Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Mr Chairman, when I did a presentation to the board, one of the things that I questioned was why we assume automatically that the ideas and values which evolve in Europe are better than the traditional Dene ways. Again, this is a good example of this, where we assume that because health and social services are there, that the traditional healing methods must be not only recognized but must be able to fit into the existing system. I disagree with that mythology. I think what we need here is that it should be recognized and funded, but it doesn't have to be incorporated into the existing system. I think communities that have people who are knowledgable in those areas should be encouraged to go to them if there are certain illnesses that they would prefer going to a traditional healer for, as opposed to their local nursing station. Again, just like the aboriginal cultural inclusion programs, we go to the nursing stations to see a traditional healer. I disagree with that principle.

Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, somewhere along the line, people have to recognize it is their method of healing people and it is up to other people to accept that.

To the motion. Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it appears that the Member believes this method should be recognized and that it should be funded by government, but not incorporated into the health and social services system. He states that it should be left alone, but the government should pay for it. That is my understanding of the Member's comments. I would like to speak to this motion.

Traditional healing methods should be recognized and funded by the government. Currently they are not recognized by the government and, since they are not recognized, there is no consideration for payments for this method. However, to state that the government shouldn't incorporate it into the system, I don't believe is a way to address it. I believe this government is a government for the people and the aboriginal people have dealt with different ways of traditional healing methods. I believe that it's time this government recognizes that and pays for it.

I don't believe the clinical approach they take to healing methods is the way that we should just graciously accept because it has been imposed on native people. I certainly agree fully with this motion and feel it is time this government be reflective of some of the native traditions and values. We need to start incorporating them into this system that is supposed to be our system. Therefore, I fully support this motion, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It seems to me everything revolves around this word "incorporate." If you want the government to be involved in anything, it seems to me you have to find some relationship that exists. Perhaps it really boils down to something as simple as finding a substitute word for "incorporate" because I don't think it has anything to do with whether you go to the nursing station. It may be as simple as trying to come up with a schedule of fees. Once you have done that, and it is going to be funded through a policy of the government, it will be just like any other professional person hanging up a sign, and people may do it in a different, more quiet way in their community. At least find some way of recognizing the important role that people play, but not to be worried about the word "incorporate" meaning something is going to be hidden by the government. People should be treated with respect for the service they offer and they should be paid for their services. If that means incorporating, I am in favour of it. If that is what we mean by incorporating, I am in favour of the motion. Thank you.

To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

The aboriginal people who work in those areas don't view this as dollars and cents. If a person prefers to have certain plants boiled for them because they have a sore throat or rat roots for their cold, then those are things you cannot store in a nursing station. You have to go out on the land. It is a different method. It is not something you pick off the shelf.

Another thing is you pay homage to those people who have helped you and you don't do that with cash. You do that with other than cash. It could mean tobacco, meat, et cetera. To have it blend into the existing health and social services system doesn't make sense. I think Mr. Arngna'naaq made a statement on that this morning. There is a difference. That is how we have to look at it. Let's not accept a motion that says the culture must fit into this system, as opposed to the system trying to fit into the culture. That is my whole point.

(Microphone turned off)...make a motion and suggest traditional healing methods must be recognized.

Mr. Gargan, are you making an amendment to this motion?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Would you read your amendment, please.

Mr. Chairman, whether the government wants to fund it or not, I think research should be done. But for traditional healers to be funded by the government doesn't make any sense to the aboriginal culture. If they were recognized in the communities as such and there was a requirement to do research in that area, I would certainly support something like that. But at this point in time, just recognizing them would be a step in the right direction. So I am just suggesting that, "incorporate into our system of health and social services" should be deleted.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. It still isn't clear to me if you are making an amendment to this motion.

He is trying to, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion To Amend Recommendation 6, Defeated

Mr. Chairman, I move that "by government and incorporate into our system of health and social services" be deleted and that the recommendation will say, "Traditional healing methods must be recognized."

Thank you. To the amendment. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I understand what Mr. Gargan is getting at, but I have to respectfully advise him that money does, whether we like it or not, matter and even make the world go round. We heard in Fort Simpson and in Fort Providence from people who wanted to use traditional healers. We were given the name of a healer who was known to be effective in Alberta. In some cases, the local nurses wanted to help, but without being recognized and funded by a medicare system, staff had to go to real convolutions to cover the expenses of travel, for example. We found that by going through great bureaucratic adventures, people who didn't have the means were able to be helped to get to this traditional healer in Alberta. But, it was done in spite of the system and not because of the system. I think our recommendation will deal with simple question like how you transport a patient who wants that help to get to a location. Those are real costs that many people simply do not have the means to meet themselves.

With the greatest respect to Mr. Gargan, I think if we are going to accept our commitment to traditional healing methods, we have to back it up with real money, just like we do with the clinical medical model approaches. I think we have to go further and acknowledge the need for money. I will not support the amendment.

To the amendment. Mr. Antoine.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak on the motion and the amendment. I am glad to see such a recommendation coming out. In my part of the world we sometimes use traditional healers to help some of our people who are not well. We've been doing that since time immemorial and we continue to do it today. There are different healers in the north, in Canada and in the states who are renowned for helping people out in different areas.

I'm glad that they'll be recognized. In terms of being funded by government, I think we have to have some funding for that area. We may need to bring someone in from outside of the community and it costs, nowadays, to travel. A lot of them don't ask for very much. They might just ask for travel funds, for gas or maybe for a plane fare. Because of that, I think we need to have "funded by the government" in there.

We may have to send somebody out to see people down south and that costs money. It also costs money to bring them in. We've done that a number of times in my area, where we were fortunate enough to know people who could come and help us out sometimes. It costs us money nowadays. Because of that, along with recognizing the healing methods of aboriginal people, we should also recommend that this practice be funded by the government.

As for incorporation into our system of health and social services, I don't have any problem with it. Maybe the health and social services system could help out sometimes when we need to arrange for somebody to come in or send somebody out. In this way, we need to have a system in place to identify how this healing process could be funded. I see a reason for having it incorporated into the system.

I know what my honourable colleague, Mr. Gargan, is saying about traditional healers. They don't expect to get paid cash. They have never done that and I don't think they would start. The idea is they have the gift from the Creator to help people and this is how they see things. They are more like spiritual people. They don't ask for compensation. As long as you get them from one place to another -- which costs us money -- that's all they are concerned about.

I am speaking in favour of this recommendation. Mahsi.

Thank you. To the amendment. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. To the amendment. Mr. Arngna'naaq.