Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Minister's Statement 3-12(4), Sessional Statement; Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1994-95; Committee Report 1-12(4), Talking and Working Together; and, Committee Report 3-12(4), Report on Tabled Document 145-12(3): Legislative Action Paper on the Workers' Compensation Act, with Mr. Whitford in the chair.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We'd like to follow the same procedure as we did yesterday with regard to taking some time to address the Sessional Statement, followed by Bill 1, then the Special Committee on Health and Social Service's final report. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I'll give you an example. In terms of attempting to put a more consolidated approach to the delivery of services, what we've been able to do is decentralize as well. I know that when we were recently up in Inuvik, the residents of Inuvik had nothing but extreme praise and appreciation for the opportunity to be employed and have that gainful employment as a result of that opportunity. And I know that in Rankin Inlet, there's a similar feeling that it has given a boost to the community and it's allowing people to be trained for jobs that would otherwise be in Yellowknife. These are some of the measurements.

Certainly when I was up in Inuvik with Mr. Koe for the official opening, I talked to some of the employees who were there. I certainly felt that these were residents of the north, most of them born in the north, and others were long-term northerners. Certainly I could see the involvement they had and the employment opportunity was very much appreciated by the community.

I believe in Fort Simpson, it's a similar feeling in the community. We had a great number of people who put forth their names for job opportunities in that decentralization. As a result, jobs were freed up because of decentralization in the community. And I guess that's about how we measure it. It puts a thread through the opportunities of allowing more to be done in areas other than Yellowknife. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, that is one of the measures and I suppose it's the one that's highlighted. We have done some consolidation that helped, certainly trying to identify much more quickly where the functions are within government. So in terms of the cost- effectiveness -- if that's the question -- I will turn that over to the Minister of Finance to try to be a little more detailed in that area. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there was a major restructuring of the government, as everybody knows. We are starting to see some of those organizational advantages. Just to briefly explain, Mr. Chairman, all the expenditure management control functions have been integrated. That's been assigned to the Financial Management Board and that means that all Cabinet Members are involved in the decisions in that particular area.

All the revenue generation, the external financial arrangements have been consolidated in the Department of Finance. We have clear cut lines between what is internal, what is expenditure, management control and where we generate revenue from. Whether it's from the federal government or by taxation. Having that clean split, we believe, is going to pay off.

Collective bargaining, labour relations and human resource planning are also under the FMB secretariat and hence all Members of Cabinet are involved in the decisions made in those areas. And, of course, staffing remains at arms-length from that particular process and remains with the Department of Personnel.

During the reorganization, an audit and evaluation department or division was set within the Financial Management Board secretariat and that audit and evaluation team will be the people who now start to derive information for us and begin to ascertain whether we are spending dollars well and whether programs are working well. And so, downstream, because of this new reorganization, we expect good management information from audit and evaluation.

The Financial Management Board -- and I think you heard Mr. Zoe refer to it many times in his report that he gave -- has started an informatics strategy. That was at the suggestion of the Standing Committee on Finance, Mr. Chairman, and we recognize that we do not have all the information at our fingertips that we require. Many times when this House asks questions, it takes us days and days and sometimes weeks to put together information, whether it's on people, financial matters or statistics. We do not have that ability to draw that information out in a timely fashion. So, some of the problems that we are experiencing, at the present time, we hope will be resolved once we've done the informatics strategy. We will be able to draw for ourselves and for this House, information from the government system, in a timely fashion.

So, I don't expect to be able to see millions of dollars in savings immediately, but we are setting down the building blocks for an organization that will become more conscious of the expenditure of dollars, of the need to deliver programs in a timely fashion and of the fact that, as dwindling public resources come upon us and cutbacks are imminent from the federal government, that we will indeed be able to be more efficient. So, the efficiency part, we believe, is starting to kick in right now, Mr. Chairman. The fruits will be born down the road. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I guess I was answering only one part of the Member's inquiry -- how do you measure success and appreciation. Yes, I believe that when we entered into consolidation and some of decentralization, we knew that we couldn't do the decentralization unless we did some consolidation. That was supposed to work hand in hand. If we didn't streamline and consolidate, we wouldn't have the resources to redirect.

We did recognize at the front end that there would be costs, but in the long-term, it would balance out because of the ability for us to get our act in place here. I think one of the things that is questioned a lot is what is the role of the central agency, how does that work? I'm an advocate of a strong central agency. Some things have to exist here. But, I think if we can show the Northwest Territories what that role is and where they can take part, they will see it is long-term planning.

I know that sometimes it is felt that we plan in the period of a four year term. But, I think the outcome of consolidation and putting things where they should be will allow those cost savings to be transmitted to decentralization. If we didn't have a response on one end, then it would be difficult to have the support in terms of the central part of our planning.

I think I probably only answered one part of your question. I hope that clears it up. I do recognize that at the front end, there were going to be heavier costs to start decentralization, but because it was done in conjunction with consolidation then in the long-term it will balance out. Thank you.

The Minister of Finance will take this question.

Mr. Chairman, those things will be completed. I can tell the Member that in December 1991, there were 6,133 employees in the public service. As of October 1993, there are 5,806 employees in the public service. There were some cutbacks and they were taken care of by the workforce adjustment program. Some, we believe, are a result of efficiency. Some are the result of privatization. But, we do have less people in the public service now than we did then.