With regard to that again, just for clarification, where violence is against a woman or child does that take away from the impartiality of the courts -- by targeting specific groups?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure I understand Mr. Gargan's point. The spousal assault policy of the federal Department of Justice is phrased in gender neutral language. In other words, regardless of who the victim is, whether the victim is male or female or the victim is a child, the RCMP must lay charges if they have grounds to believe an offence has been committed. That policy is supposed to be gender neutral. If a man assaults a woman or a woman assaults a man, technically and theoretically it should not make any difference in terms of the officers forming the belief that an offence has been committed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

So even in our own reports, we should be referring to violence against all people, as opposed to specific groups?

I think the issue of whether one would want to target a program towards women, men or all people is a political issue. It isn't a legal matter. The current federal government policy on the issue of violence is gender neutral, but other people may have more to say about the issue of violence in our society than I do from a legal perspective.

You said that the policy is gender neutral, "While recognizing in most cases of spousal violence the man is the perpetrator. The policy seeks to ensure that full investigation and prosecution of spousal violence...It also seek to improve protection and assistance to victims..." When you refer to that is it because in all cases the perpetrator is always a man? Or is it because only charges are laid against men as opposed to women? Violence is caused against men also. It is reported and no charges are ever laid.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that there are two very different issues here. The first issue is the gender breakdown of charges that are made in society and I think most people would agree that all of the statistics indicate that the vast majority of charges involve violence by a man against a woman. That's the first issue. The second issue is the reason for the disproportionate number of charges against men is because RCMP officers may discount violence that's committed by women towards men. I don't know the answer to that. I'm not sure if anybody knows the answer to that but there perhaps could be an argument that RCMP officers would be less likely to charge a woman with assaulting a man than vice versa. I have to say quite clearly, for the record, that I don't have any statistics on that particular theory.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. If it would be acceptable to the committee, maybe they could change their preamble to say, "to end all violence against all persons," or "everyone." I have no problem with the recommendation.

Mr. Chairman, last Wednesday, Stats Canada came out with a report on violence against women. They interviewed approximately 12,300 women over the age of 18, but they excluded the Yukon and the Northwest Territories in the interviews. Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with the motion but I would also hope that when such publications come out that we look at them objectively. I'm afraid that if something like this is adopted then naturally the first reaction is that the men are the ones who are causing all the violence. I hope that is not going to be the intent of the publication. Just like the courts, this Assembly should be neutral and say that violence against all persons is unacceptable. I hate being slapped, you know.

The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that in my own background, my own experience is that I have been violated quite a bit by women who were placed in trust. I won't bring it up and a lot of people choose not to bring up these things. We talk about the healing process and when we do that, when we develop those areas, you also have to look at disclosure. Alkali Lake is a good example of that. When the healing process happened, charges were laid and a lot of people went to jail. I suppose that's all part of the process. Once you sober up, you could very well end up being alienated within your own community. It happened in Alkali Lake. When the healing process happened, people became enemies.

Question.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, current policies against domestic violence do not provide enough protection for women and other victims. Treatment, counselling, mediation, conciliation and follow-up services are also required. Relocation, housing and other programs must be reviewed to ensure that victims are not placed at a disadvantage in the community through no fault of their own. In particular, housing policies should be changed so that leases in family situations require two signatures in order to protect both parties. Leases could also contain a provision that the offender should be the one to leave the home following an act of violence.