities.

Mr. Chairman, the settlements also require additional financial resources as a result of taking on new responsibilities for construction of infrastructure, for further acquisition of needed equipment, and an additional $112,000 has been proposed in 1992, and 1993, to ensure basic levels of municipal services can be provided in settlements, and in incorporated settlements.

Mr. Chairman, in our budget, we continue to place emphasis on providing accessible recreation facilities for all community residents. Increased funds of $396,000 are proposed for the recreation facilities operating subsidy, to assist in the operation of newly constructed recreation facilities. The department, in anticipated settlement of the Gwich'in land claims, has proposed funding to compensate the town of Inuvik for the selection of municipal owned, and developed land within their municipal boundaries.

The department is proposing $152,000, in anticipated finalization of Gwich'in and T.F.N. claim agreements to administer the new Commissioner's lands, obtained through additional back land transfers from the Government of Canada.

The new resource requirement will be offset from new land revenue associated with the transfer of these Crown lands, estimated at $325,000.

Mr. Chairman, in response to the Expenditure Management Program introduced by the government, the department saved over $1 million dollars in 1991-92. The department has a proven track record of good fiscal management, as evidenced by the 1991-92 savings.

For 1992-93, further reduction measures are necessary. A program reduction of $800,000 is planned for the Water and Sewage Services Subsidy Program. The reduction will be implemented by the continuing effort to lower economic rates for water and sewage services in hamlets, and by reducing excess surpluses in hamlet water/sewer operating accounts.

These measures should realize the savings noted without affecting program delivery to community residents. The department is also proposing to reduce salaries and wages in 1992-93 by $500,000, and four person years. This reduction is being achieved without adversely affecting programs and services to the public, while minimizing the disruptions to staffing levels and moral.

A comprehensive human resources strategy was developed by the department, allowing for these reductions without significantly lowering service levels to our major client/community governments. There will be more sharing, and better integration, of work loads within the department.

Mr. Chairman, additional reductions of $446,000 in 1992-93 are proposed for other operational maintenance. This reduction will, no doubt, have some effect on the department's ability to carry out its responsibility, but we are committed to minimize the impact of this cut in funds by economizing, and good planning.

The Sport North Federation contribution has also been reduced by $250,000. Travel and operational areas in the federation will be affected. The department, and Sport North are consulting on a continuing basis to explore creative options for the Federation to continue to finance a high level of services to the northern sport community.

The Homeowner's Property Tax Rebate Program has been reduced by $245,000 in 1992-93. This program encourages home ownership in the N.W.T. This reduction has reduced the maximum allowable property tax rebate in the municipal taxation areas by 25 percent, from $400 to $300, and from $100 to $75 per homeowner in the general taxation areas.

Finally, the Recreation Salary Subsidy Program has not received additional funds to allow current subsidy levels be maintained for recreation leaders in 1992-93. This reduction was a choice to fund all current positions under the program, and has meant a lowering of salary subsidy to all 73 positions funded.

In a period of severe financial restraint, and within the resources available, I am providing funding which will allow for greater local priority setting. I recognize our partnership role, as the bulk of my department's funding is for direct community programs and services. Community governments know this, and I am confident they will ensure there is good value for the public's money.

Mr. Chairman, I will be happy to answer any questions, and I would like to request that I be allowed to bring in witnesses.

Thank you. I wonder if the chairman of the finance committee would like to make an opening remark, before we call the witnesses? Member for Thebacha.

Comments By The Standing Committee On Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance, I would like to propose the following motions.

In respect to some of the concerns, the Standing Committee on Finance felt that at a time when we are supposed to be preparing local governments for devolution, the committee is concerned with reductions in duty travel and training, which will adversely effect community support. If this is allowed to persist, decisions will continue to be made at the centre, in conflict with the Assembly's decentralization objectives.

The departments have to reduce the budget, and it should not be at the expense of the communities. It should be from headquarters's administration. I believe it is the concern of many Members of the Assembly.

So Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance, I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs restore all funding for duty travel and training, which will adversely affect support and direction to the communities. Further, that the committee recommends more emphasis be placed on upgrading the community and regional management, and administration skills and systems in preparation for devolution. Thank you.

Thank you. Motion is in order. To the motion. Are you ready for the question?

Question.

Question has been called. All of those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Are there any further comments? Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just as the territorial government is struggling with drastic changes, so are the local governments. The communities are going through different levels of development and devolution and, hence, need some direction and support from the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs in order to successfully deal with these changes. Lessons learned in effective managing changes in the territorial government, should be of a benefit to the community.

So therefore, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance, I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs include an objective in the 1993/94 Main Estimates to implement a training and support program for hamlet settlement councils, and municipalities where applicable, to increase knowledge, change attitudes and behaviours, empower municipalities and their staff, structure interaction, priorize, set time lines and otherwise community involvement in reshaping northern government.

Motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will support the motion, but I just want to make a couple of comments. In lieu of responsibilities of the department in dealing with municipalities, tax-based municipalities are empowered to deal with many of these items that are in this motion. The provisions to provide support, I agree with, not necessarily to direct municipalities, but tax-based municipalities, in which to do things. I just wanted to make that comment.

Also we have to recognize the initiatives that are coming out of the community transfer initiatives as expounded by this government. So taking those into consideration, I will be supporting this motion.

Thank you. To the motion. Are you ready for the question?

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Are there any further comments? Member from Thebacha.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in regard to an integration of community problems, the current departmental approach to program delivery does not seem to be working well. There is a need for an integrated and coordinated approach to dealing with community problems. The government has indicated that they were going to do this, however, there is little evidence of it taking place.

Transfer of responsibilities to the communities should encourage dealing with the strengths, the weaknesses, the opportunities and threats in a community as a whole. For example, we know we have a serious problem in education that is being affected by the social and economic circumstances. The solution has to involve all departments, local governments and the public working together and sharing resources.

With this, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask my colleague, Mr. Nerysoo, from Mackenzie Delta, to put forth the motion on behalf of the committee. Thank you.