Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, this recommendation was also brought in by the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commission's report with regard to reviews. It is also one of the issues that was discussed by the Public Accounts committee. The point is that those reviews are going on right now. Perhaps this government should recognize regional governments and that they develop those boards based on, not the different situations at the community level, but at the regional level.

The other thing is most regional boards have superintendents or doctors as the chairmen of those boards. I don't know why that is. I think all the boards are at different stages. I think if there had been a statement suggesting that all the boards will administer their own finances, hire their own staff -- accountants, doctors, nurses, et cetera -- I would have preferred that. Whether or not those people serve as chairpersons of those different boards, the expertise will be there. The regions can operate just as effectively with a doctor sitting on the side advising them. I don't have problems with the report itself, but I believe the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commission's report, recognizes there are too many differences in the way boards are functioning. Some boards have to give some authority for hiring, some don't. Some boards have advisory capacity with budgets, others don't. All of these different situations exist.

The way the recommendation is drafted suggests that as soon as they are ready...And it is not going to be the regions that determine that, it will be the government that will determine that. If they are ready to take on responsibility for finances, then they will be given that. Not all of the regions will be consistent. The Deh Cho doesn't have a board. That hasn't affected my health one bit. The point I am trying to make is that those boards should be getting more autonomy. That is the direction this government should be going in.

This recommendation suggests all of these different boards are at different levels. Let them earn their autonomy, instead of me making a political statement saying that all of those boards should be the same. They should have responsibility. They should have autonomy. That is the direction we should be in by the year 1995. But a vague statement like this suggests that by 1997 we won't have anything.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Koe.

I would like to give some clarification on behalf of the committee on Mr. Gargan's comments. Most of the boards don't have government officers as chairmen. Inuvik, Baffin, Fort Smith, Keewatin and Yellowknife hospital boards all have private individuals as chairpersons. Most of the committees are made up of private individuals from the region or from the communities. They may have advisors and whoever have hospitals, will have doctors on staff.

Sam is right. Each board is at a different level of development. Several regional boards have been in existence longer and have more expertise, knowledge and responsibilities than newer boards. Some of the boards are boards of management of specific hospitals and others are regional boards, which may or may not have a hospital in their region. All of them have health centres.

The other point I would like to make is in our interim report -- that is why it is not in this final report -- we made a motion to establish a regional health board in the Deh Cho region. The Minister of Health can clarify this. I just wanted to make those comments of clarification, Mr. Chairman. Mahsi.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, from the debate that's occurring in the House at the present time, I think we're beginning to see the complexity of the situation. Mr. Koe asked me a question earlier this week

with regard to the MOUs and I said words to the effect that the situation differs across the Northwest Territories.

I think that is what is being reflected by the committee and their recommendation number three. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Zoe is also correct that we are treating boards differently and there has to be some ground rules, some memorandum of understanding. One of the reasons why I want to meet with the board chairs, before we put this memorandum of understanding to bed, is that there may be a standardized MOU between the GNWT Department of Health and the boards. We also have to recognize that some of those boards may want to have a little different twist on things, depending on their location, needs, expertise, and how much responsibility they wish to take on.

I just want the committee to know that I hear their concerns. I know the problem that is out there and I think you can rest assured that we will ultimately resolve this problem by direct negotiation between the boards and myself, taking into consideration the differences across the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In my presentation to the board in Hay River on January 28, one thing I mentioned was the lack of affirmative action done by the Department of Social Services. And also the lack of response by the government with regard to the traditional knowledge working group. This hasn't changed since 1989. They still don't have aboriginal people at the senior level of government in the Department of Health. I think Social Services is a bit better. Even at the district level, it is the same thing.

So it would be quite difficult to implement something like this if the commitment is not there for them to do it. The statement itself, giving the authority to the regions to take on whatever responsibilities they wish, that authority would be given to them only if the government is willing to do so. There is no statement of principle, except that as they are ready to take on those responsibilities, then the government will give the authority to them.

We cannot say one year from now that our recommendation was that the board should take on those specific authorities, hiring or finances, et cetera. The government should be able to say if the principle is there...I could see the region saying we are trying to reach that goal, but we are at this level right now. But if we don't have any goals or objectives at the end, then the directions will not be clear. That is my point, Mr. Chairman. There is nothing here except that we allow people to determine that for themselves. But if we don't have a goal or objective that will be determined by what level we are at, then the communities don't know what levels they are at because there is no measurement. That is my whole point. We don't have a way of measuring whether or not the government...sure, we asked them to do a report by the fall of 1994. But how do you determine that? There is nothing to measure it by, except to say that the government have given them limited autonomy on their finances. But due to the Public Services Act, we cannot give him authority for hiring. We will meet a lot of those kinds of obstacles if we don't make a political statement of intent.

Thank you. The time is now 5:30 pm. According to the sitting hours set by the Speaker, I will rise from committee of the whole until 7:00 pm.

---DINNER BREAK

I'll call this committee back to order. We're still on the Special Committee on Health and

Social Services. We're on page 24. There was a motion on the floor before we left. To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. According to our rules, the mover can not amend his or her own motion. Mr. Zoe.

Taking out the "and able to assume those duties." Is that correct, Mr. Zoe?

Committee Motion To Amend Recommendation 3, Carried

Thank you. To the amendment. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to this amendment of deleting the words "as they are willing and able to assume those duties" and basically stating greater authority should be transferred to regional health boards, this is a pretty broad recommendation. They should be transferred to regional health boards when, why, and what not. I guess the concern that I have, Mr. Chairman, is that if we allow this amendment to go through just stating greater authority should be transferred to regional health boards, I'm somewhat concerned that the authority will be transferred and possibly the regional health boards may not be prepared or be able to take on the responsibility. I just find that when we allow these words in, "as they are willing and prepared to assume those duties," that is when the transfer should take place. There are many boards, for example, the Kitikmeot board, who did not want as much responsibility as the Keewatin board, and that was told to the committee. That's why this recommendation is the way it is; stating that these authorities should be transferred when the boards are wanting the transfer, how much of the authority they want, when they should be able to take on these extra duties. I don't find it appropriate that this responsibility should be imposed on them as this amendment is recommending. Therefore, I am going to vote against the amendment that was posed by my colleague. Thank you.

Thank you. To the amendment. Mr. Gargan.